Thoughts from a BPD mind

[jhkbuzz]

We were in the process of breaking up when I texted her the following question. She was completely overwhelmed by the idea that we weren't equal in the relationship; that I saw her as "less than" - and, for her, this contributed greatly to her decision to move out.  Some background info before you read the text:

• She spent the first several years of our relationship in "vulnerable child" mode - very much like a 5/6 year old. (This happened after we moved in together, not before).



• I honestly did not see her as "less than," although it is true that I was sometimes frustrated by her unwillingness to take on responsibility. Overall it seemed to me that we had strengths in different areas - so I thought we complimented one another in many ways.



• Her therapist suggested to her that, over time she became actually angry at HERSELF for acting like a child in our relationship - but she only held onto that thought briefly before projecting blame back onto me.



• At one point in the r/s we began having arguments about money because she was impulsively shopping and running up credit card bills.



• She chronically lied and repeatedly cheated on me.



• As you may have noticed, I was in a pea-soup-level FOG   

I asked: How did you want me to see you?  If you could be inside my brain, what would my thoughts about you be?



She responded: As sexy.  As a true partner.  As equal and trusted in all ways... .to have conversations, to spend money, to have friendships.  You would say things like "hell yes, you are the best and you are mine" or "yeah, she's got quirks but I love them" or "yeah, she comes with issues and I don't care... .we are still equal."  Not fix them... .but love them, accept them, and eventually they would lessen.

Just looking for input here... .I am pretty much out of the FOG, over two months n/c, and I understand the relationship is completely over.  I'm just in the processing stage now... .

[fromheeltoheal]

As sexy.  As a true partner.  As equal and trusted in all ways... .to have conversations, to spend money, to have friendships.  You would say things like "hell yes, you are the best and you are mine" or "yeah, she's got quirks but I love them" or "yeah, she comes with issues and I don't care... .we are still equal."  Not fix them... .but love them, accept them, and eventually they would lessen.

Honestly that doesn't sound too out there jhk.  My experience is all women want to be considered sexy by their man, and women don't want men to jump in and 'fix' things, which men always want to do, women want to be listened to and understood, and just through the process of talking and being heard she will feel better.  I know, weird, but hey, we're not women.  There's also some self-awareness going on since she knows she's got 'issues', and a desire to be accepted anyway, and that acceptance will help.  And she wanted to be your equal.  It all sounds pretty normal to me, except of course for the list above, which sounds standard borderline.

Anyway, my two cents... .

[jhkbuzz]

My experience is all women want to be considered sexy... .

I told her all the time that I thought she was sexy, beautiful... .but, sadly, she had a inner voice that constantly told her that she was bad, fat, stupid... .I could never reassure her enough to counteract that inner voice. Trust me, I tried - because I loved her.

[jhkbuzz]

The more I think about it though... .how do you ask to be "trusted in all ways" when you've spent four years lying and cheating in a committed relationship?  How does that not sound too "out there"?

[fromheeltoheal]

The more I think about it though... .how do you ask to be "trusted in all ways" when you've spent four years lying and cheating in a committed relationship?  How does that not sound too "out there"?

Does she know you know she's been lying and cheating?  When I caught my ex in a lie, which was easy since she lied all the time, she would melt into a puddle of shame and look at me with pure panic in her eyes, which would last for a while, and then she'd compensate by raging, so after a while I just let it go because I didn't want to deal with the raging.  Shoulda walked away, but I stayed for a while.

Anyway, the core of a healthy relationship is a healthy friendship, and a friendship is based on mutual trust and respect, so for someone to say they want to be trusted in all ways is appropriate.  Of course someone who's lying all the time and still saying that is either delusional or manipulative or both; BPD is a mental illness, and it's not far fetched for her to lie to you and cheat on you, but also deny that she's doing it or justify doing it to herself to the point that she actually believes it when she says she wants to be 'trusted in all ways'.  The core of the disorder is great shame, all those lies just add to the shame pile, so actually getting vulnerable and honest about it all is just too painful, she ain't goin there, so the defense mechanisms get so strong that she's lying to herself and doesn't know it, so the facade she's painting for you is real in her head, until it isn't, until the cracks show, then everything crumbles.  Mental illness man, time to shift the focus to us, why we got in so deep, and use the experience to uncover our own issues and deal with them, a much better use of the pain.

[lost_in_translation]

My ex/gf also expected to be trusted 100% when she lied and had emotional affairs with other people for the whole 3 years we were together.  I can't tell you how many times, to no avail, I tried to explain to her that trust needs to be earned.  She just didn't get it.  I can honestly say that I believe that she didn't think she was doing anything wrong.  She was never able to empathize with me and understand that her actions were so hurtful.  "Get over it."  That was something I was told all too often.

[jhkbuzz]

The more I think about it though... .how do you ask to be "trusted in all ways" when you've spent four years lying and cheating in a committed relationship?  How does that not sound too "out there"?

Does she know you know she's been lying and cheating?  When I caught my ex in a lie, which was easy since she lied all the time, she would melt into a puddle of shame and look at me with pure panic in her eyes, which would last for a while, and then she'd compensate by raging, so after a while I just let it go because I didn't want to deal with the raging.  Shoulda walked away, but I stayed for a while.

Anyway, the core of a healthy relationship is a healthy friendship, and a friendship is based on mutual trust and respect, so for someone to say they want to be trusted in all ways is appropriate.  Of course someone who's lying all the time and still saying that is either delusional or manipulative or both; BPD is a mental illness, and it's not far fetched for her to lie to you and cheat on you, but also deny that she's doing it or justify doing it to herself to the point that she actually believes it when she says she wants to be 'trusted in all ways'.  The core of the disorder is great shame, all those lies just add to the shame pile, so actually getting vulnerable and honest about it all is just too painful, she ain't goin there, so the defense mechanisms get so strong that she's lying to herself and doesn't know it, so the facade she's painting for you is real in her head, until it isn't, until the cracks show, then everything crumbles.  Mental illness man, time to shift the focus to us, why we got in so deep, and use the experience to uncover our own issues and deal with them, a much better use of the pain.

Yes, she knows I know she lied and cheated... .we discussed it. First several people were dates and "kissing"; last one was a full blown affair.  The affair completely wrecked me... .I think I became emotionally dysregulated at the end.  I swung perfectly between "I love her and I want this to work" to "having sex with someone else is an absolute dealbreaker for me."  

Within the first month of finding out about the affair I told her that I needed more verbal reassurances of her love and commitment.  She responded that she thought I was being controlling - telling her what to say - or suggesting that what she was doing or saying wasn't enough.  She ended the relationship via email.

I understand what you're saying about shame.  In the end, I think that's why she left - she could not handle looking at me when I became such a huge trigger for her feelings of shame.  It's also why I think she will never attempt to recycle.

I completely agree that "the core of a healthy relationship is a healthy friendship, and a friendship is based on mutual trust and respect, so for someone to say they want to be trusted in all ways is appropriate." In the beginning, I thought that's what we had.  It's what I still want.  I just know I won't have it with her.

I've spent the past few months trying to understand as much as I possibly can about the disorder.  I've started therapy, and my intention is to shift the focus to myself.  I want to heal - to understand the part I played in the dysfunction so I can heal and move forward with my life.

[fromheeltoheal]

Within the first month of finding out about the affair I told her that I needed more verbal reassurances of her love and commitment.  She responded that she thought I was being controlling - telling her what to say - or suggesting that what she was doing or saying wasn't enough.  She ended the relationship via email.

I've been doing a lot of work on attachment styles lately, and that exchange you had with her is exactly how a person with an anxious attachment style in a relationship with someone with an avoidant attachment style would go down.  Think about it though: if you and I were in healthy relationships, when we said we needed more verbal reassurances, the other person would give them to us without question, because they love us, care about us, and want us to get our needs met.  A personality disorder is not an attachment style, but responding to your request by claiming you're being controlling is highly avoidant, which borderlines are in devaluation mode.

I've spent the past few months trying to understand as much as I possibly can about the disorder.  I've started therapy, and my intention is to shift the focus to myself.  I want to heal - to understand the part I played in the dysfunction so I can heal and move forward with my life.

Good for you!  And you will heal with that kind of focus, it just takes what it takes, and you'll come out the other side stronger, healthier and happier.

[Trog]

My ex/gf also expected to be trusted 100% when she lied and had emotional affairs with other people for the whole 3 years we were together.  I can't tell you how many times, to no avail, I tried to explain to her that trust needs to be earned.  She just didn't get it.  I can honestly say that I believe that she didn't think she was doing anything wrong.  She was never able to empathize with me and understand that her actions were so hurtful.  "Get over it."  That was something I was told all too often.

Do they really not get it? Cos sure as sherlock if it was the other way there would be a problem. I think they like to keep us on tenterhooks, in worry, anxious, and if we're not, they'll make is so (being out all night and not calling, the last communication I had with her she called me to tell me she fancied someone else! Why tell me that!). Get over it, is incredibly cold and not acceptable. Our stories btw are incredibly similar, my ex has been disagnosed with schitzophrenia, claimed her family were terrible and now they are fantastic and she is also obsessed with her sisters children whilst all the while accusing her sister of abusing them. The stories are so similar, its quite freaky, I can't believe another person has gone through this. Or that another would tolerate it.

They just dont love like we love and NC is the only way to stop giving time and attention to people who have shown you time and again that they dont deserve your time. Focus on you.

[jhkbuzz]

Within the first month of finding out about the affair I told her that I needed more verbal reassurances of her love and commitment.  She responded that she thought I was being controlling - telling her what to say - or suggesting that what she was doing or saying wasn't enough.  She ended the relationship via email.

I've been doing a lot of work on attachment styles lately, and that exchange you had with her is exactly how a person with an anxious attachment style in a relationship with someone with an avoidant attachment style would go down.  Think about it though: if you and I were in healthy relationships, when we said we needed more verbal reassurances, the other person would give them to us without question, because they love us, care about us, and want us to get our needs met. A personality disorder is not an attachment style, but responding to your request by claiming you're being controlling is highly avoidant, which borderlines are in devaluation mode.

YES!  That's exactly why I asked her for this - because that exactly what I would do if the situation was reversed.  

Truly, one of the saddest realizations for me was when I began to recognize, even before we broke up, that my needs would never be met in this relationship.  I would always have to "stuff them down" to keep the peace.

I also have done a fair amount of reading about attachment styles.  I actually have a "secure" attachment style, and, in the beginning of our relationship, I realized that she had an "anxious" attachment style.  It was actually very difficult for me to understand - I loved her, I was committed to her, I reassured her - but none of it made any difference in soothing her anxiety.  I even tried explaining to her that my love for her was like a strong river than ran "underneath" our relationship - that it was always there and could always be counted on - even if we were in the middle of normal, day to day irritations or arguments. None of this helped. I was actually out mowing the lawn one day and, when she called and I didn't pick up the phone, she sent her sister over to check that I was okay. Anxious, anxious anxious. Unable to be soothed.

Once she started cheating on me, everything shifted - I became anxious, and she became avoidant.  I'm glad you named it - I never really thought about the fact that she shifted to avoidant.

[Gaslit]

"yeah, she comes with issues and I don't care... .we are still equal. Not fix them... .but love them, accept them, and eventually they would lessen... ”

This in my opinion is a ruse and her placing blame on you.

She pretend to be self aware and considerate of her issues, but what she is really saying is that she has no plans to better herself or work on her issues, and it is in fact you who has the problem because you just won’t simply accept her for who she is.

The issues should lesson (her argument goes) as you ignore them and let her cheat and lie and treat you like shyte. So she says Lesson, but she does not agree that she needs to get better. The only better for her is that you don’t ask her about anything.

So she will search and search for that doormat who will accept her as-is. And even if she finds him, she will not respect him, and will continue her search for the unfindable. Because it isn’t you or the other guys, it is her with the problem. And the problem isn’t going away.

[jhkbuzz]

"yeah, she comes with issues and I don't care... .we are still equal. Not fix them... .but love them, accept them, and eventually they would lessen... ”

This in my opinion is a ruse and her placing blame on you.

She pretend to be self aware and considerate of her issues, but what she is really saying is that she has no plans to better herself or work on her issues, and it is in fact you who has the problem because you just won’t simply accept her for who she is.

The issues should lessen (her argument goes) as you ignore them and let her cheat and lie and treat you like shyte. So she says Lessen, but she does not agree that she needs to get better. The only better for her is that you don’t ask her about anything.

So she will search and search for that doormat who will accept her as-is. And even if she finds him, she will not respect him, and will continue her search for the unfindable. Because it isn’t you or the other guys, it is her with the problem. And the problem isn’t going away.

I probably should have said that she's been in therapy for the last year and a half... .so, somehow, she is aware of some of her issues but she keeps putting the bulk of the responsibility on me.  It's difficult to understand. And I know I'm not perfect... .but I was committed, faithful, helped her raise her daughter, helped her with her career... .I know I was good to her. Her family even commented (different ones at different times) how much "better" she seemed after she began a relationship with me.  I thought the use of the word "better" to be curious.  I wish I knew then what I know now.

I also think that her thought that her issues would lessen "because I loved and accepted them" was magical thinking.  If love could have actually healed her, then she would have been healed - because I truly loved her with all my heart.

I had great hopes when she started therapy that the cheating would stop.  What I learned at the end of the relationship was that, even as she was in therapy, she remained in contact with the man she had sex with.  She claims she ended the physical affair, but the emotional affair clearly continued.  Who knows what really happened.

When she first moved out I was tortured with thoughts that (because she was in therapy) she was becoming increasingly healthy and, although I lived through all the "hell" with her, I would now miss out on the healing and a possibly "healthy" relationship with her.  However, she immediately began dating when our relationship ended... .I'm assuming she already had someone lined up before she moved out.  I ran into her one night at a restaurant and she was on a date.  Saw pictures of her family's Christmas day celebration a few days ago and a different guy was with her at the party. I don't think anything will change - at least not for a very long time.

[ShakinMyHead]

jhkbuzz, the thing that finally occurred to me about pwBPD, was that, they are always "Claiming they are this or that". People that are, don't have to claim it. My exBPDbf, always would say "I'm a nice guy". I don't think truly nice people have to say this. They just are, and are secure in that fact. Your exBPDgf, wanting you to "see her as"… says to me, that she is 'acting as if'... Authentic people just are…BPD'S Protest too much….We get stuck in trying to understand the content of what they are saying. If she's cheating and lying, she's a cheater and a liar. I am the one that allowed my exBPDbf, to talk himself out of behavior that he clearly was caught at. I caught him with my own eyes. He is a liar and a cheat. He's not a nice guy. If he was, there would be absolutely no need to say it? Yes, Heeltotoe is correct, we all want to be seen and told we are attractive, and sexy to our partners (if we haven't experienced sexual abuse, that is) but to ask for those attributes in the face of abusive behavior, is us colluding with their insanity. Fole' adieu' , it's in the DSM as Shared psychosis. If it stinks in Denmark, it's because of the cheese and the ___ that's there. It's quite simple, There are no roses that stink. ___ stinks and roses don't. And BPD's have a stink problem, disorder or not. It is what it is. We allow them to complicate it. We join them in their delusion. If we want a relationship that is insane and makes no sense and drives us crazy, we should keep our BPD partners. If we want love and intimacy and safety, and growth, and have our world makes sense, we need to be with people that are what they are. I'm not sure if those of us that grow up with "Secure attachments", are drawn to BPD's? Or it certainly wouldn't last long, as it would not resemble our historic, definition of healthy love. My relationship with my BPDexbf was like playing the game of TWISTER. You could never settle into a comfort zone. No safety. As soon as it was, it had to change. Love doesn't matter when there is that kind of movement, that cat and mouse insanity. They can never be where they are. We strive to, we are able to. It is very sad, because if they were healthy, it might've been. BUT THEY ARE NOT, so, we must let this love go. Love is not enough… Hugs, SMH

[lost_in_translation]

My ex/gf also expected to be trusted 100% when she lied and had emotional affairs with other people for the whole 3 years we were together.  I can't tell you how many times, to no avail, I tried to explain to her that trust needs to be earned.  She just didn't get it.  I can honestly say that I believe that she didn't think she was doing anything wrong.  She was never able to empathize with me and understand that her actions were so hurtful.  "Get over it."  That was something I was told all too often.

Do they really not get it? Cos sure as sherlock if it was the other way there would be a problem. I think they like to keep us on tenterhooks, in worry, anxious, and if we're not, they'll make is so (being out all night and not calling, the last communication I had with her she called me to tell me she fancied someone else! Why tell me that!). Get over it, is incredibly cold and not acceptable. Our stories btw are incredibly similar, my ex has been disagnosed with schitzophrenia, claimed her family were terrible and now they are fantastic and she is also obsessed with her sisters children whilst all the while accusing her sister of abusing them. The stories are so similar, its quite freaky, I can't believe another person has gone through this. Or that another would tolerate it.

They just dont love like we love and NC is the only way to stop giving time and attention to people who have shown you time and again that they dont deserve your time. Focus on you.

Trog,

Although, I am sorry that you had to go through something so similar , it's nice to know I'm not alone.  You're right, the similarities are creepy.  I'm blown away... .

Also, I agree, that they do not love like we love.  As a matter of fact, I always questioned whether my ex was capable of love at all.  To her love=fear... .at least that's the sense I got from her.  

[jhkbuzz]

I'm not sure if those of us that grow up with "Secure attachments", are drawn to BPD's? Or it certainly wouldn't last long, as it would not resemble our historic, definition of healthy love.

You could be right... .I'm not inclined to be cocky about anything anymore.

What is true is that the first half of our relationship was very different from the second half.  The dividing line was the infidelity.

In the first half, she was anxious, clinging and dependent.  I would have never imagined that things could flip the way they did.  I actually spent a lot of effort in trying to help her be more independent... .emotionally, financially, practically.  I am pretty independent, and I thought that she chose me, in part, because she admired those qualities in me and wanted them for herself.  

All I know is that the secure person I started out as in the relationship was the polar opposite of the insecure mess I became at the end of the relationship.

And, for the record, there was a child involved... .so I stayed longer than I think I would have if the kiddo wasn't in the picture.

[jhkbuzz]

As a matter of fact, I always questioned whether my ex was capable of love at all. 

Mine actually once told me that she doesn't think she's ever really loved anyone.

I don't think that means she didn't have deep feelings of intense affection and need... .but I do think that, on some level, she recognized that she was incapable of mature, healthy, adult love.

[Popcorn71]

jhkbuzz, the thing that finally occurred to me about pwBPD, was that, they are always "Claiming they are this or that". People that are, don't have to claim it. My exBPDbf, always would say "I'm a nice guy". I don't think truly nice people have to say this. They just are, and are secure in that fact. Your exBPDgf, wanting you to "see her as"… says to me, that she is 'acting as if'... Authentic people just are…BPD'S Protest too much….

I very much agree with this.  I noticed that my xBPDh did this often.  He would say that he was a good man, that he was faithful and would never cheat, that he would never tell lies.  You can guess what he actually did.  He would point out that 'he must love me because ... .' and then list examples of all that he put up with to be with me.  He would say often that he had lots of friends, but in reality he just casually knew a lot of people and had few real friendships.

I always felt that he was trying to prove something (or hiding something).

[fromheeltoheal]

I always felt that he was trying to prove something (or hiding something).

Or he was trying to define himself.  Borderlines have an unstable sense of self, since it is not fully formed, so he doesn't know who he 'is', and his proclamations are him trying to define himself, along with looking for validation from you, and then maybe, if he states it with enough certainty and conviction and you agree, he might be someone acceptable, and the shame will go away.

[myself]

Now I'll be naughty. Now I'll be nice.

Now I'll be you. Now someone else.

Now I'll be faithful. Now I'll be unfaithful.

Now I'll be honest. Now I'll tell lies.

Now I'll be here. Now I'll be gone.

Exhausting. Easy to get lost in there.

[jhkbuzz]

Now I'll be naughty. Now I'll be nice.

Now I'll be you. Now someone else.

Now I'll be faithful. Now I'll be unfaithful.

Now I'll be honest. Now I'll tell lies.

Now I'll be here. Now I'll be gone.

Exhausting. Easy to get lost in there.

Very poetic and true, songbook.

[Caredverymuch]

We were in the process of breaking up when I texted her the following question. She was completely overwhelmed by the idea that we weren't equal in the relationship; that I saw her as "less than" - and, for her, this contributed greatly to her decision to move out.  Some background info before you read the text:

• She spent the first several years of our relationship in "vulnerable child" mode - very much like a 5/6 year old. (This happened after we moved in together, not before).



• I honestly did not see her as "less than," although it is true that I was sometimes frustrated by her unwillingness to take on responsibility. Overall it seemed to me that we had strengths in different areas - so I thought we complimented one another in many ways.



• Her therapist suggested to her that, over time she became actually angry at HERSELF for acting like a child in our relationship - but she only held onto that thought briefly before projecting blame back onto me.



• At one point in the r/s we began having arguments about money because she was impulsively shopping and running up credit card bills.



• She chronically lied and repeatedly cheated on me.



• As you may have noticed, I was in a pea-soup-level FOG   

I asked: How did you want me to see you?  If you could be inside my brain, what would my thoughts about you be?



She responded: As sexy.  As a true partner.  As equal and trusted in all ways... .to have conversations, to spend money, to have friendships.  You would say things like "hell yes, you are the best and you are mine" or "yeah, she's got quirks but I love them" or "yeah, she comes with issues and I don't care... .we are still equal."  Not fix them... .but love them, accept them, and eventually they would lessen.

Just looking for input here... .I am pretty much out of the FOG, over two months n/c, and I understand the relationship is completely over.  I'm just in the processing stage now... .

My expBPD wanted me to view him/ our r/s the same way. He said many of those same words.  He always asked what I physically saw in him.  I saw a person.  I saw someone I cared about.  And, as your partner asked of you, I was already consistently doing all those things, effortlessly with my ex.  It seemed the more I ( genuinely) did not waiver, the more he projected on me.  And, despite the fact he was very much a waif but I viewed him as a gentle man, he up and left me. 

It seems there was just no winning despite the fact my sentiments were very real for him. 

The disorder won.

[charred]

We were in the process of breaking up when I texted her the following question. She was completely overwhelmed by the idea that we weren't equal in the relationship; that I saw her as "less than" - and, for her, this contributed greatly to her decision to move out.  Some background info before you read the text:

Been a lot of good comments... but getting back to the original sentences... it sure strikes a chord with me.

My exBPDgf used the same "less than" wording and claims... .and alternated between feeling unworthy and feeling I was beneath her... and I don't think I had anything to do with any of it. The behavior went in a loop, and seemed to repeat, each time a bit faster... till at the end we could make up and be broke up within an hour. The thing was, she didn't seem to listen to what I said, she seemed to answer her questions herself and storm on. Thinking you are inferior to others is an ego problem, so is thinking you are superior to others. Being equal is a more judgement free, mature position... .and I would never describe my pwBPD as "judgement free" or "mature".

I believe that pwBPD... are haunted by their pasts... maybe even stuck in a loop, never having passed those early development stages, certainly not full of empathy and genuine compassion. But it is doubtful that you made her feel "less than"... .it is probably her projecting how she feels part of the time, and it doesn't lead to anywhere worth going to dwell on it.

[hope2727]

jhkbuzz, the thing that finally occurred to me about pwBPD, was that, they are always "Claiming they are this or that". People that are, don't have to claim it. My exBPDbf, always would say "I'm a nice guy". I don't think truly nice people have to say this. They just are, and are secure in that fact. Your exBPDgf, wanting you to "see her as"… says to me, that she is 'acting as if'... Authentic people just are…BPD'S Protest too much….

I very much agree with this.  I noticed that my xBPDh did this often.  He would say that he was a good man, that he was faithful and would never cheat, that he would never tell lies.  You can guess what he actually did.  He would point out that 'he must love me because ... .' and then list examples of all that he put up with to be with me.  He would say often that he had lots of friends, but in reality he just casually knew a lot of people and had few real friendships.

I always felt that he was trying to prove something (or hiding something).

Wow have you been dating my ex?  His POF dating profile says he never lies and is totally honest. Ummmmm no. How sad. Now I keep thinking I wonder if I say those things sometimes?  I like the concept that you don't have to tell people who you are you just have to be that person. I don't have to tell people I am honest I just am honest. I don't have to tell people I don't cheat I just have to not cheat. I know I did tell my ex that after he got super jealous and suspicious all the time. Guess it was JADEing.

[jhkbuzz]

We were in the process of breaking up when I texted her the following question. She was completely overwhelmed by the idea that we weren't equal in the relationship; that I saw her as "less than" - and, for her, this contributed greatly to her decision to move out.  Some background info before you read the text:

Been a lot of good comments... but getting back to the original sentences... it sure strikes a chord with me.

My exBPDgf used the same "less than" wording and claims... .and alternated between feeling unworthy and feeling I was beneath her... and I don't think I had anything to do with any of it. The behavior went in a loop, and seemed to repeat, each time a bit faster... till at the end we could make up and be broke up within an hour. The thing was, she didn't seem to listen to what I said, she seemed to answer her questions herself and storm on. Thinking you are inferior to others is an ego problem, so is thinking you are superior to others. Being equal is a more judgement free, mature position... .and I would never describe my pwBPD as "judgement free" or "mature".

I believe that pwBPD... are haunted by their pasts... maybe even stuck in a loop, never having passed those early development stages, certainly not full of empathy and genuine compassion. But it is doubtful that you made her feel "less than"... .it is probably her projecting how she feels part of the time, and it doesn't lead to anywhere worth going to dwell on it.

You are right about the "loop" - we are just a stand in for an childhood trauma/drama that gets replayed endlessly.

I've read a lot of posts from someone with the username of "2010", and they are incredibly insightful.  He spends quite a bit of time describing the critical, inner "punitive parent" that lives inside a pwBPD - an inner voice that constantly criticizes them for not becoming a fully formed "self." Partners eventually become a stand-in for this punitive parent - and receive all the rage and acting out from the pwBPD that is really meant for the original parent.

Below 2010 is talking about Borderline waifs, which is what I believe my BPDgf was:

"The compulsion for a waif is to serve another person and attach to them for survival. When this servitude is praised, the Borderline feels somewhat conflicted, as the feel good quality of pleasing the other person soon turns into a distorted perception of captivity and bondage. The partner then becomes a lightning rod for the intra-psychic scapegoating that lives within their mind.  Scapegoating and blame are projected at the partner.  Again, this isn't your fault.

Borderline waifs will attach to those they perceive to be dominant, (most of the time that is a conscientious and caring partner who rescues them).  The Borderline then cries foul when their submissiveness becomes so extreme (at the hand of their own doing) and the equality in the relationship is so askew that it gives the partner an appearance of a taskmaster and the Borderline a reasonable ‘out’ based on their inner prosecutorial ideas of reference."

[Caredverymuch]

I'm not sure if those of us that grow up with "Secure attachments", are drawn to BPD's? Or it certainly wouldn't last long, as it would not resemble our historic, definition of healthy love.


In the first half, she was anxious, clinging and dependent.  I would have never imagined that things could flip the way they did.  I actually spent a lot of effort in trying to help her be more independent... .emotionally, financially, practically.  I am pretty independent, and I thought that she chose me, in part, because she admired those qualities in me and wanted them for herself.  

All I know is that the secure person I started out as in the relationship was the polar opposite of the insecure mess I became at the end of the relationship.

I questioned the very same in how I ended up the insecure mess by the end, he being the waif, spending much of the r/s anxious and clingy while I, too, encouraged his independence and growth.

When you are in a r/s w a pBPD, and they are in the one down position, the " one up" partner ends up a victim be the end.  Its beyond belief to fathom as the r/s begins so differently, as you stated.

[jhkbuzz]

I'm not sure if those of us that grow up with "Secure attachments", are drawn to BPD's? Or it certainly wouldn't last long, as it would not resemble our historic, definition of healthy love.


In the first half, she was anxious, clinging and dependent.  I would have never imagined that things could flip the way they did.  I actually spent a lot of effort in trying to help her be more independent... .emotionally, financially, practically.  I am pretty independent, and I thought that she chose me, in part, because she admired those qualities in me and wanted them for herself.  

All I know is that the secure person I started out as in the relationship was the polar opposite of the insecure mess I became at the end of the relationship.

I questioned the very same in how I ended up the insecure mess by the end, he being the waif, spending much of the r/s anxious and clingy while I, too, encouraged his independence and growth.

When you are in a r/s w a pBPD, and they are in the one down position, the "one up" partner ends up a victim be the end.  Its beyond belief to fathom as the r/s begins so differently, as you stated.

Indeed.  I told my therapist that, in the first half of the relationship, I would have bet my life that it would never have ended the way it did.

If I had made that bet, I'd be dead right now.

[Caredverymuch]

I'm not sure if those of us that grow up with "Secure attachments", are drawn to BPD's? Or it certainly wouldn't last long, as it would not resemble our historic, definition of healthy love.


In the first half, she was anxious, clinging and dependent.  I would have never imagined that things could flip the way they did.  I actually spent a lot of effort in trying to help her be more independent... .emotionally, financially, practically.  I am pretty independent, and I thought that she chose me, in part, because she admired those qualities in me and wanted them for herself. 

All I know is that the secure person I started out as in the relationship was the polar opposite of the insecure mess I became at the end of the relationship.

I questioned the very same in how I ended up the insecure mess by the end, he being the waif, spending much of the r/s anxious and clingy while I, too, encouraged his independence and growth.

When you are in a r/s w a pBPD, and they are in the one down position, the "one up" partner ends up a victim be the end.  Its beyond belief to fathom as the r/s begins so differently, as you stated.

Indeed.  I told my therapist that, in the first half of the relationship, I would have bet my life that it would never have ended the way it did.

If I had made that bet, I'd be dead right now.

That makes two of us.  The way he switched literally like a light switch from being a very gentle, needy, sensitive, committed ( i thought), absolutely and intuitively soft and  loving man for SUCH  a length of time to a cold insensitive, cruel, uncaring and horrifically hateful man while he watched me bcome so entirely bewildered with grief and professing such caring yet.  This latter part of the r/s man was absolutely unfathomable to me.  A true shock. Even to this day full knowing of the disorder.  Me, the independent level headed one, now the undone, entirely traumatized mess?  While the weak one walked away head high?   This was beyond night and day.

This man who opened up so widely to me.  Who sobbed very, very real and heartbreaking tears as he spoke of his fear of losing me, of his incredible need for me.  His love for me.  You cannot make those moments so palpable and real up.  You cant.

This very man up and walked out on me.  Overnight.  And bcame the other man. 

I said these words so often to my T, and several times to my ex:  " SO many ppl I could predict even a fraction of this from, but NEVER this man.  Ever. " 

I would have bet my life on it too. 1000%.   In many ways I did. 

[hope2727]

The way he switched literally like a light switch from being a very gentle, needy, sensitive, committed ( i thought), absolutely and intuitively soft and  loving man for SUCH  a length of time to a cold insensitive, cruel, uncaring and horrifically hateful man while he watched me bcome so entirely bewildered with grief and professing such caring yet.  This latter part of the r/s man was absolutely unfathomable to me.  A true shock. Even to this day full knowing of the disorder.  Me, the independent level headed one, now the undone, entirely traumatized mess?  While the weak one walked away head high?   This was beyond night and day.

This man who opened up so widely to me.  Who sobbed very, very real and heartbreaking tears as he spoke of his fear of losing me, of his incredible need for me.  His love for me.  You cannot make those moments so palpable and real up.  You cant.

This very man up and walked out on me.  Overnight.  And bcame the other man.

I said these words so often to my T, and several times to my ex:  " SO many ppl I could predict even a fraction of this from, but NEVER this man.  Ever. " 

I could not have articulated my experience more accurately than you have. I feel exactly the same way. Thank you for your eloquent way of stating this. It makes me feel less alone, less the fool for falling for the act.

[billypilgrim]

In the first half, she was anxious, clinging and dependent.  I would have never imagined that things could flip the way they did.  I actually spent a lot of effort in trying to help her be more independent... .emotionally, financially, practically.  I am pretty independent, and I thought that she chose me, in part, because she admired those qualities in me and wanted them for herself.  

All I know is that the secure person I started out as in the relationship was the polar opposite of the insecure mess I became at the end of the relationship.

This really hit home.  I wrote this almost verbatim in an email to my exBPD's mother after my ex left.  It was a moment of weakness and I think it speaks more to how insecure I had become at the end.  But I noticed immediately how dependent my ex wanted to be, despite how independent her outward persona appeared.

When you are in a r/s w a pBPD, and they are in the one down position, the " one up" partner ends up a victim be the end.  Its beyond belief to fathom as the r/s begins so differently, as you stated.

This is very interesting.  It probably speaks to why I (and maybe y'all as well) felt like my ex was a stranger at the end.  She was no longer the victim that I protected and cared for.  She was this cold and calculating stranger that couldn't see me in anything but a negative light.  It truly is like they completely change at the end and we are left wondering what just happened.  The roles of the relationship really do completely flip.

[patientandclear]

The way he switched literally like a light switch from being a very gentle, needy, sensitive, committed ( i thought), absolutely and intuitively soft and  loving man for SUCH  a length of time to a cold insensitive, cruel, uncaring and horrifically hateful man while he watched me bcome so entirely bewildered with grief and professing such caring yet.  This latter part of the r/s man was absolutely unfathomable to me.  A true shock. Even to this day full knowing of the disorder.  Me, the independent level headed one, now the undone, entirely traumatized mess?  While the weak one walked away head high?   This was beyond night and day.

This man who opened up so widely to me.  Who sobbed very, very real and heartbreaking tears as he spoke of his fear of losing me, of his incredible need for me.  His love for me.  You cannot make those moments so palpable and real up.  You cant.

This very man up and walked out on me.  Overnight.  And bcame the other man.

I said these words so often to my T, and several times to my ex:  " SO many ppl I could predict even a fraction of this from, but NEVER this man.  Ever. " 

I could not have articulated my experience more accurately than you have. I feel exactly the same way. Thank you for your eloquent way of stating this. It makes me feel less alone, less the fool for falling for the act.

This is the core of why recovery from this experience is so very hard.  We simply cannot assimilate the two truths.  Our minds have to make room for both of these realities and they just don't fit together.  It can make you crazy :/

A member who posted here briefly when I first joined, NevestNA, wrote about the bizarre experience of slipping, without realizing it was happening, "from the adored to the adoring."  From that loving independent position to a posture of addicted need.  I have always really appreciated the horror she expressed upon realizing that that had happened.  She exhorted herself to "get up off your knees" when she understood what had happened, and she did, and she fiercely shut the door on the whole dynamic.

I haven't found it easy to do that.  The part of my ex that was sincere about loving me haunts me.  And that supports bargaining, which for me is a deadly temptation.

But the more I make myself see, the more I realize I was one in a long long string of women that abandoned child part of him had attached to in similar fashion.  It was no more true or eternal with me than with the others.  That has been a very harsh realization but it helps put the longing and the bargaining to rest.

.