How do men initiate?

[Grey Kitty]

He also said last night something about how when I touch him I seem timid... .like I'm not exactly sure if this or that is ok (to be fair... .after 2 years of being slapped down most of the time... .it think anyone might feel unsure of themselves)

So... .I like this idea. Maybe I'll just be bolder.

DING, DING, DING! We have a winner here!

Timid is NOT sexy.

Bold and confident is sexy.

Be sexy.

(And let me say that being rejected with a full-on dysregulation when you approach your spouse about sex does NOT make being bold easy. My wife did that to me a lot during darker days a few years ago. I still am less sure of myself than I would like to be all too often.)

And a further comment... .when you touch your partner... .the other word I might use is tentative. Whatever level of intimacy, that sort is probably the worst.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

I was not hesitant on Sunday. So... .I started to think back to how it was in the beginning, and there was a lot of dirty pics, texts things like that.

OK... .I think I understand now... .

So... why wait till Friday?

[ColdEthyl]

I was not hesitant on Sunday. So... .I started to think back to how it was in the beginning, and there was a lot of dirty pics, texts things like that.

OK... .I think I understand now... .

So... why wait till Friday?

Well, since you asked... .Sunday's "lucky" was a BJ for him that ended with a BANG. I am on my period and should be off by then. Have I given you TMI, yet?  

[vortex of confusion]

DING, DING, DING! We have a winner here!

Timid is NOT sexy.

Bold and confident is sexy.

Be sexy.

Hey, that goes both ways! My husband is very timid, almost like he is scared of me at times.

I used to joke with him, "Now kiss me like you mean it!"

Hmmmm. . .more food for thought!

[Boss302]

I have a simple technique... .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M25sE8Ccapc

[Cole]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Sounded good, gave it a try. I now have clean laundry.

[Cat Familiar]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Sounded good, gave it a try. I now have clean laundry.

Hilarious! Sorry, Dude.

[MissyM]

Hey, that goes both ways! My husband is very timid, almost like he is scared of me at times.

I used to joke with him, "Now kiss me like you mean it!"

Hmmmm. . .more food for thought!

Hey, now stop having the same husband that I do!  

I used to say that I didn't want to have sex with a child, that it was really creepy because he was so terrified of me and fumbled around for what to do.  He always looked terrified.  That was during our almost no sex marriage.  Ugh!  Not a pleasant experience.  Think the only way he could have sex was to totally disassociate.  Thank goodness he has worked through that.  VOC, does your husband have a history of childhood sexual abuse or shaming?  It is just so similar to mine that it makes me wonder.

[formflier]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Sounded good, gave it a try. I now have clean laundry.

Keep swinging for the fences!  Tomorrow... .show up with bucket and mop... naked.  Next day... .broom.  Next day... .toilet brush... .

You get the picture... .she has to have a sense of humor in there someplace.  Keep working it...

[vortex of confusion]

Hey, now stop having the same husband that I do!  

I used to say that I didn't want to have sex with a child, that it was really creepy because he was so terrified of me and fumbled around for what to do.  He always looked terrified.  That was during our almost no sex marriage.  Ugh!  Not a pleasant experience.  Think the only way he could have sex was to totally disassociate.  Thank goodness he has worked through that.  VOC, does your husband have a history of childhood sexual abuse or shaming?  It is just so similar to mine that it makes me wonder.

I don't think there was sex abuse when he was a child but there was a lot of shame around sex because of his religion. He got a lot of mixed messages. In his church, there shouldn't be any sex outside of marriage, masturbation is a mortal sin, every sperm is sacred type stuff. He heard messages like that day in and day out in school and church. He went to a private religious school and had religion classes every single day for most of his life. Then, he found his dad's stash of porn. It was really confusing for him. He did have a questionable experience when he was in college with another guy. Not sure if that is part of the equation or not. I think it added to his confusion and was part of the reason that he thought he was bi for a little while.

[formflier]

 

Wow... .where is he at with religion now?

I'm a very religious guy. 

Luckily... .wife and I are on same page with religious teachings that say her body is mine... .and mine is hers.

And... .church pushes a practical message that guys that eat "fillet mignon" at home... .tend to not want to get a "cheap meal" out in town. 

Yeah... they make a big deal about no sex outside of marriage... .but inside marriage... .have at it!

[vortex of confusion]

Wow... .where is he at with religion now?

