Have I finally learned? Why so slow?

[Perfidy]

You're a guy. You did all the normal guy things. You thought with the little head. You're human. We get it. Lol! Who hasn't done that? Just find the beautiful person that you are. That's all anyone can do.

[eyvindr]

That's funny! I think. Are you suggesting that I simply goofed, and picked someone based on superficial physical traits? No more to it than that? I really would like to believe that, but I worry that there's more to it.

[eyvindr]

Nutshell: Wrote this post a few years ago, after the second major split with my uBPDxgf. Did a pretty good job of putting into words how I best understand how BPD presented in my ex's behavior.

Really sorry to hear that you're going through this, Dr. Me2.

It's hard enough to get through a break-up with a pwBPD -- let alone a divorce. And, when there are kids involved, well... .in my experience, it connects you with a whole new level of vulnerability.

Your comment on your s2b-ex's cycling is what's prompting me to reply -- but there's so much going on here aside from that... .

Just a few hours ago, she sent me an email threaten me that if I don't start the divorce proceedings she will start poisoning the kids against me until I breakdown. She is determined to inflict as much pain as possible. I am in pain but I am not sure if it is because my partner is dying (as she became a different person) or part of me is.

I knew if I stayed under such circumstances, the uncontrollable behavior and escalation will reach a level will both regret it. So I left.

It has been already almost 3 woks since I left (temp) the house due to the DV. She asked for NC although she email me to ask for more money.

Right after I went away she set me up for failure, she started to faint, feel numbness, dizzy, etc and turned the tables around blaming me for leaving in the middle of her getting sick and blaming was all my fault.

I was hoping by now she would have returned to baseline or at least heading in that direction so we can have a dialogue, but no, her attacks, blames and accusations have become more pervasive and intense.

The more I don't engage (JADE) or confront her the more dysregulated she becomes. The more I try to support and have empathy the more violent she becomes.

I am seeing a recurrent pattern, her negative projection is triggered by her setting me up for failure (me stepping on a mine field), or by ruminating on the past or blaming me anyway regardless.

I am not sure if she is going crazy or I am or both of us. This is insane!

Certainly posting here and venting out has kept me away from getting worst. Yet, her intensity is becoming unbearable and that is exactly what she wants.

Yes, it sounds like she's still getting what she wants. Even if you aren't voluntarily giving it to her, per se. Remember -- even if you don't provide a PDI with some form of "emotional supply," their illnesses are able to make them believe that you are still a source, through disordered thinking.

You left the house to prevent further escalation -- but the escalation has continued. In other words, "you can't leave me to suffer alone -- you are inseparable from this mess!" In fact, in her mind, she is the victim -- you caused everything to happen. To further make this indisputable to her "audiences" -- not only did you leave her, you left her when she was sick -- which would be in keeping with your "character" in her "play" (remember your audition? you are a heartless b*stard, likely prone to abuse, as well, no?).

She demands that you stop communicating with her -- then asks you for money. In other words, "don't talk to me unless I need something." That is an acceptable, rational agreement in her mind.

You do have it figured out, though -- anything you try to do the right way can and most likely will be flipped over and used, by her, as evidence of how much you continue to do wrong. If you don't JADE, you're a cold-hearted beast who ignores her. If you support her, you're a manipulative monster who is feeding off her emotions because you want something (probably sex, or control of the children).

You aren't going crazy, Dr.Me2. You're just being observant, and objective -- you're seeing reality, as it is, with a normal, healthy mind. Unlike your wife, who is seeing reality as she fabricates it to match up to her script. You feel crazy because you're trying to make sense of it -- and it doesn't make sense. (That's why it's called "crazy-making behavior" -- it makes us feel like we're going crazy -- in fact, we are, if we begin to accept it as reality.) It makes no sense. It doesn't and won't ever make any sense. You are getting a front-row view of BPD, uncut and uncensored, my friend. And it's fascinating, and terrifying -- and very dangerous, and hurtful to you. Because you love your kids, and you still love her -- and you probably still sometimes feel like you're just having a really bizarre, really bad nightmare, and are just waiting to wake up. I know.

When I went through what you're going through (divorcing my uBPDexw, fighting for custody of our son), I learned through hard and often humiliating experience that I had to take everything that my ex wife told me with a complete grain of salt. Literally -- I had to learn how to let her words go in one ear and out the other. Those same words that I'd lived for, which I'd taken a vow to always listen to and consider -- I had to teach myself that they weren't much more than noise that sounded like sentences being spoken in English.

You have to try your best to detach with compassion. I see my latest ex going through cycles as well. Her pattern seems to be rapid-cycling at onset of dysregulation -- hates me one minute, can't live without me the next -- which then settles into a long anger phase. When we broke up last year, and she realized it really was a break-up, and not some dramatic argument that would follow the time-worn formula of teary apologies on both sides and make-up sex -- she spent about 2 full months sending me vicious, hateful, accusatory emails, txt msgs and voicemails. Then, suddenly and for reasons I still don't fully understand, she wanted to reconcile. And we did.

Lasted another year before the next complete breakdown. As with the last time, she started rapidly alternating between hating me and attacking me and everything about me and our r-ship -- with poignant longing emails and heartfelt apologies for every single thing she does to cause the r-ship to flounder (those same things which, when I attempt to bring them to her attention, are met with nothing short of outrage). When I consistently held to NC, she then switched into hate-smearing overdrive -- and has continued virtually unabated for about 3 months now. Then, the other day, she said she wants to try again. No idea why -- though she tells me that it's because, "despite everything you've done to me" (this, in her mind, includes physically, emotionally and verbally abusing her, relentlessly criticizing her non-stop, isolating her from her family and friends, and abandoning her while she was in the hospital), she "still loves" me.

Sure, I'd love to make sense of it. A year ago, I would have given anything to believe it -- and I did -- I agreed to reconcile with her and to try again. I stayed in the counseling that we'd started together before we split up -- she didn't. I learned and practiced new communication techniques -- she didn't. I adjusted to her quirks, and opened myself up to trying to understand her issues -- the end result? Eventually, her cycling became a little less frequent (went from every 3-4 days to once a week, to twice a month) -- but it never stopped. And she continued to dodge and evade *her* accountability -- any mood swings are attributed to stress, family, job, money, asthma, PMS, pre-menopause, ADHD, mold, gluten, her daughter's behavior, her daughter's birds, traffic, etc. She still refuses to accept that she has a PD of any kind -- oh, wait, except for D.I.D -- which she feels is completely ok and she's comfortable with it. Surely, I can't think it has anything to do with our struggles... .

