Being painted black by using a life situation rather than me personally (HELP)

[4Years5Months]

I have been in an off and on relationship with a 25 year old BPD female for almost five years.  At the moment, the relationship is over for the sixth time.  Every breakup has been initiated by her.  The first few breakups she would place the blame on me - I wasn't making enough effort, we fought too much, etc.  By the fourth breakup, I sought out help on forums like this one and others, and was opened to the idea of her having BPD.  She hasn't ever been diagnosed (she would never go to therapy), but exhibits very strong traits. 

With each breakup, she ends it with immense sadness (but is sure it's the right decision), cuts off contact, deletes me from social media, says we cannot communicate and both need time apart to "heal" - but always leaves the door open to be "friends" someday.  I then give her space (between a week and a month) and then try to contact her.  She would always respond, but reiterate that we couldn't talk, but eventually after enough conversation, she comes back around and decides she wants to be with me.  A constant cycle.

The last two breakups, she has used a life situation - she wants to move to a different city, and because I have a 10-year-old daughter and couldn't just up and move with her without considerable planning, she takes it as me NOT wanting to move with her.  That's not necessarily the case, but she uses it as the reason to end the relationship - if she is going to move away, even in a couple of years, we can't be together is her rationale.  Last summer, she brought it up/broke up with me around my birthday.  This time, we went from talking about marriage while on vacation to her using this situation to distance herself from me just two weeks later.

When she does this, she is always at a low point - hates her job, hates where she lives (with her mom), hates this part of the country where we live.  Decides she wants a major change.  Typically it's several small things that don't go her way (money, bad day at work, etc), and then it's like a snowball effect - she becomes dissatisfied, and then I become part of that snowball.  The push away conversation usually begins with her asking about moving away in the future ("Would you ever want to live in (name of city)?" and I always answer the same way - that it would take a lot for me to move away, but I'm not against it.  She then doesn't like that answer, decides she is going to move away on her own (claiming that it's the only way she can be happy) and decides to end our relationship.  The thing is, she is obsessed with the IDEA - but never has a plan.  She talks and talks, but well, she has been saying it for years, and does literally nothing to try and get there.  That's how I know it's just a projected excuse from her BPD.

I also know this because after the breakup, she will then surround herself with friends - most of them new friends from her work that she had no previous personal connection with.  She doesn't try to work toward moving away, she just goes out every night.  She has told me numerous times that she hangs out with "work people" for the distraction from "all of the crap in (her) life."  They essentially replace me, basically.  It shouldn't come as a surprise that each time we get back together, these "friends" become less and less important.  The people she would hang out with two years ago, she doesn't even see or talk to anymore.

Last summer, when she broke up with me for the fifth time, she became infatuated with one of these work friends, a guy that she knew had been interested in her for quite awhile.  He was young loser and inexperienced romantically, a prime target.  She very briefly dated him, slept with him, and then the infatuation faded (that should tell you how the sex went) and she came crawling back to me, crying, begging to for me to take her back, promising to change.  It seemed like she would, but we are back in the EXACT same spot just four months later.  I worry that she will once again do the same now.

I was able to get her to respond to me today, and she was quite adamant that we cannot talk because once again, we cannot be together and need time apart.  She would leave the door cracked JUST a bit by saying "right now" I can't contact her and that she doesn't want us to be out of each other's lives forever.  It was the first time I had spoken to her in three weeks, I gave her space, and she seemed even more hardened.  It shocked me.  I fear that I am on my way to being permanently split black, and there was NO catalyst for it.

I would say she is a "quiet" or "waif" BPDer, she very rarely lashes out in anger - it's more frustrated anger, and has never been physically violent or done some of the "acting out" BPD traits, such as telling lies about me to others, etc.  When she breaks up with me, she seems full of guilt - "I'm very sorry about this situation" - "I love and care about you so much" - "You don't deserve me" - "I have wasted your time" - are some of her recurring phrases.  She seems incredibly reluctant to let me go, but also is absolutely sure (at that time) that it's the right decision.

WITH ALL THAT SAID

Has anyone else had this experience?  Where a BPD partner loves YOU and wants to be with you, but a life situation (that they create) gets in the way, and they end things as a result?  A situation that supposedly cannot be changed in their mind?  I have read accounts from exBPD partners who are painted black by accusations or actions.  I have been painted black numerous times by a situation, and I don't know what to do.

My current plan is to leave her alone for say, a month.  I highly doubt she will contact me.  I will reach out to her and see how she is, because as a BPDer, she could feel a different way by that point.  If she rebuffs me, I'll leave her alone.  I have considered giving her three opportunities - today was strike one.  At this point, I honestly would rather be just friends with her.  I can't imagine being in a relationship with her any longer - this has happened to many times, and it would absolutely happen again - but I still value her incredibly and value what she has brought to my life.  I feel like as a friend, I can have that without the intense valuing/devaluing.

Any guidance or ideas?  This has been incredibly hard for me because she leaves me with such remorse and guilt.  I would have an easier time handling it if she was a b**ch, but she does it in the most gentle way possible, and always wants to reconnect in the future.  It's agony.

Thanks for reading.

[Invictus01]

If I were you, and if you are pretty certain she is BPD, I'd just walk away. The problem is that you don't have to be in a romantic relationship with her for her to screw you over in one way or another. It happens to friends, co-workers, anybody. I had a boss at one time and nobody could understand how time after time, she would hire somebody and within 6-12 months, that person would go from the best thing ever to the scapegoat for all mistakes and errors and be fired. I've seen her do this to two people, I was in the middle of the process myself when I left the company. Now that I have had this experience, I NOW know what her problem was - idolization--->devalue---> discard, workplace style. I saw the woman who caused me to end up on this forum devalue and discard one of her friends/co-workers. In about 4 months they went from good buddies (she was the first friend I was introduced to) to a huge blow up where my ex was thinking about taking out a restraining order to my ex telling me "that is why I don't trust anybody". So, just stay away, nothing good will come out of this... .

[tjay933]

I guess the only thing I can ask you is something you should be asking yourself: is this the pattern you want for your life? she's done it before and will do it again. this cycle will not end. only you can answer if that is acceptable to you.

[ShadowIntheNight]

My ex's push/pull was always around some external event that then was turned into her not wanting to be with me anymore. We were together 9.5 yrs and have been broken up for 7 months. The last time she was triggered was by being humiliated in a custody battle with her former husband. She didn't lose the case but she did not win in the convincing way she had hoped. She spent the next 1.5 months devaluing me and searching for my replacement at the same time. The previous time the push happened 4 yrs ago her I told her I was finished if it ever happened again. It has been tremendously difficult not to contact her, but I'm sure she has a new bf so I won't give her the satisfaction of rubbing it in my face. I have to remind myself she hasn't heard from me either, and I suspect that has been harder than she thought, particularly because I began getting several hangup calls each month beginning last September.

As for the work style idiolizatin/devaluation/discard, she did the exact same thing to people she worked with too. I always kidded her about her boss, (a woman as well/Longterm lesbian relat between us) and asked her if she was breaking up with her boss or if they had kissed and made up. She laughed about the cycle too. My uBPDexgf is a therapist and is 46. Other coworkers that she went thru the cycle with were not people who worked with her but in different departments. She couldn't discard her boss tho she wanted to. Instead she would just get really depressed when the boss corrected her for something, after she first got enraged for being "criticized."

I don't know about your gf's future, but unless she gets some sort of counseling, you've got a long haul, even if she isn't BPD. Clealrly something is troubling her.

I was an outgoing happy person. By the time we ended I felt worn out because even tho I gave her a lot, it wasn't enough. Is that what you want?

[Mike-X]

I am sorry that you are going through all of this. Have you considered that moving is just a convenient/obvious target that she can bring up to justify her low self-worth and fears/feelings of rejection? Even if you could move, do you think that there would there be other targets that she would use? In other words, might she be cycling through feelings of emptiness and low self-worth and then searching for extrinsic justifications for those feelings, which in this case comes in the form of you rejecting her for not being willing to move?

[4Years5Months]

Have you considered that moving is just a convenient/obvious target that she can bring up to justify her low self-worth and fears/feelings of rejection? Even if you could move, do you think that there would there be other targets that she would use? In other words, might she be cycling through feelings of emptiness and low self-worth and then searching for extrinsic justifications for those feelings, which in this case comes in the form of you rejecting her for not being willing to move?

First of all, thank ALL of you who have replied so far.

Mike-X, that is a very good point, and yes, I've considered it, but I haven't been able to explain it to myself as well as you just did, so thanks.

Full disclaimer - I myself personally want to move away eventually as well, but only when I know my daughter would be okay with that change (and I know it would be a battle with her mother over parenting time), and also after I finish my Master's degree.  So there's a lot that goes into that decision, I can't just uproot myself.  It's something I want to do too, but it's just not as imperative as it is to her.  I am up front with her that it's something I want to do, but the timing and arrangement has to be right.  She hears me say all that and then says that I can't/don't want to move with her, and thus we don't have a future, and breaks up with me - simplifying it and making it a black/white issue rather than the uncertain, complex one it truly is.

She has also used moving in together here and now as well.  She wants to live downtown.  I say okay, but I need it to be by (a certain highway) so I don't have a long drive to work.  She hears that and says I don't want to live downtown, and that we have different goals.  Ugh.

She claims that she HAS to move away because there is no opportunity for her here.  That's not true at all, but it allows her to play the victim card by saying it's not her, it's her situation that is keeping her from being happy.  I have no doubt that if she ever does move away, she will eventually grow to dislike it. 

I think she treats her living situation like she would a person - idealization, then devaluing, then discarding.  She decided to go back to school, so she moved to the college town an hour away.  Loved it for about a month.  She decided to move back after her one year lease was up, because she now hated the college town, and made the drive to classes for her last two semesters instead.  After she graduated, she said she was so glad she never had to go back there.  She has changed jobs five times since we started dating, and it's the same pattern with employment as well - always excited about it when she starts, convinced she is better than that place when she quits.  I suppose that's how a lot of us look at working, though, ha. 

It's an easy, go-to target excuse.  And she can talk and talk about it and use it without having to actually make the effort.  She even told me at this last breakup that it will be at least two years before she would actually be able to move, due to her car lease as she wants to live in New York.  Didn't matter - we had to break up right now.

Another thing that bothers me - she will break up with me because we don't have a future, but hook up with guys who are even more grounded here than I am.  The guy she dated last summer?  23, lives with his parents, who pays all of his bills.  When I told her "You said we have to break up because you will eventually move - shouldn't that mean you don't date ANYONE until you move, for the same reason?"  Her response, of course, was he COULD move with her because he didn't have a child.  Yep, a 23 year old who still lives at home has a better shot of moving with her than I can.  That is why I consider it so preposterous.

One more point I would like to make about this - at this moment, I don't want to be anything more than her friend if we ever communicate again.  Truly.  This last push and pull really convinced me that she would keep doing it if we were a couple.  Yes, she could still find ways to do it as a friend, but it carries less weight for me, I think.  For me, a friend doesn't require the emotional intimacy and investment that a girlfriend does.  I would feel comfortable with her in that situation, as opposed to the eggshells I walked on as her boyfriend.  I want to keep in contact with her because she truly is a good person - she acts in rather than acts out.  She has been a great part of my life when she isn't pushing me away.  She hasn't done anything to me that I would consider unforgivable, all of this push and pull aside.  But when she does it, I can tell how much it hurts her to do so.  I still value her highly.  And I know it's the slipperiest slope ever to consider it, but it's where I stand right now.

[Suzn]

But when she does it, I can tell how much it hurts her to do so.  I still value her highly.  And I know it's the slipperiest slope ever to consider it, but it's where I stand right now.

What about how this hurts you? Do you value your feelings? If she is going and dating other people during these breakups how is this hurting her? Are you sure she's not just lying to you?

4Years5Months I'm sorry you're going through all of this, it's a hard place to be. I'm glad to hear you say you only want a friendship because moving away from your daughter, only to have her do this somewhere else would be a double blow.

[4Years5Months]

Suzn - the first few breakups, I just wanted her back, and would beg and plead for her to reconsider.  The last couple, I have made her admit her faults and mistakes, and she has a moment of clarity where she admits she has issues, but without specifically naming BPD or any other disorder.  She promises to "work on things" but never does anything.  At this point, I see her for what she truly is, and I think she knows it, which is why she was adamant today that we can't be together again.  But if I validate her enough and make her feel appreciated (give her space each time she doesn't want to talk), she will come around.  And that's fine, but she will only be a friend.

I also have thought about why she pushes me away - it usually happens during a time of turmoil in the rest of her life (work, money, etc).  It's like she can't immediately control those other aspects, but she can control us, and inflate her self worth by doing this and making herself a "prize" that needs to be won back.

I will also add she would routinely say I wasn't making any sacrifices being with her, but SHE was making sacrifices being with ME - by staying here and not immediately moving away.  I was expected to sacrifice and move away with her so she could be happy.  Let me just say I would never simply move away solely for my girlfriend's sake, even if I didn't have a daughter.  My comfort and happiness is important as well.

[ShadowIntheNight]

Suzn - the first few breakups, I just wanted her back, and would beg and plead for her to reconsider.  The last couple, I have made her admit her faults and mistakes, and she has a moment of clarity where she admits she has issues, but without specifically naming BPD or any other disorder.  She promises to "work on things" but never does anything.  At this point, I see her for what she truly is, and I think she knows it, which is why she was adamant today that we can't be together again.  But if I validate her enough and make her feel appreciated (give her space each time she doesn't want to talk), she will come around.  And that's fine, but she will only be a friend.

I also have thought about why she pushes me away - it usually happens during a time of turmoil in the rest of her life (work, money, etc).  It's like she can't immediately control those other aspects, but she can control us, and inflate her self worth by doing this and making herself a "prize" that needs to be won back.

I will also add she would routinely say I wasn't making any sacrifices being with her, but SHE was making sacrifices being with ME - by staying here and not immediately moving away.  I was expected to sacrifice and move away with her so she could be happy.  Let me just say I would never simply move away solely for my girlfriend's sake, even if I didn't have a daughter.  My comfort and happiness is important as well.

You know, relationships require sacrifice. Clearly you are working on a degree that will ultimately be beneficial to you and your partner in the long term. How she isn't willing to understand that short term inconveniences happen in life and that those lead to a better life down the road I don't get. UNLESS she is immature or BPD or something else. Also, distance relationships can work out if both parties have an end game to the eventual result, ie marriage and being together in the same place. It sounds like she may also have a fear of success or failure, as the case may be, and uses your living situation as an excuse to not move in any direction for herself personally because she may not know what she really wants out of life. Regardless, it has to be hard on you having to deal with this.

[Suzn]

But if I validate her enough and make her feel appreciated (give her space each time she doesn't want to talk), she will come around.  And that's fine, but she will only be a friend.

A healthy relationship is reciprocal. Friendship or otherwise. Setting boundaries around unacceptable behavior is also part of a healthy relationship, otherwise we risk enabling. Are you prepared to set boundaries with a friendship, for yourself, and for her? I ask because it isn't healthy for her to be continually triggered, react and not be held accountable any more than it is for you to be continually return to being treated as if you are of little value to her. 

[4Years5Months]

How she isn't willing to understand that short term inconveniences happen in life and that those lead to a better life down the road I don't get... .It sounds like she may also have a fear of success or failure, as the case may be, and uses your living situation as an excuse to not move in any direction for herself personally because she may not know what she really wants out of life.

If you asked her, the "better life down the road" is moving to another city, and the "short term inconveniences" have been her having to stay here and finish school.  She doesn't want to wait for me, however.  What if I was the one wanting us to move away, but we couldn't because of her school?  She doesn't appreciate sacrifice, and if she acknowledges it, it's only superficially, then back to her.

I've read over our recent text messages.  It's interesting how she says "We can't be together."  She routinely tells me how much she values me, how much she loves and cares about me, but we can't be together, because we have different goals.  It isn't about me personally, just the situation.

And if we talk again, it will be only as friends, and there will be boundaries.  I'm sure she would want to slide back into a sexual friendship/relationship, or maybe will paint me white again and decide she wants to be back together.  That is what happened last October, where she sobbed hysterically on her couch and admitted her behavior was ridiculous and she wanted to change.  She promised to work on herself, and keep me advised on how she was feeling.  She did absolutely nothing. 

If, after three months of telling me we can't be together because she is moving away (not wants to, IS) she can sit there crying and tell me she really wants to be with me forever, that she will wait for me to finish my degree so we can move away together, that she knows what the names of our children would be, that she was casually planning our wedding with her mother, that as we walked through Central Park on vacation she joked that it would be the perfect wedding location... .

... .and after all that, STILL regress back and somehow decide that we actually CAN'T be together and cut off contact with me AGAIN, then well, she will NEVER stop doing it, with me or any other guy.  And I know she will not take the necessary steps to stop the behavior, either.

Despite all of that, I STILL value her as a person.  And that's why I would attempt to be her friend, but nothing else.  I just wish I could live inside her brain for an hour to understand how she can do all of this and try to rationally justify it.

[Suzn]

A healthy relationship is reciprocal. Friendship or otherwise. Setting boundaries around unacceptable behavior is also part of a healthy relationship, otherwise we risk enabling. Are you prepared to set boundaries with a friendship, for yourself, and for her? I ask because it isn't healthy for her to be continually triggered, react and not be held accountable any more than it is for you to be continually return to being treated as if you are of little value to her.  

4Years5months I wasn't very clear in the bolded text above, my apologies. The way it reads it sounds as if you are to set boundaries FOR her. That's not what I meant, let me clarify. Boundaries are not rules for other people to live by in our lives, they are for US to live by. We can't set boundaries for others, it's not our place, we can only do this for ourselves.

I've read over our recent text messages.  It's interesting how she says "We can't be together."  She routinely tells me how much she values me, how much she loves and cares about me, but we can't be together, because we have different goals.  It isn't about me personally, just the situation.

This is a boundary she has set for herself. Whether or not she means it or it's truthful, doesn't matter. It's not up to us to decide, we have to accept it at face value.

But if I validate her enough and make her feel appreciated (give her space each time she doesn't want to talk), she will come around.  And that's fine, but she will only be a friend.

You say you wait two or three weeks then contact her after she's told you you two can't talk and then do this above. This is stepping over the boundary she put in place for NC, on her end. It's not up to us to determine how long other's boundaries are in force.

And if we talk again, it will be only as friends, and there will be boundaries.  I'm sure she would want to slide back into a sexual friendship/relationship, or maybe will paint me white again and decide she wants to be back together. That is what happened last October, where she sobbed hysterically on her couch and admitted her behavior was ridiculous and she wanted to change.  She promised to work on herself, and keep me advised on how she was feeling. She did absolutely nothing.

From what you wrote she has no impulse control and she has no idea how to work on herself. Does she have a T? Her sobbing hysterically, admitting her faults, wanting to change and not having a clue as to how to go about doing that could be seen as agony for a pwBPD.

STILL regress back and somehow decide that we actually CAN'T be together and cut off contact with me AGAIN, then well, she will NEVER stop doing it, with me or any other guy.  And I know she will not take the necessary steps to stop the behavior, either.

See above.

Despite all of that, I STILL value her as a person.  And that's why I would attempt to be her friend, but nothing else.  I just wish I could live inside her brain for an hour to understand how she can do all of this and try to rationally justify it.

Have you ever watched a small child being reprimanded by a parent and see them tell that parent "I hate you!" And then 30 minutes later snuggling up to that parent and telling them "I love you?" The I hate you is having no impulse control. It's similar to her telling you she wants to move, you outlining the steps to make that happen and then her telling you she doesn't want to move in the same conversation. You are likely more of a parent figure to her.

When we value someone we respect their wishes, their boundaries, as much as we expect them to respect ours. I'm not talking about moving, I'm talking about her making a decision about NC since she feels you have different goals. There is no question that you love her. You are both walking over boundaries and as long as that happens this cycle will continue. Boundary violations are sneaky devils and it's up to us to become more clear when the lines are blurry.

[4Years5Months]

I appreciate the feedback.

It's similar to her telling you she wants to move, you outlining the steps to make that happen and then her telling you she doesn't want to move in the same conversation. You are likely more of a parent figure to her.

I think she has an issue with the TIME I feel it would take to accomplish that goal.  She wants it to just happen, which just isn't realistic.  We talked about moving back in together last summer, and I said we should take the rest of the year to pay off our individual bills first, and she didn't like that.  She wanted to move RIGHT THEN, because she doesn't like living with her mother (who exhibits VERY severe BPD traits as well).  After that, whenever she would talk about moving, it was always an apartment for herself, not us.

I think you mean a therapist for "T?"  She does not, and I have casually suggested it, especially during our last reconciliation, and she scoffs at the idea.  Again, she says just needs to move away and make more money, and she wouldn't be miserable.

In regards to boundaries, after our last in person conversation (where she once again ended the relationship), I didn't contact her for three weeks.  She has never said "do not ever try to contact me again."  If she did, I would respect that, and attempt to move on with my life.  She always leaves the door open for a friendship eventually.  Anyway, I didn't contact her for three weeks, which included her birthday.

But she still doesn't slam the door in my face.  Here is our most recent text conversation from two days ago, again after three weeks NC:


Me:  Can I ask how you are doing?  I care about you and value you, and would like to have a friendship.

(My iPhone shows she read the text almost immediately, but it took her nearly a day to respond)

Her:  (My name), we can't be together, and it's not smart for us to be friends right now.  Maybe down the line we can reconnect, but we need time apart.  I also value you highly - I do.  I care about you.  But I do not want there to be communication between us currently.

Me:  I am sorry you feel that way.  Should I not attempt to contact you again?

Her:  Right now, no.  I am sorry about this situation.

Me:  Right now?  I respect how you feel, even if I am saddened that you do.  I care about you, so unless you say no, I will give you space and try to reach out in the future.  Or would you prefer that I not do that, and consider you gone from my life?

Her:  I truly do hope that we can be friends in the future.  I don't want to be gone from each other's lives forever.

Me:  I don't want that either.  I hope you are doing okay.

Her:  Thank you, you too.

Me:  I sincerely hope that when I contact you in the future, you will respond and will be ready to be friends.  I love you very much.  You can always contact me about anything.

Her:  I appreciate that.

Me:  I appreciate YOU.  Take care.

Her:  You too, (my name).


Now, to most people, that seems pretty cut and dry.  But I notice how she doesn't want any communication CURRENTLY.  RIGHT NOW, she doesn't want me to contact her.  I offered to reach out in the future, and she didn't tell me not to.  She didn't tell me it was okay either, but her comments suggest that.  It's as if she wants to tell me that, but doesn't want to show too much emotion about it.  She also says "you too" to express affection during the push away phase, instead of "I love you too."  It's like she keeps herself from actually saying it.  She also uses my name more often during these times.

I typed all that out because, well, this has happened NUMEROUS times.  She has basically said the same things as above, verbatim, during every devaluing period.  This his how every first-attempt-after-NC goes, she is adamant that we can't talk.  Then I give her more space, reach out again, and she is more receptive.  It is like she needs to have this initial conversation to know I am not terrible, or something.

Who knows what will happen if I reach out again.  I may not.  But, and I understand boundaries, to me that above conversation says "give me more time" - not "leave me alone."

Does anyone have any thoughts?

[4Years5Months]

Just found out from a mutual friend (who didn't know of the breakup and was curious) that she posted a photo of her and another guy on Facebook, and posted a status about getting a downtown hotel for a "staycation" this weekend.

Again, in December, we were in New York together talking about marriage.

[Suzn]

I'm so sorry to hear about this.    How are you doing?

[4Years5Months]

I suppose I could say that I am hurt, but at the same time, I'm insulted.  The photo in question was a goofy photo of her and the guy making faces at the camera, but she doesn't just post things without a reason or a motive.  There weren't a bunch of other photos with other people, just the one with him.  And it was apparently the first photo she has posted in a while.  I only found out about it through the mutual friend (she unfriended me a month ago), so I don't think she intended for me to see it.

I should also mention that she went through her Instagram yesterday (it's public so I can see it) and deleted about six photos, all of them random ones, but one was of her feet and my feet next to each other that she captioned "Le Boyfriend" from about a year ago.  It's possible she just didn't like the photo, because she kept a photo of the two of us (with faces) from last November though, which I found interesting. 

This new photo guy was/is married according to my ex, as late as December (she specifically described the wife to me, so I believe the wife exists), so it's very possible that he's just a co-worker she hangs out with in a group.  He is also still friends with the wife on Facebook.  However, if he split up with the wife in the last couple of months, then maybe that would explain why my ex started pushing me away after we came back from NYC in January.  He's the security guard at her job, which means he spends 90% of his day standing around... .and talking to her.

My ex would regularly talk about him when she would talk about work - naturally, since they spent a lot of time talking when there was nothing to do.  Given her history of being unable to remain platonic with male friends, I asked about him several months ago.  She said she didn't find him attractive, that he wore "tight pants", had a weird mouth, a buzz cut, and was so dumb everyone's nickname for him was "Forrest Gump."  She also said he was religious and a Conservative, two things that would keep her from being close friends with ANYONE like that, much less a relationship.  And... .he was married to his high school sweetheart and has lived in the same rural town his whole life.  Given ALL of that (and that my ex wants to move to New York City), I didn't see him as a threat, especially after my ex said "He's just a dumb security guard who is fun to talk to, but the opposite of what I look for."

But after this most recent breakup, she started hanging out with co-workers (people she had previously complained about daily, but now were all awesome friends), and Forrest was one of them.  I saw his most recent Facebook profile photo, and he has grown his hair out and has a beard.  Coincidentally, that's what I look like, too, and the look my ex likes.  And now my ex is saying she is spending a weekend in a downtown hotel, presumably with him, perhaps?  She hasn't changed her relationship status or directly said anything is going on.  Again, all I have to go on is one goofy photo and one Facebook status about getting a hotel.  However, it looks eerily like she is trying to re-create the same experience of us going to NYC in December, just here in town.

If this guy is a new boyfriend, then he either split from his wife, or is cheating on her with my ex.  I'm guessing the former.  And given everything she has said about him in the past, I am dumbfounded that she would want to be with him.  I feel like this is more of having-the-relationship-feeling again for her, which I guess shouldn't be surprising.  I guess if there is anything I can feel good about, it's that she is with the guy who was so dumb, he had a nickname.  I can't imagine her tolerating him for long.  But, he seems to be the naive, nice, inexperienced romantically (remember, married to high school sweetheart) guy that is easy for my ex to sink her claws into.  He isn't going to challenge her, which is probably what she wants and needs right now.  I'm sure if I had a chance to ask her, she would say he's actually a really sweet, caring guy now that she knows him better.  Until she tires of him, and he'll be back to being dumb Forrest.

But remember, she broke up with me because she wants to move away to New York and have a career, and thought I couldn't/wouldn't go with her.  And now she's hooking up with a guy who is even MORE of an obstacle for that happening than I am.  So much for her reason having any kind of truth to it, huh?  I suppose he technically is more available to move than I am (no kids), but who would you rather move to the big city with?  The boyfriend of five years who has a degree and professional management position, or the security guard at work?

Last summer, she broke up with me (same reason, moving to NYC so we can't be together) and she hooked up with another co-worker, and they (she) made an impulsive decision to take a weekend trip to a neighboring state to see one of her friends.  That's when they slept together, and when they came back is when she reached out to me and wanted me back.  She said he was a dependent boy who had no ambition.  She said "it was just way too much time with him" and couldn't explain why she suddenly took a trip with him.  "It was a last minute decision!"  Something tells me this "staycation" idea came about only in the last few days. 

I'm wondering when the time will come where she has to be with this new guy in a setting that isn't artificially created - like spending a normal evening at home.  Everything seems to involve going out somewhere.  And if he just split from HIS wife, then how stable of a partnership do they really have?  And are they "together" for any of the right reasons?

[Suzn]

I'm sorry this hurts and feels insulting. I know exactly how you feel, I've been in your shoes.  

This new photo guy was/is married according to my ex, as late as December (she specifically described the wife to me, so I believe the wife exists)

If it is true that she is dating him and he's married this should give you an indication of how she sees the commitment to marriage. Pay attention to her values.

My ex would regularly talk about him when she would talk about work - naturally, since they spent a lot of time talking when there was nothing to do.  Given her history of being unable to remain platonic with male friends, I asked about him several months ago.  She said she didn't find him attractive, that he wore "tight pants", had a weird mouth, a buzz cut, and was so dumb everyone's nickname for him was "Forrest Gump."  She also said he was religious and a Conservative, two things that would keep her from being close friends with ANYONE like that, much less a relationship.  And... .he was married to his high school sweetheart and has lived in the same rural town his whole life.  Given ALL of that (and that my ex wants to move to New York City), I didn't see him as a threat, especially after my ex said "He's just a dumb security guard who is fun to talk to, but the opposite of what I look for."

She has gone to a lot of trouble to convince you or throw you off the track here, no? My ex did this often. Today I'm leery of someone going overboard to "prove" innocence. You not seeing him as a threat was likely exactly what she was trying to accomplish and it worked.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is a quotation from the 1602 play Hamlet by William Shakespeare. It has been used as a figure of speech, in various phrasings, to indicate that a person's overly frequent or vehement attempts to convince others of something have ironically helped to convince others that the opposite is true, by making the person look insincere and defensive.

I feel like this is more of having-the-relationship-feeling again for her, which I guess shouldn't be surprising.    Until she tires of him, and he'll be back to being dumb Forrest.

Yes, the idolization period is akin to having a new shiny toy and you're right she will tire of the new toy and he will at some point be devalued.

But remember, she broke up with me because she wants to move away to New York and have a career, and thought I couldn't/wouldn't go with her.  And now she's hooking up with a guy who is even MORE of an obstacle for that happening than I am.  

This is just what she's telling you, remember that.

So much for her reason having any kind of truth to it, huh?

It's good you're seeing this.  

I suppose he technically is more available to move than I am (no kids), but who would you rather move to the big city with?  The boyfriend of five years who has a degree and professional management position, or the security guard at work?

Reason doesn't work when you are dealing with a disordered individual. She does not think like you do.

Everything seems to involve going out somewhere.

THIS is who she is. This will not change. You picking up and moving with this young lady will not stop these impulses. No matter what YOU do you cannot change her or her behaviors.

And if he just split from HIS wife, then how stable of a partnership do they really have?  

There is no having a "stable" relationship with a borderline who is not in serious, diligent recovery.

And are they "together" for any of the right reasons?

4Years5Months this is a loaded question in terms of those who are in a relationship with a pwBPD. There are reasons behind why WE stay in such a dysfunctional relationship. At some point the goal is to turn such questions towards ourselves and start asking why do I want or need (better said) to be with this person who has clearly shown they do not value me?

After all you've shared about this woman's history, that you know of, do you think "the right reasons" are even attainable with this woman? For you or anyone else?

[4Years5Months]

If it is true that she is dating him and he's married this should give you an indication of how she sees the commitment to marriage. Pay attention to her values.

If I had to guess, I would say he is separated from his wife.  As unstable as my ex is, I can't see her getting into an infidelity situation - and especially make it public on Facebook like she has.  It is extremely important to her to appear in control and not a bad decision maker, and blatantly and publicly being a mistress isn't something she would want to be known for.  And I would also guess that the breakup of his marriage wasn't directly his fault, and she saw a soft, vulnerable side of him and the "Forrest Gump" persona became a sweet, kind guy, who is currently saying and doing all of the right things.

You not seeing him as a threat was likely exactly what she was trying to accomplish and it worked.

She was quite specific in her criticism of him, saying things that (I thought) would always keep her from seeing him that way (religious, dumb, married).  She is VERY judgmental of people.  If she likes you, consider yourself lucky.  What I think happened was she pushed me away again, and turned around and there he was, every day at work, and probably every night at the bar after work.  If he split up from his wife somewhere in there, bingo.  He's now sad and vulnerable, too.  New Mr. Shiny.  But really - if he just broke up with his wife... .has a double rebound relationship EVER turned out well?  My ex is a smart girl.  I know, I know, she's also disordered, but how can she look at the situation and think it's a good idea to be involved with him?  It screams desperation, that she doesn't want to wait.

Yes, the idolization period is akin to having a new shiny toy and you're right she will tire of the new toy and he will at some point be devalued.

Can we get to the devaluing point now?  Listen, I know it will eventually come.  I just hope I find out -or, and this is selfish- she reaches out to me.  Honest to god, I don't want to be in a relationship with her again.  The push and pull with NEVER stop.  But when I see her posting all of these "staycation" photos today, acting like she is having the time of her life, it hurts.  It hurts to see her "enjoying" things without me.  I guess, more than anything, I just want some sort of confirmation from her that SHE misses ME.  That she thinks of me.  And maybe, just maybe, that all of this behavior with Mr. Shiny is to fill the void that once had me in her life.  I want to know deep down that she isn't going to these places with him because she wants to be with him.

Everything seems to involve going out somewhere.

THIS is who she is. This will not change. You picking up and moving with this young lady will not stop these impulses. No matter what YOU do you cannot change her or her behaviors.

What I was trying to say was that everything she does with new Mr. Shiny involves going out.  This "staycation" is literally restaurant and bar hopping.  Is there something to them not, you know, hanging out at her apartment?  She and I did that.

Why is everything a night out somewhere?  What about spending time together where the place you visit isn't the focal point, but rather each other?

After all you've shared about this woman's history, that you know of, do you think "the right reasons" are even attainable with this woman? For you or anyone else?

If you asked me in this current moment of turmoil, I think those right reasons ARE attainable with her, if a guy is willing to walk on eggshells and let her lead and control the relationship.  This includes going along with all of her life goals, so get ready to move, guy.  If he is a servant to her needs at all times, it can work.  If there are inconsistencies, or she becomes upset with him, if he quickly accepts the blame, then he can be with her.  This new guy, if he is recently removed from a marriage to his high school sweetheart, is probably looking for love and acceptance, and will do anything to keep her.  And THAT is a recipe for success on her end.  A guy that will fawn all over her, spend an entire weekend with her, validate her and make her feel special, dumb ass security guard be dammed.

I was that guy.  And I felt like was that guy at the end.  But for some reason, she didn't see it that way, created reasons, and didn't want me to be that guy anymore.

I just want her to tell me she misses me, that she thinks of me, that she is still in love with me and thinks about me, and us.  And then, honest to god, she can go to 432 bars and restaurants with new guy.  I just want to know that she thinks about me.

[Suzn]

And maybe, just maybe, that all of this behavior with Mr. Shiny is to fill the void that once had me in her life. 

He is filling a void left by a parent just like you did my friend.

I know this all feels very personal, it's not. Her issues have nothing to do with you. It's difficult to wrap our minds around this disorder but this is what's going on if she is indeed BPD.

It doesn't matter how "good" he is to her, this disorder has a cycle. It's predictable. There are skills one has to master to be in a relationship a pwBPD in order not to trigger the disorder. You can read more about those in the lessons on the Staying board.

[4Years5Months]

Well, it was definitely confirmed she is dating this new guy over the weekend.  I was so troubled by it that I made an appointment and went to a therapist appointment yesterday.  I spent most of my session telling my story, but she did say that my ex exhibits strong BPD traits, so it was nice to hear a professional say that.  I go back again next week.  I'm focusing on filling the void she left behind - finding ways to spend my time NOT waiting for her to text, NOT hanging out with her.

I have actually been feeling quite good, but the one thing I am still struggling with is how she can be with him.  Not him instead of me, not even necessarily anyone at all (although that would still upset me) but him.  She repeatedly devalued him to me over and over.  Said he was fun to talk to, but an idiot, lacking culture, specific physical qualities she didn't like, and he is also religious and a Republican - two things she ADAMANTLY dislikes in a person.  I am flabbergasted as to how she would even go on a single date with him, much less a relationship.  I know people change, but my ex was constant in her beliefs and views of people and the world.  For her to choose a guy who is the opposite of all that (her words to me) blows my mind.  She wasn't lying or trying to throw me off when she said all of it, either.  I was almost daily, "(His name) said the dumbest thing today" - followed by devaluing.

I would have a hard time accepting her with anyone else, but I see NO redeeming qualities in this guy.  Either she is desperate, brainwashed, or has significantly changed her values.  I valued her so highly despite everything she put me through.  Now I feel like she is a different person.

Has anyone gone through this?  Remember, she was very specific about people.  This is a hugely odd move for her.

If she were to contact me in six months and say she made a huge mistake, I would be relieved beyond belief.  I don't want her back, I don't even want to be her friend - I just want to know that she realizes what she is doing with a guy like that.

[mitatsu]

You are already seeing the pattern your life will take if you carry on with her... .maybe time to look at your own 'people pleaser/co-dependant' issues too... .good luck but get out get yourself right then go enjoy life 

[4Years5Months]

I don't want her back.  I don't even want to be friends with her.  I just want to hear (or read a text/e-mail) from her that dating this new guy was a mistake.  It's like hearing she became a heroin addict.  It's completely against her to see someone like that.

[Mike-X]

Regardless of whether BPD is involved or not, seeing an ex out with a new person can be difficult. I can imagine how difficult this is for you, and I have found myself going over this mentally in my head from time-to-time, maybe preparing for the time when I see my ex with a new person. So I am sorry that you are going through this.

Why do you think a person living with BPD might decide (consciously or not) to date a guy that she devalued from day one? I have my own suspicions, but I am just wondering what your thoughts are.

Have you considered this... .given what you know about her and BPD, in general, do you think that she is likely to "seriously" admit that it was a mistake? Also, what are you thinking that this would do for you? And if she wouldn't and doesn't admit this, what would that do for you?

[4Years5Months]

Good questions.

I think it could be several factors.  The fact that it's happening at all is mind boggling to me, so it's hard to decipher what she may be thinking.  Here's what I would consider:

1:  She has picked an easy target.  She has admitted he's an idiot, but fun to be around.  He can be an adequate boyfriend, and do the things she wants to do.  I cannot fathom him as a long term relationship, but if she's getting that companionship and can still selfishly do whatever she wants to do with her life, he fits the role well.

2:  He is primarily there to keep her from thinking about her emotional pain - from being alone.  He was married.  I would bet he separated from his wife in January, about the time my ex started devaluing me again.  She saw a fresh option.  She attached herself to him to maintain that security and loving feeling.  He attached to her for the same reason.  I'm sure they "liked" each other, and probably had the "if I wasn't with my significant other, I'd be into you" thoughts, but it's what he is overall as a person that startles me.  He's absolutely not her type, other than being a guy who talks to her.  I guess that's enough.

3: The relationship is a product of working together and hanging out with the same work group.  You go out frequently with co-workers, you a both technically single, you are drawn to one another.  Her co-workers aren't as aware of her values and feelings, and naturally, they find themselves into each other.  I think he is rebounding just like she is.  The co-workers all go "awwwwww" at this new relationship.  They go out for the weekend and post photos that the co-workers all like.  My ex hates her job.  He's a good sounding board because he can relate and tell his own stories, too.  It's all a nice family.  But - and this is the big question - what do they have outside of work?  Can it stand on it's own?  Maybe the weekend together was an attempt to see if it could.

I think it's a combination of all three.  She doesn't want to be alone, she wants to do things and needs someone to do them with, and he's a good companion for the environment (work friends) that she has now.  I do not think it's a simple story of "guy and girl like each other and start dating."  It's deeply rooted in reboundville and in a place that isn't going to foster something significant.  One thing about her is how judgmental she is.  I can't imagine her dumbing down her conversations like she has to do with this guy.  I think the relationship is a product of hopelessness and wanting to have something other than going home each night and having no one. 

What are your thoughts?

[4Years5Months]

And do I think she would admit it as a mistake?  Only after the relationship is long gone.  Definitely not during it.  Two other guys in the last three years.  If you asked her about them, she paints them black and says they were both dependent boys.

[Suzn]

he is also religious and a Republican - two things she ADAMANTLY dislikes in a person. 

Did you share these views? No judgement, just curious for a reason.

[4Years5Months]

She and I?  Yes.  Almost exactly.

[Mike-X]

Good questions.

I think it could be several factors.  The fact that it's happening at all is mind boggling to me, so it's hard to decipher what she may be thinking.  Here's what I would consider:

1:  She has picked an easy target.  She has admitted he's an idiot, but fun to be around.  He can be an adequate boyfriend, and do the things she wants to do.  I cannot fathom him as a long term relationship, but if she's getting that companionship and can still selfishly do whatever she wants to do with her life, he fits the role well.

2:  He is primarily there to keep her from thinking about her emotional pain - from being alone.  He was married.  I would bet he separated from his wife in January, about the time my ex started devaluing me again.  She saw a fresh option.  She attached herself to him to maintain that security and loving feeling.  He attached to her for the same reason.  I'm sure they "liked" each other, and probably had the "if I wasn't with my significant other, I'd be into you" thoughts, but it's what he is overall as a person that startles me.  He's absolutely not her type, other than being a guy who talks to her.  I guess that's enough.

3: The relationship is a product of working together and hanging out with the same work group.  You go out frequently with co-workers, you a both technically single, you are drawn to one another.  Her co-workers aren't as aware of her values and feelings, and naturally, they find themselves into each other.  I think he is rebounding just like she is.  The co-workers all go "awwwwww" at this new relationship.  They go out for the weekend and post photos that the co-workers all like.  My ex hates her job.  He's a good sounding board because he can relate and tell his own stories, too.  It's all a nice family.  But - and this is the big question - what do they have outside of work?  Can it stand on it's own?  Maybe the weekend together was an attempt to see if it could.

I think it's a combination of all three.  She doesn't want to be alone, she wants to do things and needs someone to do them with, and he's a good companion for the environment (work friends) that she has now.  I do not think it's a simple story of "guy and girl like each other and start dating."  It's deeply rooted in reboundville and in a place that isn't going to foster something significant.  One thing about her is how judgmental she is.  I can't imagine her dumbing down her conversations like she has to do with this guy.  I think the relationship is a product of hopelessness and wanting to have something other than going home each night and having no one. 

What are your thoughts?

Either of the three could be true. I was thinking that she just was exposed to the reality of her fear of intimacy, so she could be filling the void left by the breakup with someone she could never imagine being with long term and someone who would never end things with her, leaving her feeling in control.

[Mike-X]

he is also religious and a Republican - two things she ADAMANTLY dislikes in a person.

Did you share these views? No judgement, just curious for a reason.

I thought my ex was agnostic, at best, but largely non-religious. However, just prior to the breakup she declared a few times in company that she was a Christian, and I saw where on FB she asked people to pray for this person or that person in need of God's help. Given the self/identity issues associated withBPD, I don't  even know anymore. :/

[Mike-X]

And do I think she would admit it as a mistake?  Only after the relationship is long gone.  :)efinitely not during it.  Two other guys in the last three years.  If you asked her about them, she paints them black and says they were both dependent boys.

It was just hard to get an apology out of my ex. She never said that she had made mistakes in life either. I think that apologizing and admitting to mistakes opened that painful low self-esteem wound and left her feeling truly vulnerable. She got close a couple of times, but she never explicitly said I was wrong and I am sorry. I hoped that the times that he came close were break-through moments for her and us. Hopefully they were for her, and she healed a little bit from her wounds from her past.