BPD negativity

[Depression = 72% of members]

What do you do when a pwBPD gets stuck in "woe is me" thinking and constantly complaining?

I've listened patiently, validated his feelings, tried not to solve his problems or offer advice or suggestions, but I'm almost on auto-pilot now with the sorries and validations. I'm running out of ways to do this and still make it sound genuine each time. Most are real complaints, but it's almost like he's looking for things to complain about. None of it is me, but he's painting others black and complaining about all sorts of other things, more than usual.

Is there a way to pull him out of this negative thinking? That has to be a horrible way to live.

[Jessica84]

What do you do when a pwBPD gets stuck in "woe is me" thinking and constantly complaining?

I've listened patiently, validated his feelings, tried not to solve his problems or offer advice or suggestions, but I'm almost on auto-pilot now with the sorries and validations. I'm running out of ways to do this and still make it sound genuine each time. Most are real complaints, but it's almost like he's looking for things to complain about. None of it is me, but he's painting others black and complaining about all sorts of other things, more than usual.

Is there a way to pull him out of this negative thinking? That has to be a horrible way to live.

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[vortex of confusion]

I don't have any good ideas. I am interested in seeing if anybody has any suggestions. I know it is frustrating when he seems to only be able to see the negative and starts obsessing over things.

I have tried to use my ability to be a smart azz with mixed results.

[MissyM]

Is there a way to pull him out of this negative thinking? That has to be a horrible way to live.

Umm, that is a pretty tall order!  I can't control my dBPDh's negative thinking, that is something he has to work on.  I can give a hug, quick empathy and move on when he is in a negative spiral.  If I try to get into the middle of it, then I will just go down with his mood.  The more I leave him to handle his own negative mood, the better it gets. 

[formflier]

Is there a way to pull him out of this negative thinking? That has to be a horrible way to live.

My suggestion is to figure out what is the "normal" amount of validation and support that you would give a "normal" person in these circumstances.  Give your SO a bit more than that... .and then move along... .and let them sort it out.

Maybe you can ask them to help you with an issue you have been thinking about... .or some other ruse to try and distract them... .

But... this is just something they are going to do... .

And... .if they get it in their head that you pile on the validation and help and love when they do this... .that might start being a reason (maybe subconscious) that they do it.

Really hard to tell...

[Jessica84]

Thanks for all the replies, advice and perspective. Now that I think of it, anyone in his situation would be feeling pretty negative, maybe even suicidal. He's back on his antidepressants now so at least his suicide ideation is gone for the most part. That was scary... and draining. Listening to him complain about other things isn't as bad as living with that fear. Now I listen, comfort him, then go back to whatever I was doing. Pretty easy once I learned to drown out the noise (all the stuff that used to trigger me). Guess I have to remember it takes time to climb out of a dark hole. It would for anyone. BPD makes it that much harder, but not impossible.

[Grey Kitty]

anyone in his situation would be feeling pretty negative, maybe even suicidal.

... .

Guess I have to remember it takes time to climb out of a dark hole. It would for anyone. BPD makes it that much harder, but not impossible.

Finding compassion for him really helps.

The other advice I've got for people in that situation is be aware of how YOU are feeling.

It is OK to be overwhelmed by your partner's negativity.

If you are feeling overwhelmed and frustrated, you won't be able to validate or give comfort; you will probably make them feel worse. So take care of yourself and go find something positive (away from your partner, most likely!) for a while.

The compassion will come back later when you are recharged.

[braveSun]

Maybe I would ask him a direct question somewhere in the conversation, about what would be a good thing he could do just now to feel better today.

Other than that, I would walk out after a few minutes...   forgetting about what 'normal' exactly is, most probably...

I have tried to use my ability to be a smart azz with mixed results.

  Love it Vortex!... .   

[waverider]

You cant validate everything better. You certainly dont have an endless supply of it. If you run out you will have non left when it really matters.

It is everyone's right to choose to wallow in misery, it is our right to choose how much we join them.

If you go past your limit it will become disingenuous, which has then flipped over to invalidating and undermine your genuine efforts, and potentially now making YOU the source of their woes.

I choose to go fishing rather than end up in wading in that bucket of poo 

[Jessica84]

Thank you all! I love it when waverider surfs in! I need to remind myself of this: "I can't validate him better".

Great advice, GK. That much negativity can be draining. Recharging is not always easy. I have a full schedule and demanding job. Hard to have compassion or patience when you're physically or emotionally zapped.

Bravesun- I am definitely going to try that one of asking what one thing he could do today to feel better. I think that could work!

Tried something along those lines yesterday. He started listing everything bad that happened at work. When he finally took a breath I asked him "did anything GOOD happen?" (I was careful with my tone not to sound sarcastic or impatient). His voice and tone perked up and he started naming good things. Little things at first and building up to future plans he was looking forward to. Soon he was off onto other subjects like deflated footballs! (sorry Patriot fans)

He even laughed some. Baby steps. Hope. Progress.

[formflier]

 

Instead of asking "if" good things happened... .ask him to list good things... .

[Jessica84]

He's been painting people black for the last month. Some deserve it, some don't. One of his friends didn't respond to an email so he said "guess I can cross him off the list now." Sigh.

Today he made a declaration to stop blaming other people for his problems.   

He said he's tired of being angry everyday. Just when I think he's hopeless and at rock bottom, he comes up for air!

Then he stumped me with "how do you forgive people?"

Um... ? Not like I have a formula or took a How To Forgive People 101 course... .All that came to mind was some quote I read like "Holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die from it." Forgiveness isn't about the other person. It's about letting go to be more content and at peace. I told him they may deserve your anger, but you deserve peace more. Not sure if any of that was very helpful. We'll see... .

[braveSun]

I have seen this happen for me, like my SO just wanted some connection with me. Validation?... . 

When I feel a bit overwhelmed with her wanting to talk about something that is, like, personal in my 'non's understanding', I get a little fuzzy feeling in my stomach that I need to watch out for replacing her own judgements and decisions.

I have sometimes asked her to talk about it with her T, or with her 'support people'. Sometimes I feel it's okay for me to share with her how I see something and what I would do. Sometimes I feel it's too much for me. There I ask her to refer to her good support.

Saying that, I know my SO has a hard time finding and maintaning her support network. Or even desiring to have it or to find people she can truely connect with for that. She has a SA and has been used to find that kind of support in small talks with her various sex partners, talking with this one, and than that one in turn.

Yes, I see it can baffle a non easily!... And for me to slip into getting involved into sorting her out, it's darn too easy. I have to watch out for that. I can bet on the fact that once I gave her my opinion, she will seek the opinion of other people also, and in the end, it does not matter that much if I say green or blue or black. It's her decision.

When I read what you are saying, it makes me think about the role of going to support group meetings for SAs (in my SO's case), and for partners. Because it helps a lot to hear many different experiences and how people approach these issues, and than make up your own mind. My SO doesn't like the idea to go to meetings.

If someone wBPD doesn't have a SA,  are there any kind of known (structured) support groups available?

[Cat Familiar]

My suggestion is to figure out what is the "normal" amount of validation and support that you would give a "normal" person in these circumstances.  Give your SO a bit more than that... .and then move along... .and let them sort it out.

Maybe you can ask them to help you with an issue you have been thinking about... .or some other ruse to try and distract them... .

But... this is just something they are going to do... .

And... .if they get it in their head that you pile on the validation and help and love when they do this... .that might start being a reason (maybe subconscious) that they do it.

Really hard to tell...

Ding, ding, ding! Yes, I think I have been reinforcing his grumpoopyness. He gets extra attention when he complains. Lately I've been going off on my own and doing something useful instead of listening to the litany of never ending complaints.

[Grey Kitty]

He said he's tired of being angry everyday. Just when I think he's hopeless and at rock bottom, he comes up for air!

Then he stumped me with "how do you forgive people?"

You did a pretty good job of answering it.

If he's asking more about this in an open and thoughtful frame of mind, I'd point to some mindfulness techniques that may apply here.

It isn't fun to feel ANGRY. What usually happens when you feel angry is that you try to avoid feeling angry. One really good way to do that is to blame somebody else, and lose yourself in the anger, instead of feeling it.

If you let yourself feel the anger... .without lashing out at anybody, without doing anything, without saying anything to anybody... .you may discover something that helps you deal with it.

You may also discover some other feelings underneath the anger.

Hard work... .but perhaps the only path through it.

Especially if you've gone through this process yourself. (Gee, have you ever gotten angry at him?     Never mind, don't use that example to explain it to him! Pick one that is safer that he's less likely to take personally, if you do give an example.)

[Jessica84]

BraveSun- He is opposed to therapy and even more to meetings. He had a gambling addiction and thought he could cure it on his own. So he went into debt and now can't afford it. One way to take care of a problem...  

CatFamiliar- yep. I do the same. Listen to him whine, then go lose myself in a nice hot bath and a book!

I wonder how many of them get addicted to our sympathy? When he was suicidal I didn't care. I was more concerned about him hurting himself than him being needy. Now that he seems to be over that, I've gotta wean him from leaning so much on me. I can't fix him. Today was nice though. He's been depressed for so long, it was good to see him trying to come up for sunlight. All on his own. 

[Jessica84]

Thanks for the suggestions GreyKitty. Too bad I can't apply any of it right now... .

He just called in a full-blown rage. Said he's been standing in a pool of bad luck and has had enough. He got himself so worked up he had to hang up. Right before that, I could hear him screaming obscenities at someone. Thankfully, he's not mad at me, but I'm pretty sure some poor driver is getting road-raged at right now... .

[waverider]

Sounds like he is stuck in the victim role, have a read of this The Three Faces of Victim which involves the Karpmann triangle.

Forgiveness wont be easy until he starts to take ownership of his part and moves away from victim mode, and hopefully not towards persecutor for retribution.

You can't forgive while you still believe everyone is out to get you.

[braveSun]

He is opposed to therapy and even more to meetings. He had a gambling addiction and thought he could cure it on his own. So he went into debt and now can't afford it. One way to take care of a problem...  

Wow!... This makes me think that I had set a boundary at some point. That she had to see a CSAT for her SA, to be in relevant treatment. That was a part of a set of boundaries I laid out last year, all of them were for me to feel safe enough to continue consider the relationship.

[Linda Maria]

Hi Jessica84!  Interesting thread.  I tend to agree with formflier.  The pwBPD in my life is my sister, and over the last 20 years I dread to think how much time I have spent on the phone, and in person listening to her tales of woe, all of which sounded a little incredible and exaggerated, and many of them, now I know about BPD, I suspect didn't have a single grain of truth to them.  Sometimes, if we'd been on the phone a long time, and I was trying to end the call (in a nice way) she would up the ante and bring up another terrible thing that was happening - which if it had been true - would have been brought up much earlier I always thought.  So I really felt it was a bid for attention, which got so exhausting.  Other times I would put the phone down, feel really worried about her, ring back, to find she'd gone out and was down the pub, or out with friends, and clearly having a good time!  She'd wound me up and got me worried, and was now ready to party!  I've done enough validating to last me a lifetime!  But every situation is different, everyone needs to download and get a bit of sympathy sometimes, but it does suck all the joy and life out of you if they do it too much, so just protect yourself and try to have firm boundaries about how long you will listen to it.  Wish you well.

[waverider]

Hi Jessica84!  Interesting thread.  I tend to agree with formflier.  The pwBPD in my life is my sister, and over the last 20 years I dread to think how much time I have spent on the phone, and in person listening to her tales of woe, all of which sounded a little incredible and exaggerated, and many of them, now I know about BPD, I suspect didn't have a single grain of truth to them.  Sometimes, if we'd been on the phone a long time, and I was trying to end the call (in a nice way) she would up the ante and bring up another terrible thing that was happening - which if it had been true - would have been brought up much earlier I always thought.  So I really felt it was a bid for attention, which got so exhausting.  Other times I would put the phone down, feel really worried about her, ring back, to find she'd gone out and was down the pub, or out with friends, and clearly having a good time!  She'd wound me up and got me worried, and was now ready to party!  I've done enough validating to last me a lifetime!  But every situation is different, everyone needs to download and get a bit of sympathy sometimes, but it does suck all the joy and life out of you if they do it too much, so just protect yourself and try to have firm boundaries about how long you will listen to it.  Wish you well.

This is exactly what my partner does and causes her alienation from friends and family. The more they pull away because of it, the more she feels invalidated and simply piles it on more, leading to abandonment. Which in turn reinforces victim mode. In the process she convinces herself she is incapable of change her lot in life.


Once you know about it you really do have to learn the skills to just let it wash, you can't stop it.

Do not get drawn into the complaints about how you understand but so and so is horrible and wont take them seriously... This is an attempt to get you to take up the role of rescuer on the triangle to validate her role as victim as a result of so and so being a persecutor... .A role it is both hard to avoid and to remove yourself from, as eventually your patience runs out and you become the persecutor.

It is important in these dynamics to realize it is in your control not to be in that role, without going into victim role yourself and hence putting the "victim' into role of persecutor. Are you then turning to someone else (your rescuer) to complain about this person is always stressing you by complaining? All you do then is spin the triangle rather than step out of it

[Jessica84]

He called back and told me some long story. He had every right to be upset about the situation but he took it to a whole new level! Like a bull seeing red. After about 30 minutes he calmed down quite a bit. It is a MIRACLE I didn't trigger him by accident in this state. Miracle meaning I used the tools from this site. I am still so surprised how well they work on him, and yet he has no idea why it's been easier to talk to me lately.  

Before I learned about BPD I was constantly triggering him, then reacting to his reactions, then making him rage worse, then saying/doing all the wrong things, then sitting in a state on confusion wondering what just happened... . 

A couple of interesting things he mentioned once he calmed down:

- he said he lives with a "cup" full of emotions all the time and sometimes needs to empty the cup

- when his cup gets full he gets angry

- he prefers being angry to being depressed

- he feels his anger helps him come up with solutions

- once he has a solution he makes a plan and then he's no longer angry/depressed - back in control

- he wants to learn how to forgive his "enemies" so he doesn't have to live with constant angry

I guess I can see the logic - looks like quite a vicious cycle to me but definitely gives some insight into how he thinks.

[waverider]

If he knows this cup gets full and needs to be emptied, then maybe he needs to put thought into proactively preparing a safe place to empty it, rather than running around with a cup that is about to spill trying to find somewhere to empty it in a hurry.

Being prepared for an event makes it less traumatic. (thats what we are working on here ourselves:))

[Jessica84]

Waverider - the victim triangle article was interesting. Thanks for sharing! I've played all 3 types of victim in my life. He definitely lives in victimland, but I don't think he likes it. It's how he copes.

Linda- the complaints can be exhausting. I would be pretty upset to find out someone dumped all their woes on me then went out to party. It's like someone took a dump on your lap and now she feels better. Meanwhile, you're left with crap in your lap! Ugh. Unfortunately, I know he's still sitting there feeling miserable.

Bravesun- I am terrible at setting boundaries with him. He finds small ways to cross them inch by inch without my even noticing. Good for you that yours are working!

[Jessica84]

If he knows this cup gets full and needs to be emptied, then maybe he needs to put thought into proactively preparing a safe place to empty it, rather than running around with a cup that is about to spill trying to find somewhere to empty it in a hurry.

Being prepared for an event makes it less traumatic. (thats what we are working on here ourselves:))

You are so right. I have more of a bucket than a cup! Takes a long time to fill it up. I can feel when it's getting too heavy to carry and start emptying before it gets full. His cup must be a baby cup... .

[vortex of confusion]

I am terrible at setting boundaries with him. He finds small ways to cross them inch by inch without my even noticing. Good for you that yours are working!

I know that feeling all too well! It takes practice AND it takes being pretty clear on what your boundaries are. The problem that I have with setting boundaries is that I don't realize that they are being encroached upon until somebody has crossed the line and I am sitting there wondering, "How the heck did that happen?"

I am still trying to figure out which boundaries to set in stone and which ones to leave a little wiggle room on. It is a process!

[Cat Familiar]

I am terrible at setting boundaries with him. He finds small ways to cross them inch by inch without my even noticing. Good for you that yours are working!

I know that feeling all too well! It takes practice AND it takes being pretty clear on what your boundaries are. The problem that I have with setting boundaries is that I don't realize that they are being encroached upon until somebody has crossed the line and I am sitting there wondering, "How the heck did that happen?"

I am still trying to figure out which boundaries to set in stone and which ones to leave a little wiggle room on. It is a process!

I'm in the same position--"How the heck did that happen?" could be my mantra.

[Jessica84]

I am terrible at setting boundaries with him. He finds small ways to cross them inch by inch without my even noticing. Good for you that yours are working!

I know that feeling all too well! It takes practice AND it takes being pretty clear on what your boundaries are. The problem that I have with setting boundaries is that I don't realize that they are being encroached upon until somebody has crossed the line and I am sitting there wondering, "How the heck did that happen?"

I am still trying to figure out which boundaries to set in stone and which ones to leave a little wiggle room on. It is a process!

I'm in the same position--"How the heck did that happen?" could be my mantra.

EXACTLY!

I think it's a matter of listening to your intuition? That little voice that alerts you when someone's getting too close to the line?

[waverider]

Waverider - the victim triangle article was interesting. Thanks for sharing! I've played all 3 types of victim in my life. He definitely lives in victimland, but I don't think he likes it. It's how he copes.

Heres the link Three faces of Victim

The thing that we overlook is that once caught in it we then attempt to rotate it rather that step out. It is not fixed and each player can perceive themselves at a different point on it depending on their perspective. In the bigger picture all playres become victims of the dynamic itself, constantly adding to it.

[vortex of confusion]

I think it's a matter of listening to your intuition? That little voice that alerts you when someone's getting too close to the line?

I think in normal circumstances, intuition works. I feel like my intuition doesn't always work with my spouse because my intuition has been questioned so much.

My husband said something the other day that was very validating. He and I have gone round and round over the years about his sex addiction and some of his behaviors. He admitted that a lot of the things that I have said/thought/felt over the years were spot on but he couldn't see it and didn't want to admit it. Because of his denial, talking in circles, and other confusing behaviors, my intuition got really, really clouded and became difficult to hear among the confusion. 

[braveSun]

About my intuition.

I agree with Vortex, it's really more and more confusing to figure out what my little ringers are telling me when there are so many instances of 'questionning' and my 'world of reference' is reduced.  Sometimes it's in my body, the stress level is say, 7/10 or 8/10. Than I know I can't quite rely on my intuition.

Jessica, the image of the bucket being full, it makes me recall that in every one of my group therapy sessions for partners of SAs, we had an imagery guided relaxation session. It's so interesting to experience that in say 5-10 minutes of listening to these, and just breathing, my overall stress level would go down considerably (maybe 2 or 3/10), and I could even feel good, just in the moment.

Of course than my inuition would become clearer. I remember the T saying that even though the behaviors causing all that stress in our lives may still be going on, for us to practice some form of relaxation/breathing/meditation techniques could give us the ability to reconnect with our intuition (even if briefly). It was surprising that one moment I was feeling all anxious and confused, and the next, I could be feeling so calm, in control of my thoughts and my senses. She said the brain can be that much malleable.

For me the experience was easier to do, because of course I was not alone at night in my bed looking up the wall. I was with the T in the room, safely guiding our attention to our bodies and breath, etc...   But once I had done these regularly over an extended period of time, I could tap into the process of my breating alone.

Going to take a walk in the forest or at the beach has done a whole lot of good for me also. Even opening the window for 5 min and letting in the fresh air, I hear birds sometimes... That has that effect also.

And I am thinking about who are the people I am surrounding myself with these days. How much negativity I hear everyday as routine conversations. 

I know this is different for everybody for sure. What are the things you all do, to help yourself relax and empty the bucket from time to time?