Ready to leave uBPDh and have 2 young ones?

[HopefulOne44]

Greetings All,

I've been reading on the forum for about -wow - a year now I think, and am ready to take steps to make the leap from a marriage of 12 years (together 16), to (hopefully) an amicable co-parenting relationship (post divorce).

I would love to hear from anyone who is in a very similar situation, about how they worked the initial stages of leaving.  

Relevant Info:

> Tho' undiagnosed', I am certain H has BPD & poss NPD.

> He manifests ALL BPD symptoms that I can think of.

> He has never cheated (that I know of).

> Tho' physically intimidating, he has NEVER hurt me physically, or threatened me verbally with physical abuse.

> Our sons are 8 & almost 10.

> H is loving to our boys but ' his temper, outbursts, and the way he treats me has frightened them.

> We have had a classic 'rollercoaster' of a marriage, where there are 'ok', even happy times and then something sets him off.  

> When disregulated, he is verbally abusive and intimidating and it is impossible to reason with him.  

> When H is disregulated, I am in a complete 'catch 22', no matter what I say, how I say it, or if I DON'T say anything (DEARMAN not effective).

> We have tried about 10 sessions of couples therapy about a year and 1/2 ago and the T wasn't very effective.  More importantly however, the few moments where I got to speak (H dominated conversation) the concerns I had triggered H and caused worse issues for us.  At the time, I didn't know H had BPD.

> What brought me/us to this point in time:

> The general pattern of our our arguments has been:

  > His 'outbursts'(& my trying to deal with them)

  > His venting usually fizzles out

  > I am quiet (responsive & not ignoring H) for a while (recovering)

  > A general apology from H (used to until recently) - there is never anything 'specific' he apologizes for.  Occasionally he will apologizing for "getting too loud" (but feels he was entitled to be that upset, and that it would be reasonable that we would yell.)

  > Then we continue on as if nothing had happened.  

I have tried the entire marriage trying to reason with H, to come to some understanding of his perspective, to take into consideration my part in all this, and I finally came to a point of clarity where I now understand that H is incapable if seeing my side of things.  Our arguments have NEVER been 'resolved'.  He doesn't even  understand that concept -- "What does that mean, 'resolved'?" he asked me one time.

What is happening NOW is that we had a major 'blow out':

H was extremely upset that I slept in several days of 'our' ('his', in his mind) vacation.

My 'sleeping in' has been a trigger for him in the past (before I suspected he had BPD) so I have been very careful and even made it a point NOT to sleep in no the weekends, because of this.  

We had been doing 'ok' (no major blow ups) because we had finally filed bankruptcy (should have about 5 years ago) and it has taken nearly ALL pressure off of us in terms of finances.

Because of the relative calm, I was comfortable sleeping late (usually to about 10 am - btw I know that is 'extravagant' but I am a severely sleep-deprived mother, a teacher - 26+ hours a week, plus take care of most everything else.), but made sure that I asked H if he was bothered by my sleeping in.  

He said 'no... .I don't mind, I can't sleep late anyway'.  Well, I guess I did that too many days and he was upset, didn't say anything even when I asked what was wrong & then he blows up.

Right after initial blow up:

Me: "Why didn't you say anything... You knew I was concerned about how you felt about my sleeping in"

H: "I meant maybe until 9am for a day or two, not my whole vacation!"

Me: "You knew I was concerned, why didn't you say so & I would have gotten up early?"

H: "I shouldn't HAVE to! No one would ever think that would be ok when YOU have 'off' the whole summer, and I only have a week or two!

[And herein lies one big issue ----- DH resents that I teach and am at home w/the kids during the summer.  I do everything I normally do, except teach, so I don't 'sleep in'.  It's not like H is home to feed & be up w/the kids... .Another issue:  His idea of how much work I do for the family and my idea are WORLDS APART... .In fact our perspectives of who I am, what I mean by what I say, why I do what I do are completely different].

Then from there, H goes into a pretty much normal tirade of a mix if long-standing gripes and the recent things he's irate about.

This time however was particularly cruel and more things were added that included his family & friends.

I'm apparently a '___, b*tch, loud, abrasive, controlling, ill at ease & selfish'.  

The smile & gleam in his eye when he said straight to my face "You're a C*NT" broke my heart.  Well, if it can be anymore broken.

I started crying when he mentioned all his family and friends feel the same way (this was news to me, but in a way, it's not surprising, understanding more about BPD) he yelled "WHY ARE YOU CRYING?".

To complicate things:

Issue #1 - He is a longtime week smoker (on and off quitting) & I have partaken on and off, for several months over the years &  I am very clear on how the highs & withdrawals factor in to this.  I used to think it was only the 'withdrawal' (or not enough THC) that was the issue, but I know from my research that BPD is there regardless of usage.

Even at our best, our perspectives differ vastly and I still do things that anger him, etc... etc... etc...

This latest blow up he said that when I smoke, I'm the 'real' (my name) and when I'm sober, is when 'I do all this ___' (meaning all the things that bother him).

Issue #2 - Because of our extremely stressful financial situation (resulting from many of his decisions and unfortunate circumstances), and the fact that things were so bad that we were talking of divorce (and anytime he felt there was not enough money or money for what he wanted or he was going 'without', he always 'shot the messenger'-me), I had the thought to take out a payday loan one day to help things. I did this without his knowledge (bad I know but I felt I had no other choice really).  I did use only my credit, but as you can imagine, one thing led to another and several payday loans later he ended up finding out thru a 'fluke' (blessing?)... That was one of ugliest, shameful and horrible days of my life (I'll spare you), but I want to put it out there, that he now has this 'on his side', even tho' I have been faithful and honest THE ENTIRE 15 YEARS WE HAVE BEEN TOGETHER.

Anyway, what is DIFFERENT about 'this time' is that along with about 3 days of weird silence and very small passive aggressive moves on his behalf (this is normal) he is acting 'happy' ? Sort of.  And, he's going out of his way to (for example) have the kids speak respectfully to me (how hypocritical is my feeling).  It makes me feel like he's paving the way for when we split (never really fully 'decided' but I mentioned 'well I guess we need to look into a separation' when I asked him what I could do to 'fix things' if I didn't want to be high all the time and he said "I don't know), so he can say "even after you did this, look how supportive I was of you".

I'm so overwhelmed with all that has happened (I've documented/journaled a LOT) that it is hard for me to write this.

I am wondering what the first stages of separation looked like for you, when there were kids involved, no willingness from H to see his part in all this, and clear delusion on his behalf.  This isn't a case where someone cheated or physical abuse.  Nothing other than a horrible argument with all sorts of things H is terribly irritated by (and his family and friends).  

Weird silences, but then what?

Do I bring up separation?

Do I go about this 'incognito'?

What next steps did you take once you KNEW you wanted to 'end it'?

Please, if anyone can make sense of my post, I would love to hear from you and how it went/is going for you.

My heart goes out to you all.

Blessings... HopefulOne

[Mutt]

Hi Hopefule0ne44,



I'm sorry to hear he's being difficult when your simply trying to catch up on sleep and he's making you feel bad. Not fun!

I have 3 young kids, D9, S6, S3. I was frustrated and at my ropes and told my wife I wanted a divorce. I didn't know about BPD and that she fears abandonment. She started having an affair and left for the other man. She lacks a stable sense of self. Doesn't really know who she is and mirrors others.

She felt much shame and guilt from her affair ( living together ) and she often had borderline rages daily for several months. Some fights were hour long sessions, absolutely frustrating and emotionally draining. She blamed me for being abusive and it was not fun around the house. It was a very difficult time. She was having a dissociative phase. That said.

If you are really done. Leave quietly, if he senses abandonment the conflict is going to get much worse.

I have tried the entire marriage trying to reason with H, to come to some understanding of his perspective, to take into consideration my part in all this, and I finally came to a point of clarity where I now understand that H is incapable if seeing my side of things.

There's an awful lot of conflict and you mention co-parenting. When there's conflict in a marriage and the marriage ends. It doesn't necessarily mean the conflict ends. I parallel parent. Have you heard of parallel parenting?

[HopefulOne44]

Thank you for the reply and for the warm welcome, Mutt... .It is very appreciated.

Please forgive this brief reply but I'm pecking in the dark on my son's gamepad, hoping H won't wake.

Thank you for what you shared about your experience ... .I'm so sorry for what you have experienced.  Oh how I relate to long, terribly draining arguments.  Ours were mostly him venting and me sitting there petrified I'll say the wrong thing ... Of course I understand now that EVERYTHING I say will be 'the wrong thing'.

So, as far as 'leaving quietly', I'm not sure what that would look like.  We still have yet to 'discuss'... .things, but when we do, he won't have any answers for me ~~ it's always "IDK" -- but insread of going to counseling (which I did for my sanity, but said it was to see what I was doing wrong in our marriage ), this time I'm ready to say that I can't go on like this when there is no reason to think that things are going to change for us.  I would say something like:

"I could keep going to counseling, but that could take  years and there is no guarantee things will improve.  I'm cofused (not really anymore) and I am asking myself why you want to be with someone who is  (all those horrible things he lists), why u want to be together when u agree there are more things I do that bother u than make u happy.  If u feel that I'm only the 'real me' when smoking (I don't anymore) and I don't want to stay on a perpetual 'high', what can we do at this point?"

I would basically get him to verbalize there is no hope for improvement nd that there is nothing that can be done to change things (other than his suggestion to just stop being a DB). 

I would also say that being intimate would be difficult knowing 'how he feels about me and how upset I make him' & I know he doesn't want a sexless marriage.

I'm very concerned for that moment when he makes the realization that 'this is it'.

My hope is he will move out and stay with his dad who is 10 mins away.

I'm not sure how not to trigger abandonment in him but I will just continue to offer questions and hope we get to where we decide to split.

I have concerns about safety, about H fraking out in front of the kids (main concern) and poss control issues with money and the car.

I'm ready to be done.

I may have come across the term PP, but haven't read on it.  I'll do that tomorrow on break at work.  Thanks much for mentioning as I am very aware that I will never fully be free from this.  I do however want to have H in kid's lives to a meaningful extent.  I prak H will be able to bear this major wake up call.  He doesn't want to be alone wirh himself.  And, as far as how he feels about who has the real issue here, I suspect another wake up will be when he finds that every woman he is involved with turns out to be a 'snag' just like me.

Thanks again very much, Mutt (like your SN, btw).

More tomorrow... Blessings

Hopeful

[HopefulOne44]

LOL!  Not a short reply after all.

[Mutt]

LOL!  Not a short reply after all.

Not for a GamePad no, .

Ours were mostly him venting and me sitting there petrified I'll say the wrong thing ... Of course I understand now that EVERYTHING I say will be 'the wrong thing'.

I understand. BPD is an emotional based disorder and he has difficulties with regulating his emotions or self soothing. He is objectifying you when he is projecting he attaches his negative actions and emotions that he is not comfortable with on you.

oceanheart on objectifying the romantic partner.

We all know neediness is at the core of BPD and I think it has much to do with how people with BPD look at the world and at people. Distrust of others' motives (especially if the person with BPD was sexually abused) lends a coloring to all personal interactions: fear is a self-centered emotion, a defense mechanism. So if someone with BPD is driven by a deep and intense need to be loved while at the same time fearing the object of that love will go away or will hurt him/her, then it's easy to see that s/he will tend to view another AS an object, if that makes any sense.

Neediness and fear are all about what is happening to the person, and they leave little room for empathy or even awareness of anyone else's needs. In the same way as a person with NPD uses others as ego-gratifying objects that feed their "narcissistic supply", a person with BPD uses others as an outside means to comfort themselves and to perhaps even give themselves worth, which they believe they lack.

So, as far as 'leaving quietly', I'm not sure what that would look like.  We still have yet to 'discuss'... .things, but when we do, he won't have any answers for me ~~ it's always "IDK" -- but insread of going to counseling (which I did for my sanity, but said it was to see what I was doing wrong in our marriage )

MC is frustrating when a partner is disordered or a non-disorder is expecting the other person to change.

Nothing changes without change.

I made many appointments for MC when things were bad in my marriage to try to get help to move things in a healthier direction. My ex is undiagnosed as well ( i notice your H is undiagnosed in the thread title ) and MC didn't work. Our sessions were spent with her explaining to the T and often dissociating ( altering reality, events to match her out of place of feelings ) and I was presented to the T as the bad person.

In my case, the T's were not picking up on the Karpman Drama Triangle and she was vicitim and I the persecutor.

The Karpman  Triangle, described by Stephen Karpman and elaborated by many others, is a very useful tool for understanding "stuck" relationship dynamics. The idea is that we often find ourselves playing out scripts. These roles feel safe, as they are familiar; we slip into as comfortable as we sink into the us-shaped indent in our own beds. But they are very limiting. They keep us trapped.

The triangle in its simple form consists of three roles:



The roles are Persecutor, Victim, and Rescuer. We may start in one position, but as another (or others) shift around the triangle, so do we.

The Persecutor insists, "It's all your fault." The Persecutor is controlling, blaming, critical, oppressive, angry, authoritative, rigid, and superior.

The Victim is of course persecuted. The Victim's stance is "Poor me!" The Victim feels victimized, oppressed, helpless, hopeless, powerless, ashamed, and seems unable to make decisions, solve problems, take pleasure in life, or achieve insight. The Victim, if not being persecuted, will seek out a Persecutor and also a Rescuer who will "save" the day but also perpetuate the Victim's negative feelings.

The Rescuer's line is "Let me help you." A classic enabler, the Rescuer feels guilty if he/she doesn't rescue. Yet his/her rescuing has negative effects: It keeps the Victim dependent and gives the Victim permission to fail. It also keeps the Rescuer stuck in focusing energy on someone else's problems, not solving his/her own.

(For a fuller discussion of the triangle, see "The Three Faces of Victim" at https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108384.0.)

"I could keep going to counseling, but that could take  years and there is no guarantee things will improve.  I'm cofused (not really anymore) and I am asking myself why you want to be with someone who is  (all those horrible things he lists), why u want to be together when u agree there are more things I do that bother u than make u happy.  If u feel that I'm only the 'real me' when smoking (I don't anymore) and I don't want to stay on a perpetual 'high', what can we do at this point?"

He's indifferent and showing passive aggressiveness if he is procrastinating with counselling and as you say, he says you are the issue in the marriage. A relationship takes two people wanting to work on themselves in MC. Change doesn't come from someone else change comes from you.

If you say something like the following, it's likely he is going to show the same behaviors that he has exhibited for a length of time. Is he in therapy for himself and has a want to work on his issues?

I'm very concerned for that moment when he makes the realization that 'this is it'.

The this is it for you is something entirely different with a person that is disordered. His reality is as real to him as your reality is to you. BPD is ingrained in his personality and if he thinks you are the "the bad person" it may change for a little while into you being the "the good person" or idealized and the pendulum swings back to you being "the bad person".

He is mentally ill and saying this is it may trigger his fear of abandonment, it's much different for a person with a distorted belief system, this is something that he fears. I say this because you have a young family and whatever to make things smoother for you and not harder.

Under different circumstances where the other partner is reasonable, it makes sense to facilite the different needs of either parents and children. Your H telegraphs his neediness and insecurities. I would advise to treat divorce as a business transaction when you have made your mind up and prepare yourself to exit, if this is a choice you want to make.

Thanks much for mentioning as I am very aware that I will never fully be free from this.

I had to put a system in place to stop the bleeding, conflict and drama. It took time and practice and tweaking the formula to stop the conflict and whereas I had a life of chaos, I have a life with much peace now. You may be surprised at how things change, it takes two to tango and it takes one to stop the conflict. If he's as difficult as he is and my ex is a very High Conflict Personality, there are coping tools and strategies to end this.

I recommend familiarizing yourself with Bill Eddy's work.

www.highconflictinstitute.com/

Thanks again very much, Mutt (like your SN, btw)

You are welcome. Let go or be dragged.

You can turn the ship and set course for calmer waters. It only takes one person and not two to accomplish this goal. There is hope HopefulOne44


Hang in there.

--Mutt

[HopefulOne44]

Hello, Mutt and thank you so much for the very thoughtful and detailed reply. 

It is about dinner time & H is away at health club for a little bit & should be home anytime now so I may need to end abruptly and finish from the library tomorrow as I want to address your comments.

There is a bit of an update tho' in that H came over and hugged me this morning (asking for a 'two arms hug' from me) and, as I was leaving with the kids for school, he ran out the Kindle he bought with his bonus $ (that he knew I planned to return to him because I said it would be so hard for me to use the gift when "I slept in so many days on your vacation". Altho' I say this to him, I really feel angry, not guilty.  And, I don't want to use the Kindle because I can see that doing so might be used against me later.

So, right now, he is turning into Dr. Jekyll .(My way of coping has been a conscious decision to see him as two different people and treat him accordingly.  Unfortunately, I can't live with Mr. Hyde too, anymore.) this derails my plan of a discussion (that would hopefully lead to a decision to separate).  No worry tho' as I know there will be some other opportunity that will come up and my resolve will not have waned.  In fact I will use this 'down time' to prepare in every way possible, so I suppose this is a good thing.

To show you his frame of mind, btw, after he said all those horrible things, he came to me later about the Kindle & box that I had on the counter, readying to return (with explanation) to him.  He had tears in his eyes about how excited he was to give it to me... Then, when I offered my explanation (hard to use gift when slept in on your vacation) he was enraged, saying that what I'm saying doesn't make any sense at all & that this was the ultimate 'slam' as I was 'throwing it (gift) back in his face'.  So later, when he was a bit calmer he kept trying to get me to say that I was going to use it. 

All I kept thinking was how can he expect me to use and enjoy his gift after treating me the way he did and feeling about me the way he does.

He he leaves absolutely no room for factoring in how I might feel about what he said, how he feels about me, how embarrassed I am to find out that he was upset while I was sleeping in, etc... Not to mention that now apparently his friends and family all feel the same way about me.

Anyway... .

"Let go or be dragged" -- how apropos. 

This is the end... Just not sure about when & how just yet. 

Thank you so very much for your support and kind words of encouragement.

I'll respond to the specifics tomorrow.

Blessings your way ~

Hopeful...

[livednlearned]

Hi HopefulOne44,

It's so hard to end a marriage, even (especially?) when mental illness is involved. The push and pull, the on and off, little glimpses of this person we want, then the reappearance of this other person makes it so confusing.

I left my N/BPDx husband 4 years ago when my son was 9. My situation is a little bit different than yours, but the underlying BPD patterns tend to be relatively predictable.

Like Mutt said, it's best to not have a conversation with someone who is BPD about divorce. BPD is about extreme rejection sensitivity and extreme fear of abandonment. Divorce is an ultimate form of abandonment, and your H will dysregulate in ways that can make it unbearable for you and the kids. Divorce is also about making the decision that it is ok to focus on you now, and as strange as it's going to feel for a while, it's ok to park your divorce thoughts with people who share an interest in focusing on you. Like a therapist, or a lawyer, or good friends. Your H cannot focus on you at a time like this.

It's possible that your H will smoke even more weed to help him cope, and hopefully that helps you. My N/BPDx drank to excess and took all kinds of mysterious prescription pills, and even though these drug cocktails made him unpredictable and often aggressive/abusive, it also made him incompetent. This is actually one of the lesser known benefits of divorcing someone who is a substance abuser. 

It's excellent that you have been journaling and documenting. That's the kind of thing you want to protect at all costs. In these divorces, it's an extremely wise idea to have a safety plan, even if your spouse is not abusive. He is going to feel like he's losing control of you, and will try to increase control.

There is an excellent book called Splitting: Divorcing an NPD/BPD Spouse by Bill Eddy (the same guy Mutt mentions who is behind www.highconflictinstitute.com) and he offers great advice for people like us. Eddy was a social worker for years and then began mediating divorces, then became a family law attorney. He began to realize that high-conflict divorces often involved someone with a personality disorder and he has brought a lot of awareness about mental illness to the court system. The more you learn about how family court works, and especially how BPD mixes with family court, the better prepared you will be.

There is also a lot of good material on the co-parenting board, including Lessons similar to what is here on the Leaving board. And the Family Law board has a lot of people who have experienced what you're going through, including me and Mutt. You're not alone.

Even if you decide to stay, it's a good idea to talk to a lawyer just in case your H senses you pulling away and does something first. It happens. I think my ex had a supernatural ability to sense my detachment. Even covering my tracks as well as I did, he felt a counter move and to my surprise I learned he had apparently contacted a lawyer before I left. You can talk to an L for $100-$200 for 30 min or so (depending on where you live) just to ask questions. Information is really important at this stage.

I have one question for you about your boys. Are they bonded to their dad? You mentioned that they speak rudely to you. I highly recommend that you have therapy lined up for them before you leave. Would your H agree to that? In order to get my son into therapy before I left, I lied and said I was worried about his behavior at school. Which was true, except that I was worried that my son's behavior at school was because he was falling apart at home due to N/BPDx anger issues etc.

It's also important to read about parental alienation so you can get ahead of it. Parental alienation tends to pop up in these divorces, and if your kids are bonded to dad, they will ally with him in painful ways that are hard to imagine. I found the book Power of Validation to also be profoundly helpful with my son. Learn those techniques and you will give your sons a whole new set of tools to help them cope (and you).

People here will help you every step of the way -- like others helped me move forward. You're really not alone.



LnL