I think my ex manipulated me into seeing her again

[paperlung]

First off, I would just like to admit that I take full responsibility for my actions. I'm an adult, and as adult, I am free to make decisions of my own accord. Good or bad.

Cliffs:

- Ex contacts me in November telling me she wants to move back to my area and in with her dad again because she is very unhappy where she is living.

- Ex tells me how she's going to get on-going mental health treatment when she moves.

- Ex moves back at the very beginning of December.

- Ex tells me she would like to see me, but says she wouldn't feel hurt if I chose not to. Said she'd understand why.

- I tell her I would feel a lot more comfortable seeing her if I knew she was making good progress with her life.

- Days later she tells me she's going to take this Veterinary Assistant Program in April. I suddenly feel there is hope for her.

- A week later, after I had finished my exams and was on break, I decide to meet her (it was my first time seeing her in person in over a year). We walked my dog around the park and made small talk. I  then dropped her off home. Saw her maybe for an hour max.

- We continue to text daily, her being the one initiating conversation most of the time.

- One day (still in December) she asks me what I'm up to. This led to me coming over to her dad's place to play video games with her.

- I asked her if she was still going to get treatment and she said she didn't need it anymore. All she had been doing since moving back was fool around on POF and Tinder.

- She was on her period, but still tried to make moves on me. I felt very uncomfortable. She was touching me all over, kissing my neck, and even tried to undo my belt buckle.

- I stop her. We talk some more, then I left. On my way out she tells me how she would've given me oral. I just rolled my eyes.

- We continue to text daily, and she is still the one initiating most of the time.

- Beginning of January I ask her if she wants to accompany me to Chapters because I got a gift card for Christmas and I knew how much she loved books. I had to cancel on her that same day though because I found out about a dinner I had to go to.

- The next day I try asking her again, but she tells me she is with a friend. Some random guy she was meeting off POF for the first time.

- It was at this moment that I realized, "Just what the hell am I doing here? This is my ex." So later that night I decided to write her an e-mail telling her how I didn't want to hear from or see her again. I didn't like what I saw or heard out of her the two times we met; didn't look like she wanted to change.

- I don't hear from her for 10 days, and within that time, she quickly jumped into a relationship with that same guy off POF. When I did hear from her 10 days later after I wrote her that e-mail, it was through text message. She sent me a huge long rage text because I labeled her as BPD on some other forum she knows I post at. I replied back, and then we began arguing back and forth until she decided to call me because she was tired of text messaging me. We talked on the phone for an hour or so. I found out from her that she wasn't going to do the Veterinary Assistant Program in April, after all.

- Another 10 days pass and she sends me a text out of the blue telling me she's going to try making videos on YouTube as a means of income. I wish her good luck. Turns out that same day her POF boyfriend broke up with her via text. I don't really know the full details, other then distance being a problem. But he doesn't talk to her anymore, apparently.

- A few days later she text messages me again telling me more about her YouTube and how she's making out with it. This got me communicating more with her again.

So now it's February.

February 2: She texts me to say that the mental health clinic called and told her they couldn't do nothing for her and that she should go see a doctor to get a referral to see a psych. She told me her sleeping pattern was a mess, how she wasn't eating, and was depressed. Said she even considered going to the ER and just be like, "Someone help!" She told me she wished she wasn't such a up. She also apologized saying, "Sorry for being like this if I'm bothering you, but even though I talk to lots of people (POF and Tinder guys) I can`t divulge into this type of stuff really. It's very humiliating for me." We texted some more that evening, and she even asked for a hug. I told her I was busy studying for a Biology quiz I had the next, which was completely true.

February 3: She messages me on my way to class telling me she applied for welfare because she didn't want to cam (get naked for strangers on the internet and masturbate for money) any longer. She also said she'd go to the doctor tomorrow (Wednesday the 4th) to get a psych referral. She then went on to write the most self-aware message I have heard from her in a long time:

"I became very aware that I would not sustain a healthy functioning relationship like this, a job, or living alone. I had thoughts of moving out of my dad's place because I hate living here but I needed to think in the bigger grand scheme of things in my life. I am incapable of taking care of myself right now and the last thing I need to do is put myself in a position where I've been for the last two years. The last months in X (where she was before she moved back home) really changed me. And I apologize for acting like everything was fine when I spoke with you about it all before."

We text some more while I'm at school and then she asks me what I'm doing later. I tell her nothing, just that I'm on a 10-minute break and just finished my Bio quiz. She asks how it went, I tell her good... .and then... .she drops the bombshell on me.

"This may be a little straightforward but do you wanna maybe have sex later?"

I kind of avoid the subject, but then later she sends me a very alluring photo of her in these panties.

I then text her this: "I want to ask you something, and I want you to be completely honest with me. What am I to you? How do you feel about me? When I saw you back in December those two times you did not bother to ask me a single thing about myself. Actually, I take that back. You did, but they were two very extraneous questions. One was how many girls I've slept with and the other was if I still had a six pack or not. Nothing about what I had been up to, if I had been anywhere/done anything exciting, or picked up a new hobby, ect. You made me feel very unimportant that night. You dominated the conversation, which was fine; you're life is a lot more... .interesting than mine, but to not be asked anything meaningful? I always believed I was a good boyfriend and person to you, so I just thought you'd care more when we reunited."

Her reply: "Next time I see you, I'll make you feel important. I'll make everything about you. I'm sorry. You are and were a good person to me. How do I feel about you? I see you as someone who's known me at my best and worst. Someone who is there for me despite what happened and someone I can genuinely get a long with."

So it's around 4 or 5 PM, and I tell her there's a game on at 7 that I wanted to watch, and if I wasn't home to watch it with my dad and brother, they'd suspect something was up since we always watch the games together and I didn't feel like answering to them about where I'm going. Essentially, I was trying to make excuses to avoid seeing her that night. I even tell her that tomorrow (February 4th) would be better for me because I didn't have any classes that day and we could spend the day doing something fun. She tells me she might have plans that day; I didn't know whether to believe her or not.

So... .I ended up going over to her place around 7 to watch the game with her in bed. Most of the time she'd either be having a cigarette or checking her phone (POF and Tinder). As soon as the game finishes, which was around 10, she shifts all of her attention onto me. Starts getting all flirtatious with me, asking me what I wanted to do next. I still felt very uncomfortable and suggested we watch a movie or something. She basically ignored that and started to cuddle me and stuff. I tried making out with her but stopped, it just felt off.

She eventually grabs another smoke and sits on the opposite side of the bed from me in the dark and we begin to talk about more stuff that happened in her past and our past as a couple for like over an hour. She tells me how she doesn't want a boyfriend, and just wants to meet new people (guys) and if sex happens, it happens. She calls herself a hedonist.

Then she pulls a couple of condoms out and just assumes it's going to happen. Well it eventually did, and it was pretty long and intense, even though I never climaxed. She looked pretty upset by that. She even asked me afterwards how good she was/if she was any better than before. I thought that was a strange thing to ask, but figured it tied into her self-worth/self-esteem, which she openly admits she has very little of.

We lied in her bed afterwards, with her nestled closely beside me, and we just talked more. She'd frequently give me a kiss here and there whenever we talked about something we did together that gave her good memories. Just very, very affectionate. She also cried to me, telling me how worthless and pathetic she feels. How everyone she knows is doing something with their life and she isn't. And how she thinks she's going to end up dying young. For the record, she never really asked much about me even though she said she would the next time we met. I basically had to shove pictures in her face with my phone to show her some of the things I had done since we last saw each other.

February 4: I leave her place around 6 AM and sleep till 2 PM. She sends me a text at 10 PM telling me she had been sleeping since 6 AM. Said it could've been from her body shutting down from not eating or hypersomnia from depression.

She initiated contact with me on the 5th and 6th as well in the morning. On the 5th I remember her saying how we had to go to this restaurant we once ate again. I didn't hear from on the 7th. On the 8th, which was yesterday, she sent me a text in the afternoon asking how my weekend was. She told me she was in the city the whole time (I assume on a meet up/date with some new POF/Tinder guy).

Later that night, she sends me a text telling me how she needs to move out. I ask her why and she says, "Because it makes me anxious and depressed to be here. I don't like living in this house (with her dad) or in X."

I then pasted and sent what she wrote to me on February 3rd. You know, "I became very aware that I would not sustain a healthy functioning relationship like this, a job, or living alone. I had thoughts of moving out of my dad's place because I hate living here but I needed to think in the bigger grand scheme of things in my life. Ect, ect."

She then said, "I dunno what's worth it anymore at the end of the day. I shouldn't of said anything to you."

I reply, ":)o what you want. I'm tired of caring." And then she sends me a :s face.

Wonder if I'll hear from her today.

======================================


I'm really starting to believe that she just tells me what I want to hear so I'll continue to talk to her/see her. She still hasn't seen the doctor about getting a referral. But if she does decide to move out at this stage on her own or with some random guy she hardly knows, I'm going NC again. I swear on my adorable little wiener dog's life.

[Recooperating]

Hi Paperlung... :

Thats quite a story there! Im sorry you had to deal with this.

Reading your story I couldnt help but quite often think... .Really? What a skank! No offence Paperplung. I know its not my place to judge but I find the lack of respect for you and your wishes, boundaries and feelings appaling!

Im sure that she has her good sides, but your like a side-dude for her. She can do what ever she wants on POF and Tinder and string you along on the side as a back up plan. If you are ok with this type of friends with benefits situation then thats ok ofcourse.

Between the lines I am reading that you are her emotional garbage bin she can dump her ___ in and then go on her way to do who or what ever she wants. You are the one investing in her and what do you get in return? Manipulated sex?

Its up to you Paperlung, if this is something you can enjoy and just have fun with then thats fine. But if you are looking for a rs built on respect, trust, equality and mutual give and take this doesnt sound like the path to take. In that case I would recommend NC and get out of the FOG again... .

Good luck!

[Mike-X]

What are you trying to get out of this relationship with her? At one point, it sounded like you were looking for validation from her: "What am I to you? How do you feel about me? When I saw you back in December those two times you did not bother to ask me a single thing about myself... .I always believed I was a good boyfriend and person to you, so I just thought you'd care more when we reunited."

Your title is confusing, given your first line of your post. Is she manipulating you or are you allowing yourself to be drawn back into a relationship that you really don't seem happy with? In particular, I am not clear on how you feel about the open part of the relationship, i.e., her on POF, masturbating for men online, etc.? I know men who are in truly open relationships, and all seem to enjoy seeing or knowing about their SO having sex with friends and strangers. It all seems to bother you. Are you ok with it? Why is her moving out "with some random guy she hardly knows" the deal-breaker leading to NC again? 

What about the lies about school, moving, and such? Are you ok being in a relationship, even just a sexual fling, with someone who lies about such things?

It all just reads to me as if you are still attached, but I could be wrong.  Do you feel strongly attached to her?

[myself]

A couple years ago, my ex and I were broken up for what I thought was the last time. She had told too many lies, there were other people she seemed to be involved with, and the levels of abuse she had dished out had become too extreme. So I said my piece, said goodbye, and walked. Many months later, she started contacting me, making promises, saying I was the only one for her, things would be different now, etc. Was she manipulating me? Yes, it turns out she was, but I went along with it. Because I still felt it was unfinished business with her. I was still in love with her. I thought if she was serious, it could work. I went back to make sure, even though I see now that I was already sure. I already knew who she was, how she acted, how she didn't face her problems and how that affected everyone in her life. Herself most of all. I felt sorry for her. Felt I could help her. Missed the friendship. But she didn't turn out to really be my friend. She couldn't be, not when she mostly just thinks about herself. So ask yourself, as the others here have asked you, why go back to her? What do you get out of it? What are you looking for, and are you finding it with her? Do you really think or see that she's capable of being a real partner with you? In the end, is it more painful to stay, or better to let go? Do you want to be respected by the person you're with? Respecting yourself as well? I feel for you. Good luck.

[paperlung]

Hi Paperlung... :

Thats quite a story there! Im sorry you had to deal with this.