He is pretty inconsistent with his religion. He doesn't go to church any more but still prays and reads his prayer and meditation books. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect in his brain somewhere.

Luckily... .wife and I are on same page with religious teachings that say her body is mine... .and mine is hers.

That would be great if he would just take a bit of ownership. (The magic button to get him excited was me being with somebody else.)

And... .church pushes a practical message that guys that eat "fillet mignon" at home... .tend to not want to get a "cheap meal" out in town. 

I have always agreed with that sentiment and have tried to make sure that he got plenty of fillet mignon accompanied by a six course meal.   

Yeah... they make a big deal about no sex outside of marriage... .but inside marriage... .have at it!

And that was my take on things. I thought I was getting married so that I could get as much as I wanted whenever I wanted without worrying about any kind of repercussions. One of the purposes of marriage is to procreate. 

[Cat Familiar]

In the daytime, I'm often so busy with projects around our place, it's not my habit to seek him out. And I know that I really should try to change this because he's much nicer when he get some. 

So... .what time will you seek him out today?   

Well I did and we ended up just cuddling because he had stopped for lunch, had a bad hamburger and fries and the resultant tummy ache. Cuddling was nice though. Thanks for the nudge. 

[MissyM]

I don't think there was sex abuse when he was a child but there was a lot of shame around sex because of his religion. He got a lot of mixed messages. In his church, there shouldn't be any sex outside of marriage, masturbation is a mortal sin, every sperm is sacred type stuff. He heard messages like that day in and day out in school and church. He went to a private religious school and had religion classes every single day for most of his life. Then, he found his dad's stash of porn. It was really confusing for him. He did have a questionable experience when he was in college with another guy. Not sure if that is part of the equation or not. I think it added to his confusion and was part of the reason that he thought he was bi for a little while.

Interesting.  My dBPDh has a similar background, a religion that was sexually shaming and a father that was an alcoholic and sex addict.  His father would be drunk and exposed himself to my husband when he was little, as well as him finding his father's porn and learning of him having sex with prostitutes when he was a teen.  Yet at Church (he is LDS) sex was considered very sinful and not allowed at all.  Both of these things led to a lot of confusion.  On one hand women were objectified/abused and on the other hand they were to be avoided at all cost in any way sexually or it was a mortal sin.  No wonder my dBPDh was terrified around the issue.  Sounds like your husband had similar contradictory messages.  None of it is healthy sexuality.

[Cole]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Sounded good, gave it a try. I now have clean laundry.

Keep swinging for the fences!  Tomorrow... .show up with bucket and mop... naked.  Next day... .broom.  Next day... .toilet brush... .

Already the plan. House needs a good cleaning!

You get the picture... .she has to have a sense of humor in there someplace.  Keep working it...

[Notwendy]

The topic of religion has been brought up in my ACOA group, as some people struggle with the idea of a higher power. How religion plays out in action is dependent on who is doing the action, and we all are aware of examples of people using it for good things and also terrible things.

It would make sense then, that people raised in dysfunctional families would have also been exposed to religion in a dysfunctional way. Shaming, abusive, critial parents, controlling parents would present God in that way. My parents were not heavy handed with religion, but they were rarely forgiving. Even now, my mother brings up things I did in childhood or as a teen. As far as she is concerned, if I didn't share a candy bar with my sibling, I was a mean selfish person, not a little kid who didn't want to share the candy, like most kids do. So even though they didn't teach me this- my idea of God was one who would never forget and never forgive. I had to change that idea as an adult. Many people in my ACOA group who have had an idea of a "I'm going to get you God" have changed denominations, given up religion, chosen another one, or revisited their ideas of what they thought God was, in order to start over with something that doesn't have baggage from how they were raised.

[Rail33]

I agree with Cold on the atmosphere now as I feel like I don't know who she is and I really  don't know what will happen during or after sex.  I had to think for a minute as to how I used to initiate and it could be many ways, the normal slow kissing moving down the neck, a footrub or massage, slipping into the shower or tub and sometimes just pressing her firmly against the wall or doorway... .sorry if I was too detailed... .got a little caught up... .LOL

Today I just don't trust her and don't trust that she will stay in the same emotional state long enough to really feel anything. 

[MissyM]

The topic of religion has been brought up in my ACOA group, as some people struggle with the idea of a higher power. How religion plays out in action is dependent on who is doing the action, and we all are aware of examples of people using it for good things and also terrible things.

