Will the manipulation/lies ever stop?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is some (probably irrational) fear that I have. That she will meet someone else and stop with the lies. Tell him the truth and become an honest person. I know that I would probably have put up with her if it wasn't for all the lies and infidelity. Can they decide to stop lying?

[LonelyChild]

This is some (probably irrational) fear that I have. That she will meet someone else and stop with the lies. Tell him the truth and become an honest person. I know that I would probably have put up with her if it wasn't for all the lies and infidelity. Can they decide to stop lying?

[jhkbuzz]

I would say the same about my ex - I could have dealt a lot of other stuff - in fact, I did - but the lying and infidelities were a dealbreaker.

You are engaged in some magical thinking here, my friend.  No, your ex will not suddenly become honest and faithful with someone new.  They are impulsive and disordered and they will continue to be impulsive and disordered moving forward.

[Heldfast]

Stop living with that fear, they aren't changing without therapy. If someone else helps her get it, great. If not, they're just the next victim in the lineup.

[FannyB]

I hope  my ex meets someone who ticks all her boxes and makes her happy longer term - but I'm willing to bet my house she won't. I reckon she's had at least 10 relationships - and ended every one, and that's repetitive/compulsive behaviour that you can't just switch off.   If she makes it up the aisle with 'Mr Right' he will soon assume the mantle of 'Mr Wrong' and find himself trapped in a loveless marriage with a woman whose endless needs will never be met.  I had the best of her - the worst is yet to come and I certainly don't want that 'pleasure'! 

[apollotech]

She won't wake up and be a different person one day. Her maladapted defense mechanisms/emotional immaturity/fractured self/etc. is her. Those things just don't one day go away. Even therapy is not a cure; it is only a treatment.

[Bassoutcast]

As my ex's T once told her - "It's only going to get worse if you won't treat this. You're heading on the highway for a mentally ill asylum". (In kinder words, though).

They're not going to change unless they either meet a person who's submissive enough to let their own "self" down as much as to put up with that BS (and even that might not be "forever" or they go into what I can only assume is YEARS of therapy in order to help cure the disorder.

Deep down you know it's the only reasonable outcome. Stay strong!

[zundertowz]

She will never get better... .I wish all I had to deal with was lies and infedility, heck ive dealt with that with that with non BPDs... .Try dealing with getting slashed, told you were gonna get murdered in your sleep, false abuse allegations, getting spit on and attacked... .geez what the heck was I thinking?

[Mutt]

This is some (probably irrational) fear that I have. That she will meet someone else and stop with the lies. Tell him the truth and become an honest person. I know that I would probably have put up with her if it wasn't for all the lies and infidelity. Can they decide to stop lying?

A relationship with someone that suffers from BPD is not going to "cure or fix" the disorder; our love is not above the disorder. My ex often dissociated ( lied ) and altered reality to protect from experiencing intense emotion. It's how she copes.

[Invictus01]

From what I have read, a personality disordered individual needs 5+ years of therapy to show any signs of progress, if any signs at all. That's if that person goes into therapy at all. If you are dealing with a highly functioning PD person, chances of him/her going into therapy are rather slim. So, stop living in that fear, there is nobody out there besides a therapist who can change her.

[LonelyChild]

She will never get better... .I wish all I had to deal with was lies and infedility, heck ive dealt with that with that with non BPDs... .Try dealing with getting slashed, told you were gonna get murdered in your sleep, false abuse allegations, getting spit on and attacked... .geez what the heck was I thinking?

You should read my first post. I put up with insane crap... .I could live with most of it. But not the lies and infidelities.

[zundertowz]

She will never get better... .I wish all I had to deal with was lies and infedility, heck ive dealt with that with that with non BPDs... .Try dealing with getting slashed, told you were gonna get murdered in your sleep, false abuse allegations, getting spit on and attacked... .geez what the heck was I thinking?

You should read my first post. I put up with insane crap... .I could live with most of it. But not the lies and infidelities.

Lies and infedelities is something that is not just common in BPDs tho... .the rest of the voilent mental behaviour is what haunts me to this day... .nearly drove me to commit suicide.  Cheating I can at least make some sort of sense of... .I will never understand or come to terms with the vicious nature of the relationship I was just in less than 2 months ago and why she would want to ruin my life when she apparently didnt wanna be with me anyway... .this is someone I lived with for 3 years and supported her 2 kids... .

[runningup]

Sounds so similar to my situation Zunder... .Im sorry you are struggling, I can empathise greatly. I found with my XBPD that she has got back into drugs, reconnected with a lot of male friends that her P told her to removed because of her boundary issues etc, she is in a relationship now with the guy she cheated on me with, he isnt at all that bright so the lies and past stories she will have learnt to hide them this time, and and cheating that she does she will have better tools to not get caught this time around and given old mates not to bright he will not suspect anything.

They don't change, what shes done to me, shes done to many other men, nothing is ever her fault and there is never any remorse. She is quickly turning into the person she was when I started my relationship with her, and helped her out of as she didnt want to be that person, yet its her default pattern and what she has gone back to.

[Skip]

This is some (probably irrational) fear that I have. That she will meet someone else and stop with the lies. Tell him the truth and become an honest person. I know that I would probably have put up with her if it wasn't for all the lies and infidelity. Can they decide to stop lying?

Your fear is that someone else will be able to have a decent relationship with her.  Right?

It feels better thinking she is an abject failure - that anyone with BPD traits is an abject failure. A lot if your posts are very black and white.

I just came across this on Staying:

BPD/anything r/s will never work.

The important thing to see her is that this is how you are coping - you are painting her, BPD, BPD anything, and BPD almost as black - yourself as the other color.

But you know inside that its not true - how could such and absolute be true - and now you having second thoughts.

Unusual?  No, lots of people do it.  Healthy?  I don't know, but certainly circuitous - whatever much you commit to this thinking will need to be undone before you have peace.

What really matter is that the relationship did not work for the two of you.  The infidelity and her reaction to it was more than you wanted to deal with. 

It will help not to generalize this to her entire personality and 19 million other people - take it down to the root.  The infidelity was a deal breaker.  You have values (good values).  You don't cheat.  You want a life without cheating.  This is your boundary.

Now some couple survive adultery - but the person cheating has to want that really badly.

[RedDove]

I do not believe they have the capacity to self reflect and change in order to stop lying and cheating. With my ex BPDbf the lying and cheating were hard wired coping mechanisms. They were built and developed as coping mechanisms as a result of a very difficult childhood.

When he raged and painted me black, he dissociated. This was his coping mechanism to protect himself from the shame, anger and pain. This then allowed him to tell me I was the love of his life and the perfect woman whilst at the same time jumping right into bed with the OW. I don't think he saw it as cheating or lying. Its a built in coping mechanism and lack of impulse control to get "his" needs met.

I ended my encounter with him a year ago. Within 2 months he attempted a recycle. He was still with the OW/replacement. I was blown away at the time. How could he think he could just contact me out of the blue after betraying my loyalty and trust? I found the answers here thanks tp BPD family and in reading many books. He dissociated and likely changed our story to protect him from the painful feelings he felt at the time.

It's a very sad disorder. Sometimes I wish I could dissociate and rewrite things. But you know what? I'd never want to live that way. No accountability, no morals, no integrity, selfish behavior. He lacks the cognitive ability to take responsibilty and learn from past mistakes. So he keeps repeating the fairy tale illusion of the "perfect" woman over and over again.

The manipulation and lies are built in and ingrained coping mechanisms. Only years of therapy "might" help.

[Infared]

This is some (probably irrational) fear that I have. That she will meet someone else and stop with the lies. Tell him the truth and become an honest person. I know that I would probably have put up with her if it wasn't for all the lies and infidelity. Can they decide to stop lying?

A relationship with someone that suffers from BPD is not going to "cure or fix" the disorder; our love is not above the disorder. My ex often dissociated ( lied ) and altered reality to protect from experiencing intense emotion. It's how she copes.

Hmmm... .good point, Mutt... .the altering of reality REALLY hurt and perplexed me... .but of course... .if she changed what actually happened, she doesn't have to face her poor behavior... .

WOW... .that is a sick human being. Not possible to work-thru anything with them in any normal adult manner... .it's so frustrating and sad I guess.

[LonelyChild]

This is some (probably irrational) fear that I have. That she will meet someone else and stop with the lies. Tell him the truth and become an honest person. I know that I would probably have put up with her if it wasn't for all the lies and infidelity. Can they decide to stop lying?

A relationship with someone that suffers from BPD is not going to "cure or fix" the disorder; our love is not above the disorder. My ex often dissociated ( lied ) and altered reality to protect from experiencing intense emotion. It's how she copes.

Hmmm... .good point, Mutt... .the altering of reality REALLY hurt and perplexed me... .but of course... .if she changed what actually happened, she doesn't have to face her poor behavior... .

WOW... .that is a sick human being. Not possible to work-thru anything with them in any normal adult manner... .it's so frustrating and sad I guess.

I wonder though, do they KNOW that they are lying? Do they ever think "oh yeah, he bought into that lie?" Or do they not know that they are distorting everything?

[Infared]

This is some (probably irrational) fear that I have. That she will meet someone else and stop with the lies. Tell him the truth and become an honest person. I know that I would probably have put up with her if it wasn't for all the lies and infidelity. Can they decide to stop lying?

A relationship with someone that suffers from BPD is not going to "cure or fix" the disorder; our love is not above the disorder. My ex often dissociated ( lied ) and altered reality to protect from experiencing intense emotion. It's how she copes.

Hmmm... .good point, Mutt... .the altering of reality REALLY hurt and perplexed me... .but of course... .if she changed what actually happened, she doesn't have to face her poor behavior... .

WOW... .that is a sick human being. Not possible to work-thru anything with them in any normal adult manner... .it's so frustrating and sad I guess.

I wonder though, do they KNOW that they are lying? Do they ever think "oh yeah, he bought into that lie?" Or do they not know that they are distorting everything?

I could never figure that out. ... .but what I did realize is that in the end, that just did not matter.  I was trying to have a relationship with someone who changed facts to benefit themselves and would actually expect me to interact with them.  It just did not matter if they were doing it on purpose, or they were totally delusional. I needed to walk away from the insanity and save ME!. She had a new shiny knight... .let them figure that all out.  

[JayApril]

From what I have read, a personality disordered individual needs 5+ years of therapy to show any signs of progress, if any signs at all. That's if that person goes into therapy at all. If you are dealing with a highly functioning PD person, chances of him/her going into therapy are rather slim. So, stop living in that fear, there is nobody out there besides a therapist who can change her.

Wow five years? Where did you read that if you dont mind me asking? I have researched treatment that is said to work but, something in me feels as though it does not.

[JayApril]

This is some (probably irrational) fear that I have. That she will meet someone else and stop with the lies. Tell him the truth and become an honest person. I know that I would probably have put up with her if it wasn't for all the lies and infidelity. Can they decide to stop lying?

A relationship with someone that suffers from BPD is not going to "cure or fix" the disorder; our love is not above the disorder. My ex often dissociated ( lied ) and altered reality to protect from experiencing intense emotion. It's how she copes.

Hmmm... .good point, Mutt... .the altering of reality REALLY hurt and perplexed me... .but of course... .if she changed what actually happened, she doesn't have to face her poor behavior... .

WOW... .that is a sick human being. Not possible to work-thru anything with them in any normal adult manner... .it's so frustrating and sad I guess.

I wonder though, do they KNOW that they are lying? Do they ever think "oh yeah, he bought into that lie?" Or do they not know that they are distorting everything?

Often I have wondered that as well. I have even confronted my XBPD with his behavior w/ his brother & a friend of ours. He just shut down and said nothing. I think at some degree they do know they are lying, but refuse to admit it.

[LonelyChild]

... .

What makes it so weird is that they cannot change things they know about. I have certain habits as well, as we ALL do. But if someone were to point mine out, I could work on them and change them.

They don't seem to be able to to change through introspection our conscious effort. They can BARELY change through Pavlovian methods. Which kind of make them seem like bodies without souls - they are just autonomous beings trying to mirror behavior around them. Like parrots imitate sounds, kind of.

Does this sound too harsh? I don't mean it in a harsh way, it's just that they seem kind of "empty" on the in side.

In the end, the manipulation is probably a way for the false self to manipulate the true self. And everyone around them just happen to be manipulated by their false self as well. And their false self is trapping their true self inside with the lies etc.

[JayApril]

... .

What makes it so weird is that they cannot change things they know about. I have certain habits as well, as we ALL do. But if someone were to point mine out, I could work on them and change them.

They don't seem to be able to to change through introspection our conscious effort. They can BARELY change through Pavlovian methods. Which kind of make them seem like bodies without souls - they are just autonomous beings trying to mirror behavior around them. Like parrots imitate sounds, kind of.

Does this sound too harsh? I don't mean it in a harsh way, it's just that they seem kind of "empty" on the in side.

In the end, the manipulation is probably a way for the false self to manipulate the true self. And everyone around them just happen to be manipulated by their false self as well. And their false self is trapping their true self inside with the lies etc.

No you are not being harsh. I have thought more harsh than that. Often I thought... .(What is the point of them, if all they can do is lie & copy. But never be fixed?). But, yes they seem incredibly empty inside, with no change. Even if they are given constructive criticism, its like their brains just dont have the ability to change.

[Recooperating]

... .

What makes it so weird is that they cannot change things they know about. I have certain habits as well, as we ALL do. But if someone were to point mine out, I could work on them and change them.

They don't seem to be able to to change through introspection our conscious effort. They can BARELY change through Pavlovian methods. Which kind of make them seem like bodies without souls - they are just autonomous beings trying to mirror behavior around them. Like parrots imitate sounds, kind of.

Does this sound too harsh? I don't mean it in a harsh way, it's just that they seem kind of "empty" on the in side.

In the end, the manipulation is probably a way for the false self to manipulate the true self. And everyone around them just happen to be manipulated by their false self as well. And their false self is trapping their true self inside with the lies etc.

No you are not being harsh. I have thought more harsh than that. Often I thought... .(What is the point of them, if all they can do is lie & copy. But never be fixed?). But, yes they seem incredibly empty inside, with no change. Even if they are given constructive criticism, its like their brains just dont have the ability to change.

The most confusing part for me was that sometimes he would see the error of his ways and we would have long talks about it. He'd promise to work on it again and again only to do the same thing over and over again. This made me question if

1. He did want to change but just was incapable

2. He'd bull___ and manipulate his way out of it just to keep me "happy"

When Im angry I go for option 2, sometimes in a moment of compassion I go for option 1 and feel sorry for him cause he knows how much he hurts people but just can't change his actions.

Either way... .I have to let it go. We broke up, the motive doesnt matter, the results were the same and not livable for me. Thats the only thing that matters

[JayApril]

Recoop: I agree, with the first one. I believe there is awareness, that is why they need to bullbutter their way out of things. But, they are mentally incapable of changing their behavioral patterns. I believe even with therapy it is very modrate progress. But, I chose to move on, not just for my sanity but for my son. No way in heck was I going to put him through that.

[LonelyChild]

Recoop: I agree, with the first one. I believe there is awareness, that is why they need to bullbutter their way out of things. But, they are mentally incapable of changing their behavioral patterns. I believe even with therapy it is very modrate progress. But, I chose to move on, not just for my sanity but for my son. No way in heck was I going to put him through that.

This is actually an interesting way of looking at it. If they weren't self-aware - aware of their distorted behavior and perception - they wouldn't go out of their way to hide it. Hiding implies being aware of it.

The thing that's preventing me from detaching is:

1. Fear that she will somehow grow up, turn normal, and have a happy relationship (like we did first 6 months of our 2.5 year r/s) with someone else.

2. The fact that she DOES have moments of clarity, when she talks with a calm voice, a bit depressed and says "don't you think I know how horrible a person I am, that I need to change?" But a few moments later, she forgets she ever said that and blames me for everything again.

[JayApril]

Recoop: I agree, with the first one. I believe there is awareness, that is why they need to bullbutter their way out of things. But, they are mentally incapable of changing their behavioral patterns. I believe even with therapy it is very modrate progress. But, I chose to move on, not just for my sanity but for my son. No way in heck was I going to put him through that.

This is actually an interesting way of looking at it. If they weren't self-aware - aware of their distorted behavior and perception - they wouldn't go out of their way to hide it. Hiding implies being aware of it.

The thing that's preventing me from detaching is:

1. Fear that she will somehow grow up, turn normal, and have a happy relationship (like we did first 6 months of our 2.5 year r/s) with someone else.

2. The fact that she DOES have moments of clarity, when she talks with a calm voice, a bit depressed and says "don't you think I know how horrible a person I am, that I need to change?" But a few moments later, she forgets she ever said that and blames me for everything again.

I am going to be honest and real with you. Forgive me if I am being mean. She has moments of clarity because, she is AWARE. Rather than accepting she is her own problem she would rather blame who ever is nearst. (You).

As for the first thing my love. Without God and YEARS of therapy, I dont believe they can change. No new person will be enough for them to change. They will always be disordered and sporatic.

[Recooperating]

Since I also struggle with the replacment and how happy they "appear" to be I made a note to myself to keep reminding me :

Dear Recoop,

He wont change overnight, he will continue the same pattern over and over. He did it to his ex wife, he did it to you, good chance he'll just keep doing it since it has been his pattern for over 20 years. She will have a life of:

Chaos

Empty promises

Instability

Poverty

Dishonesty

Impulsivity

Clutter

Moodiness

Sarcasm

Passive agressiveness

Degrading

Hurt/sorrow

Infidelity

Impotence

Insecurity

Betrayal

Abuse

Selfishness

Giving, receiving nothing in return

Being a doormat

Stress and anxiety

Fear

Doubts

Playing detective

Critisism

Drama

Temper tantrums

Rages

Physicall threaths

Suicide threaths

No need to be jealous or hurt. She wont be "happy" with him. She will be a victim too, I really dont envy her. You will have a calm peacefull life instead. Focus on that!

[JayApril]

Since I also struggle with the replacment and how happy they "appear" to be I made a note to myself to keep reminding me :

Dear Recoop,

He wont change overnight, he will continue the same pattern over and over. He did it to his ex wife, he did it to you, good chance he'll just keep doing it since it has been his pattern for over 20 years. She will have a life of:

Chaos

Empty promises

Instability

Poverty

Dishonesty

Impulsivity

Clutter

Moodiness

Sarcasm

Passive agressiveness

Degrading

Hurt/sorrow

Infidelity

Impotence

Insecurity

Betrayal

Abuse

Selfishness

Giving, receiving nothing in return

Being a doormat

Stress and anxiety

Fear

Doubts

Playing detective

Critisism

Drama

Temper tantrums

Rages

Physicall threaths

Suicide threaths

No need to be jealous or hurt. She wont be "happy" with him. She will be a victim too, I really dont envy her. You will have a calm peacefull life instead. Focus on that!

That is a good life hack there . I might try that. Agree 100%

[LonelyChild]

... .

Do you know what's going on with the replacement? Is your ex doing the same thing again?

[Recooperating]

... .

Do you know what's going on with the replacement? Is your ex doing the same thing again?

Well all I know is... .My dBPDexbf (in denial) cheated on me with her, dumped her to make it work with me, slept with her again (i didnt know) then she harrashed me, telling me how he's been sleeping around and how she thinks he is NPD. He wanted to go through with the wedding and then I found out he had slept with her again. That in combination with the "you are the love of my life oh no wait you are a cold hearted b*tch... ." Made me leave for good 1 months before the wedding. He went back to her almost immediately. Then he harasses me telling me he's sleeping with 5 different women built like brick houses, how he's so happy screwing around while her FB shows they are in a rs... .  blah blah... .Her profile picture then went from happy pics of them together to pics of her alone to pics of them together... .But I have stopped checking now. Its not healthy for me and its actually none of my bussiness. I want them to crash and burn, but thats childish and immature from my part. Its a unhealthy need for validation... .I know it rationally, but emtionally I keep struggling with it... .

All I know is that their rs started off with hurt, lies and infidelity... .She trashed him, he trashed her, now they are a "happy" couple... .   Not a healthy foundation... .But not my circus, not my monkeys... .Im staying away from any of that drama... .I need to focus on my future, not my past and let these people stay in the past. The rs didnt work for me, maybe it will work for them, who knows... .But its a struggle to not let the emotion take the upper hand and stay mature... .

[JayApril]

How did you stop the facebook checking? If you dont mind me asking. I do it as well.