Reading your story I couldnt help but quite often think... .Really? What a skank! No offence Paperplung. I know its not my place to judge but I find the lack of respect for you and your wishes, boundaries and feelings appaling!

She has turned into a little skank as of late. Definitely not the girl I used to know back in 2012. She says she loves her men, but is very selective on who she chooses to associate herself with. She's sort of a nympho, and relates to the main character in the movie "Nymphomaniac". She also said with social media, it's really hard for her not to get wandering eyes. I even said to her after she sent me the ":)o you want to have sex?" text that she didn't have to be so straight forward about it, could've just asked to hang out. And she said, "Nah, you probably would've just seen right through that." I honestly wouldn't have because last time I went to her place she tried to seduce me and I didn't take part in it. I would have figured hang out just meant that: hang out.

Im sure that she has her good sides, but your like a side-dude for her. She can do what ever she wants on POF and Tinder and string you along on the side as a back up plan. If you are ok with this type of friends with benefits situation then thats ok ofcourse.

I'm not so sure I am. I'm all for dating multiple people at once, but having sex with them all too? Not really an attractive quality to me.

Between the lines I am reading that you are her emotional garbage bin she can dump her in and then go on her way to do who or what ever she wants. You are the one investing in her and what do you get in return? Manipulated sex?

I expressed that to her over the phone before I came over; that I didn't want to be her emotional tampon.

Its up to you Paperlung, if this is something you can enjoy and just have fun with then thats fine. But if you are looking for a rs built on respect, trust, equality and mutual give and take this doesnt sound like the path to take. In that case I would recommend NC and get out of the FOG again... .

Good luck!

You know what I enjoyed? Just spending time with her. She was my first girlfriend and first and only girl I've ever been in love with. I don't think this is something I can sustain, at least not with her. She's really messed up in the head, and doesn't know whether she's coming over going.

[paperlung]

What are you trying to get out of this relationship with her? At one point, it sounded like you were looking for validation from her: "What am I to you? How do you feel about me? When I saw you back in December those two times you did not bother to ask me a single thing about myself... .I always believed I was a good boyfriend and person to you, so I just thought you'd care more when we reunited."

Validation in the sense that I mean more to her than just some quick screw? Then, yes.

Your title is confusing, given your first line of your post. Is she manipulating you or are you allowing yourself to be drawn back into a relationship that you really don't seem happy with? In particular, I am not clear on how you feel about the open part of the relationship, i.e., her on POF, masturbating for men online, etc.? I know men who are in truly open relationships, and all seem to enjoy seeing or knowing about their SO having sex with friends and strangers. It all seems to bother you. Are you ok with it? Why is her moving out "with some random guy she hardly knows" the deal-breaker leading to NC again? 

Because it's the wrong decision to make. My ex gets moments of clarity but then loses them when she gets depressed. Again, read what she wrote to me the day she convinced me to come over.

"I became very aware that I would not sustain a healthy functioning relationship like this, a job, or living alone. I had thoughts of moving out of my dad's place because I hate living here but I needed to think in the bigger grand scheme of things in my life. I am incapable of taking care of myself right now and the last thing I need to do is put myself in a position where I've been for the last two years. The last months in X (where she was before she moved back home) really changed me. And I apologize for acting like everything was fine when I spoke with you about it all before."

Moving out is the worst thing she could do. Every time she has done so she turned out miserable. What she needs to focus on is improving her overall mental and physical well-being. She needs to quit the camming, see a psych, get therapy for her eating disorder and maybe depression as well. Not just run away from her problems by moving out again.

What about the lies about school, moving, and such? Are you ok being in a relationship, even just a sexual fling, with someone who lies about such things?

Do you think they were lies? Or just her being the impulsive person that she is. She told me she is in not condition right now to attend college. Hell, she dropped out of high school in Grade 8 and has bad anxiety. I never really saw her being able to do the program, anyway. But she said later on, "I don't think I could handle putting the animals to sleep." Okay, fair enough.

As for moving out? She hasn't done so yet. This was just something she told me last night. If she does move out, it'll show she isn't completely committed to getting better. She's making excuses about hating where she currently lives, which isn't even THAT bad. She's close to everything.

It all just reads to me as if you are still attached, but I could be wrong.  Do you feel strongly attached to her?

Yes. First girlfriend, first love, ect. I care about her a lot. She even told me the night I slept with her that I'm a very important person to her. Who knows what that means, though.

[paperlung]

Sent my ex a text message tonight.


Me: Still thinking of moving out? Or have you come back to your senses?

Her: Lol

Me: It's not funny.

Her: But you're tired of caring!

Me: Can you really blame me? You always tell me what I want to hear. You're a manipulator. I can't believe a word you say. Congratulations, you got me in your bed after some convincing realizations made on your behalf.

Me: You did it with the Veterinary Assistant Program and the on-going mental health support, and now you're potentially doing it again. How can you re-read what you wrote to me and not realize what's best for your physical and mental health at the moment?

Me: Got nothing to say, huh?

Her: Nope.

Me: Hard to argue with the truth, I guess. Really think to yourself here. How many people in your life actually genuinely give a crap about as a person and your overall health and wellness? Because I know your family sure doesn't. And I'm talking about people who know the REAL you, at your very core. Not too many, I bet. You told me that night I last saw you that I was very important to you. Well, if you decide to go run off again (moving out on your own or in with some random POF/Tinder guy) instead of remaining steadfast on what you said to me last week, then I no longer want you in my life in any form. You will just be repeating the same old cycle. Because moving out to [x location] made you so much better. So did moving to [x location]. So did moving to [x location]. And so did moving to [x location].



She isn't replying to me, which is hardly like her. Usually she'll respond to me right away. Also took her quite a while to just respond with "Nope."

[HappyNihilist]

Are you still texting her? I would advise that, if you are, you take a little break. I know you have a lot that you want to say to her. Say it here instead.

I know it's painful, confusing, and frustrating. But this isn't going to help the situation. Step away from her for a bit. Take care of you.

[Mike-X]

Sent my ex a text message tonight.

Me: Still thinking of moving out? Or have you come back to your senses?

Her: Lol

Me: It's not funny.

Her: But you're tired of caring!

Me: Can you really blame me? You always tell me what I want to hear. You're a manipulator. I can't believe a word you say. Congratulations, you got me in your bed after some convincing realizations made on your behalf.

Me: You did it with the Veterinary Assistant Program and the on-going mental health support, and now you're potentially doing it again. How can you re-read what you wrote to me and not realize what's best for your physical and mental health at the moment?

Me: Got nothing to say, huh?

Her: Nope.

Me: Hard to argue with the truth, I guess. Really think to yourself here. How many people in your life actually genuinely give a crap about as a person and your overall health and wellness? Because I know your family sure doesn't. And I'm talking about people who know the REAL you, at your very core. Not too many, I bet. You told me that night I last saw you that I was very important to you. Well, if you decide to go run off again (moving out on your own or in with some random POF/Tinder guy) instead of remaining steadfast on what you said to me last week, then I no longer want you in my life in any form. You will just be repeating the same old cycle. Because moving out to [x location] made you so much better. So did moving to [x location]. So did moving to [x location]. And so did moving to [x location]

She isn't replying to me, which is hardly like her. Usually she'll respond to me right away. Also took her quite a while to just respond with "Nope."

Sorry that she is not responding.

Why 'LOL' and 'But you're tired of caring!'?

Which of the lessons on this site have you read? Have you read any books on BPD? Anything on radical acceptance? Any books on relationships? Just asking about your background.

I do appreciate your responses to my previous questions. Unfortunately, I might not be able to respond more tonight, because I have a lot of work to do.

Your responses and questions to her are logical, if you were interacting with someone without BPD. With people with BPD, you are going to have to radically change your way of communicating. If she does have BPD, confronting her in the way that you did in those texts, although reasonable responses and questions to a non, is not likely to get her to see how poorly she been treating you and get her to try to make amends.  Read through the different threads on here where people have gone down similar frustrating roads.

Try to find the success stories in the 'staying' section, and try to learn what they did.

The study that I read estimated that it takes 2-10 years of therapy to overcome BPD, with very few dropping below clinical criteria within 5 years.

[Mike-X]

Are you still texting her? I would advise that, if you are, you take a little break. I know you have a lot that you want to say to her. Say it here instead.

I know it's painful, confusing, and frustrating. But this isn't going to help the situation. Step away from her for a bit. Take care of you.

I definitely agree.

[paperlung]

Are you still texting her? I would advise that, if you are, you take a little break. I know you have a lot that you want to say to her. Say it here instead.

I know it's painful, confusing, and frustrating. But this isn't going to help the situation. Step away from her for a bit. Take care of you.

I am still replying to her, yes. She has sent me text messages every day since Monday the 3rd (except for Saturday the 7th. That day I believe she was on a date with her current idealized victim). Tonight was the first time I initiated conversation since January 4th.

I am going away on a trip this Wednesday to Saturday, so I'll be quiet. I'm sure she'll see him again this Saturday (Valentines Day)  

[paperlung]

Sent my ex a text message tonight.

Me: Still thinking of moving out? Or have you come back to your senses?

Her: Lol

Me: It's not funny.

Her: But you're tired of caring!

Me: Can you really blame me? You always tell me what I want to hear. You're a manipulator. I can't believe a word you say. Congratulations, you got me in your bed after some convincing realizations made on your behalf.

Me: You did it with the Veterinary Assistant Program and the on-going mental health support, and now you're potentially doing it again. How can you re-read what you wrote to me and not realize what's best for your physical and mental health at the moment?

Me: Got nothing to say, huh?

Her: Nope.

Me: Hard to argue with the truth, I guess. Really think to yourself here. How many people in your life actually genuinely give a crap about as a person and your overall health and wellness? Because I know your family sure doesn't. And I'm talking about people who know the REAL you, at your very core. Not too many, I bet. You told me that night I last saw you that I was very important to you. Well, if you decide to go run off again (moving out on your own or in with some random POF/Tinder guy) instead of remaining steadfast on what you said to me last week, then I no longer want you in my life in any form. You will just be repeating the same old cycle. Because moving out to [x location] made you so much better. So did moving to [x location]. So did moving to [x location]. And so did moving to [x location]

She isn't replying to me, which is hardly like her. Usually she'll respond to me right away. Also took her quite a while to just respond with "Nope."

Sorry that she is not responding.

Why 'LOL' and 'But you're tired of caring!'?

Which of the lessons on this site have you read? Have you read any books on BPD? Anything on radical acceptance? Any books on relationships? Just asking about your background.

I do appreciate your responses to my previous questions. Unfortunately, I might not be able to respond more tonight, because I have a lot of work to do.

Your responses and questions to her are logical, if you were interacting with someone without BPD. With people with BPD, you are going to have to radically change your way of communicating. If she does have BPD, confronting her in the way that you did in those texts, although reasonable responses and questions to a non, is not likely to get her to see how poorly she been treating you and get her to try to make amends.  Read through the different threads on here where people have gone down similar frustrating roads.

Try to find the success stories in the 'staying' section, and try to learn what they did.

The study that I read estimated that it takes 2-10 years of therapy to overcome BPD, with very few dropping below clinical criteria within 5 years.

I've read a lot of threads on here and the Walking on Eggshells Book. YouTube videos on BPD as well.

All I know is she's one messed up, sick, confused, impulsive, lost, depressed, little girl.

Why do you think she was being so cold to me? Do you think maybe it was because she knew I was right and had no real, soild retort?

[mrwigand]

Sent my ex a text message tonight.

Me: Still thinking of moving out? Or have you come back to your senses?

Her: Lol

Me: It's not funny.

Her: But you're tired of caring!

Me: Can you really blame me? You always tell me what I want to hear. You're a manipulator. I can't believe a word you say. Congratulations, you got me in your bed after some convincing realizations made on your behalf.

Me: You did it with the Veterinary Assistant Program and the on-going mental health support, and now you're potentially doing it again. How can you re-read what you wrote to me and not realize what's best for your physical and mental health at the moment?

Me: Got nothing to say, huh?

Her: Nope.

Me: Hard to argue with the truth, I guess. Really think to yourself here. How many people in your life actually genuinely give a crap about as a person and your overall health and wellness? Because I know your family sure doesn't. And I'm talking about people who know the REAL you, at your very core. Not too many, I bet. You told me that night I last saw you that I was very important to you. Well, if you decide to go run off again (moving out on your own or in with some random POF/Tinder guy) instead of remaining steadfast on what you said to me last week, then I no longer want you in my life in any form. You will just be repeating the same old cycle. Because moving out to [x location] made you so much better. So did moving to [x location]. So did moving to [x location]. And so did moving to [x location]

She isn't replying to me, which is hardly like her. Usually she'll respond to me right away. Also took her quite a while to just respond with "Nope."

Sorry that she is not responding.

Why 'LOL' and 'But you're tired of caring!'?

Which of the lessons on this site have you read? Have you read any books on BPD? Anything on radical acceptance? Any books on relationships? Just asking about your background.

I do appreciate your responses to my previous questions. Unfortunately, I might not be able to respond more tonight, because I have a lot of work to do.

Your responses and questions to her are logical, if you were interacting with someone without BPD. With people with BPD, you are going to have to radically change your way of communicating. If she does have BPD, confronting her in the way that you did in those texts, although reasonable responses and questions to a non, is not likely to get her to see how poorly she been treating you and get her to try to make amends.  Read through the different threads on here where people have gone down similar frustrating roads.

Try to find the success stories in the 'staying' section, and try to learn what they did.

The study that I read estimated that it takes 2-10 years of therapy to overcome BPD, with very few dropping below clinical criteria within 5 years.

I've read a lot of threads on here and the Walking on Eggshells Book. YouTube videos on BPD as well.

All I know is she's one messed up, sick, confused, impulsive, lost, depressed, little girl.

Why do you think she was being so cold to me? Do you think maybe it was because she knew I was right and had no real, soild retort?

First of all, let me say I’m sorry that you’re going through this strain. Breakups are hard, especially if you go through an ambiguous recycle phase.

That being said, I might suggest that you are adding to the dysfunctional dance here more than you may realize. For instance, this texting conversation you highlighted with your ex… You asked why she was being so “cold”. In this case, maybe she was reacting coldly because she felt like she was being attacked. I’m sure from your perspective you thought you were giving her some much needed truth, but your texts seem very pointed. You call her a manipulator at one point and you even blame her for the fact that you two had sex. From what I read, you were just as willing a participant in the sex as she was, so I don't think that's a particularly fair thing to throw at her.

At the end of the day, maybe she didn't respond because she thought it was an unhealthy dialogue, and frankly I think it might have been. I'm not saying she doesn't need to hear some of these truths. Perhaps she does.

I understand that she's done a lot that you've felt was hurtful, but in order to get to a better place here it might be necessary to admit that you have willingly participated in this to a certain extent. And there's nothing wrong with that. None of us have navigated these relationships perfectly.

In any case, I hope for the best for you and your ex. It sounds like a difficult situation.

[mrwigand]

By the way, I also want to say that I think some of the comments made in reference to the ex-girlfriend in paperlung's original post perhaps were too harsh. I've seen the word "skank" thrown around on several occasions, and in general this woman has been attacked for her sexual decision-making, and I'm not sure those attacks are warranted.

I think acknowledging the unhealthy nature of some of these interactions is fine, but I don't think anyone needs to be called a skank, and in general I would just hate to see this devolve into slut-shaming.

[Infared]

Paperlung

I do not know what you want or expect here.

You are continually engaging with a very sick dysfunctional person who does nothing healthy for themselves. This person is in a continual downward spiral and you keep jumping in for a ride down to the bottom.

Good luck with that.

Hope you get healthy enough to move on with you life and at least save you.

[Blimblam]

Paper lung.

I get the sense you are really hurting. For the longest time and even now still 14 months out a part of me just belongs to my ex.  I accept that now but, in my interactions with my ex I was hoping it would work out even though all the evidence that she was not making any steps to confront herself and grow.  This upset me because I wanted this to work out for "us." It made

Me feel helpless to help the person I love more than anything in this damn world see.  To see herself the way I see her.  I was in too deep at that point and was drowning.  I needed to catch myself.  It's taken time and it's been more painful than anything I've ever experienced.  She's going to be who she is not who you would like her to be for the relationship you would like to have with her to work.  If you can accept that maybe one day she can be a booty call and a buddy.  Accept what is.  Stop fighting it surrender and accept defeat. 

[Mike-X]

Sent my ex a text message tonight.

Me: Still thinking of moving out? Or have you come back to your senses?

Her: Lol

Me: It's not funny.

Her: But you're tired of caring!

Me: Can you really blame me? You always tell me what I want to hear. You're a manipulator. I can't believe a word you say. Congratulations, you got me in your bed after some convincing realizations made on your behalf.

Me: You did it with the Veterinary Assistant Program and the on-going mental health support, and now you're potentially doing it again. How can you re-read what you wrote to me and not realize what's best for your physical and mental health at the moment?

Me: Got nothing to say, huh?

Her: Nope.

Me: Hard to argue with the truth, I guess. Really think to yourself here. How many people in your life actually genuinely give a crap about as a person and your overall health and wellness? Because I know your family sure doesn't. And I'm talking about people who know the REAL you, at your very core. Not too many, I bet. You told me that night I last saw you that I was very important to you. Well, if you decide to go run off again (moving out on your own or in with some random POF/Tinder guy) instead of remaining steadfast on what you said to me last week, then I no longer want you in my life in any form. You will just be repeating the same old cycle. Because moving out to [x location] made you so much better. So did moving to [x location]. So did moving to [x location]. And so did moving to [x location]

She isn't replying to me, which is hardly like her. Usually she'll respond to me right away. Also took her quite a while to just respond with "Nope."

Sorry that she is not responding.

Why 'LOL' and 'But you're tired of caring!'?

Which of the lessons on this site have you read? Have you read any books on BPD? Anything on radical acceptance? Any books on relationships? Just asking about your background.

I do appreciate your responses to my previous questions. Unfortunately, I might not be able to respond more tonight, because I have a lot of work to do.

Your responses and questions to her are logical, if you were interacting with someone without BPD. With people with BPD, you are going to have to radically change your way of communicating. If she does have BPD, confronting her in the way that you did in those texts, although reasonable responses and questions to a non, is not likely to get her to see how poorly she been treating you and get her to try to make amends.  Read through the different threads on here where people have gone down similar frustrating roads.

Try to find the success stories in the 'staying' section, and try to learn what they did.

The study that I read estimated that it takes 2-10 years of therapy to overcome BPD, with very few dropping below clinical criteria within 5 years.

I've read a lot of threads on here and the Walking on Eggshells Book. YouTube videos on BPD as well.

All I know is she's one messed up, sick, confused, impulsive, lost, depressed, little girl.

Why do you think she was being so cold to me? Do you think maybe it was because she knew I was right and had no real, soild retort?

It is good that you have invested time in learning about her disorder. I get the impression that you do care about her well-being. However, if she is truly suffering from BPD, it is unlikely that you will fix her. She has to want to be fixed, commit to getting fixed, and seek help from a qualified therapist who has had success in working with BPD.

From what you have said about her, it does not sound to me like she is at a point where she wants to be fixed. Although it does sound like she has some awareness of her issues, she seems to shift from considering it as a possibility to just avoiding or denying it. Denial and avoidance are huge problems therapists deal with when working with people with BPD.

As for her cold responses, you were and have been expressing your pain, frustration, and concern for her, and she responded with '' and 'but you're tired of caring.' My thought is that she is immature in dealing with feelings in relationships and doesn't know how to receive love from you ( or show you love and intimacy or even acknowledge your needs in the relationship).  Instead of dealing with what you are saying and engaging in a compassionate adult conversation with you about it, she sent an immature text letting you know that she knows that you are still attached. An adult capable and interested in a committed, loving relationship doesn't do such things when someone is reaching out as you were.

Talking with you about POF and boyfriends seems to have been a test your boundaries, at the very least, and possibly to push you away. Even her desperate 'have sex with me now' business, seems to have been disrespectful of your boundaries. You said 'no' and wanted to talk, but she continued to behave like a child, uninterested in adult interaction and true intimacy (as opposed to sex), as if she is like a child having a tantrum when not getting her way. Her reply to you leaving one time, because you were frustrated because of the lack of intimacy when trying to talk about things, was that she would have given you oral. Again, interested in her needs and not yours.

My bet is that real intimacy scares her, probably because love and intimacy are associated with pain and fear, so she engages in pseudo-intimate contact, which primarily seems to be sex, and pushes people like you away when she starts feeling close.

At this point, she seems to engage in push-pull behavior with you, and the pulling seems to come when she is bored.

However, I don't think that my analysis is news to you. Sex to have sex is one thing (but be safe in terms of STDs and potential false accusations, which happens with BPD), but don't confuse sex with intimacy and love.

[paperlung]

Sent my ex a text message tonight.

Me: Still thinking of moving out? Or have you come back to your senses?

Her: Lol

Me: It's not funny.

Her: But you're tired of caring!

Me: Can you really blame me? You always tell me what I want to hear. You're a manipulator. I can't believe a word you say. Congratulations, you got me in your bed after some convincing realizations made on your behalf.

Me: You did it with the Veterinary Assistant Program and the on-going mental health support, and now you're potentially doing it again. How can you re-read what you wrote to me and not realize what's best for your physical and mental health at the moment?

Me: Got nothing to say, huh?

Her: Nope.

Me: Hard to argue with the truth, I guess. Really think to yourself here. How many people in your life actually genuinely give a crap about as a person and your overall health and wellness? Because I know your family sure doesn't. And I'm talking about people who know the REAL you, at your very core. Not too many, I bet. You told me that night I last saw you that I was very important to you. Well, if you decide to go run off again (moving out on your own or in with some random POF/Tinder guy) instead of remaining steadfast on what you said to me last week, then I no longer want you in my life in any form. You will just be repeating the same old cycle. Because moving out to [x location] made you so much better. So did moving to [x location]. So did moving to [x location]. And so did moving to [x location]

She isn't replying to me, which is hardly like her. Usually she'll respond to me right away. Also took her quite a while to just respond with "Nope."

Sorry that she is not responding.

Why 'LOL' and 'But you're tired of caring!'?

Which of the lessons on this site have you read? Have you read any books on BPD? Anything on radical acceptance? Any books on relationships? Just asking about your background.

I do appreciate your responses to my previous questions. Unfortunately, I might not be able to respond more tonight, because I have a lot of work to do.

Your responses and questions to her are logical, if you were interacting with someone without BPD. With people with BPD, you are going to have to radically change your way of communicating. If she does have BPD, confronting her in the way that you did in those texts, although reasonable responses and questions to a non, is not likely to get her to see how poorly she been treating you and get her to try to make amends.  Read through the different threads on here where people have gone down similar frustrating roads.

Try to find the success stories in the 'staying' section, and try to learn what they did.

The study that I read estimated that it takes 2-10 years of therapy to overcome BPD, with very few dropping below clinical criteria within 5 years.

I've read a lot of threads on here and the Walking on Eggshells Book. YouTube videos on BPD as well.

All I know is she's one messed up, sick, confused, impulsive, lost, depressed, little girl.

Why do you think she was being so cold to me? Do you think maybe it was because she knew I was right and had no real, soild retort?

First of all, let me say I’m sorry that you’re going through this strain. Breakups are hard, especially if you go through an ambiguous recycle phase.

That being said, I might suggest that you are adding to the dysfunctional dance here more than you may realize. For instance, this texting conversation you highlighted with your ex… You asked why she was being so “cold”. In this case, maybe she was reacting coldly because she felt like she was being attacked. I’m sure from your perspective you thought you were giving her some much needed truth, but your texts seem very pointed. You call her a manipulator at one point and you even blame her for the fact that you two had sex. From what I read, you were just as willing a participant in the sex as she was, so I don't think that's a particularly fair thing to throw at her.

At the end of the day, maybe she didn't respond because she thought it was an unhealthy dialogue, and frankly I think it might have been. I'm not saying she doesn't need to hear some of these truths. Perhaps she does.

I understand that she's done a lot that you've felt was hurtful, but in order to get to a better place here it might be necessary to admit that you have willingly participated in this to a certain extent. And there's nothing wrong with that. None of us have navigated these relationships perfectly.

In any case, I hope for the best for you and your ex. It sounds like a difficult situation.

I'm not blaming her for having sex with me. She's just a manipulator. She knows how I tick. She tells me things I want to hear, like how she's getting serious about getting better, so I'll be more inclined to see her. It just frustrates me to no end how often she goes back on her word. All talk, no walk. I also wouldn't say I was just as willingly as a participant as she ways. I first tried to talk my way out/change the subject via text while I was at school. When I later got home from class, she ended up calling me asking me if I was going to come over or not. I must have spent at least 30 minutes mulling it over. She even said on the phone to me that we didn't have to have sex if I didn't want to (she would've tried regardless). Even after the game ended, and she shifted all of her attention towards me, I tried to disarm the situation by asking if we could watch a movie while she touched me. I honestly wasn't feeling it. I felt pretty uncomfortable.

[paperlung]

Paperlung

I do not know what you want or expect here.

You are continually engaging with a very sick dysfunctional person who does nothing healthy for themselves. This person is in a continual downward spiral and you keep jumping in for a ride down to the bottom.

Good luck with that.

Hope you get healthy enough to move on with you life and at least save you.

All I want is to see her follow through with what she said to me.

"I became very aware that I would not sustain a healthy functioning relationship like this, a job, or living alone. I had thoughts of moving out of my dad's place because I hate living here but I needed to think in the bigger grand scheme of things in my life. I am incapable of taking care of myself right now and the last thing I need to do is put myself in a position where I've been for the last two years. The last months in X (where she was before she moved back home) really changed me. And I apologize for acting like everything was fine when I spoke with you about it all before."

I guess that's too much to expect.

[paperlung]

Paper lung.

I get the sense you are really hurting. For the longest time and even now still 14 months out a part of me just belongs to my ex.  I accept that now but, in my interactions with my ex I was hoping it would work out even though all the evidence that she was not making any steps to confront herself and grow.  This upset me because I wanted this to work out for "us." It made

Me feel helpless to help the person I love more than anything in this damn world see.  To see herself the way I see her.  I was in too deep at that point and was drowning.  I needed to catch myself.  It's taken time and it's been more painful than anything I've ever experienced.  She's going to be who she is not who you would like her to be for the relationship you would like to have with her to work.  If you can accept that maybe one day she can be a booty call and a buddy.  Accept what is.  Stop fighting it surrender and accept defeat. 

I'm actually more frustrated and disappointed than anything else right now. If she moves out as she is right now, that's the final straw for me. I was willing to be there for her if she stuck around.

[Blimblam]

Paper lung,

I think a part of you knows you are setting up scenerios for her to fail you.  What is it about this drama that you find so attractive?  

For me I think at a certain point it was to know it was she that failed and not me and wanting her on some level to recognize that because if she recognized that their meant their was hope.

[paperlung]

It is good that you have invested time in learning about her disorder. I get the impression that you do care about her well-being. However, if she is truly suffering from BPD, it is unlikely that you will fix her. She has to want to be fixed, commit to getting fixed, and seek help from a qualified therapist who has had success in working with BPD.

Here's the thing. When we were together back in 2012, she fit the mold completely, like met ever BPD criteria. There is no doubt in my mind that if she saw a psych around the time we dated she would have been diagnosed with it. Actually, she was sort of "possibly" diagnosed by doctor after we broke up. She even called my house and told my mom she was BPD and just wanted to let me know that I was right all along in my assumption. Interestingly enough, her older sister was recently diagnosed with BPD. I gave up on trying to fix her a long time ago after she left me. I'm just a spectator at this point, but one that wants to see her get better more than anyone else in her life.

From what you have said about her, it does not sound to me like she is at a point where she wants to be fixed. Although it does sound like she has some awareness of her issues, she seems to shift from considering it as a possibility to just avoiding or denying it. Denial and avoidance are huge problems therapists deal with when working with people with BPD.

What's with that awareness and clarity, though? It's such a short-lasting phenomenon and then it's straight back to the avoidance and denial. She said herself that it's easy to lose it when she's depressed. And she's depressed about living at home with her dad at the moment.

As for her cold responses, you were and have been expressing your pain, frustration, and concern for her, and she responded with '' and 'but you're tired of caring.' My thought is that she is immature in dealing with feelings in relationships and doesn't know how to receive love from you ( or show you love and intimacy or even acknowledge your needs in the relationship).  Instead of dealing with what you are saying and engaging in a compassionate adult conversation with you about it, she sent an immature text letting you know that she knows that you are still attached. An adult capable and interested in a committed, loving relationship doesn't do such things when someone is reaching out as you were.

You're spot on here about everything, Mike. I've always felt that she could never comprehend or appreciate just how deep my love for her is/was. Back in October, before she moved back here, she was seeing this guy she met off Tinder. He turned out to be a real ass who abused my ex both verbally and physically, and was into some really messed up things like incest. He also cheated on her. She told me she felt that was the kind of relationship she deserved; to be treated badly.

Talking with you about POF and boyfriends seems to have been a test your boundaries, at the very least, and possibly to push you away. Even her desperate 'have sex with me now' business, seems to have been disrespectful of your boundaries. You said 'no' and wanted to talk, but she continued to behave like a child, uninterested in adult interaction and true intimacy (as opposed to sex), as if she is like a child having a tantrum when not getting her way. Her reply to you leaving one time, because you were frustrated because of the lack of intimacy when trying to talk about things, was that she would have given you oral. Again, interested in her needs and not yours.

Test my boundaries, you say? Like, in what way? To see if I'd get jealous or something? I honestly enjoy the adult interaction more so than the sex. I liked talking to her about things unrelated to her negative past experiences.

You mentioned her behaving like a child. Well, in my cliffs I mentioned how she sent my a long rage text. You can see the thread about it here and what she wrote exactly.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240742.0

My bet is that real intimacy scares her, probably because love and intimacy are associated with pain and fear, so she engages in pseudo-intimate contact, which primarily seems to be sex, and pushes people like you away when she starts feeling close.

At this point, she seems to engage in push-pull behavior with you, and the pulling seems to come when she is bored.

However, I don't think that my analysis is news to you. Sex to have sex is one thing (but be safe in terms of STDs and potential false accusations, which happens with BPD), but don't confuse sex with intimacy and love.

She never experienced any love as a child. Who she is now is all because of her crappy parents who never should've had kids.

[Recooperating]

By the way, I also want to say that I think some of the comments made in reference to the ex-girlfriend in paperlung's original post perhaps were too harsh. I've seen the word "skank" thrown around on several occasions, and in general this woman has been attacked for her sexual decision-making, and I'm not sure those attacks are warranted.

I think acknowledging the unhealthy nature of some of these interactions is fine, but I don't think anyone needs to be called a skank, and in general I would just hate to see this devolve into slut-shaming.

Mrwigand,

Thank you for mentioning that. I should not have used that word and you are right. I apologize if it offended any one. By no means did I want to participate in slut-shaming. I will rephrase this as I was surprised to read she has these standards and morals, pursuing Paperlung and being intimate with other men at the same time. It is something I wouldnt want or do in a rs. Like I said in my post, I am not here to judge. If this is something that is exceptable for Paperlung and he's ok with that, then that is a very legitimate choice. My assumption was that this wasnt what Paperlung wanted nor appreciated, but that is indeed an assumption.

Again, I am sorry if my namecalling was offensive. That was not my intention. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Infared]

Paperlung

I do not know what you want or expect here.

You are continually engaging with a very sick dysfunctional person who does nothing healthy for themselves. This person is in a continual downward spiral and you keep jumping in for a ride down to the bottom.

Good luck with that.

Hope you get healthy enough to move on with you life and at least save you.

All I want is to see her follow through with what she said to me.

"I became very aware that I would not sustain a healthy functioning relationship like this, a job, or living alone. I had thoughts of moving out of my dad's place because I hate living here but I needed to think in the bigger grand scheme of things in my life. I am incapable of taking care of myself right now and the last thing I need to do is put myself in a position where I've been for the last two years. The last months in X (where she was before she moved back home) really changed me. And I apologize for acting like everything was fine when I spoke with you about it all before."

I guess that's too much to expect.

To be kind to me (and sane), I had to disregard all words that were spoken or written from my ex. They were either outright lies or extreme childish or fantasy thinking.

I had to learn (with the counseling of my T), to acutely focus on her actions only... .because therein lies the truth, as godawful painful as that might be.

Her words, I came to find meant/mean nothing. Nothing at all. She is not like me. 

[paperlung]

Paperlung

I do not know what you want or expect here.

You are continually engaging with a very sick dysfunctional person who does nothing healthy for themselves. This person is in a continual downward spiral and you keep jumping in for a ride down to the bottom.

Good luck with that.

Hope you get healthy enough to move on with you life and at least save you.

All I want is to see her follow through with what she said to me.

"I became very aware that I would not sustain a healthy functioning relationship like this, a job, or living alone. I had thoughts of moving out of my dad's place because I hate living here but I needed to think in the bigger grand scheme of things in my life. I am incapable of taking care of myself right now and the last thing I need to do is put myself in a position where I've been for the last two years. The last months in X (where she was before she moved back home) really changed me. And I apologize for acting like everything was fine when I spoke with you about it all before."

I guess that's too much to expect.

To be kind to me (and sane), I had to disregard all words that were spoken or written from my ex. They were either outright lies or extreme childish or fantasy thinking.

I had to learn (with the counseling of my T), to acutely focus on her actions only... .because therein lies the truth, as godawful painful as that might be.

Her words, I came to find meant/mean nothing. Nothing at all. She is not like me. 

I'm going to have to find a way to start doing the same. Gotta quit hoping and believing her words because they all just amount to nothing in the end. I've been left feeling disappointed so many times now.

[paperlung]

Paper lung,

I think a part of you knows you are setting up scenerios for her to fail you.  What is it about this drama that you find so attractive?  

For me I think at a certain point it was to know it was she that failed and not me and wanting her on some level to recognize that because if she recognized that their meant their was hope.

I'm not the one setting up these wishful scenarios, though. She is. I'm the one who is left feeling disappointed when she fails. And I don't want the drama. I just want her to act like an adult for a change and get it together already. How many life negative experiences does one possibly need to see the light? Holy hell.

[Blimblam]

"I just want her to act like an adult for a change and get it together already."

Explore this.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108384.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=229500.0

[Infared]

"I just want her to act like an adult for a change and get it together already."

Explore this.

Good luck with that! 

[Blimblam]

ThAt last post of yours paper lung.   I know that feeling.  And it's in that somewhere that the answers are.  That dynamic for me was a repeat of earlier life traumas for me and the pwBPD.  Analyzing it using the tools I gave you in my last post can help to make it out.  But the trauma is held somewhere in the body and some part wants it to be resolved by repeating the conflict that caused the original truama but now with new people as the stand ins for the parts in the play.  It's a puzzle and it is a painful one but when you are ready to take a hard look at yourself this thread is a good place to start. I believe in you!

Some powerfull tools to help my unlock the traumas within my self were doing kareoke to the songs 3 libras" and "sleeping beauty" by a perfect circle.  Also the song 46 and 2 by tool.  The music and singing to it and moving to it can trigger the emotional responses and memories of the truama, it did for me.  Also exploring the psychological concepts the song 46 and 2 alludes to in the lyrics. 

[paperlung]

I think I understand now why she was being so cold to me yesterday with the "Lol" and "Nope" responses. It's because she's been staying at Mr. Random POF guy's place the last couple of days and was probably too busy or didn't care enough to have a conversation with me.

Just... .what the heck. Starts texting the guy Friday. Hangs out with him Saturday. Now is staying at his place the last couple of days. What the heck is she doing?