Yes, it is true.  I have friends in recovery from all kinds of religions and sexual shaming was an issue for most that I know in recovery.  There has been a big shift in many religions, LDS included, to get away from sexual shaming.  Now that the damage is known and there is more awareness of porn addiction and sex addiction, many church's have taken a softer approach.  Since the goal is healthy sexuality in marriage, the way to get there has changed in many religions.  I was fortunate because my father did not want us to be raised in as rigid an environment as he was and was adamant that we have a loving, caring view of God and not a punitive view.

[formflier]

my idea of God was one who would never forget and never forgive. 

Forgiveness is a huge issue... .if you don't accept forgiveness... .not much chance you will pass it on.

If there is not forgiveness... .wow... .I don't know where that leads... .not good.

[ColdEthyl]

This is all a very interesting topic. My dBPDh experienced some religion issues growing up. His mother wasn't religious at all until he was about 8. The church she got into was sort of cultish from the description... .they believed their pastor was a prophet... women couldn't cut hair, had to wear dresses, etc etc. He said he was forced to go, and his father never went... .he refuses to. Sometimes his dad would bail him out and say he's going to take him fishing... .but he would leave him at home and go fishing with his older cousins. That hurt him a lot. Also, he talks about his mom and sister buying new dresses, purses, etc etc for church and he would still have holes in his shoes. His mother forced him to get baptized, and by the age of 12 they were trying to make him cut his hair (My husband is Native and preferred his long hair not to be cut) he eventually decided to run away and be on his own rather than live under their rules.

His sexual past isn't much prettier. He was raped and drugged by a family friend repeatedly. He says that didn't affect him, but I'm pretty sure between that and feeling like 'the forgotten child' as one of his mom's neighbors described him (she said he was always playing outside alone and she never saw much interaction with him and the rest of the family. She told me she always felt so sad for him out there playing alone) he has baggage from it.

He was pretty experimental sexually in his 20s, some experiences with males, swinging, etc etc

I sometimes wonder if regular everyday white bread sex just doesn't do it for him... .or he simply just doesn't even know how to function in that type of scenario.

[Crumbling]

    Thanks for everyone's input!

This is so interesting!  Isn't that something, that the topic of sex became about religion!

They are both such deep rooted notions. 

I too cannot imagine life without forgiveness... .humans error, it's what we do... .how could one live life without accepting that and forgiving mistakes, both our own and each others.  I also don't understand a God who judges.  My God wants us to not judge each other, and to accept each other for who we are.  Why would he turn around then, and judge me at the final hour?  My God knows where my heart is and that is between me and him, like in a relationship, not a dictatorship.

I think my BPDh's issue stems more from a fear of intimacy, or some deep rooted lack of empathy (I know, I know, that's BPD).  Be right back.

[Crumbling]

My BPDh is very timid with sex, he shies away from anything new, different or the least bit off the norm.  That's being nice, he does more than shy away, he dysregs... .unless it's his idea, his attempt, his suggestion... .and he doesn't ever want anything different, except if it's a fantasy/desire of his.  After ten years, I know all of these, seen it, done it and bought the tee shirt, in every size.

I'm going to continue on the other thread, I don't know why I started two.

[MaroonLiquid]

Luckily... .wife and I are on same page with religious teachings that say her body is mine... .and mine is hers.

Same here.  We believe the same way.  I have always enjoyed giving her back rubs and she takes full advantage of it and always gets her in the mood.  Sex has never been an issue in our marriage up until the separation.  Until then, we would have sex 2-5 times a week and it was never dull and very rarely did it feel pushed.  It's gotten better over the course of the separation where for the first four months it was only like once, or maybe twice.  Since things have started to change for the better, we are now up to once a week on average because of the silent treatment at times she tries to pull.  After the wreck over the weekend, I stayed with my wife (slept in our daughter's room) and the first two nights, our daughter that was in the wreck with me slept in the room with her.  I never said anything about it because I know she was dealing with some pain and my wife wanted to keep an eye on her.  Night before last, my wife asked me where I wanted to sleep, in the room with her or in our daughter's room again.  Since she hadn't said anything about it, I knew right away that she wanted me to sleep with her.  I told her I would like to sleep in bed with her and she said, "OK."  She told our daughter that she needed to sleep in her room and she threw a fit.  I almost laughed because she lied to our daughter about the reason why telling her that I got too hot in the room... .Seriously?  How about the fact that we're married and you don't need to explain yourself?  Mentally, I was just like, "Whatever" and let it go. I will say it was incredible the other night though.  She was very loving, and into it, and then yesterday morning started pulling away and said yesterday evening it was "just sex" in her mind to try and hurt me.  Oh well.  It doesn't... .

[Grey Kitty]

Luckily... .wife and I are on same page with religious teachings that say her body is mine... .and mine is hers.

I'm not of that sort of faith... .and when I hear that, some serious alarm bells go off... .not religious ones. FF and the rest of you, I'm pretty sure you are with me here... .but I just cannot let the possibility of somebody else misunderstanding this happen.

There is a fundamental boundary issue here.

Everybody's body is THEIRS. If in any way you engage in sex with your wife without her willing consent, that is a HORRIBLE boundary violation. The word for that boundary violation is rape.

Same with your body--If your wife does something to/with it without your consent, it is the same violation.

OK... .I'm off my soapbox.  Please resume the otherwise great discussion here.

[ColdEthyl]

  Thanks for everyone's input!

This is so interesting!  Isn't that something, that the topic of sex became about religion!

They are both such deep rooted notions. 

I too cannot imagine life without forgiveness... .humans error, it's what we do... .how could one live life without accepting that and forgiving mistakes, both our own and each others.  I also don't understand a God who judges.  My God wants us to not judge each other, and to accept each other for who we are.  Why would he turn around then, and judge me at the final hour?  My God knows where my heart is and that is between me and him, like in a relationship, not a dictatorship.

I think my BPDh's issue stems more from a fear of intimacy, or some deep rooted lack of empathy (I know, I know, that's BPD).  Be right back.

I think it's a 'perfect storm' situation. pwBPD tend to be of higher intelligence, and often suffered neglect/abuse. What's odd to me is I'm considered above average intelligence and suffered neglect and abuse but my mental disorders are different. I have generalized anxiety disorder, addiction issues, co-dependency, and I just read the article on here about the three faces of victims and CRAP. I am definitely a caregiver, and the reason stated are exactly what I think so... .I'm going to have to work on that.

As far as my personal beliefs in a God... .one one hand it's hard for me to believe in things I cannot see or have evidence of. On the other, there are things that happen in my life where I question and ponder. For instance, a co-worker might be going through a situation where her child might be being molested, or least exposed to things she shouldn't be. I can help her because I have gone through it. It was the absolute worst time of my life, but had I not gone through it, I would not know what to look for to help someone else. SO, when something like that happens, I do wonder if there's a higher being... .or a reason why things happen after all.

My conclusion is I have no friggin' idea, and I won't be arrogant enough to make a decision. I'd like to think if their was a God who made us the way we are,  they would understand us and love us. /shrug

As Mags Bennett on Justified once said, "At some point or another, we will all learn the "Great Mystery".

[formflier]

Luckily... .wife and I are on same page with religious teachings that say her body is mine... .and mine is hers.

I'm not of that sort of faith... .and when I hear that, some serious alarm bells go off... .not religious ones. FF and the rest of you, I'm pretty sure you are with me here... .but I just cannot let the possibility of somebody else misunderstanding this happen.

There is a fundamental boundary issue here.

Everybody's body is THEIRS. If in any way you engage in sex with your wife without her willing consent, that is a HORRIBLE boundary violation. The word for that boundary violation is rape.

Same with your body--If your wife does something to/with it without your consent, it is the same violation.

OK... .I'm off my soapbox.  Please resume the otherwise great discussion here.

Yeah... .I should have explained that more... .or kept my mouth shut.  If anyone reads this... and is conservative Christian (like me)... and with a person that has BPD traits (like my wife)... .I would be happy to start a separate thread.   

These Christian teachings about putting you partner first... .trying to emulate Christ... work well if you are "equally yoked".  However... .in a r/s with BPD traits... .you are not "equally yoked"... .and... .as predicted in the Bible... .problems occur.

So... the quick version... .is that Biblical Christian teaching says that when you marry... .you make the other more important than you... .and that you are available to them for sex except for mutually agreed on times that you both then spend in prayer.  As a spouse... .your goal is to "serve" the other... rather than take care of your own needs.

If both do this... .it works well... .

I'll hush... .back to sex thread.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .