New Beginnings & Boundaries 5...

[MaroonLiquid]

Today was awesome on the field for my girls and youngest son.  We won 12-4!  My wife's daughter (my step-daughter) hit a double, a triple and a home run!  My oldest daughter struck out 5 and only allowed 2 earned runs, had a hit and my youngest (catcher) had a single and a double.  My son won 12-10 and had two hits and scored twice.  My wife came to his game which was before ours and stood next to me and talked while we watched until we had to be back for our game.  We are going to be celebrating my sons birthday as a family this evening with dinner and going to a trampoline park and let the kids jump.  

I have decided to act the way I always have and find a lawyer and respond when I do that next week.  I'm not going to bring strife into the situation and going to continue to be the steady one.  My mom told me I'm a coward for refusing to have anything to do with her because she filed.  I'm handling it the way I feel is right regardless how anyone else feels.  I'm not ignoring it, but at the same time, not going to be all up in arms about it or change because she chose to file.  It has been days since I have checked my wife's Facebook and I feel pretty good about myself.  Pretty great day so far!  I'm also choosing to remain on the "staying board" for the time being as this fits where I'm at knowing nothing is final.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[KateCat]

 

[formflier]

 

 

From me too!

[MaroonLiquid]

 

From me too!

Thanks Kate and FF!

We went to dinner and celebrated for my son and had a good time.  My wife was flirting with me at dinner and I was flirting with her.  When we got to the trampoline place, she was deep into her phone for about 20 minutes.  We talked occasionally and there was a moment while the kids were jumping when my wife and I were talking that my wife started to dysregulate.  I asked her if she would like to have dinner later this week and she said yes.  She told me the day that was best for her and I said, "Great, it's a date."  Wrong move on my part!   . She asked why I would say that considering how we ware on two different side of the spectrum.  I said, "That doesn't mean that we can't spend some time together."  She said, "You do realize I filed for divorce right?"  I said, "Yes, I got the papers.  I still love and adore you.  That hasn't changed."  She then started to project a bunch of stuff on to me about everything being my way and never compromising and she couldn't live that way.  I said, I hear what you're saying.  You have some very valid concerns and I won't live that way either.  I have come to terms with my shortcomings and continue to get help for them.  About that time, the kids walked up (which was good) and then we changed the subject back to softball and then we left.  She hugged the kids and then hugged me.  We are texting so that's good.

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .I was going to say that you are eventually going to have to acknowledge that your wife filed for divorce with her.

And I was going to suggest you wait 'till you've consulted with your lawyer on it. I hope you manage that going forward.

And... .I'd like to draw  your attention to one thing.

You were having a great time with your wife at dinner... .until you asked her for some time together... .which sent her toward dysregulation.

Does this seem like a consistent pattern to you? That when you get together with her as a family (with kids) thing, it can go well... .even if you end up alone with her while the kids are busy... .but when you ask for that, you get a bad reaction.

[MaroonLiquid]

Well... .I was going to say that you are eventually going to have to acknowledge that your wife filed for divorce with her.

And I was going to suggest you wait 'till you've consulted with your lawyer on it. I hope you manage that going forward.

And... .I'd like to draw  your attention to one thing.

You were having a great time with your wife at dinner... .until you asked her for some time together... .which sent her toward dysregulation.

Does this seem like a consistent pattern to you? That when you get together with her as a family (with kids) thing, it can go well... .even if you end up alone with her while the kids are busy... .but when you ask for that, you get a bad reaction.

She was fine with it and the "spending time together" until it spilled out, "Great it's a date."  That was the trigger.  She was fine with dinner until that.  But she calmed down with the validation and the kids walking up and it ended well.  You're right though and don't really understand why.  But I guess I can't worry about that.  We even talked about spending time with our son and she was good with that.

[Grey Kitty]

I get that calling it a "date" was the triggering aspect of it.

What I found interesting was that she was happy to be flirting with you, but triggered by planning a "date" with you, at least when it was named a date.

It is kinda weird that they seem so different for her... .but it seems like a trend to me.

[MaroonLiquid]

I get that calling it a "date" was the triggering aspect of it.

What I found interesting was that she was happy to be flirting with you, but triggered by planning a "date" with you, at least when it was named a date.

It is kinda weird that they seem so different for her... .but it seems like a trend to me.

What kind of trend?  What are you thinking?

[formflier]

 

Is there anything about the way she talks about dating and romantic things... .that shows a big difference in "friends with benefits" and "dating and/or lovers".

