To the Christians on these boards...

[jhkbuzz]

Or TEST our faith... .mine now, is being put to the test.

Yes... .

You said something earlier:

if this were one incident in my life, I would write it off as you suggest... .but it is not... .the suffering seems to be a recurring them in my life... .I am mad at God not just because he allows these things to happen, but more because I try to live as piously as I can and remain faithful when those around me have long given up.

It seems that you believe that suffering is aberrant... .it's not, you know. It's part of the human condition. If there's any proof that living a pious life does not exclude you from the experience of suffering, it should be Christ's example.

[jhkbuzz]

Tell God that you're mad. Tell Him you are angry with him for allowing this person in your life.

but i'm not.

Why He allowed it to happen to you, only He knows.

but i'm not sure he did. i have issues with what the full range of free will is, and i haven't worked them out.

Can you explain further?

[JRT]

Or TEST our faith... .mine now, is being put to the test.

Yes... .

You said something earlier:

if this were one incident in my life, I would write it off as you suggest... .but it is not... .the suffering seems to be a recurring them in my life... .I am mad at God not just because he allows these things to happen, but more because I try to live as piously as I can and remain faithful when those around me have long given up.

It seems that you believe that suffering is aberrant... .it's not, you know. It's part of the human condition. If there's any proof that living a pious life does not exclude you from the experience of suffering, it should be Christ's example.

This more academic but then; why bother? Doesn't seem to be anything beneficial to living as a Christian if suffering is perpetual. (though I don't believe that suffering IS perpetual)

[jhkbuzz]

Or TEST our faith... .mine now, is being put to the test.

Yes... .

You said something earlier:

if this were one incident in my life, I would write it off as you suggest... .but it is not... .the suffering seems to be a recurring them in my life... .I am mad at God not just because he allows these things to happen, but more because I try to live as piously as I can and remain faithful when those around me have long given up.

It seems that you believe that suffering is aberrant... .it's not, you know. It's part of the human condition. If there's any proof that living a pious life does not exclude you from the experience of suffering, it should be Christ's example.

This more academic but then; why bother? Doesn't seem to be anything beneficial to living as a Christian if suffering is perpetual. (though I don't believe that suffering IS perpetual)

If you have become a Christian in order to escape suffering you will be sorely disappointed... .as you appear to be.

You could throw it all to the wind and simply become a hedonist... .but you won't escape suffering in that scenario either.

For me, the "benefit" of being a Christian was the sense peace I found in my r/s with God.  It is no coincidence that, as I drifted away from God and into my relationship with a BPDgf (long story, perhaps a future post) that I lost my peace as well.

"“The prayer of faith is not a demand that we place on God. It is not a presumption of a granted request. The authentic prayer of faith is one that models Jesus' prayer. It is always uttered in a spirit of subordination. In all our prayers, we must let God be God. No one tells the Father what to do, not even the Son. Prayers are always to be requests made in humility and submission to the Father's will.”

― R.C. Sproul, Surprised by Suffering"

[jhkbuzz]

“Let me implore the reader to try to believe, if only for a moment, that God, who made these deserving people, may really be right when He thinks that their modest prosperity and the happiness of their children are not enough to make them blessed: that all this must fall from them in the end, and if they have not learned to know Him they will be wretched. And therefore He troubles them, warning them in advance of an insufficiency that one day they will have to discover. The life to themselves and their families stands between them and the recognition of their need; He makes that life less sweet to them.

If God were proud He would hardly have us on such terms: but He is not proud, He stoops to conquer, He will have us even though we have shown that we prefer everything else to Him, and come to Him because there is 'nothing better' now to be had.”

― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

:'(

[JRT]

Remember: it was academic. I have remained a Christian for various other reasons (though this situation is greatly testing my faith).

But even if one were to become a hedon and still were to suffer, there is no promise or illusion that there will not be suffering - this is the key. Christianity alludes to an end to suffering if not all out promises it explicitly by living a Christlike life. In the absence of that promise, there doesn't seem to be a point does there? Its like running on a treadmill and never arriving at the desired destination.

[Hazelrah]

Christianity alludes to an end to suffering if not all out promises it explicitly by living a Christlike life. In the absence of that promise, there doesn't seem to be a point does there?

JRT,

I’m not a Christian, and I'm probably taking the thread off track, but I’m going to weigh in regarding your quote above.

 

Shouldn’t living the good and moral life (Christian or otherwise) be lived for its inherent value?  At least that would be the point for me.  Last week you were telling us your decision to do the right thing in regards to returning your ex’s belongings was (to paraphrase) motivated by the fact that you wanted to be able to sleep at night, knowing you were living by a certain code of moral principles.  Were there other motives at play besides this?

[jhkbuzz]

Remember: it was academic. I have remained a Christian for various other reasons (though this situation is greatly testing my faith).

But even if one were to become a hedon and still were to suffer, there is no promise or illusion that there will not be suffering - this is the key. Christianity alludes to an end to suffering if not all out promises it explicitly by living a Christlike life. In the absence of that promise, there doesn't seem to be a point does there? Its like running on a treadmill and never arriving at the desired destination.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that "Christianity alludes to an end to suffering if not all-out promises it explicitly by living a Christlike life." I've never been under that impression.  Christ, Paul... .both suffered tremendously. There is a "gospel of prosperity" that some pastors preach, but I've always thought it to be a false gospel.  Any quick search of an online bible will reveal the multitude of passages about bearing up under - and maintaining your faith - through suffering.

[Turkish]

We're kind of dancing around the issue of Theodicy (why does God allow suffering, and why does evil exist), but it's hard to delve into that here without getting into hard core theological discussions, and then far away from PDs.

Paul likens the Christian life to running a race with an eye on the prize: salvation, and the afterlife where there will be no suffering.

In The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said that God causes rain to fall on the just and unjust alike; so, too, the sun shines thusly on us all.

For myself, I know that I unequally yoked myself with a non-Christian (which is why her sudden adherence to Christianity is so confusing... .but I think that has a lot to do with mirroring my replacement. Ultimately, I can't know this). That is not to say that divorce and the things outside of "The Church" do not also exist within the church. I am speaking about the body of believers. The latter part of the New Testament has pretty harsh letters towards the early churches and their misbehaviors, some of which were pretty bad.

So my conclusion is, "how did I think it could have turned out any other way after a time?" Our value systems were very different. I think they still are. She thanks God for both me and also her affair partner, now fiancée. He's odd, and "God Is Love" is his mantra. He quotes spiritual things and Bible verses. I asked my Christian therapist, "do you really think that he is a blessing, and that this whole thing is from God?" He shook his head, "no." I think it may be in a sense, but not in the way either of them think.

Leaving aside God's ultimate dispensation and authority over creation, I think it's the natural consequence of my free will, my free will to make poor choices. I knew, but then I didn't. But I did. My prayer has been, as have my requests to people in my church (I finally started going again just as my r/s was spiraling... .imagine that), is for our kids. Also for me to raise them properly. What they do with that will turn out to be based upon their free wills later.

Where my heart goes out to are those who are stuck in abusive marriages where religion and twisted theology is used against them.

[JRT]

Christianity alludes to an end to suffering if not all out promises it explicitly by living a Christlike life. In the absence of that promise, there doesn't seem to be a point does there?

JRT,

I’m not a Christian, and I'm probably taking the thread off track, but I’m going to weigh in regarding your quote above.

 

Shouldn’t living the good and moral life (Christian or otherwise) be lived for its inherent value?  At least that would be the point for me.  Last week you were telling us your decision to do the right thing in regards to returning your ex’s belongings was (to paraphrase) motivated by the fact that you wanted to be able to sleep at night, knowing you were living by a certain code of moral principles.  Were there other motives at play besides this?

\

The question is academic... .this means that it doesn't necessarily represent what I feel or reality at all. Its argumentative ins a scholarly sense.

Yes, those things I said last weeks still stand.

[JRT]

Remember: it was academic. I have remained a Christian for various other reasons (though this situation is greatly testing my faith).

But even if one were to become a hedon and still were to suffer, there is no promise or illusion that there will not be suffering - this is the key. Christianity alludes to an end to suffering if not all out promises it explicitly by living a Christlike life. In the absence of that promise, there doesn't seem to be a point does there? Its like running on a treadmill and never arriving at the desired destination.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that "Christianity alludes to an end to suffering if not all-out promises it explicitly by living a Christlike life." I've never been under that impression.  Christ, Paul... .both suffered tremendously. There is a "gospel of prosperity" that some pastors preach, but I've always thought it to be a false gospel.  Any quick search of an online bible will reveal the multitude of passages about bearing up under - and maintaining your faith - through suffering.

It's clear that we have two separate understandings.

[jhkbuzz]

Remember: it was academic. I have remained a Christian for various other reasons (though this situation is greatly testing my faith).

But even if one were to become a hedon and still were to suffer, there is no promise or illusion that there will not be suffering - this is the key. Christianity alludes to an end to suffering if not all out promises it explicitly by living a Christlike life. In the absence of that promise, there doesn't seem to be a point does there? Its like running on a treadmill and never arriving at the desired destination.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that "Christianity alludes to an end to suffering if not all-out promises it explicitly by living a Christlike life." I've never been under that impression.  Christ, Paul... .both suffered tremendously. There is a "gospel of prosperity" that some pastors preach, but I've always thought it to be a false gospel.  Any quick search of an online bible will reveal the multitude of passages about bearing up under - and maintaining your faith - through suffering.

It's clear that we have two separate understandings.

Yes.

[Mutt]

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