Last year, I believed it. This year, I want to believe that it's true -- but I know it's not. Not that she's lying to me -- she believes it. Now. And she'll continue to believe it -- until she believes something else. And I'll lose again. We'll get along just fine, if I basically stay away from her, and we're never intimate. I'm too old for that kind of thing.

They like to believe that the formula is:

Love --> Intimacy --> Love --> Happiness.

And when the bliss is disrupted by the inevitable bump along the love trail, it's smoothed over by Open Communication and Understanding.

What the BPD makes them blind to is the actual formula. As soon as the intimacy line is crossed -- *bam!* It looks more like this:

Intimacy --> Engulfment --> Fear of abandonment --> BPD Partytime!

When the bliss is disrupted --> IT'S YOUR FAULT!

... .when you try to communicate --> IT'S YOUR FAULT!

... .when you try to understand --> IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!

Thing is, and I say this with complete sadness, doc -- it doesn't seem to end until you end it. I feel for you. It sucks.

Hang in there.

e.

[eyvindr]

The first incarnation of this thread, from 2013: "As FOG lifts, more dilemmas revealed"

[eyvindr]

From "Re: So completely confused as to what I should be doing or feeling"

Riddler --

You have to stop ruminating on this crap. No matter what you do or say or don't do or don't say, your ex is always going to have a "comebacK" that will leave you feeling like you're responsible for the whole thing, including the failure. Who cares who read what? -- everything you've said has been honest, right? If the truth hurts, so be it.

I think you want a relationship where you can live in the open light of day, and not subjugate your needs and feelings to a partner who will always put their needs and feelings ahead of everyone else's. It doesn't make her a bad person -- it makes her a bad partner.

Something hit me last night, and it was one of those realizations that just rang out, loud and clear as a bell. I actually thought of you when it hit me -- and everyone else here who struggles with the whole issue of maybe this, maybe that -- maybe if we'd've just been able to have had the exact right response to some specific situation, that all of these issues would just go away.

So, listen -- and see what you think. This is what the universe told me:

We feel like we have to do something, because we know that our partners are struggling with an illness that interferes with their ability to regulate their emotions in a way that would support a steady, peaceful ongoing romantic relationship. So, we don't want to judge them, or blame them, or hold them responsible for their behaviors -- because it's not their fault, due to the illness. It's BPD's fault, not the person's. Which is all great -- it speaks well of us for being compassionate, loving partners. But it keeps us stuck, and thinking that, if we can only learn how to get around the illness, to the real person who we love, then we can fix everything. If we can take them by the hand, and help navigate them through the fog, or at least recognize that it's just fog around us, and nothing real, then we can deal with this.

The problem is that it doesn't change a damned thing. The illness doesn't go away, and it won't go away, or even really improve, probably, without a full-on commitment to long-term therapy and hard, psychic WORK on our partners' parts. And very few of them seem willing to do this. There will be FOG every day -- just some days it will be worse than others.

I think we have a form of survivor guilt. And we need to get over it. This isn't our fault. We didn't cause it, we can't fix it, and we aren't obligated to stick around for roller coaster ride. I don't know about you, but I like sunshine.

[eyvindr]

From: "my shattered heart", I wrote:

Yes, it's a huge leap going from a sliver of hope to no hope at all, a complete letting go.  It's a necessary step, but a very painful one.

Think of it like this. Before, you were sitting on top of a stony precipice -- forgive me for struggling to describe this -- the right words escape me at the moment -- but think of something like this. So, you're on top of one of those spires. You got there by following a little bridge that used to connect it to the rest of the world. Since you arrived, that bridge has fallen down. So, now you're out there -- still surrounded by all this beauty, still able to see the rest of the world that you used to be a part of, except now you're out there, alone, stranded, isolated. It's a great view, but you're completely exposed to the elements, and utterly without any provisions needed to survive.

The only way off is to jump. You know it's going to suck, and you know it's going to hurt. You know you're going to get all cut up and bruised when you hit the ground. But it's the only way off. And, if you don't get off, you will perish up there alone -- you will die of thirst and starvation. The vultures will clean your bones, and then the sun, wind and rain will gradually reduce you to dust.

But, you will jump. Because you want to live. And once you're on the ground, you'll be reconnected to everything you need to stay alive. Including everything you need to heal from your fall. But first, you need to get back on the ground.



Prepare for the grieving process:

• Denial/Shock



• Anger/Frustration



• Depression/Detachment



• Dialogue/Bargaining



• Acceptance

You will go through this, in your own time, in your own way. Something to remember is this -- the hardest part to get through is the depression. If you followed the link and looked at the different diagrams, the ones I think make the most sense are the ones with the loopy helix-type "paths" -- b/c the grieving process tends to be less direct and more circuitous in reality. And every time we hit the depression border -- that's where we tend to cycle back into one of the other stages -- because our unconscious tries to protect us from the pain of the depression. But, until we get through it, we are stuck. You can't get to acceptance without going through the sadness.

Just like you can't get back on the ground and in the flow of a happy, healthy, productive life without taking that leap off the stony precipice and back into the world.

But you can do it. We're all doing it, or trying to, or failing, learning and trying again. But you can do it.

[eyvindr]

From: "We're just not right for each other"

I can totally relate to this.

It's funny, but this is sort of how I feel about me and my ex. We just aren't right for each other. To a certain extent I feel like everything that happened between us was just details. When you boil everything down, the overarching issue is the fact that who she is at her core is just not the sort of person I can be in a healthy relationship with. Nor am I the type of person that is good for her. I've sort of just accepted that it happened, and that it was inevitable from the start because of who we are.

Thanks for sharing, Rise.

[eyvindr]

Fantastic post on how BPD works by cosmonaut, in response to Riddler (my highlights).

Quote from: TheRiddler on Today at 02:35:34 AM

I'm trying to just get this situated in my mind as her being borderline, but some things don't seem to fit. I've read quite a few accounts on these boards and I don't recall one where the pwBPD says the couple should take a break. When she first told me of "the break," she also told me she'd been thinking about it for a while. Aren't people suffering from BPD more impulsive than that? It's confusing.

It is quite common that a partner with BPD will stop the relationship. This is one of the tragic contradictions of the disorder. While pwBPD are terrified of abandonment and desperately seek to prevent it, they also often experience what is known as engulfment. Engulfment is also a terrifying experience, and it is a feeling that they are losing themselves in someone else - that they are being swallowed up and will cease to exist. This is one of the consequences of a pwBPD not having a fully formed self, which many experts believe to be at the very core of the disorder. So, often a pwBPD feels these back and forth swings in relationships between fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment. This is what gives rise to the heartbreaking push/pull dynamic of the disorder. Eventually these fears and emotions can become so overwhelming that the BPD partner leaves the relationship, because they simply have to run from the emotion the only way left.

I can't prove it, but I sincerely believe that many pwBPD enter into relationships with absolute sincerity. They really do love, admire, and desire their partners. They want things to work. They want to live happily ever after. They hope beyond hope that they have found the perfect love they seek who will finally love them forever and complete them. But as the relationship builds and the couple become ever more emotionally intimate, all of the core fears of the disorder become activated. The BPD partner becomes hyper-vigilant to abandonment, certain that they are unworthy and incapable of being loved and that once their partner realizes this they will leave. Every word and every action of their partner is increasingly scrutinized through this lens of mistrust. Meanwhile, there is this growing feeling that they are losing themselves. That they are ceasing to exist in someone else, and there are desperate attempts to assert independence and self-sufficiency. Eventually, it often reaches a point where the pwBPD can no longer stand the overwhelming emotions their partner is triggering, and they leave. So, while pwBPD do tend to be impulsive, and the act of leaving itself may be impulsive, it is most likely that there has been a long build up behind the scenes with the pwBPD struggling with raging emotions they can neither control nor cope with. It is critical to realize, however, that while you are a trigger for your ex, you are NOT the cause. You didn't cause her to feel these things, and honestly she didn't either. This is her disorder at work. This is what the disorder does, because it is evil and awful. But, can you understand now, why she can't stand to have anything to do with you? It's not because she doesn't care. It's the exact opposite. It's because she cares more than she can handle.

My own ex had times when, after my pushing her to try and resolve her chronic silent treatments, she would try and have us take a "break." I think it was her way of trying to maintain the relationship while having the space to reduce the overwhelming feelings. She told me a number of times that the last thing she wanted was for us to break up. I believe her. I suspect that your ex feels the same. She just doesn't know what else to do. Unfortunately, this is not something that you can fix. Neither can I. We are triggers and we must understand that.

Quote from: TheRiddler on Today at 04:07:07 AM

I just can't stop thinking I should have been more proactive about moving the relationship forward... she talked about it, but I just didn't understand. sad

I read articles and message board posts and it just feels like, though no one can really say, I don't have much of a chance of anything in the future with her, that she just fell out of love with me and I'm forever a person she'd not want to be with. I'm really tired of thinking this stuff, but it's fully inhabiting my mind, and therapy and meds are of some help but the thoughts remain. They're such scary, hopeless thoughts.

I've thought about reaching out to see if she's completely written me off, but I don't know if she'd even know.

Everyone has regrets about relationships, even lasting relationships. We all make mistakes and wish that we had done things differently. This is to be human. Please, do understand, however, that there is nothing you could have done to prevent this break up. I am very sorry to have to say that, because I know firsthand how much that thought hurts. The tragedy is that you could never be perfect enough -- even if you were perfection itself. The fears inherent in BPD are triggered by intimacy. It is a terrible tragedy, but the better and more loving of a partner you are, the more the disorder tends to be triggered. Ultimately, your ex is never going to be able to have a stable relationships with anyone unless she is able to begin the very difficult task of healing her disorder -- and that means developing an autonomous self. I feel very sorry for both of you, because this is truly neither of your faults. This is the miserable disorder.

No one, except God, can say if you will be able to continue a relationship with this woman. She may not even be able to say herself, because her emotions are so shifting. There is an overwhelming chance that she does miss you terribly and this is breaking her heart to leave you, but she is doing everything possible to ignore and suppress that, because it is more pain than she can bare. She not only has emotions of extreme intensity, she also has extremely limited ability to cope with them. She has only a limited number of very primitive coping mechanisms and none of them are healthy. One of her tasks in therapy will be to learn to deal with stress and emotions in a more healthy manner. I know you want to be with her, and I know how much you want to know if you will be able to. I don't want to lie to you, however. There is certainly a chance that you will be able to get back together, but there is no guarantee. It is impossible to put some sort of percentage on that. Everyone and every relationship is unique and having a BPD partner doesn't change that. There is just no way to know. That is why I and other members have advised you as we have. Spend the time now to work on yourself, and if she comes back then you will be in a far better position to provide the kind of relationship with the most lasting chance of stability. We must remember, however, that ultimately only she can truly conquer this disorder and she has to do that alone.

Quote from: TheRiddler on Today at 07:05:40 AM

I've heard many times on this forum (and have been told, specifically) that having no contact with an ex pwBPD is the most probable way they'll re-engage, but point 8 of the "bpdfamily.com" article (https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality) says "absence generally makes the heart grow colder." These seem to be two conflicting ideas to me.

Yes, this is true. Absence does tend to make the heart grow colder. I think that is true for most everyone, but it seems to be more true for pwBPD. pwBPD have problems with object constancy. This is object relations theory, and I don't understand it on any sort of deep level, so I will have to forgo trying to explain it. However, pwBPD have trouble in realizing that there is constancy in things like love. They tend to believe that since their emotions are constantly in flux, that reality is constantly in flux. As you are noticing, BPD is full of contradictions. It is a disorder that seems to be a paradox inside of a paradox. Your ex is not well. She has a serious mental illness. This is not her fault in any way. But it does mean that she is not experiencing and reacting to the world in a rational, healthy way. It may be very hard to understand this, because it is deeply disordered thinking. There is a certain internal logic to the disorder, however, and learning about this could be helpful for you to gain a better insight and context into your ex's thinking and behavior. For me, it has been very helpful in depersonalizing the experience. We are not the bad guys and we are not the cause of the breakup or of our ex's suffering. Please keep that in mind.

I hope that helps. I feel for you. I remember very much what it felt like in the wake of my ex leaving me, and how shattered I felt. How desperate I was to win her back and how much I wanted to fix things. I had to realize all of the things that I am now telling you, however, and they have indeed been bitter pills to swallow. I am only trying to tell you the truth, so that you can begin to take the best steps for you, and to have what I believe are the best chances of a future relationship with your ex. I can tell you from personal experience, that the pain will dull with time. Hang in there.

[Suzn]

Hey e

You said a couple of things that caught my eye. One of which rings a bell for me.

You were the oldest of 8 children. Wow, a lot of responsibility there, no? Watching over 7 younger siblings.

You said until you all we adults there was little or no saying, so I'm assuming no hearing as well(?), I love you? Children need to hear this, it would go to being valued.

The bell ringer for me was "they did the best they could." I'm sure you're right, 8 children is a lot of work. But... .individually how well were your emotional needs met? I could see you being relied on as the oldest, did you put your needs aside a lot?

I could be way off base here e however I said the same thing about my mother doing the best she could for years. In fact, I had defended her for as long as I can remember until I started digging into my own issues. Why was I Codependent? Behaviors tell a story and even though the story can vary it can end up with similar results. (Such as grey kitty and I talking about our need to be right in his recent thread here in PI. Opposite childhood experience but similar outcome.)

The fact that there were 8 children in your family had to be hard sometimes when someone might need some more individual attention and not getting it for the simple fact your parents were very busy. Could it be triggering for someone to be giving you that individual attention? I hesitate to use the word crave, for some reason I wouldn't see you acknowledging a craving for that.

I have been told by my T that people who have been very kind are triggering for me since I never really got individual attention. I was just an extension of my mother, I don't know that we share that part but still different circumstances can still lead to similar outcomes. It took me a loong time to see that. I was most definitely a slow learner there too.

[eyvindr]

Hi suzn -- nice to hear from you.

Thanks for the feedback -- I really appreciate it. To answer your question, no -- I'd never thought of this. It's interesting, and I could see where it may apply to some extent. Not sure in what sense you're using "triggering." I've been kind of thinking that one of the big reasons that I may have been attracted to the partners I've had has been because they've offered me the attention that I didn't get from my parents as a kid. And I've pretty much accepted for awhile that my upbringing pretty much trained me to be a caretaker, bordering on codependent -- and my mom is clearly still pretty codependent, though she's gotten better over the years, I think mainly due to all of us kids "aging out." But she'll still get weird at times, and act all guilty -- my youngest sister described it as "she's always squirrelly," and that kind of hits it on the head, in terms of the way seemingly simple situations can at times cause her to behave in anxious ways. But, this isn't about my mom's behavior, after all.

I'm pretty sure I don't push back when people are trying to be kind to me -- is that what you mean? I did have to work at learning to become comfortable relying on other people -- I'm definitely self-reliant and strongly independent, and I mostly like it, but I've learned that there are times when I need to turn to other people for help. Where I get triggered is when people I care about start telling me what I should be doing, or have to do, for them -- when I already feel like I'm giving as much as I can or want to give (and I recognize there's a difference there, too). I understand that all of us have different emotional needs, and within a relationship, both parties need to compromise at times -- to meet in the middle in order to make things not only work, but thrive. But there are limits, and I don't tolerate clearly stated personal boundaries being trampled in the name of "caring."

Does that make sense? Are you seeing something that I'm missing? -- I often think that must be it, and why I keep feeling like I haven't been able to figure this out for myself. Did I interpret your response in the way you intended?

Thanks again, suzn -- always appreciate your insights.

[Suzn]

Thanks e, very kind of you.

Triggered as in being drawn to that person. It doesn't necessarily mean a romantic attraction but a draw in general though that did play a role in the draw to my exBPDgf.

I wouldn't say this is about your mom's behaviors however our "conditioning" generally starts at home. Our core beliefs and our behaviors originate in family. Identifying what was missing seemed to help me see what draws me in. I stick close to family behaviors when working to better understand more about my own if that makes sense.

[Suzn]

And I've pretty much accepted for awhile that my upbringing pretty much trained me to be a caretaker, bordering on codependent -- and my mom is clearly still pretty codependent, though she's gotten better over the years, I think mainly due to all of us kids "aging out." But she'll still get weird at times, and act all guilty -- my youngest sister described it as "she's always squirrelly," and that kind of hits it on the head, in terms of the way seemingly simple situations can at times cause her to behave in anxious ways.

I did have to work at learning to become comfortable relying on other people -- I'm definitely self-reliant and strongly independent, and I mostly like it, but I've learned that there are times when I need to turn to other people for help.

I get triggered is when people I care about start telling me what I should be doing, or have to do, for them -- when I already feel like I'm giving as much as I can or want to give (and I recognize there's a difference there, too).

I don't tolerate clearly stated personal boundaries being trampled in the name of "caring."

I highlighted a couple things you said, a lot of which I can relate to. The last sentence up there, where did that come from? It's similar to being triggered when someone pushes you to do more, where did that come from?

I know your original questions are about how you keep finding women with issues. However maybe it's a good idea to look deeper into your mother's behaviors, you might find some similarities with these women.

You say your mom is Codependent, so is my mother. But there are some deeper issues with my mother, which I found when I started looking deeper into the causes of my codependency. My mother lost her mother in her early 20s, I don't think she grieved this loss. I think she shut down. Emotionally unavailable from that point forward. In fact she admitted to me recently she didn't feel she truly loved us when we were young, at least not in the way she loves her grandson. I question if she knows what she feels now. You would never know this about her, not even years after knowing her. She appears to be a kind and giving person, she's a people pleaser after all.

Codependence is self centered and fearful. Which brings anxiety. Guilt is a big part too. I'm just noting some similarities in what you've said about your mother here. To what severity, I wouldn't know.

My mother gets triggered with us and she gets squirrelly too. I guess I should get to the point, we are drawn to what we know. I don't know that it matters what the label is it's simply emotionally deficient issues and how they play out. How they molded US as children and what we brought with us into adulthood.