This is a stab in the dark... .

I'm seeing same trend... .and think we have missed part of the story because you probably didn't think it was important.

Another way of saying it... ."time seems ok... .romantic time... .not so much... "... .maybe

Thoughts?

[MaroonLiquid]

Is there anything about the way she talks about dating and romantic things... .that shows a big difference in "friends with benefits" and "dating and/or lovers".

This is a stab in the dark... .

I'm seeing same trend... .and think we have missed part of the story because you probably didn't think it was important.

Another way of saying it... ."time seems ok... .romantic time... .not so much... "... .maybe

Thoughts?

I'm not sure.  Before the last incident with the w/d, she said it feels like we are dating and wanted to know when I was going to take her out.  So if it wasn't about that, then why would she ask me that.  I don't really know.  When she dysregulates, she says she doesn't love me the same way, but then when she gets over it, she is back to how much she wants to work on things, the marriage and how much she loves me.  I think it goes back to backing herself into a corner so to speak with people regarding all that she has told them.  She can't look like a liar to people, vulnerable, or that she is "wrong".  I think "romantic time" brings up things that she doesn't like to deal with.  I believe my T was right.  It always leads back to her unhealthiness and she can't face it yet. That's why I told her that I got the papers but that I still love her and that doesn't change that.  One thing I forgot to mention was the night before she dysregulated this last time, I gave her the Valentines card that she wouldn't accept last month.  She read it and turned over and cried.  I just sat there and stroked her hair for a while and I told her once I loved her.  She said she knows I do.  A few minutes later she rolled over, looked at me and said she loved me too, continued to lay on me and then we were intimate.  It was one of the most passionate and intimate moments we've had in almost a year.  Why would she talk about a "future together" if that's not what she wanted.  The only other thing she has said, but she has said for several years is we sure know how to "make love" right, but we don't know how to fight fair.

[Grey Kitty]

This is the pattern I see... .

ML: Wife, lets spend some quality time together.

(If by text message)

Wife: <crickets>

(If on phone / face to face)

Wife: Dysregulation and/or rejection

You've asked to discuss significant issues... .you've asked for a dinner date... .you offered her a Valentine's gift... .


Efforts on your part to get her to work on the marriage, like asking her to go to MC got similar reactions as well. Different stimulus on your part, but same reaction.


I'm thinking that for HER, the act of making the commitment/choice... .or the request from you for this... .which she may see as a demand instead of a request... .or feel guilty about it... .or just not feel like it is 'safe' to refuse the request... .something there is important to her--in a way she cannot handle it.

Actually being emotionally or physically intimate with you is NOT the same thing, and doesn't trigger whatever this other aspect of it triggers in her.


What you can DO about this... .not much, 'tho if you see the same pattern... .my advice is STOP ASKING. Give yourself a limit of how often you ask her for intimacy/commitment (not involving kids). I'd suggest... .once a year. You've already exceeded your quota for 2015.

[KateCat]

I think this is really sensitive and astute observation from Grey Kitty.

At least two of you guys currently working so hard on your marriages here are of the "biblical marriage" conviction. And it seems that you--at least for one--are challenged to blaze very new territory in your efforts to honor your values. If anyone can do it, it could be you. 

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm thinking that for HER, the act of making the commitment/choice... .or the request from you for this... .which she may see as a demand instead of a request... .or feel guilty about it... .or just not feel like it is 'safe' to refuse the request... .something there is important to her--in a way she cannot handle it.

What do you mean by the last comment about something there being important to her in a way she can't handle it?  Sorry, lost me there.  She obviously feels safe to refuse the requests because she has.

Actually being emotionally or physically intimate with you is NOT the same thing, and doesn't trigger whatever this other aspect of it triggers in her.

I find that strange not knowing what it is that triggers her... .You would think being emotionally and physically intimate would be way more of a trigger than time together.  But I guess that begins to open up a can of worms for her where she starts to feel her decisions and becomes difficult.

What you can DO about this... .not much, 'tho if you see the same pattern... .my advice is STOP ASKING. Give yourself a limit of how often you ask her for intimacy/commitment (not involving kids). I'd suggest... .once a year. You've already exceeded your quota for 2015.

Good point.  Once a year though?  

I think this is really sensitive and astute observation from Grey Kitty.

At least two of you guys currently working so hard on your marriages here are of the "biblical marriage" conviction. And it seems that you--at least for one--are challenged to blaze very new territory in your efforts to honor your values. If anyone can do it, it could be you.  

I'm trying, as crazy as it sounds at times, while there is a divorce now "on the books".  My family thinks I'm nuts.  Am I?  When everyone tells me I am, I start to wonder.  I think she was shocked last night when she "threw out the comment" regarding filing and I didn't get into a back and forth.  You should have seen her face when I said, "That doesn't change the fact that I still love and adore you."  It was almost like I could see the fear and uncertainty in her eyes and that's when she started projecting and trying to convince herself that what she's done is the right thing. 

[123Phoebe]

I think she was shocked last night when she "threw out the comment" regarding filing and I didn't get into a back and forth.  You should have seen her face when I said, "That doesn't change the fact that I still love and adore you."  It was almost like I could see the fear and uncertainty in her eyes and that's when she started projecting and trying to convince herself that what she's done is the right thing. 

Threw out the comment? 

She straight out asked, "You do realize I filed for divorce right?"

She's taken your MacBook (think it was?), your car, she's filed for divorce... .  What is your bottom line in this relationship?  Do you have one?  Can she do anything at all and you'll still "love and adore her" and push for more dates?

[KateCat]

Yeah, don't push for more dates or pursue her with adoration. Keep eliminating ways she can punish you.

[MaroonLiquid]

Good point by both of you.  Understood.  I feel stupid now.   :'(.  Just trying to be the one that isn't strife filled and show that I want things to be better.  I won't ask anymore. 

[123Phoebe]

Maroon, I have done so many stupid things it's not even funny and I got over it, so did he!

Not being strife filled while wanting things to get better is very noble.  Things don't get better by giving into the disorder, or fighting the disorder.  The disorder remains!  Things get better by detaching from the disorder, while attaching to ourselves and knowing our limits.  Respecting them and theirs!  So many other things, too.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm thinking that for HER, the act of making the commitment/choice... .or the request from you for this... .which she may see as a demand instead of a request... .or feel guilty about it... .or just not feel like it is 'safe' to refuse the request... .something there is important to her--in a way she cannot handle it.

What do you mean by the last comment about something there being important to her in a way she can't handle it?  Sorry, lost me there.  She obviously feels safe to refuse the requests because she has.

Actually being emotionally or physically intimate with you is NOT the same thing, and doesn't trigger whatever this other aspect of it triggers in her.

I find that strange not knowing what it is that triggers her... .You would think being emotionally and physically intimate would be way more of a trigger than time together.  But I guess that begins to open up a can of worms for her where she starts to feel her decisions and becomes difficult.

When I say there is something 'important' about this for her, I mean that she has a powerful emotional reaction to something here. When I say she can't handle it, I mean she doesn't have the emotional capacity to deal with her feelings, whatever they are. So she goes to her 'normal' coping mechanism which lets her avoid those feelings... .wait for it... .she rejects you, and is now successfully distracted from whatever difficult feeling arose in her by blaming things on you/attacking you.

And no, you can't DO anything about this. You can't share this information with her and have a good result. She may figure it out in a week, a month, a year, or a decade. Or not. I'm supremely confident that you cannot get her to understand things; the best you can do is avoid triggering the process.

What I see as the trigger in her is NOT the time together... .or the physical/emotional time together.

The trigger I see is your REQUEST for the time together.

My suggestion is that if you want 'dates' with her, don't ask for them, and don't call them that.

Or at least wait 'till you have reason to expect 80~90% chance of success when you ask, instead of a 1~10% chance of success... .which will only happen when she has changed somehow.

My other suggestion is that if you want to stay involved with her kids, and want her to be involved with your kids... .but have given up on a romantic relationship with her... .stop asking her for 'dates'.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm trying, as crazy as it sounds at times, while there is a divorce now "on the books".  My family thinks I'm nuts.  Am I?  When everyone tells me I am, I start to wonder.

No, you aren't nuts. She is. You understand how filing for divorce fits into the "I hate you, don't leave me" part of the disorder. Your family doesn't understand it, and trying to explain it to them isn't a battle worth fighting today.

If your gut and your values say to keep working on your relationship... .keep doing it. It is your choice, not mine.

I'm supporting you in your choice, and trying to advise you in smarter/wiser ways to implement it. That's why you are posting this on the Staying board here--we DO understand.

[KateCat]

If your gut and your values say to keep working on your relationship... .keep doing it. It is your choice, not mine.

