Started NC today

[Ripped Heart]

It's been a very rough couple of weeks of the roller coaster but this morning decided to get off.

So, Christmas Day went ok for the first part, then there was the issue around her daughter right after. Seems the further I was away emotionally, the closer she became, if I opened my heart to let her back in, the more emotionally cold and distant she was.

In the end I left yesterday and heard from her shortly after she finished work. Sent her a text last night to see how she was and if everything was ok, got nothing. Called her this morning, got nothing. Went to email her and that's when I discovered she hadn't logged out of her email from when she used my laptop the other day.

Seems there have been several replacements since almost the beginning of our r/s. I think what really hurts the most is feeling very used right now. To one, she called "our" holiday a girlie vacation. She also mentioned about being down near him last month and that it was her visiting friends (it was my very sick grandmother we went to visit) and that she is planning to go again in the near future. To me, she did tell me she wanted to go back again but on the premise of visiting my grandmother.

Another one was asking when they are going to have their 2nd date. Another was asking her about moving down close to him.

Maybe I'm in the wrong for reading her messages but once you see a "hey babe - really miss you" you can't help but look.

Also discovered that she also has 2 active dating profiles.

So in the interests of my own sanity, I blocked her on Facebook and right now just feel sick to my core. I did consider emailing these people back but that wouldn't be right. Likewise, if she does get in touch, I honestly don't know how to handle it.

[Ripped Heart]

Got a text earlier to say she would call tonight. Didnt respond, just blocked the phone.

As the day has gone on, more thing have unravelled. Seems identical treatment to previous boyfriend. Seems she was searching for his replacement when she accidentally emailed him a response for someone else. He confronted her on it and she blocked him out completely.

I came along just a couple of weeks later and now going through same pattern too.

She had major money problems before I came along and it seems ex tried to help her out of them, just as I've done too.

Really not sure how to handle talking to her if she does get in contact.

[123Phoebe]

Aw wow, Ripped Heart    That's some super heavy stuff you're dealing with.  I am so sorry to hear you're experiencing this kind of crap.

How do you feel about being honest with her?  What would you say?

I'm thinking about you!   

[Ripped Heart]

Thanks Phoebe,

Right now I just feel so many emotions I wouldn't know which one would surface so that's why I've gone NC right now to give myself time to process.

A few weeks ago when I caught her out in her lies, I was honest with her about how I felt and all of it was ignored. It made no difference to her how I felt but instead, a day later she was acting like nothing had happened.

I've thought through most of the day about what I would say but then I start to feel angry about being strung along and know that would come out. The last thing I want is to show her any anger, I haven't through the entire relationship but in the same respect there has to be boundaries in place.

I figured I would leave it for today and see how I feel tomorrow.

[Skip]

A few weeks ago when I caught her out in her lies, I was honest with her about how I felt and all of it was ignored. It made no difference to her how I felt but instead, a day later she was acting like nothing had happened.

That's hard.

[downwhim]

Stay strong, stay N/C and clear your mind from this mess. Step away and look objectively at what your dealing with. 

[Ripped Heart]

Many thanks Downwhim and Skip, it is really hard. Right now I don't want out of the r/s but I have to take a step back for my own health.

NC lasted all of 24 hours before the game of push pull. First she decided that it was over, then I asked about sorting something out so I could drop her things off and pick up my keys, then she didn't know what she wanted. So I suggested a break right now for both of us to make that decision with better head space. Then she didn't know again.

Finally today, got a text from her like nothing has even happened asking for my advice in helping a friend at work. Best possible timing though because text came right in the middle of my Therapy appointment so was in the right place for it and just broke down in tears. Was the validation I needed today.

[Waddams]

Ripped Heart, I'm sorry for what you're going through.

I will say you're lucky enough to have seen the way things really were before you got farther along with her.  She has (inadvertently maybe) shown you who she really is, but she still has done it now.  I know it hurts but she is not the person you thought she was.

NC is best, I think you know that, but I think it also helps a lot to pair NC with more action on your part to get out and take care of yourself.  It's just not action that has anything to do with her.  It's just action for you.  Basically, go to the gym, stop to have a nice dinner at the bar on your own at Outback (or some place nice), etc.  Make some extra time to see a few friends.  Join a club that meets weekly (mine is through church).  Be involved in something extracurricular and social so you're not sitting around ruminating about her.

I think a lot of us backslide and get sucked back in because after a breakup, we sit around and do nothing.  Then when they initiate contact again, we jump at it because we're sitting around feeling bad about it all.  If you get out and exercise some self-care, that will help build you up and keep you feeling good, and help you remember that the toxicity she brings to your life is not good for you.

Again, I'm sorry for what you are going through, but understand you have the power to make it better for yourself if you choose to do it.

[Mutt]

NC lasted all of 24 hours before the game of push pull. First she decided that it was over, then I asked about sorting something out so I could drop her things off and pick up my keys, then she didn't know what she wanted. So I suggested a break right now for both of us to make that decision with better head space. Then she didn't know again.

Finally today, got a text from her like nothing has even happened asking for my advice in helping a friend at work.

It's frustrating Ripped Heart. I'm sorry to hear you're going through this.

[Ripped Heart]

Many thanks Mutt and also to you too Waddams.

Had another text from her tonight to say she was buying cat food? Thought it was a bit random so messaged her back to see if it was ok to talk.

Got the full breakdown on the phone, for 2 days no gas or electricity, she has been in bed all day, feels terrible about herself right now etc... .

Tried to validate her feelings but she has no idea where they keep coming from. Asked if they came and went and she said they do. She is really pained right now because one minute she loves me, the next she hates me and has no idea why. I asked her whether this pattern repeats through all her relationships, it does but this has been by far the most difficult for her. She said everyone else it was easy to hate them because they were either aggressive or violent and would react that way to her outbursts. It's why right now, she is walking a very black/white line and it's tearing her apart.

I asked her if she trusted me and she said she trusts me with her life and then we opened up pandoras box. She doesn't want to break up but her feelings right now are telling her the complete opposite yet she doesn't know why or where. She says it's like an inner voice. I asked if it was because she feared if she let me in that I would abandon her.

I asked her if she had ever thought about seeing someone like I am to explore those feelings because it can't be nice feeling that way but not understanding why. She then got really upset because she says she has been horrible to me these past few weeks and yet here I still am. Told her that I made her a promise that I would care and stand by her no matter what and that I wanted her to have a glimpse what unconditional love is.

Touched on some of the things that have been really hurtful over the past couple of weeks, glanced on the infidelity so she knows that I know but that despite all of that, I'm still right there beside her. Didn't tell her I know about her applying for a job as an adult line operator, that's something I want to try and get her to open up about given her current financial situation. Did touch upon the explicit photos she has been sending out to people these past couple of weeks by way of she sent me some earlier in the year and then rang in tears asking me to delete the folder without opening it. Was to late as I'd already seen them but I did as I was told and never let on I had seen them.

Then one night she is over at mine and I have a Smart TV. She was sat flicking through her explicit pics on her tablet when she pressed something and they appeared in full glorious 60" HD. She locked herself in the bedroom for almost 2 hours out of shame. I wanted her to know I'm not easily shamed and that I like that racy and raunchy side of her just as I like all of who she is.

I didn't play anything down to her, didn't molly-coddle either. I finished by saying there was a way through all of this, it's not easy and she has to be the one to want to do this. But that I will be right there every step of the way to catch her if she starts to slide and that all I ask from this moment onwards is honesty and trust. Even in her darkest thoughts that she knows I'm right there beside her, holding her hand and this isn't a journey she faces alone.

However, if it's not a journey she is prepared to take or any games start to appear, there is nothing more I can do. Sent her a little inscription "Sometimes we have to let go of others, not because we don't care but because we do" I've said there will be times she slides and no matter how dark those slides may be, I just want some honesty from here on out. It's time to establish my boundaries.

Waddams - I kind of have an established routine anyway, meet up with friends last and first Friday of the month. Have a personal trainer 2 days a week and see my therapist once a week. However, this time of year everyone takes time off so leaves more time to procrastinate, especially since also on leave from work until next week too.

So what do you think guys, too much? Too little? Too soft? Too hard?

[Mutt]

She said everyone else it was easy to hate them because they were either aggressive or violent and would react that way to her outbursts.

That's sad to hear.

I asked her if she trusted me and she said she trusts me with her life and then we opened up pandoras box.

A pwBPD have difficulties trusting themselves and others.

She locked herself in the bedroom for almost 2 hours out of shame.

It's a possibility and not a certainty. She lacks impulse control, consequences of ones actions. She asked you to delete a dossier of pictures. She may feel uncomfortable, exposed, shame, guilt, conflict regret with her choice for supplementary income. It's an emotional based disorder, feelings are two thousand fold.

It must be difficult for her and infidelity is difficult to deal with.

It sounds like you laid it out. I don't think it was too soft or hard. You had a heart to heart.

Sometimes we need to let go and you'll support her if she takes that step. A difficult choice only she can make, facing what she fears most her core wound of abandonment.

I think you handled it well Ripped Heart.

[patientandclear]

Not too hard, not too soft. But maybe not clear. What specifically are you asking her to do or not do? Maybe you told her clearly and that just doesn't come through in the post?

[Ripped Heart]

PC - As always, words of wisdom 

I re-read my post and you are right about it not being too clear.

I addressed some of the hurtful issues, without sugar coating but also without too much pressure. Asked her from now on to attempt to communicate and tried to address any fears she may have around that such as fearing I will walk away if she has something she thinks I might not like to hear.

She has expressed a lot of her feelings and that right now she is in a very dark place simply because she is in a hole she can't get herself out of, financially and emotionally. I have offered to help and support her out of the hole but that she will be the one to do that, I will just be right beside her to catch if she slips. Whether that be just listening to how it makes her feel, offer direction, support and encouragement when she needs it or putting together a debt plan for her and supporting her to keep on track.

In terms of the pain she is feeling, I've talked to her about going to speak to someone to help try understand those feelings and where they come from. She actually started DBT and CT a couple of years ago but life took over and she gave up. Offered to attend with her if she is afraid of going alone or taking care of things in the house so she doesn't have that to deal with when she gets home.

In terms of for myself, I've asked for trust and some open communication so I can help understand her. In terms of my own boundaries, that if she starts to play games, I have to reassess my position in the r/s but that I understand there may be times she slides, just want a bit of communication and understanding around that.

That's the gist of it

[patientandclear]

Hi again.  So ... .A couple of thoughts.

One: I have tried asking the man I loved w/BPD to try to trust me.  Doesn't work.  Or at least it slid off him as if off of Teflon.  Being told by us that they can trust us just don't cut it when the mistrust comes from a place far deeper and more instinctual.  To set aside those powerful fight or flight feelings of being threatened with impending hurt requires very specific tools.  Us exhorting them just isn't nearly enough.

So while I don't think it does damage, I think this is an area where just explaining your hope or need for her to trust you shouldn't be expected to have much impact.

Second: I worry about this --

Told her that I made her a promise that I would care and stand by her no matter what and that I wanted her to have a glimpse what unconditional love is.

Unconditional love promises scare me.  That literally means "you can do anything whatsoever to me and I will still be here."  I don't think that is a healthy promise to make to anyone.  It begs to be tested and it begs to be abused.  And it should not be true (in my opinion).  There are things people can do to other people that should lead to voluntary relationships (like those of romantic partners) changing or ending.  This is essentially conveying that you have no boundaries and no limits.  That doesn't do her any favors.  It is highly likely that you will find, at some point, that you DO have a limit.  And it will feel better explaining where that is if you don't feel you are going back on this sort of promise when you need to do so.

Finally, my understanding is that pwBPD do best with extremely concrete expectations and boundaries, where they don't need to guess at what they need to do to meet your requirements.  Having to guess creates fear and uncertainty.  And sometimes too, what are meant to be warm "sometimes we have to let go of what we really love" "you are free and I will understand if you don't choose to meet my needs" statements sound to pwBPD like "I expect you are not going to be able to figure this out and I am getting ready to cut you loose."  Putting together "I am willing to let you go" and a lack of very specific boundaries or stated needs on your part, she may conclude she will never figure out exactly what you need and panic.

I am really sure of the first two.  The third is just sort of an intuition based on the fact that if I were her, reading your last two posts, I would not be clear what I needed to do to keep you in my life.

xxoo

[Aussie JJ]

One thing I have learn from lurkign and reading throgh the boards.  Particulary the staying earlier when I was trying to resolve issues I had with my eBPDgf. 

Validate and dont push.  Let them open up themselves, your not a can opener. 

KISS.  Emotionally a pwBPD has trouble expressing their thoughts and needs due to them rapiudly changing and being polar oposites.  KISS.  everythign you say, do keep it simple.  Make it easy to be interpreted. 

IE:

I understand that your afraid of opening that box, your allowed to be afraid and overwhelmed by being open with those thoughts.  For me it is hard being open with you about these things, a bit overwhelming for me. 

Sympathy and Empathy, leave out the truth for the moment and work it in their slowly. 


AJJ. 

[Ripped Heart]

Patientandclear - the voice of reasoning 

I see where part of my conflict lies now, especially around the unconditional love. You are perfectly right that it leaves the door open to abuse and the issue is around my boundaries. Which begs the question then if there is such a thing as unconditional love in such a relationship. To me it signifies exactly what you said, the willingness to do anything for the other person and not ask for anything in return. You have the trust there that the other person isn't going to abuse you, will have a level of respect for your own boundaries and an understanding of who you are as a person.

I just feel that the moment you start assigning boundaries (such as I will love you unconditionally as long as you don't abuse this, do that, say this or that and open up etc... ) You are essentially assigning conditions so it cancels it out. However, assigning personal boundaries and expectations to myself and conveying them, not to just to a romantic partner but to everyone in particular and standing firm on my boundaries means I identify my own tolerance level and therefore gives a clear indication as to where the line is.

And herein lies part of my issue. I can identify the boundaries I want to set within myself but have great difficulty in keeping them which then leads to confusion in others because of my own doing.

So if I take the whole events of yesterday, the previous night I asked that we take a step back as we both need to heal right now. There were reassurances that it didn't mean I didn't care, just that whilst things are confusing for both, it would be a good idea to give it some breathing space. I believe that seems like a perfectly reasonable boundary, so space was established until yesterday.

She reached out asking for help and immediately the rescuer tendencies kicked in and ran in to save her. Where as in principle I should have stuck firmly with my own boundaries. The whole purpose of them is to give the space to understand and work through issues but by dropping them again I didn't allow myself that time, allowed her to test my boundary and watch it fall over. Which given that it was down, then led to the events of last night where she initially called and burst into tears because she had been sat in a cold and dark house for the past 2 days because of no gas or electricity because she can't take care of herself.

Again, I'm the one she turns to for that and I step in and sort it out for her believing I'm doing her a favour but in truth, from what I believe you are saying, I'm not. Instead of seeing it as a favour, she knows my boundaries are weak and I'm the person she turns to because she knows I will sort it out for her and basically soothe her fears, nothing more than that.

I see the pattern now, such as just before Christmas, whenever she reaches out it is always to ask me to do something, such as fixing her tablet or picking up something from the store or being able to help her "friend" out. The last one scares me a little because I'm feeding her to help gain favour with someone else and therefore as soon as that's done I get discarded. As soon as she gets what she needs from me, I hear nothing else until she needs something again. There are no phonecalls or texts to ask how I am or what I've been up to, it's all about need. And she knows she can do that because I don't have established boundaries, or once I put up the wall, she knows exactly what will knock it down.

It also explains now when I did enforce a boundary a few weeks ago, it terrified the life out of her. The night she told her friend she wanted to end things but didn't know how, was the night that I walked away. I told her that if it's what she truly wanted, I couldn't stay. When I got the text and phonecall the following morning, she was devastated because her expectation of me was that I had gone downstairs to sleep on the sofa, instead I'd actually left and gone home which is precisely what I told her I was going to do. So there was an example of me stating a boundary and her expectation that I would let it slip. That's when she opened up about she has extreme thoughts one way and then the next, she really does want it to be over one minute but doesn't the next. And then I make the mistake by dropping my boundaries and jumping back into the middle of it where what I should have done is taken that step back and allowed her the space to process what she wants.

Now in the events of yesterday, I'm still not entirely sure how I should have handled the first encounter. Should I have messaged her back to help her out or remained NC? This is the part where I struggle is understanding what is a test and what is genuine. I now see it linked to what followed yesterday so think this was a test. If I've explained that a break is needed am I right to ignore it or should I have followed up and enforced that boundary. This is where I struggle around doing the right thing, answering is giving her the validation, not answering is making me out to be rude and unhelpful, which then goes against my own character so this is where I get caught up in the loop.

[EaglesJuju]

Now in the events of yesterday, I'm still not entirely sure how I should have handled the first encounter. Should I have messaged her back to help her out or remained NC? This is the part where I struggle is understanding what is a test and what is genuine. I now see it linked to what followed yesterday so think this was a test. If I've explained that a break is needed am I right to ignore it or should I have followed up and enforced that boundary. This is where I struggle around doing the right thing, answering is giving her the validation, not answering is making me out to be rude and unhelpful, which then goes against my own character so this is where I get caught up in the loop.

I am confused about your boundary.  Is your boundary not reaching out to help her with certain things?  Or is it having space to work on yourself?  

[Ripped Heart]

The boundary is about having some personal space right now. That's also what she has asked for too but then on this we are both as bad as each other. She drops hers to ask for help and I drop mine to help her.

What I want to know is if someone requests personal space, what constitutes as being acceptable in terms of communication? I don't want to come across as harsh and unwelcoming but at the same time I don't want to keep falling into the same trap and the same cycle over and over again.

Decided today to block her number at least for today on my phone, very much for me because I'm not well right now and I'm already struggling with things. However, what I didn't realise is that my phone still sends a message through to tell me that I have a missed call or missed text from a blocked number. Defeats the purpose really 

I'm struggling because I want to be supportive but at the same time I very much need my personal space to work through my own issues. In other words, is it possible to maintain that boundary of personal space whilst keeping LC or does it have to be NC?

[EaglesJuju]

The boundary is about having some personal space right now. That's also what she has asked for too but then on this we are both as bad as each other. She drops hers to ask for help and I drop mine to help her.

What I want to know is if someone requests personal space, what constitutes as being acceptable in terms of communication? I don't want to come across as harsh and unwelcoming but at the same time I don't want to keep falling into the same trap and the same cycle over and over again.

Decided today to block her number at least for today on my phone, very much for me because I'm not well right now and I'm already struggling with things. However, what I didn't realise is that my phone still sends a message through to tell me that I have a missed call or missed text from a blocked number. Defeats the purpose really 

I'm struggling because I want to be supportive but at the same time I very much need my personal space to work through my own issues. In other words, is it possible to maintain that boundary of personal space whilst keeping LC or does it have to be NC?

You can still be supportive while having the space to work on yourself. It is a catch 22 if you go completely NC with the intention of still wanting to continue the relationship, you may get the "space" you need, but may trigger her abandonment fears.   

You can continue to support her and let you know that you are there for her, but you can focus on yourself.  You can choose to respond to her when you want.  You do not need to be at her beck and call. 

I did this with my bf.  I maintained space to work on myself.  I would not respond to him right away if he texted or I would wait a few days to contact him with a supportive text.  I was direct and let him know that I needed some space for myself and it did not mean I do not care or love him less. 

[Ripped Heart]

Thanks eagles for the clarification. It's been difficult trying to find that balance.

As I mentioned earlier, I blocked her on my phone. That's been for me today because I'm really ill and needed the recovery time rather than checking my phone every 30 mins to see if I had a text. Psychologically, I felt if I did that then I wouldn't need to check.

So just been in to my blocked messages and there was one from her this morning about her tablet. A few hours later, another text along the same lines, then another in an hour after that to say she is really excited to get it back.

Tablet went away for fixing last week but heard nothing about it. I called yesterday for some info and found it had been fixed and was being returned.

On the 3rd text, just left it plain and simple by validating her feelings of excitement and that I was pleased they were able to fix it for her. Nothing more or less. At the same time I sent that through, she sent another text she received on the delivery notification.

What I did notice is that the time between texts got closer and closer. Its like she starts to panic if I don't respond fast enough. So my question there is whether you see a similar pattern too and how do you navigate around that one. You mention about being direct around your space, was that sufficient or were those boundaries tested from time to time?

[EaglesJuju]

What I did notice is that the time between texts got closer and closer. Its like she starts to panic if I don't respond fast enough. So my question there is whether you see a similar pattern too and how do you navigate around that one. You mention about being direct around your space, was that sufficient or were those boundaries tested from time to time?

He fluctuates between avoidance and very clingy/needy.  I adapt to whatever mood he is in. He was more clingy/needy when he was here with me. A lot of times he would follow me around like a lost puppy dog.  On those occasions, I would say, "I understand that you are (whatever mood he was in) but I really could use a little time to myself."  Sometimes, I would try to lighten the mood saying it with humor.  I always reassured him that I love him and am still there for him. 

At first it was confusing for him to understand why I wanted space all of a sudden. He can be very self-aware at times and told me later,  he thought I did not love him anymore and he was a bad person because, I wanted space. 

I kept to my boundaries.  It was rough for awhile because, he would either test it or start an argument. I learned to keep my cool and stick to it. After awhile he started to understand that space is good and he started to respect that.   

[Ripped Heart]

Sounds like you have found your balance there Eagles and that you deal with things really well.

Gf just finished work and called me. She wanted to express again that she is excited about her tablet arriving tomorrow. With the dilemma being we are unsure if its coming to my house or hers. Email went to her but woman on phone said its been posted to me.

So gf also wanted to tell me about her New Years Eve plans. Her D17 is throwing a house party so she is just going to sit in her room. She was going to invite her friend over for a drink but friend has other plans so she is going to spend it alone in her room.

She followed this up by inviting herself over to mine to pick up her tablet if it does arrive here. I just told her she is more than welcome to come across and pick it up but didn't discuss my New Year Plans with her. Up until a few days ago, we were spending it together.

She got quite sad after that and the call ended. I can't help shaking the feeling she was expecting me to ask her to stay as most of the call was about being on her own. I kept the call to the point, told her I was sorry her friend had other plans and asked if she might join in the festivities with her daughter. She said no, because she's too old for that kind of thing. Tried to offer reassurance on that too.

I know the pattern already where I suggest she stay over, she knocks that back or if I suggest going there she will say she is just going to go to bed. So instead I didn't suggest anything and got the feeling she was wanting me to say something. Fallen into that trap many times recently and at the end of the day, I'm not a mind reader.

[EaglesJuju]

Sometimes I deal with things well  

I think you handled yourself very well and stuck to your boundary of wanting some personal space. 

The mind reading business really drives me bananas. I have become really adept with deciphering the hidden meanings of things.