The oldest of 8, were you parentified? Just curious, I was.

I found a couple of links to share with you. One seems to be for couples but the gist of it is good. How to form a solid foundation in a relationship, I took notes for myself. Anyway, the titles may seem presumptuous, not my intention however these types of articles helped me figure out why I kept looking in the wrong places. I had to sit remember things from my childhood, it's a puzzle to me, these dynamics. Everything I've quoted of yours, some similarities I've shared and information in these links are pieces of a puzzle only you can put together. That is if any match.

I don't mind sharing that at 50 yrs old and after several years of therapy I'm finally putting the last few pieces of mine together. And you thought YOU were a slow learner. Ha!

www.jameswatkins.com/articles-2/hopeful/courtship/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/tech-support/201405/why-your-partner-may-be-your-parent

[eyvindr]

ha! -- you're younger than me, Suzn!

I do see similarities -- thanks for the help. I'll read over these articles and respond. Thanks, Suzn.

The last sentence, about not tolerating my boundaries being trampled -- was just expressing that I've come a long way from overlooking that kind of stuff, mainly by chalking it up to someone having good intentions but not recognizing the line between trying to help and trying to dictate another person's behaviors. In my most recent r-ship, I felt routinely attacked by my ex, and when I'd stand up for myself, she'd get defensive and try to turn it around and say that I was the one being defensive -- when all I was doing was refusing to be held accountable for causing her negative feelings, which were based on inaccurate assumptions. She'd accuse me of being thoughtless and uncaring, which is the last thing I ever am with the people I love -- and claim that she was only telling me these things because she loved me and wanted us to be happy.

SO much of our time in that r-ship was spent locked in that dynamic, and so much of my emotional energy was exhausted trying to make sense of that dysfunctional BS! She never ever once fully took responsibility for doing that. It was like her final trump card -- the most accountability she'd take for anything negative was 50%. So, in order for me to ever get a so-called apology, I had to agree that I was 50% responsible for things I didn't have anything to do with.

Of course, I understand that better now. In her bippidee brain, she wasn't really ever responsible for anything, so 50% accountability for anything was a pretty serious commitment. Because her feelings dictated every thought she had, to her thinking, I was 100% responsible for everything she felt -- simply by existing. I didn't have to do anything. I just had to be here. Ack.

[livednlearned]

Hi eyvindr,

I'm late to the party. Really respect how much work you're doing to understand this.

I really connected with your original post when you detail all the relationships you've had, each one a problem in its own way. My history is similar. Not a whole lot of healthy guys and definitely the same pattern wearing different clothing throughout all my relationships. I appear to have changed this pattern with the man I'm currently dating. There's hope 

This was great:

Cliff's notes:  Poor choices likely tied to unconscious labeling of insecure women as archetypes, based on childhood models and impressions.

It's probably true, and like Suzn and Pingo said, worth digging into much deeper. Your mother lost her mother at a young age. Very likely, given the generation this occurred, that no one helped her process these feelings of grief. My father's mother experienced the same loss. Your mother likely set the emotional tone in the family. Being that many men are raised to repress feelings, this work would fall to her. If she did not have full access to her feelings, it would be difficult for you to have access to all of yours. When we repress powerful and difficult feelings like grief of a parent, we turn off not just the negative feelings we don't want to feel, but a whole bunch of other ones.

Your parents could be wonderful, decent people with the best intentions, who truly love their children. You may have felt loved even if it was not expressed. But on a day to day basis, if grief has been repressed, then there will be a tremendous numbing that runs deep. If your mother entered therapy to deal with these feelings of grief, it's likely that they would spring out of her with a force that surprised her, and you, as though she lost her mother yesterday. My grandmother was 6 when her mother died and that grief turned to anger and paranoia, a type of numbing (anger being a secondary emotion). I can see now that she was emotionally stuck somewhere around the age that her mother died. This affected my dad, who learned to repress feelings. Then he put a lot of effort into turning off emotions in our family. Not just his own, but all of us. My parents have been married 50 years, I was raised in a stable two-parent home, we had everything you could ask for, etc. But emotionally, it was pretty much a slow drip.

This is basic on the intergenerational family systems theory that Murray Bowen developed. Sometimes you have to go back a generation or two, or three, to figure out the patterns. You're carrying the pattern forward, in all likelihood, without recognizing where it started. It probably feels like your choices in partners don't make sense because your family was xyz, but the pattern you're looking for is actually abc. It's the emotional thread. It will be hard to see with your head if you haven't felt it with your heart, is the best way I can say it.

Unfortunately for people like us who are accomplished in our heads, this work cannot be intellectualized. You have to feel it, and that's hard. I think it might be even harder if your family is in any way normal or upstanding. It feels guilty to go back to deep childhood feelings and really cry that sh!t out. It can be small things, like your parents ignored you once baby #2 came along. And then #3, and then #4. You had to grow up young and stuff your feelings because you didn't have a mom or dad who could say, "eyvindr, you feel sad because now there are 4 kids instead of you, and that's hard. You had all our attention, and now we're outnumbered and it probably feels like you aren't as important anymore. But you are. You'll always be our first born and that's a special place."

And then hold you while you cried, comforting you because your mom (especially her) knew that crying it out meant you could process the sadness and survive it, and then move one. Since she could not do that, being sad or feeling grief would be terrifying for her. What if she never stopped?

When you work on this stuff, it hurts. And guilt will make an appearance. It's kinda like anxiety, in that it tries to make a deal to prevent you from feeling all the other feelings that want a shot at center stage. Anxiety and guilt are like thugs, always wheeling and dealing and trying to strike deals.

Once you unplug those old feelings, the rest tend to start flowing and suddenly you have the whole package. And those feelings take care of you. They protect you from making decisions with only your intellect. They steer you away from danger and let you be the whole and healthy person you are.

We make it so complicated. It really isn't. It just hurts to get there, and we don't like pain.

[jhkbuzz]

Hi eyvindr,

I'm late to the party. Really respect how much work you're doing to understand this.

I really connected with your original post when you detail all the relationships you've had, each one a problem in its own way. My history is similar. Not a whole lot of healthy guys and definitely the same pattern wearing different clothing throughout all my relationships. I appear to have changed this pattern with the man I'm currently dating. There's hope  

This was great:

Cliff's notes:  Poor choices likely tied to unconscious labeling of insecure women as archetypes, based on childhood models and impressions.

It's probably true, and like Suzn and Pingo said, worth digging into much deeper. Your mother lost her mother at a young age. Very likely, given the generation this occurred, that no one helped her process these feelings of grief. My father's mother experienced the same loss. Your mother likely set the emotional tone in the family. Being that many men are raised to repress feelings, this work would fall to her. If she did not have full access to her feelings, it would be difficult for you to have access to all of yours. When we repress powerful and difficult feelings like grief of a parent, we turn off not just the negative feelings we don't want to feel, but a whole bunch of other ones.

Your parents could be wonderful, decent people with the best intentions, who truly love their children. You may have felt loved even if it was not expressed. But on a day to day basis, if grief has been repressed, then there will be a tremendous numbing that runs deep. If your mother entered therapy to deal with these feelings of grief, it's likely that they would spring out of her with a force that surprised her, and you, as though she lost her mother yesterday. My grandmother was 6 when her mother died and that grief turned to anger and paranoia, a type of numbing (anger being a secondary emotion). I can see now that she was emotionally stuck somewhere around the age that her mother died. This affected my dad, who learned to repress feelings. Then he put a lot of effort into turning off emotions in our family. Not just his own, but all of us. My parents have been married 50 years, I was raised in a stable two-parent home, we had everything you could ask for, etc. But emotionally, it was pretty much a slow drip.

This is basic on the intergenerational family systems theory that Murray Bowen developed. Sometimes you have to go back a generation or two, or three, to figure out the patterns. You're carrying the pattern forward, in all likelihood, without recognizing where it started. It probably feels like your choices in partners don't make sense because your family was xyz, but the pattern you're looking for is actually abc. It's the emotional thread. It will be hard to see with your head if you haven't felt it with your heart, is the best way I can say it.

Unfortunately for people like us who are accomplished in our heads, this work cannot be intellectualized. You have to feel it, and that's hard. I think it might be even harder if your family is in any way normal or upstanding. It feels guilty to go back to deep childhood feelings and really cry that sh!t out. It can be small things, like your parents ignored you once baby #2 came along. And then #3, and then #4. You had to grow up young and stuff your feelings because you didn't have a mom or dad who could say, "eyvindr, you feel sad because now there are 4 kids instead of you, and that's hard. You had all our attention, and now we're outnumbered and it probably feels like you aren't as important anymore. But you are. You'll always be our first born and that's a special place."

And then hold you while you cried, comforting you because your mom (especially her) knew that crying it out meant you could process the sadness and survive it, and then move one. Since she could not do that, being sad or feeling grief would be terrifying for her. What if she never stopped?

When you work on this stuff, it hurts. And guilt will make an appearance. It's kinda like anxiety, in that it tries to make a deal to prevent you from feeling all the other feelings that want a shot at center stage. Anxiety and guilt are like thugs, always wheeling and dealing and trying to strike deals.

Once you unplug those old feelings, the rest tend to start flowing and suddenly you have the whole package. And those feelings take care of you. They protect you from making decisions with only your intellect. They steer you away from danger and let you be the whole and healthy person you are.

We make it so complicated. It really isn't. It just hurts to get there, and we don't like pain.

OMG that ^ might be one of the most amazing things I've ever read.

My grandmother (mom's side) lost her mom when she was six or seven... .just a few years after they emigrated from Italy to NY. Family of 7 children, father left alone to raise them, step mother eventually appeared but I think my grandmother's r/s with her stepmother was pretty strained.

My mom & grandmother always had a difficult r/s... .my grandmother always seemed immature to me, kind of histrionic. And controlling.  My mom spent a large part of her adult life trying to get out from under her... .they went decades without talking.

It amazes me that before your post that I have never really considered how my grandmother's experiences may have impacted my life.

[Suzn]

E your triggers existed long before your last relationship. They are evidence of your core beliefs. Tracing back where they developed and what our core beliefs are helps us become more self aware. When we understand ourselves better we are more capable of recognizing behavior patterns in others earlier on. So it becomes easier to see the flags... .and we all have some flags of our own. Seeing our own flags helps us recognize flags in others, I can't emphasize that enough.

[eyvindr]

Suzn and livednlearned --

Thank you both for weighing in, and for your kind encouragement -- and solid feedback. I really appreciate this.

The last two stints I had on these boards, I began the process of shifting my focus away from what happened to me in past r-ships, and towards why I kept finding myself in r-ships with partners who had similar issues -- the whole repeated patterns thing. Both times, the same thing happened -- first, I hit a wall, as far as being able to get to the root issues, and second, I reconciled with my ex. So, in short -- I didn't finish the course, as it were.

This time, I have nothing to lose, and a lot to gain, personally, from making some sense of all of this. So, again -- I really appreciate everyone's help, insights, feedback and occasional kick in the ass when I need it!

So -- Suzn: I read the articles. Thank you again for pointing me to them. From the first article -- I'm slightly familiar with the whole Harville Hendrix thing; my ex and I actually had two sessions with an IMAGO therapist, and I was excited to work with her, but as you might expect, we never got very far. But, I'm familiar with the concept of two people being attracted to each other because of complementary core psychic wounds. Makes a lot of sense to me.

I got a lot more out of the second article. I've been meaning to dig deeper into the attachment type literature for a few years now, but haven't made it happen. This reinforces the importance that I need to do that. After all, this is the key question I keep asking:

How do insecurely attached people attract mates? After all, we all want a securely attached partner—one who’s emotionally available, loving, supportive, dependable—not an insecure or clingy one, or someone who’s detached and uncommunicative. How do we get roped in?

Later in the article, this description of the difference between “fearful” and “dismissing" avoidant attachment styles:

Avoidant attachment yields two different separate behaviors—“fearful” and “dismissing.” Fearful avoidants have a negative self-image, but are also passive and dependent; they actually want intimacy but they are also desperately afraid of being hurt and distrust others. Fearful avoidants are the hardest category of insecure people to partner with because they send out mixed signals. The dismissing avoidant has a more positive self-image but would also agree with the following statement: I am comfortable without close emotional relationships. It is very important to me to feel independent and self-sufficient and I prefer not to depend on others and have others depend on me.

I've recognized for some time in myself a streak of the avoidant attachment style. I wouldn't say I'm "comfortable" without close emotional r-ships -- but I am able to be happy alone, even content, in times when I'm not involved in a serious r-ship. But I deeply value strong, close emotional r-ships -- it's my definition of friendship, really. And I love my friends! (Interestingly, my ex hated it whenever I said anything to the effect -- can still picture her rolling her eyes and hear her saying, in her best Eeyore impression, "Oh, you don't have to say it -- we all know how much you lo-o-o-o-o-ove your friends" -- like she was describing some out of control fixation on, say, beach volleyball!)

The last sentence is definitely something I've said about myself many times. And I'm sure it comes from my upbringing -- as both of you pick up on, I was given a lot of responsibility as a kid, simply because I was the oldest. It's still easy for me to recall the messaging that I heard repeatedly: "you need to set an example for your sisters and brother" and "keep an eye on everyone." I have only a vague memory of ever disappointing either of my parents in that role -- I was lucky, nothing horrible ever happened, and I was also pretty good at it -- so I don't recall ever being held responsible for anything happening. I do recall, however, my younger sibs -- particularly one sister and my brother when he was a kid (birth order here is Me, S, S, B, S, S, S, S) -- trying to "get me in trouble" for reasons I never understood. So, there was some blaming that went on, over ridiculous crazy kid crap, nothing serious, that I would be held accountable for -- and I remember resenting being punished for things I didn't do. I still have a strong need for fairness and equal treatment, and I can get pretty riled if I feel like I or someone I care about is being wrongly accused or cast in a negative light that isn't accurate. I'm a little OCD about that, probably, which can make me prickly at times.

livednlearned -- thanks for the very insightful feedback. A past counselor I worked with touched a little on the generation stuff when he and I first began working together -- it's where I became fascinated by the whole birth order thing. Actually checked out a few books on it at the time -- but the titles I chose were way too dry and dense to hold my interest. I think you've hit on something -- about my mother very likely not having ever been able to really grieve for the loss of her mother. She was just a child when she lost her -- and she was pretty much summarily deposited, along with her older brother, into the arms of her deceased mother's family, while her father did his thing -- which was typical in those days, it seems -- he was a man, he went to work, raising kids was a woman's role. His first two kids weren't returned to their father's care until he had remarried and his new wife began having kids. I guess at that point, people felt like it was the right time -- ? I don't know -- I didn't live back than. I've always been kind of horrified at how perfunctory these decisions used to be -- like everything was just one more chore. People didn't seem to spend much time on emotions back then. I suppose there was just too much to do to simply survive.

But I can see where, if I was raised by a mother who was in a more or less continual state of denial, always suppressing very strong and even primal emotions, the model that formed my impressions of women would be pretty unhealthy, if not warped. Or maybe just limited? It does feel sad to think about it, and I agree with you -- it's probably simpler than I think, and we do all try to avoid pain. Until we have no choice. And I feel like I want to be there. Thank you.

Give me more. I can't stay now -- I have to go to the gym. But thank you both again. Very much!

[Suzn]

I could see where there would be some resentment when you were punished for things you didn't do. Fair is fair, right?

It doesn't sound very fair that you were always expected to set the example and to watch everyone. When did you get to be a child?

Children need to feel carefree and feel cared FOR. Teaching responsibility is a good thing however it can be taken too far. How often did you put your needs aside as a child looking after 7 younger children? How often did you get to play with your friends away from your siblings? I'm going to assume a little here that it wasn't often since you say you felt naive later on. How social were you as a child/teen?

After reading back over your r/s history it doesn't look like you put your needs first till after your marriage, with the gf before you were divorced. How much of respecting your first gf wishes had to do with you wanting her to like you?

You didn't mention how long your relationships were except for one, was it the longest? Just curious, you had a lot of good things to say about her and the other one that you had fond memories of. With those two it seems the common denominator was FUN/PLAY.

You definitely have a caretakers history. I'd like to hear more about your childhood, what did it look like? What was school like? What were your daily responsibilities? Did your mother confide in you on grown up matters or just count on you as a childcare provider? There's some parentification in your past for certain, how much is unclear.

I get that with a large family that the oldest child would inevitably get a lot of responsibility as par for the course however you have, admittedly, behavior patterns and core beliefs that have ended you up in relationships that were unhealthy. Those patterns and beliefs came from somewhere and we're starting to see where.

[Suzn]

I meant to add, you also mentioned "fun" with your exBPDw.

[livednlearned]

A past counselor I worked with touched a little on the generation stuff when he and I first began working together -- it's where I became fascinated by the whole birth order thing. Actually checked out a few books on it at the time -- but the titles I chose were way too dry and dense to hold my interest. I think you've hit on something -- about my mother very likely not having ever been able to really grieve for the loss of her mother... .People didn't seem to spend much time on emotions back then. I suppose there was just too much to do to simply survive.

I don't know. There are plenty of healthy, connected but poor families with lots of chores, who have endured tremendous suffering.   I remember reading in a book by Gabor Mate (Canadian psychiatrist) about how wars create such unimaginable suffering that entire generations can be broken by emotional loss. He speculates that the generations following WWI and II would definitely be impacted, not just the generation that lived through the wars, but all of the ones following.

A book that helped me put the intergenerational pieces of the puzzle together was Dance of Connection by Harriet Lerner. But she usually writes for women, so I don't know if her style would appeal. She popularizes some of the dry family systems theory stuff. I don't know what psychologists think of her (she's a Phd, but her style is def pop psychology), but I finally *got* it while reading her stuff. She made me understand something important about Karpmann drama triangles and codependence that has stuck with me.

But I can see where, if I was raised by a mother who was in a more or less continual state of denial, always suppressing very strong and even primal emotions, the model that formed my impressions of women would be pretty unhealthy, if not warped.