I'm supporting you in your choice, and trying to advise you in smarter/wiser ways to implement it. That's why you are posting this on the Staying board here--we DO understand.

Sounds like you are at that point in the hero's spiritual journey where he goes out into the wilderness all alone, and no others accompany him at this moment. Doesn't  mean it's the wrong path.

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon, I have done so many stupid things it's not even funny and I got over it, so did he!

Not being strife filled while wanting things to get better is very noble.  Things don't get better by giving into the disorder, or fighting the disorder.  The disorder remains!  Things get better by detaching from the disorder, while attaching to ourselves and knowing our limits.  Respecting them and theirs!  So many other things, too.

When I detached a couple of weeks ago and stepped back for a week, she invited me to the lake and stuff the weekend before she filed after the last dysregulation. 

I'm thinking that for HER, the act of making the commitment/choice... .or the request from you for this... .which she may see as a demand instead of a request... .or feel guilty about it... .or just not feel like it is 'safe' to refuse the request... .something there is important to her--in a way she cannot handle it.

What do you mean by the last comment about something there being important to her in a way she can't handle it?  Sorry, lost me there.  She obviously feels safe to refuse the requests because she has.

Actually being emotionally or physically intimate with you is NOT the same thing, and doesn't trigger whatever this other aspect of it triggers in her.

I find that strange not knowing what it is that triggers her... .You would think being emotionally and physically intimate would be way more of a trigger than time together.  But I guess that begins to open up a can of worms for her where she starts to feel her decisions and becomes difficult.

When I say there is something 'important' about this for her, I mean that she has a powerful emotional reaction to something here. When I say she can't handle it, I mean she doesn't have the emotional capacity to deal with her feelings, whatever they are. So she goes to her 'normal' coping mechanism which lets her avoid those feelings... .wait for it... .she rejects you, and is now successfully distracted from whatever difficult feeling arose in her by blaming things on you/attacking you.

And no, you can't DO anything about this. You can't share this information with her and have a good result. She may figure it out in a week, a month, a year, or a decade. Or not. I'm supremely confident that you cannot get her to understand things; the best you can do is avoid triggering the process.

What I see as the trigger in her is NOT the time together... .or the physical/emotional time together.

The trigger I see is your REQUEST for the time together.

My suggestion is that if you want 'dates' with her, don't ask for them, and don't call them that.

Or at least wait 'till you have reason to expect 80~90% chance of success when you ask, instead of a 1~10% chance of success... .which will only happen when she has changed somehow.

My other suggestion is that if you want to stay involved with her kids, and want her to be involved with your kids... .but have given up on a romantic relationship with her... .stop asking her for 'dates'.

Yeah, when I just asked to have dinner together she was fine, but then when I said the dreaded word "date", that's when she started to dysregulate.

I'm supporting you in your choice, and trying to advise you in smarter/wiser ways to implement it. That's why you are posting this on the Staying board here--we DO understand.

I know and I do appreciate all of you.

Sounds like you are at that point in the hero's spiritual journey where he goes out into the wilderness all alone, and no others accompany him at this moment. Doesn't  mean it's the wrong path.

Yeah, it just sucks when you feel like you have no support.

[KateCat]

It must be a really lonely feeling. Even in this support community, it seems to me that your wife's behaviors stand out as a little unusual and puzzling.

[MaroonLiquid]

It must be a really lonely feeling. Even in this support community, it seems to me that your wife's behaviors stand out as a little unusual and puzzling.

Yeah... .Tell me about it... .Unless someone has a more plausible explanation, the only thing that makes sense is control... .

[formflier]

Good point by both of you.  Understood.  I feel stupid now.   :'(.  Just trying to be the one that isn't strife filled and show that I want things to be better.  I won't ask anymore. 

I'm actually a fan of you expressing your love and adoration... .in that moment that she asked or confirmed that you know she filed for divorce.

If there was ever a moment to "be clear"... .that was it.  You were very clear.

The issue is clearly back in her court... .she... .most likely... .will deal with it in a dysfunctional way... .but that is her issue and not yours.

If she ever again makes a declarative statment... .or asks about divorce... .IMO... you have two options.  If it's been a while... .weeks I think would suffice... .then I would clearly state the same thing you did. 

If it's been a couple hours... .it's most likely a baiting tactic to get you to argue... .and you can either be silent... or say you have nothing further to add... .

I'm firmly in the camp with the others... .that you should still pursue time with her... .but... .   DROP THE DATE LABEL

Last though for now... .this is really curious behavior... .I think you focus on the good part... which is you can spend time together without fighting. 

Hang in there!   

[Grey Kitty]

I'm firmly in the camp with the others... .that you should still pursue time with her... .but... .   DROP THE DATE LABEL

I don't know what "others" are saying... .but I've been strongly suggesting not to PURSUE time with her (sans kids). Don't ask for it. Don't try to schedule it. Don't think of pressuring her for it.

What I would encourage is taking advantage of those times when they appear and your wife is receptive to them. If you are with the kids in her house and she invites you to stay longer... .or if you are with the kids, but suddenly they are all off bouncing on the trampolines, etc.

And if your wife actually asks you for some private time, that is a different thing entirely.

[formflier]

 

Yes... .important nuance. 

One question... was your wife fine with going out to dinner... .but not calling it a date?

I know that we are splitting hairs here... but... .I think it's important to find the "real" trigger... .because there is a pattern.

I was under the impression the pattern was "calling it" a date... .if it is more accurate that the pattern is pursue private time and the dysregs... .then that is what it is.

[123Phoebe]

Yes... .important nuance. 

One question... was your wife fine with going out to dinner... .but not calling it a date?

I know that we are splitting hairs here... but... .I think it's important to find the "real" trigger... .because there is a pattern.

I was under the impression the pattern was "calling it" a date... .if it is more accurate that the pattern is pursue private time and the dysregs... .then that is what it is.

For all we know, "dinner" to her might've meant time to talk over divorce stuff.  If that's what she had on her mind, then a "date" wouldn't really seem appropriate.

Maroon, your wife seems to flip-flop-fast from idealization/devaluation, push/pull, black & white thinking, abandonment/engulfment fears.

Unless someone has a more plausible explanation, the only thing that makes sense is control... .

Or lack of control over her own emotions, which have nothing to do with you personally, only that you're the one she sees as triggering her up.

[formflier]

Maroon, your wife seems to flip-flop-fast from idealization/devaluation, push/pull, black & white thinking, abandonment/engulfment fears.

So... .I agree.  So... .in on instance a card is presented... .and for some reason she flopped to the "dark side" and rejected.

Next time the card is presented... .a very intimate... romantic night.

You would think that a card like that is "always" black... .but it obviously is not. 

So... .if we agree that there is a rapid cycling... .how does that affect the "tactics" that Maroon uses.

Is there an option to keep things "bland" for a while... .to try and not force a cycle?

[MaroonLiquid]

Yes... .important nuance. 

One question... was your wife fine with going out to dinner... .but not calling it a date?

I know that we are splitting hairs here... but... .I think it's important to find the "real" trigger... .because there is a pattern.

I was under the impression the pattern was "calling it" a date... .if it is more accurate that the pattern is pursue private time and the dysregs... .then that is what it is.

For all we know, "dinner" to her might've meant time to talk over divorce stuff.  If that's what she had on her mind, then a "date" wouldn't really seem appropriate.

Maroon, your wife seems to flip-flop-fast from idealization/devaluation, push/pull, black & white thinking, abandonment/engulfment fears.

Unless someone has a more plausible explanation, the only thing that makes sense is control... .

Or lack of control over her own emotions, which have nothing to do with you personally, only that you're the one she sees as triggering her up.

Pheebs!  I think you are on to something there.  I noticed our daughter saying something to one of my kids that she "only gets "mad" when dad is here".  She even told me the kids said that about two months ago.  This makes sense!

[123Phoebe]

So... .if we agree that there is a rapid cycling... .how does that affect the "tactics" that Maroon uses.

Is there an option to keep things "bland" for a while... .to try and not force a cycle?

I really don't like to think in terms of "tactics", it sounds controlling   I have no control over what my guy does or what Maroon's wife does or doesn't do.

If my guy told me that he wanted to end the relationship, I would be taken aback.  I would tell him (in so many words) that I am taken aback and didn't see it coming, that I wish it weren't so.  Is there something he feels we could work on together in order to stay?  No?  Okay, hmmm... .  Huh.  I will not stand in the way of him pursuing what's important in his life.  If leaving me is what will make him feel happy, then that's the way it goes and I'd have to accept it.  I might not like it, but detachment would begin.  I cannot be in a relationship with someone who threatens to end it over and over again.