Kids/BPDmom therapist issues--Advise?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

As you may have read from my recent emails, SD10 has been under a lot of stress at her BPDmom's house.  I am her stepmom, DH is a good, engaged dad who is also really busy.  We have a two week on, two-week off schedule, at BPD mom's request--but we find it is only this length of time that allows the kids to relax from mom's and just be kids. 

Last time with BPDmom, SD10 had a really hard time. IMO, she needs to see a counselor, but there is a glitch.  I want to get advice from you all, but want to have you know some of the facts.  So here are some facts.  If you want to skip this part, the question is at the end. 

FACTS

SD10 got shingles one week into mom's last time, and has had lots of stress. We caught it at a mid-week overnight. This illness in kids is either a sign of immune issues or intense stress... .tests ruled out immune issues caused by disease, so it looks like it is stress.  She also came back to our place very upset, saying she really missed mommy, but upon further conversation, talking about how mommy got really mad at her and how guilty she feels, wishing she could be a better daughter and never "make" mommy mad.  She also talked a lot about custody stuff, making it sound like mom is wanting more custody again.  After talking about all her feelings, having me love and validate her, SD10 just sobbed and sobbed and said she did not want to have to choose, she wants to live with mommy and daddy and me and see us all every day so she does not have to miss her mommy. 

We know mom is having a hard time--reports from friends who say she is drinking a lot and acting crazy; friends parents reporting her home is a total disaster; kids came back with lice and SD10 with shingles (lice sounds bad, but is also part of school life); from mom loosing it at dad in front of the kids regularly and with no provocation.  This is very hard on SD10; SD14 is getting older and more independent and no longer sleeps with mom.  She idealized mom, but is becoming less enmeshed.

DH and I talked about what we could do to help.  First, loving SD10 and creating a low-stress environment,which we did and she spent most of the past 2 weeks totally happy and content with us.  All the signs of stress--the shingles, tight body, crying, etc., went away and she has been a really happy kid.  So resilient. 

Second, as to the illness, we talked more with a naturopath who suggested some things to help her out, as the Doctor could not suggest anything other than reducing stress. We made some improvements to her diet, and really worked at it for 2 weeks.  We also added some helpful supplements.

DH and I also decided she need to see her counselor.  This is fraught with complications.  Here is the the problem and my question.

THE QUESTION

SD10 has seen a very good T for about 5 years, on and off; she was mom's suggestion, and well respected locally.  When T first started seeing the girls, there was an incident that made T suspect BPD, and so T told DH she would only be willing to see the girls if he was willing to get a court order if mom tried to stop the kids from seeing her.  This ended up happening due to some later custody litigation, but not because of DH requesting it--just a mutual agreement.  Thus, there is a court order agreeing that this T is the kids' T.  The T avoided testifying in court so she could maintain this relationship with the girls.  Though it took about 2 years, the T totally understands that the kids mom has BPD (or something with identical symptoms and dynamics, as she is not diagnosing mom), and it tends to take at least a year before the T actually understands how unbalanced and destructive mom is. 

But, BPD mom at some point brought both girls to see T, and in front of the kids told the T she is a terrible  therapist, does not care about the kids, and the kids do not needs someone who is not family to see them. She was drunk, and yelled and cursed at T.  After this, SD14 (who is more enmeshed) refused to see T, and  SD10 also parroted some of mom's criticisms about T.  T said if SD14 did not want to see her, she would not force her, and SD14 and T had a great parting session.  SD10 ended up saying she still wanted to see T, and did a few times.  The things calmed, and we had a year of no real crisis other than BPD mom raging at us and SD14, but SD14 did feel like talking to us during this, so she was doing fine.  Now, there is a crisis again, and SD10 needs a T.

Mom's current line is that the kids do not need therapists, they can talk to her.  So getting someone new would be really hard right now, and then we would have to go through the couple of years waiting to have the T understand BPD mom... .

The T thought that it might be good to get a new T that BPD mom felt okay about, but I explained that it probably would not work to get a T, and that if she did, it would be a year before the T understands that the stress is not missing mommy (which is BPD mom and SD10's party line), but mom's rages and alienation, or SD10's guilt over responding to mom's alienation efforts when she feels like she loves us all, and her feelings of guilt over abandoning her alienated stance when with us. 

So SD10 saw the T, and had a great time, and said she wanted to go back. 

BPD mom then found out from DH that SD10 saw T, and threw a total fit.  I am really worried about her raging at SD10. 

So here is what DH and came up with.  If SD10 gets yelled at, she probably will not want to see the T next time.  If we try a new T, BPD mom will only like her and agree to have SD10 see her if she agrees with BPD mom, which would be a mess right now.  So we thought, what can we do? 

We came up with the idea of throwing out a total red herring issue to distract mom from this issue.  The issue is another hot button issue related to SD14, but that does not throw SD14 under the bus--basically, DH asking for more time with SD14 because she "needs her daddy," and got disproportionate time with mommy.  The hope is this will become a target for mom and she will forget all about the T issue... .which is actually pretty likely.

This makes me uneasy, as DH and I are both pretty straightforward people.  At first I suggested that he just write her about why SD10 needs a T--but soon, we both realized that if he made it an issue, she probably would dig in her heels and REALLY rage at SD10, because that is where she has the power. 

The issue is this.  SD10 needs a T, ideally one who gets mom, but knows how important mommy is to her right now, because mommy is not being as loving. Mom does not want a T like that.  Mom may go into custody battle mode, so it is critical for the kids to have emotional support, but also someone who is not going to just believe mom because she is mom.

The only idea we have had so far that we think might work is to create the red herring.  Mom is totally dysregulated right now, drinking a lot, not rational and probably will only be more against this T if DH continues to discuss it with her.  Ignoring it will not work, as she perseverates.  DH has the power to "make" SD10 go to therapy, but she will not want to if she feels she is betraying mommy.  The T will not be willing to see SD10 if SD10 refuses. 

So, long and short of it, what should we do?  Any advice?  What do you think of the red herring ?

[ennie]

As you may have read from my recent emails, SD10 has been under a lot of stress at her BPDmom's house.  I am her stepmom, DH is a good, engaged dad who is also really busy.  We have a two week on, two-week off schedule, at BPD mom's request--but we find it is only this length of time that allows the kids to relax from mom's and just be kids. 

Last time with BPDmom, SD10 had a really hard time. IMO, she needs to see a counselor, but there is a glitch.  I want to get advice from you all, but want to have you know some of the facts.  So here are some facts.  If you want to skip this part, the question is at the end. 

FACTS

SD10 got shingles one week into mom's last time, and has had lots of stress. We caught it at a mid-week overnight. This illness in kids is either a sign of immune issues or intense stress... .tests ruled out immune issues caused by disease, so it looks like it is stress.  She also came back to our place very upset, saying she really missed mommy, but upon further conversation, talking about how mommy got really mad at her and how guilty she feels, wishing she could be a better daughter and never "make" mommy mad.  She also talked a lot about custody stuff, making it sound like mom is wanting more custody again.  After talking about all her feelings, having me love and validate her, SD10 just sobbed and sobbed and said she did not want to have to choose, she wants to live with mommy and daddy and me and see us all every day so she does not have to miss her mommy. 

We know mom is having a hard time--reports from friends who say she is drinking a lot and acting crazy; friends parents reporting her home is a total disaster; kids came back with lice and SD10 with shingles (lice sounds bad, but is also part of school life); from mom loosing it at dad in front of the kids regularly and with no provocation.  This is very hard on SD10; SD14 is getting older and more independent and no longer sleeps with mom.  She idealized mom, but is becoming less enmeshed.

DH and I talked about what we could do to help.  First, loving SD10 and creating a low-stress environment,which we did and she spent most of the past 2 weeks totally happy and content with us.  All the signs of stress--the shingles, tight body, crying, etc., went away and she has been a really happy kid.  So resilient. 

Second, as to the illness, we talked more with a naturopath who suggested some things to help her out, as the Doctor could not suggest anything other than reducing stress. We made some improvements to her diet, and really worked at it for 2 weeks.  We also added some helpful supplements.

DH and I also decided she need to see her counselor.  This is fraught with complications.  Here is the the problem and my question.

THE QUESTION

SD10 has seen a very good T for about 5 years, on and off; she was mom's suggestion, and well respected locally.  When T first started seeing the girls, there was an incident that made T suspect BPD, and so T told DH she would only be willing to see the girls if he was willing to get a court order if mom tried to stop the kids from seeing her.  This ended up happening due to some later custody litigation, but not because of DH requesting it--just a mutual agreement.  Thus, there is a court order agreeing that this T is the kids' T.  The T avoided testifying in court so she could maintain this relationship with the girls.  Though it took about 2 years, the T totally understands that the kids mom has BPD (or something with identical symptoms and dynamics, as she is not diagnosing mom), and it tends to take at least a year before the T actually understands how unbalanced and destructive mom is. 

But, BPD mom at some point brought both girls to see T, and in front of the kids told the T she is a terrible  therapist, does not care about the kids, and the kids do not needs someone who is not family to see them. She was drunk, and yelled and cursed at T.  After this, SD14 (who is more enmeshed) refused to see T, and  SD10 also parroted some of mom's criticisms about T.  T said if SD14 did not want to see her, she would not force her, and SD14 and T had a great parting session.  SD10 ended up saying she still wanted to see T, and did a few times.  The things calmed, and we had a year of no real crisis other than BPD mom raging at us and SD14, but SD14 did feel like talking to us during this, so she was doing fine.  Now, there is a crisis again, and SD10 needs a T.

Mom's current line is that the kids do not need therapists, they can talk to her.  So getting someone new would be really hard right now, and then we would have to go through the couple of years waiting to have the T understand BPD mom... .

The T thought that it might be good to get a new T that BPD mom felt okay about, but I explained that it probably would not work to get a T, and that if she did, it would be a year before the T understands that the stress is not missing mommy (which is BPD mom and SD10's party line), but mom's rages and alienation, or SD10's guilt over responding to mom's alienation efforts when she feels like she loves us all, and her feelings of guilt over abandoning her alienated stance when with us. 

So SD10 saw the T, and had a great time, and said she wanted to go back. 

BPD mom then found out from DH that SD10 saw T, and threw a total fit.  I am really worried about her raging at SD10. 

So here is what DH and came up with.  If SD10 gets yelled at, she probably will not want to see the T next time.  If we try a new T, BPD mom will only like her and agree to have SD10 see her if she agrees with BPD mom, which would be a mess right now.  So we thought, what can we do? 

We came up with the idea of throwing out a total red herring issue to distract mom from this issue.  The issue is another hot button issue related to SD14, but that does not throw SD14 under the bus--basically, DH asking for more time with SD14 because she "needs her daddy," and got disproportionate time with mommy.  The hope is this will become a target for mom and she will forget all about the T issue... .which is actually pretty likely.

This makes me uneasy, as DH and I are both pretty straightforward people.  At first I suggested that he just write her about why SD10 needs a T--but soon, we both realized that if he made it an issue, she probably would dig in her heels and REALLY rage at SD10, because that is where she has the power. 

The issue is this.  SD10 needs a T, ideally one who gets mom, but knows how important mommy is to her right now, because mommy is not being as loving. Mom does not want a T like that.  Mom may go into custody battle mode, so it is critical for the kids to have emotional support, but also someone who is not going to just believe mom because she is mom.

The only idea we have had so far that we think might work is to create the red herring.  Mom is totally dysregulated right now, drinking a lot, not rational and probably will only be more against this T if DH continues to discuss it with her.  Ignoring it will not work, as she perseverates.  DH has the power to "make" SD10 go to therapy, but she will not want to if she feels she is betraying mommy.  The T will not be willing to see SD10 if SD10 refuses. 

So, long and short of it, what should we do?  Any advice?  What do you think of the red herring ?

[ennie]

I just want to add that the other great thing is that this time, I got to a place of peace with all of this.  I want to do all I can to support SD10, but I am also aware that this is between her and her mom.  I can do what I can to encourage DH to help get support for SD10; I can love her up.  But I cannot give SD10 advice that will enable her to overcome having a mom with BPD. DH cannot give BPD mom advice that will make her not rage at SD10.  It is just their relationship.  We tried to get more custody, and got 50/50.  SD10 loves her mommy.  BPD mom wants to be in her life.  That is what is.  The more I try to impact stuff outside my realm, the more risk I have of it backfiring.  It is not really clear where what is in my power and what is not begins and ends... .but I know for sure that loving SD10, giving her good food, and helping her to get support at our home is within my sphere, so that is where I want to put my time.  The rest is just not up to me.  Worrying only makes me less available to SD10. 

So I am letting go.  SD10 goes back to mommy's house today, and she will do what she does there.  My fear will not do anything but add stress.  No need for more fear and more stress--BPD mom seems to have ample doses of these ingredients--so my part of the recipe is more love and more faith. 

[Turkish]

It may be that "loving her up" may be all that you can do, ennie. Lots of changes are coming due to adolescence, nevermind BPDm.

The red herring may backfire on you. Do you think that their mom would give up time with D14 if it were put out there, or do you think it would trigger their mom?

[Rubies]

I don't see any reason why anyone would be compelled to tell a BPD they attend therapy, let alone ask permission.  Even for a 10 year old that should be a protected boundary.  Yes, the child needs her 3rd party safe person to teach her coping strategies.

BPD mom tries to interfere or block therapy, your DH can up front in her face point out parents who act out in ways to keep their kids from speaking privately to mandated reporters, especially parents with alcohol issues, appear to judges as parents with something to hide.  It looks very BAD Mommy on paper when custody arrangements need changing.

Personally, I think the red herring idea will create more drama and stress for the girls.  Keeping BPD mom spun out with a lie or half lie isn't exactly a good example to be setting.   Wouldn't that earn her sympathy from her kids?

If you're going to spin her out, use Truth.

[livednlearned]

I know my son got something out of therapy when he saw his first one from ages 9-12. But I also think my therapy was just as important to him. It's important for kids to have access to counselors, no question. And it would be ideal if SD10's mom could just get to that place where she lets her kids be themselves. But she can't. You do a lot for these kids, and if I remember correctly, have a background working with kids as a counselor or teacher?

That's going to go a long way. I've learned a lot from you on the boards when you describe how you interact with the girls, and it has to have an impact on them despite the emotional storm they're in with their mom. 

So that's all positive. You've got that.

Sometimes I have to put kid therapy in perspective. The issue of SD10 being stressed and needing someone is important, but it's equally possible that a counselor can only do the smallest amount, and SD10's stress won't really diminish because the real problem isn't going to go away, and 10 is pretty young to be tackling something as intense as a BPD parent.

It would break my heart if I could not get my son into a therapist, so I'm not minimizing how that feels. It truly sucks that our kids have to fight this hard to get help. But SD10 has you and her dad. If there's a good counselor at school, she will also have that. Plus teachers that are nurturing. It might be more important that she has you and your DH. Some parents can't look at their own stuff as closely as you do. You're pretty fearless.

My son's psychiatrist was lamenting that therapy is an hour a week, and with kids, it's just a drop in the bucket. He wishes there was more of a case worker approach with school counselors and doctors and parents. He had just shown me a video to try and describe this new therapy that has everyone excited in the field, and after we watched it, I commented on how I might be adding to S13's stress because of the way I interact with his anxiety. He had this huge look of relief on his face and said that if I can see that, and can tweak some of my responses, it could have a huge impact on how well S13 makes use of what he learns in T. Changing my behavior is going to really count for S13.

If seeing a therapist just opens SD10 up to more fire from her mom, that is going to negate the benefits. It's sad, but there are other positive things going on for her that are equal to if not more important.