I don't know if it's just that your impressions of women was formed by her, although that may certainly be part of it. It's more that you would not experience healthy emotional connections with one of the most significant people in your early life. You wouldn't even know it was missing because in so many other ways she was there for you, doing what regular mothers do. You wouldn't realize that something emotional wasn't happening. So then you go off into the world with your conditioning, looking for love without having the full basket of emotions you need to replicate healthy intimate love. We pass this stuff on. You inherited the family script that she inherited. Now it's time for you to figure out what this means for you. And by figure out, that means feel. A lot of the second-guessing and doubting about whether someone is healthy, or can be trusted -- that goes away when you clean house. Because suppressing some feelings seems to suppress a whole bunch of them, and you need those, just like you need your eyes and ears.

[eyvindr]

From anxiety5, over here: "Re: I figured it all out. There is no more confusion"

"You are on a journey. Each person here is. You are welcome and I'm glad I could help. But, let us not forget, I used to post in the staying forums, I used to think I could somehow not invest myself emotionally and thus keep myself from being hurt. I used to think I could fix everything. I used to think we could be friends, I used to think we could still talk and somehow I would have the strength to enforce boundaries.

Today I have accepted that I was used. I accept that the relationship was a lie. I accept that I tried to fix someone. I accept that I tried to change our relationship. I accept that I was determining my self worth through someone else reinforcing that I was worthy of love. I accept that I did not leave even after I realized it really bad and not fixable.

I accept my role but you know what? I have learned SO much. Take things slow. Build my self confidence. Never again isolate myself from friends and family. Always pay attention to someone's actions not words. Always trust your intuition. If someone cheats on me, the relationship ends immediately. No exceptions. Maybe some can forgive this, but through the identification of my core values, that unfortunately for me is a total 100% deal breaker. I learned you can not change someone else, and if you are the only one trying to make a relationship better, it's not a relationship. I learned to have self respect. I learned that love is not abusive, it is not unfaithful, it doesn't always have to win arguments, it isn't controlling. It doesn't seek isolation from your friends. It isn't cruel and it doesn't give you silent treatments.

There are things about this relationship that I learned about myself that would only have been possible through going through this hell. That is my gift. The gift of self awareness, personal empowerment, the gift of figuring out who Iam, what matters to me, and how I can find all of those things within myself and don't need someone else to validate my self worth. That in itself means I will never fall for love bombing again. Those deficits that the manipulator filled are gone. I'm not perfect, but I'm perfectly happy with who Iam. I don't need someone's approval to feel good about myself. More than anything I realized this. You are in control of your own life. You are in control of tomorrow. Nobody else. They do not have power over you.

As far as the hurt you feel, I get all of that. Don't beat yourself up for ruminating, that's how you figure out all the areas you need to work on and what you may have missed or ignored. These people are like drug addicts though. They are addicted to a supply to feed their ego. Suppose your sibling left his family, abandoned his kids and wife, left his job and ended up living under a bridge. Each and every one of these things would be a separate tragedy that would hurt you so badly. Why did they do these things? But suppose I tell you that your sibling is a heroin addict. Suddenly you get it. It's not that his wife or his kids or his job or life weren't good enough. He is an addict. That's what addicts do as their addiction consumes them. They lose everything. It is still sad, but suddenly you realize that everything that happened was predictable and most importantly it's the nature of an addict. This doesn't make the hurt go away but it does provide one invaluable asset to your recovery. THIS PERSON AND THEIR ACTIONS IS THEIR PATHOLOGY. It has NOTHING to do with you not being good enough, attractive enough, smart enough, wealthy enough, etc. The ultimate gift is the ability to realize that they have a condition that much like an addict consumes and runs their lives, hence the trail of destruction. Therefore you can leave these situations with your dignity intact, it wasn't you that failed, there is nothing from their rejection to take personally no matter how cruel, how mean, how irrational it's their pathology, not you or anything you did. Nobody can ever understand how an addict can be happy living under a bridge alone and destitute. Likewise, we can't figure out why these people do the things they do either by living their lives in a state of chaos and destruction.  In both cases, its their underlying condition that drives it. Therefore there is no sense on trying to figure it out.

These realizations helped me let go. You are not weak, you are strong. Think of how much you took, how much you dealt with and how through all of it you still had more to give. That is STRENGTH. That is a STRONG will. This is your foundation for a better tomorrow. You just need to spend that energy on someone capable of loving you back.

You did everything you could. You can't quit something when the other person isn't trying. But you can accept that you've tried as hard as you could, you've exhausted every outlet and nothing got better. You can realize you deserve and want more out of a relationship. And you can find all the gifts within yourself to build that foundation of a better future moving forward.

It's a process. The fact you are here means you are ready. And you WILL succeed. You don't need anyone to believe in you, as long as you believe in yourself."

[Perfidy]

Passionate post eyvindr, just wondering, do we limit our self by believing in our self? Why must we believe anything at all? The next level. Beyond all belief. Infinite. Eternal. Indestructible. Our self. The possessor of mind and body. The part of self that self is built and owned by is perfect. The part that can't be found among it's parts, but none the less, definitely exists and isn't dependent on belief. Only breath.

[Perfidy]

We call this our life.

[eyvindr]

Hi Perfidy -- I agree. Credit for that goes to anxiety5, who posted it on another thread. I just read it, and reposted it here, to add to my growing collection of epiphanies.

Separately, here's another kernel of wisdom gleaned from the boards:

My take on baggage is that most people have it by puberty, and may keep collecting more for a while after that... .perhaps quite a while after that. I'm looking at 50, I feel like I'm learning how to set down a lot of mine just now. However if I saw a profile that like "I have no baggage and you better not either" I'd interpret that as "I'm in denial about my baggage, and I'll blame you for anything that goes wrong in a r/s with you."

Whatever baggage you have, and however you dealt with it, by 50 you sure will have some history, at least!

This is pretty much my take on baggage, too... .and I would interpret such a statement similarly.

There's a Japanese art form called Kintsugi, fixing broken pottery with lacquer resin mixed with precious metals. It's based on a philosophy that "treats breakage and repair as part of the history of an object, rather than something to disguise."

People who deny their history by disguising their brokenness aren't likely to be fulfilling partners for people who acknowledge and embrace their brokenness, and want to repair and sublimate it to create the beautiful work of art of themselves.

[Mutt]

This is a worthwhile topic of discussion and is locked. A new and similar topic may be created.