I'm starting to move on

[Grey Kitty]

I've shared a lot about my marriage on the staying board. My last post was this one: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270957.0;all

It ended with a hopeful note. The following marriage counseling appointment did not end up on a hopeful note. As we were leaving, she said "I want to want to be in a relationship with you." That was a really good summary. The T didn't assign us any homework, nor did he suggest we make a next appointment at any specific time.

I called her a few hours later, mainly to ask about the apparent contradiction there. We had an hour-long conversation. Her internal conflict did become clearer. I'm starting to accept where she is. I'm about to send this to her in an email:

Subject: Important realizations

Wife,

I felt like I was getting a mixed message from you: That you love me and want me as a friend, but you don’t want to be a lover and a wife.

I now see that these two things aren’t in conflict.

Right now, I need to grieve the loss of a wife and a lover and I cannot be your friend while I do this.

With love,

Grey

OK, I lied to myself. I'm not about to send the email. I'm going to step back, get about my day and chew on it a bit more before I send the email.

[sweetheart]

Hello GK,

I was surprised to find you here, don't know why I just was. Anyway aside from that I wonder whether after all this time you could say those words to her, not text.

I'm sure my response will be redundant once you have done your usual thinking, but just in case... .some food for thought. I would really hate to receive those words by text, it would really hurt my heart.

[Reforming]

Hi Grey Kitty,

It sound like you've been through hell and back and after reading your previous post I think you've been getting a lot good advice from other posters. I'm not sure what I can add, but this was my experience.

I went through something very similar, with my ex. The sex stopped and never really started again. We talked about it and I tried everything I could to find a way through.

She told me that she loved me, that she wanted to be with me and that she would anything to sort it out. She wanted to go therapy etc, but I could never really get her to try and work it through with me.

There were various factors at play. She has a history of bad CSA, and our relationship was punctuated by bad episodes of depression.

I felt she deserved compassion and understanding and we were very close in most other ways, but whenever we tried to have sex she would freeze or panic. I read and researched to try and find an answer and I became convinced that the CSA was the cause.

I went to therapy, but she wouldn't go on her own or with me. She wanted to get married, but I told her that though I loved her I couldn't get married unless we sorted this out.  

Years went by and nothing changed except that I ended up feeling more and more miserable.

Finally I reached a point where my self esteem was so low that I ended up badly depressed myself.

I went into a tailspin for a year, stalled professionally until eventually I pulled myself out. She stuck with me through this, but though I tried to explain what was going in my head and how hurt I felt by our lack of sexual intimacy she still wouldn't get help.

A year later, while she was in the throws of particularly bad bout of depression she finally agreed to go to therapy.

She tried to make me responsible for finding her a therapist. By this stage I'd become self aware enough to question my urge to rescue. I felt that if she was really wanted to commit to therapy she needed to choose a therapist for herself. Otherwise she would just blaming me.

She began therapy and for the first time in years I felt hope. I had no illusions about how difficult it might be and I was aware the mightn't survive. I done enough research to know that revisiting the trauma of CSA is hellish for victim so I knew it would be very tough for her. I tried my best to be supportive and understanding and when we ended up sleeping in separate beds I understood.

But she got more erratic and though she was one meds she frequently stayed out drinking until the early hours of the morning and didn't come home on a couple of occasion. I tried to talk to her and tell her that I was very concerned but I felt I couldn't push her too hard because of what she was going through.

A few months later I discovered that she'd been having an affair with a married work colleague - that she'd been bringing him home whenever I was away. She even brought him home once when I was there. He lived in another city and apparently he needed somewhere to stay

It might sound very naive but I was utterly shocked and devastated and then  furious at what she had done. When I confronted her about why she done it she said that she felt lonely. In retrospect it was like talking to small child who has stolen some sweets because they felt hungry.

Despite everything I still loved her and I decided that was worth giving it one last try in couples counselling. She agreed though she never instigated the idea.

It started well but gradually it became clear that she wasn't really committing to the therapy.  After a few months the therapist told us we reached a point where we need to decide what we were going to do.

My ex seemed to be incapable of moving either forward or ending things.

We had a two week break from couple counselling and I went away and talked things over with a few good friends and did a lot of soul searching.

I still loved her but I realised then that there was no way forward unless we were both prepared to do the work. It was clear that she wasn't. Actions speak louder than words

So though it broke my heart at our next session I ended our relationship and told her and the therapist how much her behaviour had hurt me.

I am still sad that our counselling didn't work out, but ending the relationship and telling  her how I felt in front a witness gave me kind of closure.  

My ex was utterly shocked and devastated and refused to leave. It took another year to get her out of my life and two more for me to feel even partially healed. It would have been even more traumatic and protracted if we remained in contact. I never had any allusions about being friends with my ex. She's lousy at maintain friendship and even if she was't if I a friend treated me that she did they wouldn't be my friend.

I'd never suggest that detaching and healing are easy, but they won't start until you turn around and walk away.

Good luck

Reforming

[Grey Kitty]

Reforming, thank you for sharing your story. I hear the echos from mine, as well as differences.

One thing is that we are already living apart, so getting her out is just a matter of giving her back a few things of hers on my boat. That won't take a year. Who knows how long divorce will take, or how much of a hurry either of us will be in.

I did send the email, ending it with the statement about grieving the loss of a wife and a lover... .not saying that I cannot be her friend. I got a reply:

Thank you for stating that so clearly, Grey. I wish I could have said it so succinctly.

love,

Wife

I said somewhere that I had a sliver of hope left. I'm losing that. Perhaps we will be able to be close friends some months or years later.

I've already done a lot of grieving the things I thought my marriage was over the last four months. I'm sure I've got more to do.

[vortex of confusion]

I did send the email, ending it with the statement about grieving the loss of a wife and a lover... .not saying that I cannot be her friend.

I've already done a lot of grieving the things I thought my marriage was over the last four months. I'm sure I've got more to do.

 

[HappyNihilist]

I just wanted to give you hugs, Grey.     

[Reforming]

Reforming, thank you for sharing your story. I hear the echos from mine, as well as differences.

One thing is that we are already living apart, so getting her out is just a matter of giving her back a few things of hers on my boat. That won't take a year. Who knows how long divorce will take, or how much of a hurry either of us will be in.

I did send the email, ending it with the statement about grieving the loss of a wife and a lover... .not saying that I cannot be her friend. I got a reply:

Thank you for stating that so clearly, Grey. I wish I could have said it so succinctly.

love,

Wife

I said somewhere that I had a sliver of hope left. I'm losing that. Perhaps we will be able to be close friends some months or years later.

I've already done a lot of grieving the things I thought my marriage was over the last four months. I'm sure I've got more to do.

Apologies for the length of my last post. It's hard to compress 15 years into a few paragraphs

I think even in healthy relationships endings are rarely clean and quick. I think I too was grieving my relationship for a long time before it finished. Letting go can be very hard.

Just my opinion but I think it's also very hard to be close friends with an ex, especially if you are still emotionally involved. And when you're detached, the urge to be friends may no longer be strong.

I tried so often to talk to my ex and then I sent her emails and texts. I believed that somehow if I found the perfect words she would understand me and see the truth. Now I think differently

6) Clinging to the words that were said

We often cling to the positive words and promises that were voiced and ignore or minimalize the negative actions. “But she said she would love me forever” Many wonderful and expressive things may have been said during the course of the relationship, but people suffering with BPD traits are dreamers, they can be fickle, and they over-express emotions like young children – often with little thought for long term implications. You must let go of the words. It may break your heart to do so. But the fact is, the actions - all of them - are the truth.

7) Belief that if you say it louder you will be heard

We often feel that if we explain our point better, put it in writing, say it louder, or find the right words ... .we will be heard. People with BPD hear and read just fine. Everything that we have said has been physically heard. The issue is more about listening and engaging. When the relationship breaks down and emotions are flared, the ability to listen and engage diminishes greatly on all sides. And if we try to compensate by being more insistent it often just drives the interaction further into unhealthy territory. We may be seen as aggressive. We may be seen as weak and clingy. We may be seen as having poor boundaries and inviting selfish treatment. We may be offering ourselves up for punishment.said. It may be denial, it may be the inability to get past what they feel and want to say, or it may even be payback. This is one of the most difficult aspects of breaking up - there is no closure.

My ex floated the idea of being friends, of helping each other through the breakup, but her felt her motives were very selfish. She wanted to have my support, but would't have been willing to reciprocate.

Lots of posters talk about the importance of NC and in my experience they are right. You need to be somewhere safe and tranquil, you need distance to heal and rebalance yourself, to rediscover who you are.

I'm sorry that things haven't worked out the way you hoped, but I really believe that you have the power to makes things better

Reforming

[eyvindr]

Grey Cat --

I'm sorry, man. Sucks all the way around, and not at all for lack of you trying your damnedest.

I think Reforming is right. I don't have anything to add. Lots of echoes here with my story, too. Except I didn't marry her. Had I done that, I'm certain (yes -- certain) that, maybe in a year, maybe in 5 years -- or 5 months -- I'd be in the same boat as you, my friend.

No pun intended. But, hell -- I'll take it. Hang in there. If you happen to travel up this way, let me know. My offer stands. Be well.

[Grey Kitty]

ARGH!   

After that exchange, I got a phone call from my wife. Two things of note from it... .

First, it was a very dejected almost tearful call on her part... .ultimately processing our marriage at me, and looking for support there... .and I got sucked in, bad. Both the co-captains (in real life) of Team Grey Kitty were worried about me and pissed at her for this when I was talking/chatting with them after.

I was twice encouraged not to let this sort of conversation happen again, and to allow myself some time to live my life without turning it upside down chasing my wife. To remind myself of this, I made a new ringtone for my wife and set it on my phone... .the start of an old Rod Stewart song.  “If I listen long enough to you... .I’ll find a way to believe that its all true... .” (And I noticed how wonderfully codependent many songs on that album are! )

Both my supporters LOVED my choice of ringtone  I do think I need the reminder when she calls me. And to let it go to voicemail. It is much safer for me to text/email her.

The other thing was the specific thing she 'offered' or 'shared' with me: That she is on anti-depressants which have the side effect of messing with her sex drive, and that she didn't want to end our marriage while on them, and was thinking of phasing herself off them.

I did point out two things to her... .first, that she could pick other ways to work on the lack of attraction to me/interest in sex with me in addition... .like working with a therapist on it. And second... .it is normal for people to need to be ON antidepressants while divorcing/breaking up, rather than to get OFF them at that time. (I didn't say this to her... .but I think this is a perfect plan for her to unconsciously start the 'waif attack' one of my Team GK members predicted would happen when I left her... .crashing and burning, and reeling me in to rescue her!)



This morning I drafted an email to her... .I needed to write it. I haven't even tried to decide if I'm going to send it or any form of it yet.

Subject: Too Little.

Wife,

When you were talking to me last night, you asked me if it was too late. I said something like not quite yet; I don’t quite remember. Now I’ve got a better answer for you.

It is too little.

I want a marriage where you show real commitment as an intimate partnership with me. (And I do the same.)

Your ‘offer’ was “I don’t think I’m in a good condition to say that I’m done being a lover to you.”

Looking at it in the cold morning light, it feels like a ___ing crumb. There isn’t even a commitment to DO anything in it.

You said you don’t even know what commitment to our marriage means.  If you figure it out, make me a real offer.

Grey

[Crumbling]

I'm going to miss you on the staying board, GK. 

All I can say is stay focused on you, and your needs.  You must stay vigilant not to get into too much push/pull.  From what I've learned, you give in an inch, they take a mile, right?  I can see this last email leading you into that situation.

That being said, sometimes it takes a train wreck to get a pwBPD to stand up and really listen to the other person. 

What could she offer to do that would change your mind?  Do you know?  What could she suggest that would stop the breaking down and get you going on building the r/s?  Have a clear picture of this, so that you stay prepared and can keep things on track when need be... .if you are willing to play this game a little longer.  You have been in this game for a while, no?

 

All my best to you,

Crumbsy

[Grey Kitty]

I've already told her things she could offer, many times. First on the list is cutting contact with the guy she cheated with permanently. She has cut contact, but currently insists that she is still friends with him, and expects to see him and greet him like a friend when she's at an event this summer that I'd expect him to be at.  She says that due to old injuries of hers, she cannot let anybody 'force' her to cut a friend loose or tell her who she can have as a friend. She generally tries to turn this around say that she doesn't want the kind of guy who would do this to her.

I guess I'm that kind of guy and she doesn't want me.

She's also admitted that she's flirting outrageously with a different guy... .and that this isn't helping her work on our marriage. I did say a couple things to point this out once or twice, but I'm not even asking for anything of the sort there anymore.

If she chose to dial that back, that would be a start.

Honestly, I know that my standards are way higher than that... .and I'm hardly able to ask that much from her, knowing she isn't likely to offer it to me.

I'm looking for a real commitment to support me and work on our marriage. Which is hard to figure out since living together in the next few months is a bad idea. Maybe a commitment to therapeutic separation? Dunno. Still... .whatever it looks like, she seems to have no clue, and no interest.

She's got to work on her own enmeshment tendencies... .she can stay involved with me and try to work through the existing STRONG enmeshment. She can spend some time alone and work on it. Or she can chase after other guys, and distract her from the issue, likely by getting enmeshed with them. Sigh. Whichever path she takes, I cannot walk one step of it for her.

Besides, I'm too busy trying to dig down to the roots of that in myself!

I'm going to miss you on the staying board, GK.

I an trying to build my offline life up, and I hope it gets in the way of my online life I'm not posting my story anymore on Staying, but I expect to check in there, even if it becomes less often. I'll see you there still

[KateCat]

"Reason to Believe." The words to that song have been running through my head each time I've seen your screen name this past week. 

[vortex of confusion]

Don't let yourself get sucked into her BS. Sounds like real life Team Grey Kitty knows what is going on. Keep talking to them.

Sounds like you might need to go a bit azzhole on her. I don't know what else to call it but I know that is probably how it will be perceived. My husband did something nice and then expected me to go back to having everything the way it was. I didn't fall for it. Before he actually started doing things that were healthy, he pulled that crying, feel sorry for me stuff. Stay strong. Refuse to talk to her on the phone or in person. Don't get sucked in!

In my experience, I have told my husband what I want and need a whole bunch of times. Now, when he asks me that, I simply tell him, "I have told you repeatedly. I am not going to repeat myself again." It sounds like you have given your wife all of the information you need to give her. Now it is up to her to do whatever she wants with that information.

The truth is that he can do all sorts of things t appease me but that is not going to equal being checked in to the marriage or being committed to the marriage. For me, those things are difficult to quantify/qualify as they are more, "I'll know it when I see and I haven't seen it yet."

[eyvindr]

GK --

I feel like I'm crashing Team Grey Kitty.

Riddle: How many chances are enough chances?

That's the nagging question that, more than any other, I've found myself wrestling with, over and over.

I've found that, like much in life, the answer is simple. At some point, all hopes, dreams, memories and ideals aside, enough is enough.

The challenge is that it's tough to get to simple. Kind of like a steep, rocky, overgrown path, with a lot of mud and scree before you get to the top -- where the view is terrific, visibility is unlimited and there are no more high and variable winds.

Life's short, man. It's not getting any longer. Take care of yourself.

[Crumbling]

Honestly, I know that my standards are way higher than that... .and I'm hardly able to ask that much from her, knowing she isn't likely to offer it to me.

This statement speaks volumes, ya know.  You lowered your standards in hopes that her response would be acceptable, or at least livable for you... .and she still can not/will not play by the rules/boundaries you've set out, for you.  This is her loss, and your window of opportunity for personal growth.

Good job on 'getting a real life'    but I'm also glad to know you'll still be here. 

I'm trying to un-mesh with my BPDh too, but it's a real trigger for him.  I think he feels I'm pulling away to leave him, so I'm taking things slow, lots of validation... .one step at a time.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm trying to un-mesh with my BPDh too, but it's a real trigger for him.  I think he feels I'm pulling away to leave him, so I'm taking things slow, lots of validation... .one step at a time.

And that is how it will be the whole way through de-enmeshing. There is no getting around that it is a difficult and uncomfortable process to do. For you, and for him. (And you know his playbook for dealing with uncomfortable feelings!)

Keep working on it though--it will make your life better. It will even improve things for your H if he lets himself be dragged along kicking and screaming about it. And if he doesn't, it won't make him worse.

My moving a step away ... .acknowledging that I am believing her actions (to step away from our marriage) only took a few hours to prompt a reactive attempt to drag me back in. And I was vulnerable to it. At least initially. That's why I'm limiting phone contact with her.

[Crumbling]

But she just sucked you in with an email exchange... .lesson learned?

I have plans to stay strong on the decisions I make, and hoping that will help keep things moving.   

[Crumbling]

... .forward. 

moving forward.

[Grey Kitty]

But she just sucked you in with an email exchange... .

Nope. I sent her one email, and got a simple clear reply. It was stuff that needed to be said. In fact I sent it as an email because I didn't want to start a long processing conversation.

The second 'draft' email is just for my internal clarity--kinda like rehearsing a conversation I might or might not have. I've got no current intention to send it. I wrote it in my diary, not my email program.

It was her phone call that sucked me in. And yes, lesson learned there!

[Crumbling]

Super!  I'm glad to hear you didn't send it.  Good work.   

[Grey Kitty]

Lessons learned indeed. Got another email. She has an event one evening in the town I'm in,an hour South of where she's staying, and just found an event the next day in a third town a little farther South. She asked if she could stay on the boat with me overnight.

The email came in last night just as I was about to go to sleep, so I ignored it... .and this morning came up with the perfect reply. (Yes, it took some work on my part)

I don't feel comfortable spending an evening and night with you like this.

Less than an hour later my phone rang. I let her go to voicemail. ("If I listen long enough to you... ." No surprise there!

The voicemail was saying that she wanted to clarify that she didn't want to sleep with me, she wanted to sleep on the couch. And please call, she wanted to talk to me.

As I settle into it and get about my day, I plan to tell her that I understood exactly what she was asking for, and that is why I didn't feel comfortable with it. By text or email, not phone. I probably won't address the request to talk.

... .this still very uncomfortable for me--I know it is the right thing to do, but the other option... .the one I used to do... .those pathways are still deep grooves in my heart and my head. I mentioned this in livednlearned's topic once. She said something great in response:

Isn't that the truth. Uncomfortable was my middle name there for a while.

[Crumbling]

   

three thumbs up!

[Crumbling]

You're going to email her?

never mind... .I'm rush reading... .sorry.

[eyvindr]

You're doing great, Grey! Stick with it.

No overnights, no stays of convenience, nothing to talk about, no need to discuss anything -- except the de-enmeshment, when the time is right.

She's perfectly capable of making hotel reservations wherever she needs them.

[Grey Kitty]

Valentine's Day is tomorrow. I don't plan to do anything, and I'll be thinking about that. I'm sure my wife will be thinking about it too. I have no idea what she's going to do.

Lots of history. My wife has always been very romantic, and was always great at sweet little gestures for occasions like this. I totally blew her away making a cake for her on the first birthday she had while we were together and struggling to surprise her with it. Within a decade, holidays became a minefield for me; I'm not sure whether I really was good or bad at doing things for her on them... .but I know she became very good at rejecting whatever I did. A few years back, she broke through that, and realized that she was rejecting my efforts because she felt unworthy, and was able to accept romantic gifts from me. It was really sweet, even though I was still a little traumatized by the preceding decade.

I can't do anything for her tomorrow--I'm trying to move away from a marriage where I don't get what I want in a marriage from her.

I know that she would be delighted to share little fun romantic things with me tomorrow--she can do the friendship thing with me, and wants to continue it.

I'm still struggling with being vulnerable enough to tell her that I need to back away from the friendship so I can move on from the marriage.

She's still wanting to work on our marriage... .or at least not move on from it, or something... .but what she has offered me is so far short of what I need to be fulfilled in a marriage that there's not much hope there for me.

Any way I slice it, it isn't going to be a fun and comfortable day.

[eyvindr]

Excuse me sir -- but are you aware that this is a rumination-free room?

I feel ya, Grey.

But, it's just a day, in the end. Just another day. Everything else is stuff we ascribe to it. Any friends you can hang with? Take a drive?

[Grey Kitty]

Excuse me sir -- but are you aware that this is a rumination-free room?

That was more fretting than ruminating 

And I suspect part of it was being tuned in to and knowing my wife very well. A few hours later, I got a chat from her... .still trying to engage me. I'm feeling that I do owe her something more.

More of a statement of my intentions, than a statement of my reasons, and probably not a request to change anything.

I do feel like I've decided that being an ex-lover is a priority for me over being a friend--and they are in conflict--the friendly things make me want to be a lover again.

I'm not sure if today is the day to tell her something like that or not. Might depend on how much she reaches out.

I am going to be talking to Team Grey Kitty today. I'll need the support.

I'm also going to take a day mostly off of boat projects, and spend it taking care of myself. Strangely, that is looking like taking the time to clean up the boat, do dishes, do laundry, and probably cook myself a meal. I've been putting a lot of that off for a while, in efforts to direct what productive energy I have into boat projects.

And probably listen to a lot of music that makes me feel today. Like Keb' Mo' playing "You can love yourself"

I wish you all the best Valentine's Day you can create for yourself and those that you love!

[eyvindr]

Sounds like a plan, Grey.

[Grey Kitty]

Team Grey Kitty continues to amaze me. I am soo blessed!

I related this last comment to the captain of Team GK from last night's chat.

I reread your email about spending the night on the boat. You said you were "not comfortable," and I'm sure you chose your words carefully. What is the next step after this?

Her immediate response was "Wow." Followed by pointing out that my wife was giving me an open invitation to try to control her by telling her what to do. [Which I agreed with, then said ... .and then refusing to be controlled and not doing what I suggested... .]

I was amazed at how far she saw through that. I admitted that all I saw was the surface... .and what I saw on the surface was a mess that made me think "No, I'm not going to punch you, tar baby! " I may need help and support, but at least I know when I need it.

And impressed with her suggestion... .any open ended question like that can get the response "It is your choice."

[Grey Kitty]

I was puzzled for a moment at the first piano notes... .I'm still not used to the ringtone yet. This time I didn't silence it but listened to the whole thing "... .If I listen long enough to you... .I'll find a way to believe that its all true... ." while my wife called.

I didn't answer it. (Second time) This time she didn't leave a message. I continued about my day, and while washing dishes I had a cool realization.

I have all these things I want to say to my wife, like how it is more important for me to be an ex-lover right now than a friend to her, etc., etc. Lots of feelings about her and our marriage and some of the things we've shared together. Lots I keep WANTING to share with her.

And the last time I talked to her, I was somewhat vulnerable with her... .and ended up feeling kinda confused and crappy when it was all done.

What I realized was that I don't want to tell her these things. I want her to understand and to care about them, and that kind of outcome hasn't happened when I shared with her lately.

And I realized that she isn't showing much sign of that. I also realized that if she wanted to know why I was avoiding the sort of deep emotional connection that our friendship used to have, she could be vulnerable and ask ME about it. She could send me an email or a text saying what she wanted to talk about. She could reach out with an interest in re-connecting.

Maybe she will. Maybe she won't.  This is another way for me not to chase her. I'm right here, and she knows where to find me.