How did I engulf her?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I don't understand what the "fear of engulfment" consists of. I have read the stuff posted online and in professional writing about it, but nobody describes what this is like experientially. The "fear of abandonment" is obvious, and my ex showed it quite obviously as a state of fear accompanied by direct questions about whether I was "getting ready to dump" her. But the alleged fear of engulfment is described by abstractions like, "fear of loss of self." These feelings may be concrete for pwBPD sometimes, but I never saw my former partner act scared when she was in withdrawal mode.

I figured that "fear of engulfment" had to do with needs for space, autonomy in choices, and so on. I need a lot of those things myself. When people get very clingy with me and want to be in my physical presence 24/7 it makes me feel like my skin is crawling. Or that I need to wiggle out of my skin to get away from the person plastered to its surface. Is that what pwBPD feel? When I am like that I need to know that the other person will take responsibility for entertaining themselves and supporting themselves emotionally, at least part of the time.

As far as I can tell, the only pressure I put on my partner was that when she emotionally disengaged from the relationship I always was upset by it. I did, however, try to work out some ways my partner could talk to me about her fears and needs when she was feeling like withdrawing. I now understand that she didn't have the ability or skills to participate in those negotiations, but I did tell her I could probably work with the back and forth pattern if we could talk about what was going on at those times.

I am not thinking that, if only I had been less engulfing, she would still be in the relationship. I am more concerned about how I am participating in the destructive dynamic. I have been with several pwBPD and I need to stop doing whatever I am doing that attracts these people to me and vice versa.

[Achaya]

I don't understand what the "fear of engulfment" consists of. I have read the stuff posted online and in professional writing about it, but nobody describes what this is like experientially. The "fear of abandonment" is obvious, and my ex showed it quite obviously as a state of fear accompanied by direct questions about whether I was "getting ready to dump" her. But the alleged fear of engulfment is described by abstractions like, "fear of loss of self." These feelings may be concrete for pwBPD sometimes, but I never saw my former partner act scared when she was in withdrawal mode.

I figured that "fear of engulfment" had to do with needs for space, autonomy in choices, and so on. I need a lot of those things myself. When people get very clingy with me and want to be in my physical presence 24/7 it makes me feel like my skin is crawling. Or that I need to wiggle out of my skin to get away from the person plastered to its surface. Is that what pwBPD feel? When I am like that I need to know that the other person will take responsibility for entertaining themselves and supporting themselves emotionally, at least part of the time.

As far as I can tell, the only pressure I put on my partner was that when she emotionally disengaged from the relationship I always was upset by it. I did, however, try to work out some ways my partner could talk to me about her fears and needs when she was feeling like withdrawing. I now understand that she didn't have the ability or skills to participate in those negotiations, but I did tell her I could probably work with the back and forth pattern if we could talk about what was going on at those times.

I am not thinking that, if only I had been less engulfing, she would still be in the relationship. I am more concerned about how I am participating in the destructive dynamic. I have been with several pwBPD and I need to stop doing whatever I am doing that attracts these people to me and vice versa.

[JRT]

Mine did some things that were clearly a sign of engulfment that I was able to discern after the fact. But the funny thing is that she was pursuing the engulfing characteristics and not pushing away from them.

She took over management of the website of my side business right away which I appreciated but thought was odd. Not like she did much with it... .in fact, she let it atrophy. I also am an amateur photographer whit, I think, some pretty decent shots. without prompting, she announced that she was going to author a website to sell my pics and then she was going to attend various art shows to do the same. She moved to be close to me prior to our engagement (even though it meant she had to send her son to a new school) and also went ahead with moving into my house without me prompting her to do so at all... .I went along. She also wanted to learn my family language even though the only person that I speak it with any longer is my mother... .

The list goes on but again, she expressed an unusual desire to adopt MY LIFE and certain attributes with a very unusual vigor to do so. In retrospect, she embraced these things not in a way that someone who feared engulfment would.

[Mutt]

Hi Achaya,

Your ex partner is emotionally arrested at an early development stage and is fearful of the world and emotionally merges with someone; an emotional caretaker. She also lacks a stable sense of self and a pwBPD fear engulfment; meaning that your personality will annihilate her own existence.

[once removed]

achaya,

i think so much of the fear of engulfment can be completely undetectable for some of us even in retrospect. youre right about the loss of autonomy, but this may or may not be due to any thing you did. for example, a pwBPD might be clingy, and simultaneously hate themselves for being clingy or frankly even having needs. i also think its an inevitable outcome of the mirroring and the inability to keep it up. and, often, a need to blame you as a mirror and an imperfect one. you might have read stories of members claiming that their BPDex would rebel against the very things that supposedly attracted them or that they once claimed to love. in this way, their sense of themselves is about as unstable as their sense of you. that has a multitude of implications. something wrong with you = something wrong with them (avoided) = something obviously wrong. none of that is fully or objectively realized either, so its distorted and can play out in a multitude of ways.

pwBPD often struggle with intimacy. did yours? that might be the fear of engulfment at work too. struggle with empathy? similar thing.

my point is it manifests in lots of ways. a general communication of a "need for space" is but one, and not one i ever directly encountered. the fear of abandonment and engulfment can swing wildly back and forth, and its reasonable that youd see more of one than the other.

[Dr56]

a general communication of a "need for space" is but one, and not one i ever directly encountered. the fear of abandonment and engulfment can swing wildly back and forth

The need for space is one I certainly encountered a great deal, and is probably the most obvious sign of a fear of engulfment I can think of in my r/s. As just one example, when she announced she wanted to split up, one reason she cited was, "Your books are everywhere! Where's the space for my books?" Basically, we had two bookshelves in our place, about half the shelves filled with books that might be described as mine only. I'd even offered once to donate a number of my books to the library so we could declutter a bit; she said no, the books have sentimental value, let's keep them. When she moved out, she took almost none of her own books from the shelves (some of them printed in a language I can't even read), and didn't want to take any of the books we'd purchased together; all of which I think suggests her preocuppation had nothing at all to do with physical space, but rather emotional space, and an overwhelming fear of being crowded out.

Other times it would get mixed in with projection - she'd get all wound up and start yelling about how smothered she felt, how there was no room in our flat for her, what a mess it was, pointing the finger at me; but when you looked around, it was all her things lying on the floor, her clothes draped over the furniture. If I ever noted this, she'd claim she'd be better at organizing things if it weren't for me getting in her way and hindering her personal development. So she had to move out and be alone to"work on herself."

And as once removed mentions, this need for space would swing wildly to fears of abandonment. Sometimes she'd ask if I could leave the flat for for a bit so she could have space and quiet time. It would come out as a reasonable enough request. But then before too long I'd start getting panicked texts asking why I wasn't back at home with her, claiming that I pay her absolutely no attention.

[patientandclear]

I don't understand what the "fear of engulfment" consists of. I have read the stuff posted online and in professional writing about it, but nobody describes what this is like experientially. The "fear of abandonment" is obvious, and my ex showed it quite obviously as a state of fear accompanied by direct questions about whether I was "getting ready to dump" her. But the alleged fear of engulfment is described by abstractions like, "fear of loss of self." These feelings may be concrete for pwBPD sometimes, but I never saw my former partner act scared when she was in withdrawal mode.

I figured that "fear of engulfment" had to do with needs for space, autonomy in choices, and so on. I need a lot of those things myself. When people get very clingy with me and want to be in my physical presence 24/7 it makes me feel like my skin is crawling. Or that I need to wiggle out of my skin to get away from the person plastered to its surface. Is that what pwBPD feel? When I am like that I need to know that the other person will take responsibility for entertaining themselves and supporting themselves emotionally, at least part of the time.

As far as I can tell, the only pressure I put on my partner was that when she emotionally disengaged from the relationship I always was upset by it. I did, however, try to work out some ways my partner could talk to me about her fears and needs when she was feeling like withdrawing. I now understand that she didn't have the ability or skills to participate in those negotiations, but I did tell her I could probably work with the back and forth pattern if we could talk about what was going on at those times.

I am not thinking that, if only I had been less engulfing, she would still be in the relationship. I am more concerned about how I am participating in the destructive dynamic. I have been with several pwBPD and I need to stop doing whatever I am doing that attracts these people to me and vice versa.

I don't have BPD, but in an early relationship with the man I should have spent my life with, I experienced fear of engulfment.  There was nothing wrong.  He was great.  We were in bed.  He was my best friend.  Sex was fantastic -- best ever for me.  I looked at him, and he was looking at me with incredible love and tenderness in his eyes.  And suddenly ... .I just HAD to get away.  I've spent years trying to understand that reaction (relevant to our discussions here, I did NOT spend days or months at the time trying to figure it out, I was too urgently trying to get away from the whole situation).  Ultimately, 2.5 years later, after he moved away and then I moved away, I realized I really loved him.  I told him so, and hoped to repair the relationship (he was seeing someone else by then and so it didn't work out for us).  I knew he would ask me what in the heck happened at the beginning -- why did I run away like that.  I thought and thought, and all I could think of to explain it was that it was "too much."  "Too close."  But to go a little deeper: it felt like the end of me.  The end of everything uniquely mine.  And I felt revulsion and an intense need to get outta there.  To flee.

Note that it had NOTHING to do with anything he did.  It probably had nothing to do with anything you did, either.

[jhkbuzz]

The fact that you were willing to give her "space" should be your clearest sign that you did not "cause" her engulfment fears.  These fears are a classic part of the disorder.  

The "arrested development" of pwBPD includes the fact that they never fully separated from mother.  There is repetition compulsion at work in adult r/s's; emotional fusion (a replication of the first experience with mother) followed by the drive for autonomy.  Since this drive for autonomy was thwarted in childhood, there is the (unconscious) desire for a do-over.

Hence the push-pull, and the very distinct feeling that some of us have when our ex's leave - that their rebellion against us as a 'controlling S/O's' sounds very much as though it is coming from someone younger.

[4Years5Months]

Here is a broader question for everyone -

Okay, so engulfment (or abandonment) takes over and a BPDer pushes you away.  Mine did on seven occasions.  But if that fear is so strong, how can they then attach to a replacement, and likely do the same relationship things (sex, going places, maybe even eventually living together) without a hitch?  How is hitting the proverbial reset button "stopping" these fears?  Shouldn't my ex feel engulfed when my replacement shows her the same affection I did?

It just seems odd that it doesn't work with us, but then seems to be just fine with the next person.

[Tay25]

The easiest way to look at it is the push/pull cycles. Fear of abandonment (pull) is on one of end the spectrum, because they mirror you, they see you as the good part of themselves. They can't bare the loss of you so they do what they can to keep you around. They constantly need assurance you aren't going to leave them, which at least for me worked on getting me to attach and prove I was loyal. This is also why they have no problem getting rid of you once they paint you black because you are no longer useful, you are seen as bad and they don't want to mirror someone who is bad.

Fear of engulfment (push) is on the other end, and consists of two main things:

1: When they get too close to you they won't be able to deal with the pain if you leave them/hurt them so they distance themselves.

2: Getting to close to you makes them lose themselves , since they are mirroring you and this causes fear that they will lose their sense of self (however fractionally it may be) and will be a reflection of you.

The answer is, you didn't do anything to engulf her. This is part of the disorder and it will help you to realize that you are not the reason for most if not all of her actions, because they don't have a reason. They are done because of her inability to differentiate feelings from thoughts and from being incapable of rational thinking. Her behaviors are brought upon by her disorder not from you.

[jhkbuzz]

Here is a broader question for everyone -

Okay, so engulfment (or abandonment) takes over and a BPDer pushes you away.  Mine did on seven occasions.  But if that fear is so strong, how can they then attach to a replacement, and likely do the same relationship things (sex, going places, maybe even eventually living together) without a hitch?  How is hitting the proverbial reset button "stopping" these fears?  Shouldn't my ex feel engulfed when my replacement shows her the same affection I did?

It just seems odd that it doesn't work with us, but then seems to be just fine with the next person.

It isn't "just fine" with the next person - it will be the same cycle that we experienced.  Emotional fusion ("pull" love bombing; fear of abandonment - followed by engulfment fears ("push" devaluation; avoidance.

[confusedinWI]

Here is a broader question for everyone -

Okay, so engulfment (or abandonment) takes over and a BPDer pushes you away.  Mine did on seven occasions.  But if that fear is so strong, how can they then attach to a replacement, and likely do the same relationship things (sex, going places, maybe even eventually living together) without a hitch?  How is hitting the proverbial reset button "stopping" these fears?  Shouldn't my ex feel engulfed when my replacement shows her the same affection I did?

It just seems odd that it doesn't work with us, but then seems to be just fine with the next person.

I've struggled with that same question, and the answer I came up with is this: By hitting the reset button everything is new to them again, they are further away from the intimacy they had with you, they are able to put the mask on again, everything is wiped away and a new beginning starts. Once the new person starts responding to their hook, the intimacy the BPD is putting out there, once the replacement accepts that and says yes I want intimacy, their fear will come to the surface again.

I got the whole "I need my space" once we started living together. My ex gf would sometimes create arguments I think, so she would have a reason to storm out, go to her mother's house, or just go to the bedroom and slam the door. She claimed that she was getting crowded when the kids lived with us (only 3 nights a week) but now looking back knowing what I know it was the fear of engulfment.

Imagine being so hungry, all you think about all day is pizza. The day is over, you can go to the restaurant and get your pizza. Once you get there though, pizza is the last thing you want. You run out of the restaurant because you don't want pizza.

That's how I imagine they must be thinking. They want intimacy, they want the closeness, the affection, everything. Once it is there, it scares them, they can't handle it, they have to leave. Strange and I'm just now starting to understand it.

Remember, it is their disorder. I'm not giving us nons carte blanche that we didn't do anything wrong. I know with my Co-D issues I didn't establish boundaries, thus enabling her but I didn't push her away, I didn't run away. That is their disorder. Their replacement for us, they are not magically better with them. The replacement may offer something different then we did, but the end result will be the same. I'm learning to accept that as well.

It used to drive me crazy because my ex gf likes to ride motorcycles, I didn't have one. I don't have my license but it's one thing I want to do. I'd ride on the back of hers. So when she broke up with me and I saw that my replacement has a motorcycle, I thought to myself "hmm... .am I now less of a man in her eyes because my replacement has a motorcycle and I didn't". That's foolish thought. She moved on so quick that she was looking for someone to fill the void. The fact that he has a motorcycle doesn't mean anything compared to me. As for me now thinking I'm man, that is my issue. Men are defined by all types. I took care of her, myself, my children, my responsibilities... .that makes me a man. It's not about what I own, etc.

Bigger picture, she will find things in him to devalue. It's ironic I think because we lived together the last seven months and she would always complain that she didn't get to see me enough with my retail schedule. So you would think the next person she dates would be close to her right? Nope, this guy lives over an 1 1/2 away from her. Well I guess she has her space now .

I'm not fully detached yet but I'm trying to so hard. I still have my weak moments where I think what could I have done differently, but thankfully this board and my friends have called me out on that. If my ex wasn't disordered we might have had a shot, but that's not the reality I'm facing so it doesn't help to do the whole "what if".

[Achaya]

Here is a broader question for everyone -

Okay, so engulfment (or abandonment) takes over and a BPDer pushes you away.  Mine did on seven occasions.  But if that fear is so strong, how can they then attach to a replacement, and likely do the same relationship things (sex, going places, maybe even eventually living together) without a hitch?  How is hitting the proverbial reset button "stopping" these fears?  Shouldn't my ex feel engulfed when my replacement shows her the same affection I did?

It just seems odd that it doesn't work with us, but then seems to be just fine with the next person.

I realized in reading through the replies to my posts that when my ex would withdraw from me, she seldom withdrew to find solitude. She would say repeatedly that she wanted to spend a weekend alone in the woods, but then she would invite a number of other people (I wasn't always able to go or interested). So the "withdrawals" usually involved spending time with others in groups, where emotional intimacy wasn't likely to happen. I guess this met both her need to get away from me and her avoidance of being alone. I was confused by this behavior, and thought it must represent a big introvert/extravert difference between us. That was there too, but I am seeing another dimension now.

My ex told me that in her previous relationship they spent most of their weekends entertaining other couples or being entertained by them. I thought for a long time that they did this because that was what her partner wanted. When I asked, she clarified that in fact she was the one who initiated all this contact with other people. She added some vague comment, like, "That made it possible to…" She didn't finish the comment, but I assumed she was saying that the presence of other people lessened the tension between her and her partner. Now I think that was a correct interpretation, but I misinterpreted where the tension was coming from. It wasn't there because the relationship was conflicted for normal reasons, but because my ex can't tolerate spending very much time alone with a partner.

[Achaya]

a general communication of a "need for space" is but one, and not one i ever directly encountered. the fear of abandonment and engulfment can swing wildly back and forth

The need for space is one I certainly encountered a great deal, and is probably the most obvious sign of a fear of engulfment I can think of in my r/s. As just one example, when she announced she wanted to split up, one reason she cited was, "Your books are everywhere! Where's the space for my books?" Basically, we had two bookshelves in our place, about half the shelves filled with books that might be described as mine only. I'd even offered once to donate a number of my books to the library so we could declutter a bit; she said no, the books have sentimental value, let's keep them. When she moved out, she took almost none of her own books from the shelves (some of them printed in a language I can't even read), and didn't want to take any of the books we'd purchased together; all of which I think suggests her preocuppation had nothing at all to do with physical space, but rather emotional space, and an overwhelming fear of being crowded out.

Other times it would get mixed in with projection - she'd get all wound up and start yelling about how smothered she felt, how there was no room in our flat for her, what a mess it was, pointing the finger at me; but when you looked around, it was all her things lying on the floor, her clothes draped over the furniture. If I ever noted this, she'd claim she'd be better at organizing things if it weren't for me getting in her way and hindering her personal development. So she had to move out and be alone to"work on herself."

And as once removed mentions, this need for space would swing wildly to fears of abandonment. Sometimes she'd ask if I could leave the flat for for a bit so she could have space and quiet time. It would come out as a reasonable enough request. But then before too long I'd start getting panicked texts asking why I wasn't back at home with her, claiming that I pay her absolutely no attention.

[apollotech]

Achaya,

I think I know what you're looking for in order to understand engulfment. However, because you are healthy, because you have a complete self, I don't believe that it is possible to know what the fear of engulfment actually is like; you simply cannot experience it for yourself. Be thankful for that.

For me personally, the only time in my life that I cannot remember feeling the presence of my "self" was when I was put under for a minor surgery. I don't have a remembrance of/have a concept of/have feelings of existing during those hours. Where "I" was I don't know. Even during normal sleep you still have an "I". If what I experienced during that surgical procedure is what a pwBPD knows that they are going to experience as a result of intimacy, I don't blame them at all for avoiding intimacy. Who/what are you without your "self"? Do you even exist anymore? Did you ever exist? (Scared yet?)

It's not about needing space. If someone needs space that's a selfish statement from/about the "I"---I need. Engulfment is about the "I" being lost, consumed by someone else's "I". No matter how much you love someone, no matter how empathetic you are with someone, as a healthy, whole person, you know that if "you" walk away from that person you still are "you", you still have your "you". A pwBPD does not have that self-generated knowledge/reassurance. Survival mode kicks in, fight or flight. When my BPDexgf became engulfed, her flight mode was achieved through her rageing; her rage put distance between us. (You'll see that scenario posted on these boards: When togetherness/intimacy is achieved, the pwBPD will start a fight out of nowhere over nothing. Fear of engulfment is triggered. Rage ensues to generate/insure distance. The Non is left confused. Unfortunately, many Non's will start blaming themselves for the behavior(s) of the pwBPD or the pwBPD will gladly place that blame on the Non.)

What can be done by the Non to thwart this fear in the pwBPD? I have no idea. No intimacy/no togetherness = no relationship. The solution is for them, the pwBPD, not the Non, to get help and develope better coping mechanisms. Breaking yourself to try to address the needs of someone that is broken is not the solution.

[Achaya]

Oops! Please add this comment to the above post.

My ex talked a lot about not having room for her stuff, but it was at the end of the relationship. She apparently made an impulsive decision to ditch me, without thinking through ahead of time how the logistics would work. She moved into a friend's house, then kept telling me she couldn't come get her possessions from me because she didn't "have room." The move out went on for 3 weeks, and she didn't have that much stuff. She would promise to move the rest of it on a certain day, then would text me to say she couldn't finish, because she had to drive around town to various friends houses to deposit parts of her stuff. It was hard for me emotionally and I wanted the breakup to be over. At last she told me she had taken everything and we said our final goodbye. Last week I found more camping equipment in the garage. I texted her to ask if she wanted it and she told me I could dispose of it, as she "doesn't have any room."

[Achaya]

Achaya,

I think I know what you're looking for in order to understand engulfment. However, because you are healthy, because you have a complete self, I don't believe that it is possible to know what the fear of engulfment actually is like; you simply cannot experience it for yourself. Be thankful for that.

For me personally, the only time in my life that I cannot remember feeling the presence of my "self" was when I was put under for a minor surgery. I don't have a remembrance of/have a concept of/have feelings of existing during those hours. Where "I" was I don't know. Even during normal sleep you still have an "I". If what I experienced during that surgical procedure is what a pwBPD knows that they are going to experience as a result of intimacy, I don't blame them at all for avoiding intimacy. Who/what are you without your "self"? Do you even exist anymore? Did you ever exist? (Scared yet?)

It's not about needing space. If someone needs space that's a selfish statement from/about the "I"---I need. Engulfment is about the "I" being lost, consumed by someone else's "I". No matter how much you love someone, no matter how empathetic you are with someone, as a healthy, whole person, you know that if "you" walk away from that person you still are "you", you still have your "you". A pwBPD does not have that self-generated knowledge/reassurance. Survival mode kicks in, fight or flight. When my BPDexgf became engulfed, her flight mode was achieved through her rageing; her rage put distance between us. (You'll see that scenario posted on these boards: When togetherness/intimacy is achieved, the pwBPD will start a fight out of nowhere over nothing. Fear of engulfment is triggered. Rage ensues to generate/insure distance. The Non is left confused. Unfortunately, many Non's will start blaming themselves for the behavior(s) of the pwBPD or the pwBPD will gladly place that blame on the Non.)

What can be done by the Non to thwart this fear in the pwBPD? I have no idea. No intimacy/no togetherness = no relationship. The solution is for them, the pwBPD, not the Non, to get help and develope better coping mechanisms. Breaking yourself to try to address the needs of someone that is broken is not the solution.

As usual Apollo, you are spot on!

My ex talked a lot about starting over in life. She would periodically make all-or-nothing decisions to jettison everything she had accumulated, quit her job, and move to "new" life situations. I am quite sure that our breakup was part of one of those. She had been laid off from her job and decided to start her own business (without a realistic business plan in place). She was trying to strip her overhead down to almost nothing, and was expressing a common fantasy of hers that involved living a "simple life." When she would go into this restrictive mode she restricted everything, including her food intake. (She did get fat during our relationship, partly because I like to cook and feed my family well, and partly because she ate a lot of sweets when we weren't together). She told me that when she left previous partners she also left all her possessions with them (even if they objected) so that she could "just walk away from all that." Our breakup was the first one where she took responsibility for moving her stuff, and it obviously was done with great reluctance, and with some attitude ("You may think that this is incorrect, but I need more time to move my stuff."

My ex also talked about a lot of unusual experiences and conceptions regarding her own existence or lack thereof. I gathered that she wasn't speaking metaphorically but concretely, and I have no idea what that was like for her. Early in the relationship during idealization, she would share (to me) puzzling fantasies of "living in (my) pocket" and traveling around with me all day. So I get what you are saying when you observe that we "normals" have no experiences to match theirs. I have always had a strong, stable sense of self, and have no understanding at all of what it is like to not have one. My ex told me a lot about her difficulties in maintaining a sense of self, but as much as I tried to understand, I never got what she was talking about. I didn't even realize until the end of the relationship that pretty much everything she told me about what distressed her involved some kind of an identity issue: Who am I, what is my purpose, what will I do when I grow up, what kind of person am I, and so on.

It helped me when I realized that she was so hung up at the identity level. I saw that my issues in the relationship were mostly about wanting more intimacy and that was why I was always confronting the withdrawals. My ex wasn't very interested in intimacy of any kind and in fact was avoiding it with me. I recognized then that she had more basic priorities regarding her identity confusion, and this confusion might be a major cause of her inability to sustain an emotional commitment to me.  I don't know why it took me so long to see that. I think I was projecting my relational agenda onto her, or at least making some incorrect assumptions that she had the same agenda I had (closeness, enjoying each other and our lives together, sharing the work). I think that during the seduction/idealization phase she also wanted closeness, but was probably using it for purposes more related to her identity problems than to a need for intimacy. Also, during that time period she did not share much information about any conflicts that were developing between my agenda and hers; she made it easy for both of us to assume that we were on the same page, when in fact we were not at all.

[apollotech]

"I saw that my issues in the relationship were mostly about wanting more intimacy and that was why I was always confronting the withdrawals. My ex wasn't very interested in intimacy of any kind and in fact was avoiding it with me. I recognized then that she had more basic priorities regarding her identity confusion, and this confusion might be a major cause of her inability to sustain an emotional commitment to me.  I don't know why it took me so long to see that. I think I was projecting my relational agenda onto her, or at least making some incorrect assumptions that she had the same agenda I had (closeness, enjoying each other and our lives together, sharing the work). I think that during the seduction/idealization phase she also wanted closeness [the attachment with you], but was probably using it for purposes more related to her identity problems [bonding with your self] than to a need for intimacy."

Achaya,

YES, YES, and YES! Thank you for writing that! Now I don't feel as if I was the only one that experienced that marginalization with a BPDer. My BPDexgf could do "sex" at the drop of a hat. What she couldn't do was intimacy or have an emotional connection. Like you, that is what I wanted in our relationship. Like you, I pursued it; that resulted in a large wedge being driven between us. Like you, I thought she and I were on the same page. Like you, I had been directed to believe that. In the end, it was all a lie.

Sex with someone = no trigger. Intimacy/emotional connectedness with someone = trigger. Hence, their ability to bed hop so easily. Infidelity abounds, but no emotional attachment.

As crazy as it is, that's how you know that you're close to a pwBPD, you can trigger them. That's why most people never see/experience their crazy making behavior. My BPDexgf and I share many mutual friends together, friendships that we've mutually shared for 30+ years; those people still don't know my BPDexgf. They have met her for the past 30+ years, but they don't know her. It makes me sad for her; she cannot show them who she really is. But, at the same time, she recognizes that she has "issues" and won't make a move to address them.

[Lifewriter16]

Hi All,

A couple of days ago, my BPDxbf and I sat and talked openly about the things that have been going wrong between us after he read member 2010's post on the dynamics that occur between the lonely child and the abandoned child. He said it really helped him to understand what had been happening between us (we've been triggering each other quite strongly and regularly). After we talked, we just sat together and I felt a deep emptiness which I found very uncomfortable indeed.

Later that day, my 7 year old daughter wanted me to colour with her but I needed to cook tea. Usually, I would have sent her out of the kitchen. That day I brought a table in so she could colour on her own but still be near me. I realised, at that moment, that I am quite uncomfortable if another person needs or wants me. I need to 'love' from afar. I can move towards someone just as long as the approach comes from me and there is distance between us. I withdraw if the attempt at being close comes from them. If there is a mutual coming together, I feel like running. It is almost terror. I imagine that it is a case of mistaken identity and that the other person will eventually realise that I am not what he thought I was and he'll leave. I fear he will discover that I am not entertaining or interesting enough, not stable enough, not nice enough, not caring enough, not beautiful enough, just NOT ENOUGH. Whatever the reason, I think he will just stop loving me when he sees the real me. 

It has taken me years and years of therapy to even begin to face my own core pain and be able to tolerate intimacy and I don't have BPD, I have AS. If people with BPD feel anything like me, I am not surprised they act out and end up running. It's pretty tragic. I, for one, have more compassion for my BPDbf now than I had when we first started our period of recycling 2 months ago. I know another breakup could be just around the corner, but now I know it's not because he doesn't want to love and be loved, it's because he's having to go to hell and back to face the emotions that are coming up for him simply because he is now loved and it contradicts everything he believes about himself.

Lifewriter

[jhkbuzz]

"I saw that my issues in the relationship were mostly about wanting more intimacy and that was why I was always confronting the withdrawals. My ex wasn't very interested in intimacy of any kind and in fact was avoiding it with me. I recognized then that she had more basic priorities regarding her identity confusion, and this confusion might be a major cause of her inability to sustain an emotional commitment to me.  I don't know why it took me so long to see that. I think I was projecting my relational agenda onto her, or at least making some incorrect assumptions that she had the same agenda I had (closeness, enjoying each other and our lives together, sharing the work). I think that during the seduction/idealization phase she also wanted closeness [the attachment with you], but was probably using it for purposes more related to her identity problems [bonding with your self] than to a need for intimacy."

Achaya,

YES, YES, and YES! Thank you for writing that! Now I don't feel as if I was the only one that experienced that marginalization with a BPDer. My BPDexgf could do "sex" at the drop of a hat. What she couldn't do was intimacy or have an emotional connection. Like you, that is what I wanted in our relationship. Like you, I pursued it; that resulted in a large wedge being driven between us. Like you, I thought she and I were on the same page. