Gender roles and how they affect a r/s with pwBPD traits

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This is somewhat of a frustation for me in marriage T. If I say something about my H, she turns it into my issue. This feels very invalidating and personally distressing since it mimics my family where if I said anything to mom, or about mom, it would be blamed on me. I have discussed my frustration with trying to communicate with my H.

OK... might be missing something here... .but it is YOUR issue... correct?  You are the one that "cares" about it... .and is "distressed" by it.

One thing I am working through... .and may not have it right.

I don't want to depend on another person to "fix" my feelings.

So... take dinner analogy.  I enjoy family dinners... .I want my wife to help make that happen... .or to make that happen (depending on point of view... .obvious nod to the female perspective...   )  But... .if it doesn't happen.  I'm frustrated... .angry... whatever.  I then try to work with my feelings... and my own self... .to "deal with" those feelings.  I don't want to depend on my wife's actions (which may never happen) to "help me feel better"

Now... that doesn't mean I give up on wanting my wife to do the thing... .but my feelings aren't tied to it.


I don't do this perfectly... .not even close... but this is the goal... .

Make sense?

[formflier]

This is somewhat of a frustation for me in marriage T. If I say something about my H, she turns it into my issue. This feels very invalidating and personally distressing since it mimics my family where if I said anything to mom, or about mom, it would be blamed on me. I have discussed my frustration with trying to communicate with my H.

OK... might be missing something here... .but it is YOUR issue... correct?  You are the one that "cares" about it... .and is "distressed" by it.

One thing I am working through... .and may not have it right.

I don't want to depend on another person to "fix" my feelings.

So... take dinner analogy.  I enjoy family dinners... .I want my wife to help make that happen... .or to make that happen (depending on point of view... .obvious nod to the female perspective...   )  But... .if it doesn't happen.  I'm frustrated... .angry... whatever.  I then try to work with my feelings... and my own self... .to "deal with" those feelings.  I don't want to depend on my wife's actions (which may never happen) to "help me feel better"

Now... that doesn't mean I give up on wanting my wife to do the thing... .but my feelings aren't tied to it.


I don't do this perfectly... .not even close... but this is the goal... .

Make sense?

[Notwendy]

On the physical issues. Wow that is tough and even harder to bring up in front of the T. He isn't comfortable talking about it at all.

The T talks about saying yes when you mean no. If you can imagine, I was afraid of saying no, because of the rage that would happen, or the ST. In addition, we were both tired at bedtime. Sometimes I would think- well we can just do this and go to sleep, or stay up all night fighting. Her advice to me is if I mean no, say no, and let him rage. She also talks to him about - do you want a wife who is really saying yes because she means it or just doing it when she doesn't. He says of course he would rather know that I mean it.

I don't think I will ever meet his expectations-because I don't think that a real human can. I have to give that problem back to him. I became insecure and self conscious about it. It doesn't do much for your desire when your partner lets you know he isn't happy with you. His expectation was that his wife would never say "no" to him, and while I think sex is an important part of marriage, real people can't be available all the time. I don't expect that of him if he is tired or not feeling well.

He has become more understanding that we are two humans. I think he gets the idea that no human would probably be able to make him happy all of the time.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I get that if I am upset about something, it is my problem. I think I'm a bit sensitive to the idea that I have the label of "co-dependent" in T while he has none. It is too reminiscent of my FOO and that is also my issue. But I took the ball and ran with it into treatment, and I am glad about that.

[vortex of confusion]

He can't seem to connect dots that seem so obvious to me. A lot of times, I have to help him connect the dots.

Can he connect the dots on "his stuff"... .stuff he cares about?

Ugggh. . .good question and one that kind of bugs me as it is one more thing. The truth is that I think he can connect the dots on stuff that he cares about. But that is the way it is in almost everything. He can remember an upcoming battle on one of his games but he can't remember to take out the trash. He can connect all sorts of dots when he is the center of attention and is the focus of everything, meaning that he doesn't have to think how his behaviors might impact me or those around him. I would think that he would have to be able to connect the dots or he wouldn't have two master's degrees and be gainfully employed.

Sorry for rambling here. I am thinking out loud because this question hit a really sore spot with me because it is one more reason why I feel like I really don't matter to him.

[vortex of confusion]

OK... might be missing something here... .but it is YOUR issue... correct?  You are the one that "cares" about it... .and is "distressed" by it.

I think I need to read this a couple of times. The first thing that comes to mind is my husband's sex addiction. Before he sought out treatment it was MY issue and my problem because I was the one that cared about it and was distressed about it. I guess I am having a difficult time with this because I see my husband do things that are hurtful and mean and insensitive. I think that I would have to be a robot to not be upset by some of these things. It comes across to me as, "You are upset about it. Big deal, it is your issue and your issue alone. You can't ask anything of your spouse because it is YOUR issue and you need to own it." Yep, I get hopping friggin' mad over some things. I get hurt over some things. I feel like the emphasis on it being MY issue is akin to saying, "Suck it up buttercup." and that feels very, very invalidating.

I don't want to depend on another person to "fix" my feelings.

I don't want to depend on another person to fix my feelings either. I hate feeling broken. However, I keep coming back to the question of, "How am I depending on another person to fix my feelings? I am not asking my spouse to fix my feelings. I am asking him to act like he knows that I exist and that I share the same space as him." And, I think the statement about not wanting to depend on another person to fix your feelings is very accurate. What is the point of being in a relationship if you can't depend on the other person to give you a little bit of consideration. If I can't rely on my spouse to take me into account on some level, then what the heck is the point of being in a relationship at all. To me, it seems like the answer is to simply shut down and not be bothered by those things. Hmmmmm. . .

[Notwendy]

Vortex, there is a relationship between motivation, interest, and executive function. Most kids with ADD can play video games, and pay attention to them. It is getting them to do their homework that is hard. One can imagine that is because they are not motivated and not doing it on purpose, but it is a little more complicated because interest and motivation can modulate executive function, as can other things, like being tired or hungry. This is true for everyone. When we are not motivated, we have less exectutive function. The difference is that when there is a deficit to begin with "less" is too little. So, a child who does not have ADD may not want to do their homework, but they know they have to or face the consequences, so they can do it. A child who has ADD can't overide this as well and has a hard time starting and completing their homework.

Ritalin, acts on neurotransmitters. If you can imagine what happens during dysregulation, there are all kinds of neurotransmitters running around in that brain along with emotions that are hard to manage. Addictions and high stimulation produce transmitters too- and offer relief from bad feelings. In a way, someone with BPD might use drugs, alcohol, high risk activities and other addictions to get relief from feelings because of what that does chemically in the brain. I think it is understandable why sex is so addictive in that manner- the escape, the high, the feeling desired. What makes SA so destructive is that it is "using" the other person, just like one uses a drug or getting high on porn in the same way.

What I had to learn about co-dependency was that this also produced an addictive affect mentally. By focusing on someone else, I could escape my own feelings. What made it more diffucult to see is that it is legal, always available, and helping people is socially acceptable.

As to wondering why is it your problem? Believe me, I struggle with this too. Why was my reaction to mom's or my H's behavior my problem? Why can't I ask something of them? Well you can, and they may have some behaviors that bother you, but asking them to do something they don't want to do isn't likely to work well. So the question "what can you do" is rhetorical in a sense because you are able to control what you want to do better than what you want them to do.

For example, you are camping in the woods and you see a bear. It is not your fault that the bear wants to eat you. It is the bear that is eating everything in sight. It would be great if you could ask the bear not to eat you, but the bear is being a bear, and doing what bears do. On the other hand, you have choices. Run to your car and leave is one of them. By focusing on what you can do, not what the bear can do, you can be more effective. I know this is simplistic, but it is the general idea.

[formflier]

What is the point of being in a relationship if you can't depend on the other person to give you a little bit of consideration. If I can't rely on my spouse to take me into account on some level, then what the heck is the point of being in a relationship at all. 

An excellent question to talk extensively about in MC... .and hopefully out of MC.  I would be more interested in your hubby's answers that yours... .because he is the one that has BPD traits.

Maybe I should say that if a pwBPD traits starts really working through this... .there is a chance to move forward.

I think the "point" of lots of the tools and strategies on here... .is to help the pwBPD traits to calm down some... .and have a chance at self reflection... .and have a chance to deal with questions like VOC raised.

Again... .excellent question.

Oh by the way... .

What is your answer?

Anyone else that wants to provide an answer... .go ahead... .if we need to break it into a new thread... .we can do that.

[vortex of confusion]

I think the "point" of lots of the tools and strategies on here... .is to help the pwBPD traits to calm down some... .and have a chance at self reflection... .and have a chance to deal with questions like VOC raised.

I have gotten to a point where I am using to tools to create more peace in my household. I am at a point where I feel like I have kind of given up on the relationship and am hoping that creating a more peaceful environment will give everybody the space to heal somewhat. It is really difficult for me, or anyone, to self reflect if we are surrounded by chaos and are walking on eggshells.

What is your answer?

Hmmmm. . .I can give you my answer based on how I feel right now. Right now, the point of being in the relationship with my husband is to raise our four kids. That is pretty much it at the moment. I don't feel like a priority to him. I don't feel like he takes his SA recovery work seriously. Our physical relationship has pretty much stopped because of all of the baggage.

And I wanted to go back and comment on something notwendy said:

Vortex, there is a relationship between motivation, interest, and executive function. Most kids with ADD can play video games, and pay attention to them. It is getting them to do their homework that is hard. One can imagine that is because they are not motivated and not doing it on purpose, but it is a little more complicated because interest and motivation can modulate executive function, as can other things, like being tired or hungry. This is true for everyone. When we are not motivated, we have less exectutive function.

So, logic says that the partner is not doing things within the relationship because the partner has little or no interest and therefor has little or no motivation. The non has simply become homework.

[Notwendy]

It depends on the task. Being nice to someone doesn't require executive function. I am talking about tasks that require planning and thinking.

We all do things we are not motivated to do, for instance some things at work, but we do them because we want the job/paycheck. We override this and get enough executive function to do it.


I do a lot of things that I am not motivated to do. Sometimes I just don't want to cook dinner. My H might think it is because I don't care about him if he wants me to do that. I sometimes don't want to cook, but I pull it off because I need to eat and the kids need to eat and he likes to eat too. It is more about me being able to pull it together when I am not motivated.

I have one example with my mom. She signed up to bake brownies for something at our school. She really wanted to bring home baked brownies.  I was a teen. Mom has trouble following the directions when baking. This isn't something one would expect from a grown adult college grad, but she just falls apart in the kitchen. She has a few core recipes that she can make, but she doesn't bake. Also she is afraid that she will blow it, not make them right and people will criticize her.

So mom marches into my room demanding I bake those brownies right now. Me, being a teen age girl and clueless about this is thinking what the... .?. So I bake the brownies, but it gets worse. I burned them.

This was the rage of all rages. The brownies were burned. This was the only cake mix. Now what to do. She is raging because she is so dysregulated she can't make a plan to go to the store and get more brownie mix. Well, I went to the store and got more ingredients and made brownies, but what a scene that was.

One could add that I didn't really want to bake brownies, but had enough executive function to do it, and also the raging became a motivator. I wanted to stop it.

So lets say you give your H a task and he isn't motivated that day. Someone with good executive function might be able to do it anyway because they can override that feelings. Your H may be more like mom with the brownies.

[vortex of confusion]

It depends on the task. Being nice to someone doesn't require executive function. I am talking about tasks that require planning and thinking.

If being nice to somebody doesn't require executive function, then why can't a person with BPD traits be nice. Why do they dysregulate?

We all do things we are not motivated to do, for instance some things at work, but we do them because we want the job/paycheck. We override this and get enough executive function to do it.

If a person can do something without motivation, then what is the excuse for a person with BPD not following through. Apparently, there is no benefit to override and get enough executive function to do it.

I do a lot of things that I am not motivated to do. Sometimes I just don't want to cook dinner. My H might think it is because I don't care about him if he wants me to do that. I sometimes don't want to cook, but I pull it off because I need to eat and the kids need to eat and he likes to eat too. It is more about me being able to pull it together when I am not motivated.

That is all fine and good. I am trying to understand how a person that is in a relationship with you doesn't override that lack of motivation to step up. Yes, I can override my lack of motivation. What prevents my partner from overriding his lack of motivation when it comes to ME? I have already asked why the lack of motivation to begin with.

So lets say you give your H a task and he isn't motivated that day. Someone with good executive function might be able to do it anyway because they can override that feelings. Your H may be more like mom with the brownies.

I don't quite understand how the brownie story applies to somebody with BPD in the context of a relationship. Your mom knew she couldn't bake brownies so she didn't even try. She didn't pretend to be able to make brownies. So, in my mind, if a person has problems with relationships and doesn't/can't do the work involved, why be in the relationship at all?

[Notwendy]

I don't have the answer to why be in the relationship at all. I don't know why my dad put up with what he did. I don't know why I put up with what I did sometimes. For a long time, it was because I believed it was the best for the kids and still better for me to have us as an intact family. If the situation were different, I may have made different choices. I may still one day make a different choice, but today, the good outweighs the negative.

I think also we have to decide what we want out of the relationship and how much we tolerate. That's individual.

With the brownies, I think there was a sense of a relationship and a discrepancy between what she wanted and what she could do. I think she did want to be the mom who brought cookies to school. I have no idea whether she tried to make them or not. I was the teen in my room probably listening to rock music, oblivious to what she was doing. She may have actually gone into the kitchen, taken out the mix, panic and dysregulated, and went for the easiest solution- me. Since it was probably humiliating for her to admit she couldn't do it, she stomped into my room and ordered me to. But this didn't mean she didn't at some level, want to make brownies. If she didn't care at all, she'd have just forgotten about doing it.

[Notwendy]

And it is also possible that someone doesn't do something because they simply don't give a darn.

Perhaps my example is more like FF's wife who wants to have a family dinner but then sends the kids off to grandmas. She may be motivated but get disconnected at some point. But she tries. It is possible that someone is also passive aggressive or just doesn't care.

You know your spouse best.

[Notwendy]

Vortex, you've brought up something that is a big issue with my H. He thinks that the more unmotivated I am, if he can get me to do something, that this is affirming to him, that I really love him if I am willing to do something for him that I don't want to do.

That is really wierd to me. If someone does something nice for me, I would like to think it was because they wanted to.

I'll give you an example. I occasionally get bladder infections, not often thankfully, but they hurt, I get a fever and feel bad until the antibiotics start working. I assume that a husband who cares about his wife would not push her to have sex at the time that doing that would really hurt. They don't last long, and he isn't deprived. I would hope he'd understand that this has nothing to do with my attraction to him, actually nothing to do with him at all.

Telling my H when I have a bladder infection is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. I had one once when there was a school function. I pulled it together for us to go because I wanted to be there with him for our child, but by the time we got home, I was exhausted, and feverish and wanted to go to bed. He suggested I take care of him another way. I told him how many times do I have to say I don't feel well? So he said "If you could pull it together to go to the school thing, you can pull it together for me"

I didn't pull it together to go have fun with my friends, or for another adult. I did it for my child but after that, I didn't have any energy left. I expected that a spouse would recognize the difference between a child's needs and an adult, but he didn't see it that way.

Another time I asked him why do you come after me if you know I wasn't up to it, and his reply was "I bet you'd make the effort for (insert name of latest handsome actor) so if I can get you to do it for me, then I know you think I am just as desirable.

Sometimes he would wake up before me in the morning and if I was still sleeping accuse me of faking being asleep to avoid him, or he'd rage at me if I wanted to take a nap, because he said, if I was really interested in being with him, I would force myself to stay awake.

I would understand his frustration if this was frequent, but I am thankfully a person with a lot of stamina and I like to be up and doing things, but I am human too. Wanting to sleep or being asleep is just that. I have never faked being asleep.

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex, you've brought up something that is a big issue with my H. He thinks that the more unmotivated I am, if he can get me to do something, that this is affirming to him, that I really love him if I am willing to do something for him that I don't want to do.

That is really wierd to me. If someone does something nice for me, I would like to think it was because they wanted to.

I am with you. I hope that people are doing things because they genuinely want to rather than because they have to or are trying to prove something to me. To me, that cheapens the whole thing. I want my husband to do things for me because he genuinely wants to do them rather than seeing me or our relationship as a homework assignment.

[vortex of confusion]

What is the point of being in a relationship if you can't depend on the other person to give you a little bit of consideration. If I can't rely on my spouse to take me into account on some level, then what the heck is the point of being in a relationship at all. 

An excellent question to talk extensively about in MC... .and hopefully out of MC.  I would be more interested in your hubby's answers that yours... .because he is the one that has BPD traits.

Wanted to let you know what my husband's answer was when I asked him: "What is the point of being in a relationship with a partner that you cannot rely on to take you and your feelings into consideration?" (Not sure if I asked it quite that way as it was part of a larger conversation that we had.)

His response was: "I honestly can't answer that. You have always taken such good care of me and given me so much consideration that I have no idea how to answer that question."

[Notwendy]

I guess we can't expect people to want to do something for us.

I know what you mean though. If I do something for someone that I want to do, it is from the heart, and I get pleasure from doing it. Nothing else is needed. I have not had the sense that either my mom or my H does that. Giving is not gratuitous. There is some reason for it, be it obligation, looking like a decent person, manipulation, or with the expectation of something in return.

Maybe because that is the kind of world they live in. Mom got what she wanted because she'd torment people into doing it for her. H's family all do things for each other so as not to look bad in their family's eyes.

Sometimes it is power thing. Mom is pretty helpless in a sense. She's a tiny woman. Keeping us as her servants gave her a sense of power. It's something in the doing. I mentioned in another thread that she wanted something done in the house and she wanted my kid to do it. I offered to do it but she said, "I want kid to do it." It wasn't about the job, it was to have kid do her bidding.

So maybe I answered my own question about power. If having people do things for you makes you feel power and affirmation. How much more powerful do you feel if you can get someone to do something that they don't even want to do for you? It's even more insane if you include not feeling well into this.

My H hates questions because to him it is a power play. The person asking the question is in power, because then the other person has to submit to doing the will of the asker. So to take your power back, don't answer or ask another question back. He does this all the time.

If doing something for someone makes you feel as if you are giving away your power. (the reverse of my mom's thinking- if someone does something for me, I have power, therefore if I do something for them, they have power), so if someone wants you to do something, the way to get your power is to: not do it, say you will do it then not do it, delay doing it ( something my H does) or do it to get a reward. To just do something, asked or not asked, is giving away your power so if you are going to do that then there must be something for you in it: something you want, manipulations, looking good... .Now imagine how much more power you are giving away if you do something you aren't motivated to do?

You think this is it? I don't think like this at all, but I was raised by someone who does... .

[Notwendy]

What is the point of being in a relationship if you can't depend on the other person to give you a little bit of consideration. If I can't rely on my spouse to take me into account on some level, then what the heck is the point of being in a relationship at all.  

An excellent question to talk extensively about in MC... .and hopefully out of MC.  I would be more interested in your hubby's answers that yours... .because he is the one that has BPD traits.

Wanted to let you know what my husband's answer was when I asked him: "What is the point of being in a relationship with a partner that you cannot rely on to take you and your feelings into consideration?" (Not sure if I asked it quite that way as it was part of a larger conversation that we had.)

His response was: "I honestly can't answer that. You have always taken such good care of me and given me so much consideration that I have no idea how to answer that question."

Vortex, if I ask my H a "why" question about his feelings or why he did something, I don't get a straight answer. I don't think they are in touch with their own feelings to even know why. It is frustrating to have them do this when they are grown adults, but I don't think they know why themselves.

He also hates questions and is likely not to answer because that would be giving in to me.

[vortex of confusion]

If doing something for someone makes you feel as if you are giving away your power. (the reverse of my mom's thinking- if someone does something for me, I have power, therefore if I do something for them, they have power), so if someone wants you to do something, the way to get your power is to: not do it, say you will do it then not do it, delay doing it ( something my H does) or do it to get a reward. To just do something, asked or not asked, is giving away your power so if you are going to do that then there must be something for you in it: something you want, manipulations, looking good... .Now imagine how much more power you are giving away if you do something you aren't motivated to do?

You think this is it? I don't think like this at all, but I was raised by someone who does... .

I don't think like this either and that has been part of the problem between my husband and I. I don't approach things from a place of power or control. I try to approach things from a place where partnership is the central focus. I think there was a short period where I got involved in the power struggles. In reflecting on that period, my struggles came from a place where I was feeling powerless and out of control. From what I have read, it seems that the people that want the most power and control are those that feel like they have little or no control in their lives for whatever reason.

Vortex, if I ask my H a "why" question about his feelings or why he did something, I don't get a straight answer. I don't think they are in touch with their own feelings to even know why. It is frustrating to have them do this when they are grown adults, but I don't think they know why themselves.

He also hates questions and is likely not to answer because that would be giving in to me.

Why questions are usually met with "I don't know". In the last couple of days, I have been trying the "help me understand" approach recommended by Form Flier and that seems to be a lot more effective.

I wonder if something like, "Help me understand this" would work for you as well because it is putting him in a place of power and you in a more submissive role of needing him to help you. Not sure how if that would fly or not.

[Notwendy]

I don't approach anyone from a position of power, and neither do you, Vortex. What I was wondering is if they see it that way, and by resisting our requests, are playing a game in their heads?

To me, if I had wanted someone to help me with a home task, then I would appreciate anyone helping me, because my goal would be to get it done. To my mom though, it was the person doing the task, that was most important.

My H once explained the power thing about the question. I thought that idea was the strangest thing, because I never thought of it that way.

Projection- if they do something , they think you do it too.

My H resists any question about who he is, or why he does anything. Help me understand doesn't work. Either he doesn't know, or he doesn't want me to know. Unless he is angry and dysregulated ( where he just lets it out) he is extrememely controlled. I could ask him anything about politics, the weather, what he did at work ( general ) but no personal questions. I used to think he was introverted. I wanted desperately to get to know him. Now, I don't try.

As to why be in a relationship? I'm a slow learner, really. If I was raised in a more normal situation, I'd have realized that something was off, but I wasn't raised to trust my feelings, and my role as caretaker in regards to my mom was all I knew. It was inevitable I think. It would make sense that he'd want to marry someone with my caretaking qualities, and that I would see the good in him and be blinded to the emotional issues.

He is much more together and high functioning than my mom in regards to himself and his role in the family. I feel fortunate for that. At the emotional intimacy level, it is pretty dysfunctional, but in our roles, as mom, dad, working, running a house, it works. We can have a nice time watching TV or some activity where we just don't really talk. I've tried- it doesn't work. Now, I'm not that invested at that "heart to heart talk" level. I used up so much time and energy trying to connect that way, but it is was all one sided- me, but I appreciate that he is a good father and husband in the best way he can probably do. I need to stop caretaking and get some space for who I am. This will be a shift, but it is important that I do it.

[formflier]

 

Vortex, you've brought up something that is a big issue with my H. He thinks that the more unmotivated I am, if he can get me to do something, that this is affirming to him, that I really love him if I am willing to do something for him that I don't want to do.

That is really wierd to me. If someone does something nice for me, I would like to think it was because they wanted to.

I think this way... .and "acts of service" is my number 1 love language.

My wife's language is touch.  I try to make sure that as I am about the house in the day... that when I pass by her... I touch her gently... .that I give her hugs for no reason... .or for a reason... .but lots of hugs.

I think this is why she likes to just snuggle as well... .

Also... probably why the family dinner is such a big deal to me... .it was something she could "do" for me... .and promised to "do"... but didn't.

If you have never done the love language test... it may reveal something... .

This was an earth shattering test for us... .very insightful. 

Our number 1s are very clear... .very high. 

Oddly enough  "gift giving" is extremely low for both of us.  She appreciates gifts... .but it's not that big a deal.  My oldest daughter is gift giving as number 1.  Amazing to watch her get a gift... .especially if I say I was on a trip... .thinking of her... .and got her something

[formflier]

His response was: "I honestly can't answer that. You have always taken such good care of me and given me so much consideration that I have no idea how to answer that question."

VOC,

Ask him to think on this... .ask for written response in a couple days... .nothing long.  If he still refuses... .ask him to think theoretically... .what if you didn't take good care of him?

I think we can  "set this up"... so that he may "get" some of what you are feeling... .  He doesn't have to understand it all... he just needs to "peek into your world... ."

[formflier]

 

My H hates questions because to him it is a power play. The person asking the question is in power, because then the other person has to submit to doing the will of the asker. So to take your power back, don't answer or ask another question back. He does this all the time. 

Does he say this... or are you reading between the lines.

This could be going on in my r/s... .I need to thin of a way to bring it up... .to "ask" it... .   

[formflier]

Vortex, if I ask my H a "why" question about his feelings or why he did something, I don't get a straight answer. I don't think they are in touch with their own feelings to even know why. It is frustrating to have them do this when they are grown adults, but I don't think they know why themselves.

So... .very interested in opinions of others on this... .but I think this is where some gentle prodding... .gentle persistence is needed.  IMO... them looking at and dealing with their feelings is a good thing.  Ignoring it seems enabling to me... .pushing to hard would set up for dysreg... .but somehow... .some middle ground needs to be found.

Thoughts?

[formflier]

"Help me understand this" would work for you as well because it is putting him in a place of power and you in a more submissive role of needing him to help you. 

Plus... .it puts responsibility back on him... .if you need "help understanding" to be able to do something... .and he doesn't do that... then the reason it didn't get done is him... not you. 

It's also "gentler"... .less cross examination like... .

I think it is interesting to  look at this from a "power" point of view... .hmmm... .

[formflier]

Now, I don't try.

IMO... .a big mistake.  I would guess he can sense this.  Now... .if trying is a scale of 1-10.  1 is nothing... .10 is max.  IMO... you should try a 3... .go for some small stuff... no controversy... .but slightly personnel.

Get it to be a habit... .keep it short.

So... every other day... .or every MWF you guys sit on couch for 15 minutes and talk. 

Slowly bump this up... .

[Notwendy]

FF, I know about the power thing because my H did explain this to me. I thought it was the strangest thing, as I that is not even part of my thinking process.

It came from me asking him a question, to which his next reply is either another question, or to not answer it. I finally was so confused that I asked him what was going on. It was one of the few times I ever got a glimpse of what he was thinking.

Maybe you have a better background to understand this since you are in the military and my H's dad was a military guy. Sounds like a battle plan to me. Maybe this is how his dad thought too.

Why not try to talk about personal matters? The most honest answer I can give is that I am too burned out at the moment to want to. 15 minutes of talking about anything personal to him is mutual hell for us both. Maybe when I take care of myself, I will think about this differently.

I'll digress into some "poor me" thinking, but that's not really what I am trying to aim at.

I've had years of individual T and couples T with some effort on his part and gigantic effort on my part, including lots of time and energy.  He actually hates talking about personal matters and does what he can to avoid it. I want to focus on me, and the kids. As long as I am married, I will honor that. Our home works on the surface and we both honor our commitments to it. However, I have come to accept that a certain level intimacy may not be possible at the moment and I don't know if it will be. My wanting more than he can give me is very frustrating for him too. He knows he either can't do it, or he won't.

It is possible that my not trying is going to lead to an unknown outcome. He may even leave me, but I don't, at this point, have much incentive left as it has rarely worked and usually my talking makes things worse to the point that I regret that I ever did say something. If there is something that needs to be discussed, I am willing to do this in therapy, since he holds it together in front of the T and she can modulate the discussion better than we can. I will continue couples T as long as he is willing to attend, and individual T if he is not.

It is also possible that me not taking the incentive to get him to talk about his feelings could make space for him to decide to take some responsibility for doing this. By my taking responsibility for emotional talk, he didn't have to do it. Now, I don't have false hopes that he will, nor am I doing this to be manipulative into getting him to do it. I am letting it go for me, giving up that responsibility. It is still my responsibility to tell him what I am feeling if I want him to know. His feelings and whether or not to share them are his decision and responsibility.

My efforts now are not to focus on the marriage or what to do about it, but to take the opportunity I have now that the kids are older, to nourish my own friendships and interests that I put aside for years.

[Turkish]

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