How do men initiate?

[Crumbling]

How does sex start in your relationship?  How do things happen? 

Do you plan it?  Is it 'date night'?  Is it roll over in bed and start playing with her?

Just, in general language, how does the magic happen in your r/s? 

How do you men convey your... .cravings... .to your women?

I'm just trying to get at if I'm facing a Mars vs Venus situation, or something else.

I'm struggling with my sexual relationship with my BPDh, and I'm hoping this information will help.

Thanks,

c.

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[ColdEthyl]

Well normally before the issue I'm dealing with, it was just... .natural. One of us would start with touching and it just went the way it went. Now it's weird.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240635.40

Here's the thread on what ED issues I'm dealing with if you wanted to read

[formflier]

 

Hey!  One of my favorite topics!

I get the vibe that we (wife and I ) tend to have sex more often than average... .

I'd say 70% is me initiating... .and the rest her.

Boy... I'm all over the place as far as how I initiate. 

Sometimes I just ask... .sometimes I'll start giving backrub... .leave a note... .

[vortex of confusion]

Before I cut him off, I was the one to initiate most of the time. A lot of times, I would get rejected or he would be unable to perform. I don't recall him initiating much. There were a few times when it was mutual.

Not a lot of kissing or making out though.

It was me starting the car and letting him park the car in the garage.

[formflier]

How do you men convey your... .cravings... .to your women?

If it gets to the point where I really want something specific... .I'll ask.  So... if I want a certain position or something like that.

Most of the time we'll start fooling around and then see how things develop based on our moods. 


Crumbling,

Is there something specific you are wanting and not getting... or is there an area where the communication is not happening?

Generally speaking my wife is much less direct than I am.  For instance... .last night... I had no intention of having sex... .it was late... .I had no idea she was interested.

So... .I put these wrist braces on before I go to bed...   I have carpal tunnel and my arms will go to sleep... .hurt and cause me to wake up if I don't wear them...   Usually i take them off before we fool around.

So... .I set down on bed.  She is already in.  I start putting on the braces... .and she says... ."You don't have to put those on yet... ."  Really not a sexy voice or anything like that... .but... .she wanted to mess around.

So... I slip in next to her and asked "What is mommy interested in tonight?" 

Even though I was tired... .I gave it my best shot... .(yeah... I went there... )... .but... honestly... .tried to keep it quick because I was tired... .I know she was too.

I'm more likely to say "Hey... .why don't you come over here and ... .(fill in the blank)"

I'm bad to offer a backrub... ."with strings attached".  Not that she "minds"... .or has to be convinced to have sex with me... .

I do try to make sure that a couple of times a month a give a real backrub... ."no strings attached".  Interestingly... .sometimes when I finish the backrub and say I want to go to sleep... .sometimes she then comes after me.

I am fortunate to say that BPD traits has not "infected" our sex life to the extent that it seems to in many of the other r/s that are discussed on here.

If she gets upset in the evening and decides to sleep in another room... .that's her choice.  It usually blows over in a day or so... and I don't think much more about it.  I try to pack in all the good sleep I can.

Crumbling,

Does this help?  Or give you a window into the "male" mind.  I was in Navy for over 20 years... .of course we all talked about what kind of "home life" ... .we had.  I've heard all kinds of stories.  Enough to figure out that there really isn't a "normal".

I had one buddy... .whose wife put him on a schedule.  He seemed to like it... .and she seemed to like not worrying about having him chasing her around on the other nights.  On the nights when stuff was scheduled... .she apparently really poured her energy into it.  Of course... .we would try to figure out the schedule and see if we could make him late to go home... that kind of thing (what are friends for anyway?) 

[waverider]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

[waverider]

Seriously though a sense of fun helps...

[Crumbling]

   

Thanks for the responses.

So... .inject fun into it... .make intimacy a part of the r/s, even if there is no sex involved... .asking what she wants and being willing to give it... .None of this happens at our house, nor at VoC's or CE's either, apparently.   

I've been following your links about this topic, CE really close in hopes to find tools that may apply to us.  My BPDh doesn't admit to having a sex addiction, but it's definitely presented to me like it's a fix he needs fixin.  He says things "I can't think straight unless I get the sex off my mind." and stuff like that.

VoC said it exactly right:

It was me starting the car and letting him park the car in the garage.

Only his mechanic is presently on strike! 

[MissyM]

Crumbling, this sounds at heart an intimacy disorder (as I stated on the other thread).  We had these problems before my dBPDh ever started acting out sexually and I struggled for years to get help with this.  I do encourage you to find someone that does intimacy and attachment work, as I firmly believe that if we had addressed those issues that the acting out would have never happened.  It was frustrating because I spent years looking for help and it wasn't until after active sex addiction started, that we were able to get the right kind of help.  So by then we had all of the hurt and betrayal to add on top of the previous dysfunction and pain.  I know my dBPDh was always more receptive to, I really want to be closer to you and more intimate than I do not like what you are doing.  Just my 2 cents.

[Wrongturn1]

In general, the folks on this site might not be able to give you a clear picture of what initiating sex looks like in a normal relationship because the BPD dynamic heavily influences this area of life.

Over the years, I have learned that if I initiate when my uBPDw is not in the mood, it is likely to lead to a dysregulation episode.  So these days, I never initiate unless she has been sending me clear signals that she is in the mood.  Also, uBPDw is not the spontaneous type, so I know the routine and have to wait until she finishes everything else on her to-do list for the day and finally takes a shower, then it's mutual go-time as soon as the kids are asleep.

[formflier]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Anyone want to guess what I'm going to do today... .?   

[Cat Familiar]

When we first got together, it was a very natural spontaneous thing that we didn't have to think about.

Later, when it became apparent how alcohol-dependent he was, it started really affecting my feelings for him. When he was drunk, I found him kind of repulsive and the sex we had lasted waaaay too long for me and I was really sore and uncomfortable the next day. (If TMI--sorry)

It was almost as if he was so disconnected from his body that he couldn't get to the endpoint.

So I made a rule for myself, no sex if he's been drinking. And that pretty much excludes all night time activity.

In the daytime, I'm often so busy with projects around our place, it's not my habit to seek him out. And I know that I really should try to change this because he's much nicer when he get some. 

[formflier]

In the daytime, I'm often so busy with projects around our place, it's not my habit to seek him out. And I know that I really should try to change this because he's much nicer when he get some. 

So... .what time will you seek him out today?   

[Cat Familiar]

In the daytime, I'm often so busy with projects around our place, it's not my habit to seek him out. And I know that I really should try to change this because he's much nicer when he get some. 

So... .what time will you seek him out today?   

Yikes, you're putting me on the spot--I guess before we go to yoga class this afternoon!

[Notwendy]

LOL this is funny. The laundry basket would work. So would doing the dishes! There actually is a funny book about this, that I think I mentioned on another thread. "Porn for Women". There is no porn in it- it's a series of handsome men doing housework.


I think this is part of the insecurities, fears of feeling vulnerable, and fear of rejection that I think we all deal with to some extent, but is far greater for someone who has difficulties with that already. If I can put my marriage into context, things got really tough at about the time we started having kids. I was painted black at that time too. It's hard to figure out what started what, but I did not have easy pregnancies. I think this was the first time I actually was not always "available" when he wanted, but I was still quite available. I figured a mature person could see that if his wife was throwing up that she wasn't interested in sex at that moment, but it was not a personal thing. He isn't able to see that. I think I mentioned a time when he wanted sex after I told him I had a bladder infection and then he raged at me. If you look at a marriage overall, these times were relatively rare, thankfully. I was loving and available, but it took one "no" to result in weeks of anger from him.

Then somehow ED got into the issues and I don't understand much why because he refuses to discuss it. However, the way he initiates sex is indirectly. I know that if he rubs my back, that means sex, because the few times I actually fell asleep when he rubbed my back would result in a rage. He actually accused me of pretending to be asleep to ignore him (no, I was asleep) . It got so if he rubbed my back, I would start to feel anxious, so I'd just get to it before something happened that he'd get angry about.

Sometimes, he will be more direct and I do go along with it because I realize it must be hard for him to do this. It's not that we don't have some good times together, we do, but I am still dealing with the emotional issues from having been raged and rejected ( as payback for him feeling hurt for something he thought I did that I didn't do) at over this issue.

[Cat Familiar]

LOL this is funny. The laundry basket would work. So would doing the dishes! There actually is a funny book about this, that I think I mentioned on another thread. "Porn for Women". There is no porn in it- it's a series of handsome men doing housework.


I think this is part of the insecurities, fears of feeling vulnerable, and fear of rejection that I think we all deal with to some extent, but is far greater for someone who has difficulties with that already... .it took one "no" to result in weeks of anger from him... .I am still dealing with the emotional issues from having been raged and rejected ( as payback for him feeling hurt for something he thought I did that I didn't do) at over this issue.

I love that book! If more men really understood that we're turned on by them doing housework, there would be much less trouble in the world. When you're working your $$ off and totally exhausted after housework, preparing dinner, cleaning up and then they expect sex, it often turns into yet another task, rather than something enjoyable.

I know that some of my difficulties about sex are due to having been married to a sex addict ex husband. Fortunately my current husband is wonderful, other than the BPD and drinking, but I sometimes lose perspective. I tend to have much less tolerance having been around the BPD block more than once (including my mother--who gave me really weird messages about sex).

Maybe I was being defiant about parental prohibitions, maybe it was just the hormones, but as a young person, I was very into sex. Not so much anymore. But it still is fun, if awkward to get going at times.

[Notwendy]

Yes, if they only knew... .

My H has matured a bit since he had these ideas, but he believed that if he did something I asked him to do, then he'd be "pussywhipped" ( his words) so he made a point of not doing what I asked him to do so I would not get the idea that I could pussywhip him ( That wasn't anything I aimed at doing). His thing was that he did his job ( support us) and if he did anything I was supposed to do that would be doing my job too and that wasn't fair.

What he didn't get was sure, he worked hard and so when he came home, he was going to relax. Fair enough. However once I cooked, cleaned up the dishes, helped with homework, put kids to bed, it was late at night and I'd been taking care of little people all evening long. He'd been able to recharge, and he was raring to go, but I had no transition between putting the kids to bed and then taking care of him too.

If he had realized how much doing the dishes, or helping a little bit on the nights he wanted sex would have made it so I was done sooner and not so tired, and we'd have more time together to just relax for a few minutes would have paid off, he may have rethought things, but there was no discussing this with him. Now, we are in such a pattern that I don't ask him to do anything "domestic" at all.

[formflier]

I love that book! If more men really understood that we're turned on by them doing housework, there would be much less trouble in the world. When you're working your $$ off and totally exhausted after housework, preparing dinner, cleaning up and then they expect sex, it often turns into yet another task, rather than something enjoyable.

Hey... .just to hold up the male side here... .it does work the other way too.  I realize that when I make this argument... .I'm arguing "non to non"... .as in two nons in a r/s.  Adding in BPD type traits to a r/s really puts things out of kilter.  Because... our views and "their" views... .really are so "skewed".

Anyway... .for all the guys that are reading out there.   The smell of bleach or pine sol (as a result of a husband using it) really does turn on a wife... .

And... .for the women out there... .dragging a husband into the bedroom for  bonus rumble... .just because... .is like validation for the male mind... .it just makes everything work better.  Plus... you'll probably get what you really are after.  I'm pretty sure the birds and other small animals that are in the house got agreed too when I was in a sex fogged stupor... .with a grin on my face.   

[vortex of confusion]

And... .for the women out there... .dragging a husband into the bedroom for  bonus rumble... .just because... .is like validation for the male mind... .it just makes everything work better.  Plus... you'll probably get what you really are after.  I'm pretty sure the birds and other small animals that are in the house got agreed too when I was in a sex fogged stupor... .with a grin on my face.   

That might work for a male that is a non. . .

I was asking some male friends how to get my husband interested and they said, "Show up naked with beer." Didn't work. I have gone to great lengths to woo my husband over the years and have only been met with unpredictable success because it is still all about him. He would get so excited that my needs went untouched. He might be in a good mood for a little while but I would walk away frustrated.

[ColdEthyl]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Actually, I've had luck this past Sunday! It was not thought out or planned just spontaneous and he reacted very positively, and everyday he's been loving and telling me how much he's been thinking about it.

He also said last night something about how when I touch him I seem timid... .like I'm not exactly sure if this or that is ok (to be fair... .after 2 years of being slapped down most of the time... .it think anyone might feel unsure of themselves)

So... .I like this idea. Maybe I'll just be bolder. Maybe it will make him bolder, too. You know... .that whole BPD mirroring thing.

[formflier]

 

VOC,

Have you tried the counter intuitive thing... and tried to make it all about your needs.

So... you to him... .   "Hey... .since you are not interested in sex... .please just come in here and help me with my issue for 5 or 10 minutes... .after my "O"... .I'll leave you alone... "

Maybe you can have a bit of tongue in cheek... .or maybe not.

Just a thought...

[formflier]

Actually, I've had luck this past Sunday! 

Nice work! 

So when he tells you that he likes it... .and remembers fondly... .have you offered an encore?

Keep the momentum going!

[vortex of confusion]

VOC,

Have you tried the counter intuitive thing... and tried to make it all about your needs.

So... you to him... .   "Hey... .since you are not interested in sex... .please just come in here and help me with my issue for 5 or 10 minutes... .after my "O"... .I'll leave you alone... "

Maybe you can have a bit of tongue in cheek... .or maybe not.

Just a thought...

I have tried that once or twice. It was good.

My stumbling block is trying to figure out how to set and keep boundaries around sex without violating his sobriety because of the sex addiction stuff. I am trying to get back to a place where I am comfortable doing that. Right now, all sex stuff is off the table until I can figure stuff out in my own head. I want to get back to a place where stuff like that is on the table so to speak but I have to figure out how to approach it in a way that is healthy and is mutually satisfying. I am tired of trying stuff with him only to walk away feeling kind of blah. Part of what makes it blah is the fact that he likes to do a post mortem on things and that makes me uncomfortable.

[formflier]

 

What does his treatment team say?  How can you "behave" sexually... .(yeah... I went there... .)... .that helps his recovery... .

[vortex of confusion]

What does his treatment team say?  How can you "behave" sexually... .(yeah... I went there... .)... .that helps his recovery... .

I don't know and that is part of the problem. I think reading these threads along with some others about boundaries has given me some things to think about so that I can perhaps figure out a way to reintroduce certain things without worrying about violating his sobriety. He admits that he was using me to act out without acting out. He could do things with me without having to really take responsibility for his compulsive behaviors. I was (an am) torn because one of my values in marriage is to not withhold. I have a pretty high libido (in the right circumstances) so I unwittingly let him use me.

Does that make an ounce of sense?

[Notwendy]

Vortex, I wonder if you can separate your relationship from worrying about his sobriety. You can each be with each other for your own reasons. His addiction is his issue, but it shouldn't mean your abstinence unless that is what you both agree on.

This is something my H has spoken to us in T. I've told her about all my worries- will he rage at me, will I dissappoint him, will he reject me? For years, I was basically sexually co-dependent. I let him tell me what I should or not do, when I should do it. I had sex with him when I didn't want to because I didn't want him to rage at me. I didn't think I could ask him for anything. All this time, I had lost touch with any reason I'd want to do it. I was basically molding my responses and desires around him.

I understand that it is about two of us, and I should consider him, but the T basically told him to learn that sex when I want it too would be much better than when he pushed it under the threat of a rage. She also told me not to give in if he does rage. She's pointed out that I have rewarded his behavior. Now, if I do initiate things, it is without concern that he will rage or reject me. I know that has nothing to do with me. Sometimes he does turn me down but it doesn't hurt my feelings like it used to. What is going on between us will not change unless I change.

So what if you just were yourself with him? His issues are his and he'll have to deal with it. It would either be this or not be with him at all. It would be up to him and his sponsor to decide what he needs to do about being abstinent or recovering in marriage. You can think about you.

I know this is hard with SA, but if people with SA are married, surely there has to be a plan for that.

[hergestridge]

Now I don't usually post here, but I think I can have some valuable input about something that did work for me and my ex BPDw:

We were married for 20 years and our sex life didn't really work until year 17. Up to that point my wife had been the one to initiate, and she rarely felt up to it. The reason she did initiate was because she was not comfortable with me initiating because she so much wanted to be in control. It was like that very complex. Cosy dinners and lit candles always had her running off to bed disappointed and cold. Typicall BPD stuff.

What happened eventually was that we decided to simply have sex twice a week. Button up the pants and decide on a position - let's go! We started to discuss the best way to orgasm and my wife bought sex toys to complement what she could have from me. It was the best sex we both have had.

It was simply an agreement and no guilt involved. All fantasies were ok.

Of course it only worked when she didn't have a "bad" phase, because then I supposed she felt cheap and used. But that was no different from the first 17 years of our relationship really.

I suppose it's different for a male pwBPD. I was fully capable of giving my wife all kinds of pleasure and take care of all of her needs during our sessions. What I never managed however, was to fullfill her need for "initimacy" which she kept talking about. She kept pushing me away and there was no chance in hell you could touch her outside of bed (barely in bed for god's sake).

[ColdEthyl]

Actually, I've had luck this past Sunday! 

Nice work! 

So when he tells you that he likes it... .and remembers fondly... .have you offered an encore?

Keep the momentum going!

Oh yes I have! I'm going to send him some naughty pics and texts while I'm at work on Friday to "kick up some dust" for the evening  I most certainly offered an encore!

[formflier]

  I most certainly offered an encore!

Did he go for it... or put you off? 

Just trying to get a picture of how he is processing this (from a guy's point of view)

[ColdEthyl]

  I most certainly offered an encore!

Did he go for it... or put you off? 

Just trying to get a picture of how he is processing this (from a guy's point of view)

Oh not at all... .he said he's been thinking about it since and he wants more... .he's really turned on. This whole thing was a brazen move on my part, and he said in the past my touches and stuff have been timid like... "is... .is this ok? can i do this?" That's what he says. Honestly, if you are turned down most of the time for 2 years... .you might be a little hesitant. I didn't *think* I was hesitant but he claims I was. But, they are pretty damn observant. (of other people of course)

I was not hesitant on Sunday. So... .I started to think back to how it was in the beginning, and there was a lot of dirty pics, texts things like that.