Is she hurting too?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

No. I dont believe she is. Im probably not even a thought unless she sees me at my sons game.

The differences seem to come up often on the boards. I am wondering if the differences have to do with conscious vs unconscious influences and the defense mechanisms that the former SOs have available?

[Mike-X]

No. I dont believe she is. Im probably not even a thought unless she sees me at my sons game.

The differences seem to come up often on the boards. I am wondering if the differences have to do with conscious vs unconscious influences and the defense mechanisms that the former SOs have available?

[SWLSR]

Dagwood they do hurt.  But not for us and because of us.  They hurt for something thatvis buried deep in there past.  something they will never come to retms with.  whatever it is.  We are pawns in there game.  they may have some regret but they wont admit it.  It is not an easy thing for us to accept.

I don't think that calling ourselves 'pawns in their game' is a very productive nor healthy way to think about the situations that we got ourselves into. We must examine ourselves more thoroughly, because statements like that completely negate the fact that we did have power then, and we have it now.

To a degree, yes, we were used. But we also certainly accepted behaviors that were unacceptable, and in that way our BPDex's were pawns in our own game in which the end goal was finding approval and external sources of love to fill voids deep within ourselves.

It is ok if they can't admit their regret. That isn't our focus, or at least it shouldn't be. The best we can do is concentrate on forgiving ourselves, and then eventually them. I think that once we reach both types of acceptance on those fronts, we're pretty solid. Takes a ton of time though, and a hell of a lot of thinking.

Valet

I agree with some of what you are saying, but you may be sending the wrong message to people here.  To me it reminds me of someone telling a rape victim they are partly to blame for there rape because they dressed like they wanted.  Most nons do need to learn to set healthy boundaries but that comes later I am four years out of my BPD marriage,  I know a few things now, but when this first happened I needed to understand this was not my fault.  Yes I could have made better choices and I need to learn to do that but that comes later.  BPD people are emotional rapist they are evil people who take advantage of good folks.  And if you have no idea what BPD is you are ripe for there picking if they can find you.  

[Mike-X]

Dagwood they do hurt.  But not for us and because of us.  They hurt for something thatvis buried deep in there past.  something they will never come to retms with.  whatever it is.  We are pawns in there game.  they may have some regret but they wont admit it.  It is not an easy thing for us to accept.

I don't think that calling ourselves 'pawns in their game' is a very productive nor healthy way to think about the situations that we got ourselves into. We must examine ourselves more thoroughly, because statements like that completely negate the fact that we did have power then, and we have it now.

To a degree, yes, we were used. But we also certainly accepted behaviors that were unacceptable, and in that way our BPDex's were pawns in our own game in which the end goal was finding approval and external sources of love to fill voids deep within ourselves.

It is ok if they can't admit their regret. That isn't our focus, or at least it shouldn't be. The best we can do is concentrate on forgiving ourselves, and then eventually them. I think that once we reach both types of acceptance on those fronts, we're pretty solid. Takes a ton of time though, and a hell of a lot of thinking.

I certainly understand the sentiment of feeling like a pawn in a game, and I did feel that way at times. Unfortunately, I don't think that it is a "game" that people with BPD are playing. They are at the mercy of their disorder. I would imagine that many living with BPD would say that they are "pawns in the game". My uGF used to accuse me of being the manipulator. My sense of things was that that was her "true" reality. All of the false accusations and her reactions were responses to what she saw as "reality".


I think that the diagnostic symptoms give some insight into the "reality" distortions that someone living with BPD might experience:

1.    frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. the sense of abandonment is "real" to the pwBPD; regardless of how the SO feels about the pwBPD, what the SO says and does, etc.

2.    a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. again, the "reality" to the pwBPD is that the SO is "white", perfect and can do no wrong, and then that reality is changed to the SO being "black"

3.    identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self. again, the non probably sees the pwBPD as has having a stable self-image, something the non likes about the pwBPD; however, the "reality" to the pwBPD is that they don't have a sense of self; they don't know "who" they are; regardless of whether there actions show otherwise; if they don't have insight about the sense of self, then the "reality" might be that "something is missing"

4.    impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). the pwBPD might not view their actions as impulsive, lacking insight or justifying via defense mechanisms; but their "reality" is different from the reality of others viewing these behaviors

5.    recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior the "reality" is that this will "fix" things

6.    affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days). the altered "reality" can affect mood (e.g., feeling like an SO is cheating, unloving, etc. can lead to anxiety and depression); also defense mechanisms can come into play here to displace the cause of anxiety, depression, etc. from the self to some external source (e.g., I feel depressed and it must be due to something my SO has done to me) in order to avoid opening the wounds and dealing the the core issue of low self-esteem

7.    chronic feelings of emptiness similar to identity disturbance, regardless of what the pwBPD is showing outwardly (e.g., friendliness, life of the party, sexual promiscuity, etc.), their "reality" inside is that something is missing and/or they are empty; additionally similar to mood reactivity, defense mechanisms altering "reality" may come into play to displace the source of this emptiness

8.    inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights) in the "reality" of the pwBPD, the reason for the anger is often not inappropriate, and pwBPD might not even see the anger as over-the-top (at least not in the moment) depending on what they were exposed to and/or what they believe they are reaction to

9.    transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms clearly issues with an altered "reality"; but the fear can be very "real" to the pwBPD

[Mike-X]

I agree with some of what you are saying, but you may be sending the wrong message to people here.  To me it reminds me of someone telling a rape victim they are partly to blame for there rape because they dressed like they wanted.  Most nons do need to learn to set healthy boundaries but that comes later I am four years out of my BPD marriage,  I know a few things now, but when this first happened I needed to understand this was not my fault.  Yes I could have made better choices and I need to learn to do that but that comes later.  BPD people are emotional rapist they are evil people who take advantage of good folks.  And if you have no idea what BPD is you are ripe for there picking if they can find you.  

Can you please clarify the term "emotional rapist"? I have never heard it before, and I am not following the analogy.

[SWLSR]

I agree with some of what you are saying, but you may be sending the wrong message to people here.  To me it reminds me of someone telling a rape victim they are partly to blame for there rape because they dressed like they wanted.  Most nons do need to learn to set healthy boundaries but that comes later I am four years out of my BPD marriage,  I know a few things now, but when this first happened I needed to understand this was not my fault.  Yes I could have made better choices and I need to learn to do that but that comes later.  BPD people are emotional rapist they are evil people who take advantage of good folks.  And if you have no idea what BPD is you are ripe for there picking if they can find you.  

Can you please clarify the term "emotional rapist"? I have never heard it before, and I am not following the analogy.

It just kind of popped into my head.  But rape is not a sexual act its a violent act.  The emotional violence they do to us is maybe similar.  I am not trying to make light of rape victims but I have heard people say if she would not have been drunk or if she would not have dressed like a s**t this would not have happened.  People really say that and it bothers me.  When anyone says that what a BPD did to us was our fault it is just as cruel.   

[shatterd]

Thank you evryone for helping me threw this,   to update and answer my own topic here,  YES she is hurting to, about alot things of course.  But my BPDex is hurting over us aswell tho she remains some what strong, she seems to be realizing hope mayb lost with us finally. I got some form of something a few mins ago about how her crazzyness drove me away and hurt our kids   so i askd her   are you appoligizeng? Haha hmm the faint no i got back, made me chuckle, she has already given up on theopy, 3weeks in. I was sorry to here that  i was hopeing she would do it this time. So anyways blah blah the kids this the kids that.We said our goodbeys and she did leave the door open   ya nasty ol lady of mine,, daddy is fine with oucha  :'(   :'(        

[valet]

Dagwood they do hurt.  But not for us and because of us.  They hurt for something thatvis buried deep in there past.  something they will never come to retms with.  whatever it is.  We are pawns in there game.  they may have some regret but they wont admit it.  It is not an easy thing for us to accept.

I don't think that calling ourselves 'pawns in their game' is a very productive nor healthy way to think about the situations that we got ourselves into. We must examine ourselves more thoroughly, because statements like that completely negate the fact that we did have power then, and we have it now.

To a degree, yes, we were used. But we also certainly accepted behaviors that were unacceptable, and in that way our BPDex's were pawns in our own game in which the end goal was finding approval and external sources of love to fill voids deep within ourselves.

It is ok if they can't admit their regret. That isn't our focus, or at least it shouldn't be. The best we can do is concentrate on forgiving ourselves, and then eventually them. I think that once we reach both types of acceptance on those fronts, we're pretty solid. Takes a ton of time though, and a hell of a lot of thinking.

Valet

I agree with some of what you are saying, but you may be sending the wrong message to people here.  To me it reminds me of someone telling a rape victim they are partly to blame for there rape because they dressed like they wanted.  Most nons do need to learn to set healthy boundaries but that comes later I am four years out of my BPD marriage,  I know a few things now, but when this first happened I needed to understand this was not my fault.  Yes I could have made better choices and I need to learn to do that but that comes later.  BPD people are emotional rapist they are evil people who take advantage of good folks.  And if you have no idea what BPD is you are ripe for there picking if they can find you.  

Hey now, I'm not saying that their behaviors are excusable, or that we were the primary provocation for them, only that we did play our part by being abused and staying. This is a lesson to move forward with, in hindsight. What I said may be taken as victim blaming, and I agree that I didn't choose the proper wording for my opinion.

What I want to make clear now though, is that I am not blaming anyone here. I feel that blame comes from anger and insecurities that we have yet to fully understand and realize. I'm just not in support of being angry at someone for experiencing irrational emotions that they can't control, and I think statements like 'emotional rapist they are evil people who take advantage of good folks' or 'we are pawns in their game' that make BPDs into some weird hyper-rationalized emotional predator will only hold people that think them and believe in them back from true acceptance of who are exBPDs are as people—it ultimately will make our exs unable to be forgiven, which is one of the most unjust and unfair things we can do as good human beings. Everyone should be capable of being forgiven.

They don't want their relationships to end. They just have flawed mechanisms for being in them. We take that knowledge and assess the situation from there.

[Callingallangels]

I love your comment above about over-reacting to your own empathy.  I think there may be a really healing poem in there somewhere.  Thanks for sharing!

[Fr4nz]

Hey now, I'm not saying that their behaviors are excusable, or that we were the primary provocation for them, only that we did play our part by being abused and staying. This is a lesson to move forward with, in hindsight. What I said may be taken as victim blaming, and I agree that I didn't choose the proper wording for my opinion.

What I want to make clear now though, is that I am not blaming anyone here. I feel that blame comes from anger and insecurities that we have yet to fully understand and realize. I'm just not in support of being angry at someone for experiencing irrational emotions that they can't control, and I think statements like 'emotional rapist they are evil people who take advantage of good folks' or 'we are pawns in their game' that make BPDs into some weird hyper-rationalized emotional predator will only hold people that think them and believe in them back from true acceptance of who are exBPDs are as people—it ultimately will make our exs unable to be forgiven, which is one of the most unjust and unfair things we can do as good human beings. Everyone should be capable of being forgiven.

They don't want their relationships to end. They just have flawed mechanisms for being in them. We take that knowledge and assess the situation from there.

Great comment valet, probably one of the wisest i've read in the forum so far.

[SWLSR]

Valet

i think your last comment was very good lets call a truce

[valet]

 

Valet

i think your last comment was very good lets call a truce