Wife complaining via daughter

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

D9 came up to me while S4 was on my lap watching something on my computer.  She was upset and told S4 to let Daddy work.  I asked her a little later without S4 around why she was upset.  She said that it was because I dillydallied on the weekdays, so I did not have time to spend with the family and do family things.  I asked her why she said that.  She said it was what Mommy said.

Under questioning before bed, she said that it was not exactly what Mommy said.  Mommy said something like, ":)addy relaxed too much on the weekdays, and that left little time for weekend activities."  I asked, "Relaxed?  You mean like when I do the dishes?"  D9 said yes and added that I had basically taken Mommy's job away from her.  She also said that Mommy does not have a lot to do.

I refrained from saying, "Mommy can get a job."  In MC, my wife has been complimenting on my changes to do more around the house.  This ignores that I have done a lot around the house at previous times over the years until I was beaten down by her.  Apparently, I do too little, do too much and/or do it at the wrong time(s).

I also know that a grapevine can change the message, but I think what my daughter heard is close to this.

I am not sure how to handle it.  If I complain about this directly, she may blame our daughter for causing issues.  I do not want our daughter involved in this.  I may try to bring it up during MC from the standpoint of doing a lot around the house is reducing my family time, but I need to think on that more.

All this is getting to be too much for me to tolerate.  The MC keeps saying that there obviously was a connection at one point to draw us together.  It makes me feel guilty for considering divorce.

[Zon]

D9 came up to me while S4 was on my lap watching something on my computer.  She was upset and told S4 to let Daddy work.  I asked her a little later without S4 around why she was upset.  She said that it was because I dillydallied on the weekdays, so I did not have time to spend with the family and do family things.  I asked her why she said that.  She said it was what Mommy said.

Under questioning before bed, she said that it was not exactly what Mommy said.  Mommy said something like, ":)addy relaxed too much on the weekdays, and that left little time for weekend activities."  I asked, "Relaxed?  You mean like when I do the dishes?"  D9 said yes and added that I had basically taken Mommy's job away from her.  She also said that Mommy does not have a lot to do.

I refrained from saying, "Mommy can get a job."  In MC, my wife has been complimenting on my changes to do more around the house.  This ignores that I have done a lot around the house at previous times over the years until I was beaten down by her.  Apparently, I do too little, do too much and/or do it at the wrong time(s).

I also know that a grapevine can change the message, but I think what my daughter heard is close to this.

I am not sure how to handle it.  If I complain about this directly, she may blame our daughter for causing issues.  I do not want our daughter involved in this.  I may try to bring it up during MC from the standpoint of doing a lot around the house is reducing my family time, but I need to think on that more.

All this is getting to be too much for me to tolerate.  The MC keeps saying that there obviously was a connection at one point to draw us together.  It makes me feel guilty for considering divorce.

[Mutt]

I'm sorry to hear that. A mother with BPD and parental alienation, it's not uncommon for a mother with BPD to speak poorly about the other parent to turn the children against them.

She may not be capable of tolerating a loving relationship between the father and the children as she may perceive it as threat with her relationship with the children. Christine Ann Lawson, Ph.D. and her book “Understanding the Borderline Mother” may be helpful.

How do you feel about divorce for the sake of the kids? A parent can be a positive role model after divorce.  Is your MC familiar with a complex mental illness?

[Zon]

I'm sorry to hear that. A mother with BPD and parental alienation, it's not uncommon for a mother with BPD to speak poorly about the other parent to turn the children against them.

She may not be capable of tolerating a loving relationship between the father and the children as she may perceive it as threat with her relationship with the children. Christine Ann Lawson, Ph.D. and her book “Understanding the Borderline Mother” may be helpful.

Interesting.  She has implied a few times her fear that the children would not see her as their mom.  I validated her saying that she will always be their mom.  Thank you for the resource.

How do you feel about divorce for the sake of the kids? A parent can be a positive role model after divorce.  Is your MC familiar with a complex mental illness?

I am trying to wrap my head and feelings around divorce.  Guilt is heavy in me, but I have been working on using logic instead of letting guilt takeover.  I am thinking more and more that divorce may help them as well as myself.

I am not sure if my MC is or not.  How can I tell?  I think from the "Personality Disorders" part that he does.  I see this for him (LCSW) on Psychology Today's website:

    Specialties

        Relationship Issues

        Depression

        Anxiety

    Issues

        Domestic Abuse

        Trauma and PTSD

        Domestic Violence

    Mental Health

        Dissociative Disorders

        Thinking Disorders

        Personality Disorders

    Issues

        Couples Counseling

And this:

    Treatment Approach

        Treatment Orientation:

            Attachment-based

            Existential

            Family/Marital

            Humanistic

            Psychodynamic

        Modality:

            Individuals

            Couples

[Mutt]

I am trying to wrap my head and feelings around divorce.  Guilt is heavy in me, but I have been working on using logic instead of letting guilt takeover.  I am thinking more and more that divorce may help them as well as myself.

You could ask and get a sense of how much the MC understands.

If your in MC with your spouse, I'd save it for your T perhaps.

I'm not advocating divorce. I was dead-set against it in my marriage and it was my ex partners lack of impulse control and her choice. I begged her not to leave. I understand how you may feel guilty, a let-down or worried about the kids and how it may effect them.

I think my ex made the right choice. Your doing something right with the kids to get a reaction like that from her?

I have shared custody, my kids are happier and more relaxed on my time without the tension and stress that was going in the home before. I validate their feelings and my home is an emotional safety net for them, a place where they can relax from the drama they get in their home with mom.

I feel differently 2 years after separation than when I was in the war-zone with my ex. My kids are coping better and they're happier and I can say for myself, it's more important than marriage if a partner is not committed to doing the work.

I was on one side of the fence and didn't realize there's a whole other side with just as many people. I'm happier, I gave it my best at the time, learned a lot of lessons that I'll take forth in the next relationship / marriage. The pay off is seeing my kids happier, more relaxed, laughing and not seeing dad being blasted by mom anymore.

[Zon]

I am trying to wrap my head and feelings around divorce.  Guilt is heavy in me, but I have been working on using logic instead of letting guilt takeover.  I am thinking more and more that divorce may help them as well as myself.

You could ask and get a sense of how much the MC understands.

Within the session or outside of my wife's range?

If your in MC with your spouse, I'd save it for your T perhaps.

My T said today that he cannot make an evaluation from what I say (as I said before I asked), but he can say that it affects me a great deal.  The affects are what lead him to see something with her.  However, a politician commits more strongly to a statement than that. 

I'm not advocating divorce. I was dead-set against it in my marriage and it was my ex partners lack of impulse control and her choice. I begged her not to leave. I understand how you may feel guilty, a let-down or worried about the kids and how it may effect them.

She asked you for a divorce or forced it?  My wife has hinted and suggested but will not do it without me asking her for the divorce.  However, if we do stick with our pseudo-marriage, she wants me to pay for her expenses.  She is not a big spender, but I did not like the feel of that thought.

I think my ex made the right choice. Your doing something right with the kids to get a reaction like that from her?

I am not sure I follow.  That question in italics was from her?

I have shared custody, my kids are happier and more relaxed on my time without the tension and stress that was going in the home before. I validate their feelings and my home is an emotional safety net for them, a place where they can relax from the drama they get in their home with mom.

I feel differently 2 years after separation than when I was in the war-zone with my ex. My kids are coping better and they're happier and I can say for myself, it's more important than marriage if a partner is not committed to doing the work.

I was on one side of the fence and didn't realize there's a whole other side with just as many people. I'm happier, I gave it my best at the time, learned a lot of lessons that I'll take forth in the next relationship / marriage. The pay off is seeing my kids happier, more relaxed, laughing and not seeing dad being blasted by mom anymore.

That does sound very good.  Happy kids and happy you.  How did the kids react at first?  Crazy, calm, uncontrollable, etc.?

[Mutt]

Within the session or outside of my wife's range?

Is she aware she's mentally ill?

If your in MC with your spouse, I'd save it for your T perhaps.

My T said today that he cannot make an evaluation from what I say (as I said before I asked), but he can say that it affects me a great deal.  The affects are what lead him to see something with her.  However, a politician commits more strongly to a statement than that.  

My T can't either, he says it sounds like a mental illness of some sort.

She asked you for a divorce or forced it?  My wife has hinted and suggested but will not do it without me asking her for the divorce.  However, if we do stick with our pseudo-marriage, she wants me to pay for her expenses.  She is not a big spender, but I did not like the feel of that thought.

My ex often threatened divorce in marriage and I didn't think much of it at the time. There would be break-up then quickly followed by make-up sessions. She wants intimacy and fears it at the same time. She was projecting her feelings and blaming me for the source of her unhappiness and fears abandonment.

To answer the question, after several years I became increasingly frustrated with her behaviors and I was not aware at the time that I may be dealing with mentally ill person. She was always unhappy about something and I kept trying to find ways that I could make her happier in the marriage and nothing worked. I set up several MC sessions with different T's over the years and my own T parallel to these sessions and the advice I was given was not where one partner is non-disordered and the other is disordered.

The advice and tools were not working and she was emotionally dysregulate for long periods and raged often. One evening she was raging for close to an hour and at the end after she eventually calmed down I told her I want a divorce and triggered her fear of abandonment. She started looking for another attachment and started an affair.

I am not sure I follow.  That question in italics was from her?

The italics is in reference to parental alienation and having a loving relationship with your kids and your spouse is not tolerating this relationship. Your spouse is triggered from the affection you show your kids?

She may not be capable of tolerating a loving relationship between the father and the children as she may perceive it as threat with her relationship with the children

That does sound very good.  Happy kids and happy you.  How did the kids react at first?  Crazy, calm, uncontrollable, etc.?

My ex left our house and moved into another home and the boyfriend moved in. A huge transition where they are living with dad for several years ( D9, S7, S3 ) a new home and a strange man where mom is openly showing him affection. They were seeing dad every day and now they see dad every second weekend for a couple of days.

My ex partner was not focusing on the kids and their needs and was focused on her needs and she would not give me the kids if I was available to watch them. My point, the kids were being watched by up to 4 different people in different homes in a day. They would also sleep at their home, the boyfriends home ( hadn't move out yet and was mostly at my exe's place ) sometimes and sometimes dad.

My kids were feeling stress and they cope better with stress than adults do, they likely felt lost in the shuffle and weren't getting support from mom and were getting support from me.

A court order settled that, gave my kids routine and spend half the time with dad. I started seeing improvements right away and getting feedback from teachers that my kids were performing better in school and seemed happier. It took time and work and over the course of several months my kids were improving.

My ex's lack of foresight was a choice I couldn't make because I felt guilty, I didn't want the kids to have a broken home. The reality of it is, sometimes it's better to not be or live together if it's not good for the kids emotionally. My ex thinks I'm the source of her problems and doesn't think she has problems.

It's a big decision and it may take time to make your decision either way. I don't think you should feel guilt if your doing what's best for the kids?

[Zon]

Within the session or outside of my wife's range?

Is she aware she's mentally ill?

She does not.  I am still the one that "needs to change" in her book.  She may want a second chance, but I cannot do it unless I see that she becomes aware of her own issues.  She has been biting her tongue at times where she would lash out directly at the children or I.

She asked you for a divorce or forced it?  My wife has hinted and suggested but will not do it without me asking her for the divorce.  However, if we do stick with our pseudo-marriage, she wants me to pay for her expenses.  She is not a big spender, but I did not like the feel of that thought.

My ex often threatened divorce in marriage and I didn't think much of it at the time. There would be break-up then quickly followed by make-up sessions. She wants intimacy and fears it at the same time. She was projecting her feelings and blaming me for the source of her unhappiness and fears abandonment.

To answer the question, after several years I became increasingly frustrated with her behaviors and I was not aware at the time that I may be dealing with mentally ill person. She was always unhappy about something and I kept trying to find ways that I could make her happier in the marriage and nothing worked. I set up several MC sessions with different T's over the years and my own T parallel to these sessions and the advice I was given was not where one partner is non-disordered and the other is disordered.

The advice and tools were not working and she was emotionally dysregulate for long periods and raged often. One evening she was raging for close to an hour and at the end after she eventually calmed down I told her I want a divorce and triggered her fear of abandonment. She started looking for another attachment and started an affair.

Surprisingly, I thought my wife had some sort of personality disorder in 2003, but I overlooked it until ten years later.  She has progressed further from me over the years.  I cannot tell if she truly wants intimacy or not.  She has so many excuses for refusing intimacy.

I have tried many changes in me and various things I thought would make her happy without success.  Obviously, a person cannot make someone be happy, but I did not realize it until the last two years.

Wow.  That was fast.  She never looked elsewhere then found someone quickly.  May I ask how quickly?  I am an inquisitive creature, but if you are uncomfortable, there is no need to answer this or my other questions.  I cannot see my wife doing that, but who knows.

I am not sure I follow.  That question in italics was from her?

The italics is in reference to parental alienation and having a loving relationship with your kids and your spouse is not tolerating this relationship. Your spouse is triggered from the affection you show your kids?

She may not be capable of tolerating a loving relationship between the father and the children as she may perceive it as threat with her relationship with the children

That would make sense.  She did say at one time recently that I do not want our marriage, but I do want to be a good dad.

That does sound very good.  Happy kids and happy you.  How did the kids react at first?  Crazy, calm, uncontrollable, etc.?

My ex left our house and moved into another home and the boyfriend moved in. A huge transition where they are living with dad for several years ( D9, S7, S3 ) a new home and a strange man where mom is openly showing him affection. They were seeing dad every day and now they see dad every second weekend for a couple of days.

My ex partner was not focusing on the kids and their needs and was focused on her needs and she would not give me the kids if I was available to watch them. My point, the kids were being watched by up to 4 different people in different homes in a day. They would also sleep at their home, the boyfriends home ( hadn't move out yet and was mostly at my exe's place ) sometimes and sometimes dad.

My kids were feeling stress and they cope better with stress than adults do, they likely felt lost in the shuffle and weren't getting support from mom and were getting support from me.

A court order settled that, gave my kids routine and spend half the time with dad. I started seeing improvements right away and getting feedback from teachers that my kids were performing better in school and seemed happier. It took time and work and over the course of several months my kids were improving.

My ex's lack of foresight was a choice I couldn't make because I felt guilty, I didn't want the kids to have a broken home. The reality of it is, sometimes it's better to not be or live together if it's not good for the kids emotionally. My ex thinks I'm the source of her problems and doesn't think she has problems.

It's a big decision and it may take time to make your decision either way. I don't think you should feel guilt if your doing what's best for the kids?

It is truly a big decision.  I never rush into making big decisions.  My guilt is spread over the thoughts and fears that:

• I am not doing it just for them.  Divorce is in part for me.



• It may not be the best for them.  Should I live like that for them?  I rather not. 



• I have not done everything I can to fix her/the marriage.  When do I surrender to divorce?  I realize that it is for me to decide, but I cannot seem to make the decision.  I may have made the decision, but not taken a step.  I know what I need for it to work, but how do I know when it is fruitless to try more?

[Mutt]

Wow.  That was fast.  She never looked elsewhere then found someone quickly.  May I ask how quickly? I am an inquisitive creature, but if you are uncomfortable, there is no need to answer this or my other questions.  I cannot see my wife doing that, but who knows.

You may ask, curiousity is a part of my personality. He is a friend of a couple ( her ) that were our neighbors. I knew them for a couple of years and I wasn't fond of them because of some of their toxic behaviors. I told her I wanted a divorce in Nov 2012 and by the summer I could tell that she was acting different and by fall she was going through a dissociative phase and was projecting her shame, guilt on me from her actions ( physical affair ) it's speculation. By winter she would go out and not return home until next morning so I have a pretty good idea she was out with him  

I had confronted her and she said it wasn't an affair because she said she was leaving me and agreed to remain home until winter - dissociation. That being said, she likely went to her friend and told her I was abusive and wanted rescue. I do know from another mutual friend she met him at a party when I we were seperated.

It is truly a big decision.  I never rush into making big decisions.  My guilt is spread over the thoughts and fears that:

• I am not doing it just for them.  :)ivorce is in part for me.



• It may not be the best for them.  Should I live like that for them?  I rather not.  



• I have not done everything I can to fix her/the marriage.  When do I surrender to divorce?  I realize that it is for me to decide, but I cannot seem to make the decision.  I may have made the decision, but not taken a step.  I know what I need for it to work, but how do I know when it is fruitless to try more?

You ask good questions. You can't fix her.

[Zon]

I had confronted her and she said it wasn't an affair because she said she was leaving me and agreed to remain home until winter - dissociation. That being said, she likely went to her friend and told her I was abusive and wanted rescue. I do know from another mutual friend she met him at a party when I we were seperated.

Thank you for the answers.  It was quick but not as quick (days) as I was thinking.  She had resigned to a divorce but had not left before looking for your replacement.

It is truly a big decision.  I never rush into making big decisions.  My guilt is spread over the thoughts and fears that:

• I am not doing it just for them.  :)ivorce is in part for me.



• It may not be the best for them.  Should I live like that for them?  I rather not.  



• I have not done everything I can to fix her/the marriage.  When do I surrender to divorce?  I realize that it is for me to decide, but I cannot seem to make the decision.  I may have made the decision, but not taken a step.  I know what I need for it to work, but how do I know when it is fruitless to try more?

You ask good questions. You can't fix her.

I realize it but keep forgetting it at the same time.  Thank you for the reminder.

I will keep plodding along until my answers come to me or I find them.

[Mutt]

I can appreciate your frustration, doubt and uncertainty.

Everything comes gradually and at it's appointed hour.

[livednlearned]

Hi Zon,

It's difficult when kids are involved, and are parroting what their BPD parent says. Like Mutt said, parental alienation is common, not just after a marriage, but during when a parent's emotional immaturity leads them to say inappropriate things to kids.

This quote:

She may not be capable of tolerating a loving relationship between the father and the children as she may perceive it as threat with her relationship with the children. Christine Ann Lawson, Ph.D. and her book “Understanding the Borderline Mother” may be helpful.

Interesting.  She has implied a few times her fear that the children would not see her as their mom. I validated her saying that she will always be their mom.

You can do this with the kids too. When your D parroted what your wife said, she is expressing a feeling, not just the statement of fact. Often kids feels the tension in our homes more acutely than we realize. Your D is aware that something is wrong and she is trying to fix it. She may feel that things are not stable, so she needs to take care of it, because the adults aren't on top of things, otherwise they would fix the problem.    She came to you with this comment because she is feeling tremendous stress.

You can relieve some of this tension by validating how she feels. ":)o you feel worried that I relax?" And keep the line of questioning going until she can unload some of her feelings. She might need reassurance that you love her, and if she can articulate that she is afraid you will divorce, be ready to validate how she feels. It is a common trap to defend ourselves and our actions when our kids sound like the other parent. But the real reason they come to you with these things is out of stress and fear, not to fact check.

Kids also feel that if there were truly lovable, the adults would stop fighting. They are sponges for the tension.

I hope it's ok to chime in with this. I know that in my marriage, I was so unmoored by the tension and strife that I had higher-than-average needs for validation too, because my ex could not possibly provide that. The whole family was adrift, no one was validating S13, including me. He really suffered because of it.

[Zon]

Hi Zon,

It's difficult when kids are involved, and are parroting what their BPD parent says. Like Mutt said, parental alienation is common, not just after a marriage, but during when a parent's emotional immaturity leads them to say inappropriate things to kids.

This quote:

She may not be capable of tolerating a loving relationship between the father and the children as she may perceive it as threat with her relationship with the children. Christine Ann Lawson, Ph.D. and her book “Understanding the Borderline Mother” may be helpful.

Interesting.  She has implied a few times her fear that the children would not see her as their mom. I validated her saying that she will always be their mom.

You can do this with the kids too. When your D parroted what your wife said, she is expressing a feeling, not just the statement of fact. Often kids feels the tension in our homes more acutely than we realize. Your D is aware that something is wrong and she is trying to fix it. She may feel that things are not stable, so she needs to take care of it, because the adults aren't on top of things, otherwise they would fix the problem.    She came to you with this comment because she is feeling tremendous stress.

At times, she has not seemed stressed by the situation.  However, you are most probably correct in that she is stressed by the issues between her parents.  Of course, my wife has to put heavy weights (figurative) on our D9 from time to time.  Not always.  Same as with me, my wife randomly blows something out of proportion to strike harder on our daughter.

You can relieve some of this tension by validating how she feels. ":)o you feel worried that I relax?" And keep the line of questioning going until she can unload some of her feelings. She might need reassurance that you love her, and if she can articulate that she is afraid you will divorce, be ready to validate how she feels. It is a common trap to defend ourselves and our actions when our kids sound like the other parent. But the real reason they come to you with these things is out of stress and fear, not to fact check.

Kids also feel that if there were truly lovable, the adults would stop fighting. They are sponges for the tension.

I did ask, but it was certainly amateurish.  I think I asked if she was doing OK regarding the moment she wanted her brother to let me work.  She said she was OK in a happy indifferent way like she had mostly forgotten about it.  I will try to speak with her more and for a longer period.  I have tried many times on other subjects, but she keeps getting off the track.  Probably avoidance, but it makes it harder since I have limited time with her without my wife interrupting.

Oh, yes!  The desire to defend myself was there.    I was able to restrain it to my initial question about doing the chores.  Not quite a defense, but I also explained to her why Daddy was doing so much work (i.e., new job, MANY components to learn).  My hope is that she will understand that I am not slacking as opposed to saying Mommy is wrong.  If she asks, I will say Mommy is just mistaken which can happen without fault.

NOTE:  Of course, posting on and reading this forum is a little bit of a slack. 

I tell her that I love her as well as hug her when I can (energetic moving target).  Our daughter, unfortunately, inherited my ability to get stressed along with my wife adding to it.  My son is not like that.  I have to watch him else he will be a tougher version of Mommy.

I have done my best not to fight nor argue about our situation while my wife has done it with children nearby.  Also, she has explained the situation to our daughter in a less comforting way.  That has not helped.  I did talk with my daughter about that and reinforced that both Daddy and Mommy love her.  I really had to do that after the time when my wife told our daughter that if she left it would be because of her and her brother who had been annoying her earlier.

I hope it's ok to chime in with this. I know that in my marriage, I was so unmoored by the tension and strife that I had higher-than-average needs for validation too, because my ex could not possibly provide that. The whole family was adrift, no one was validating S13, including me. He really suffered because of it.

Please do!  I admit that I get defensive from being so stubborn, but I take a breath and absorb all that people tell me.  You are absolutely correct.  I have realized that the situation can have a lot of fallout on the children.  However, realizing and acting upon that realization or two different things.  I can handle reminders and prodding easily.

On a funny note, I told my wife in MC that I do not mind reminders at all while she cannot stand giving them.  The led me to a surefire test to see if a spouse has a personality disorder:  if they get mad because you ask for their opinion, they must have a PD.  Normal spouses would GLADLY tell you what you should do.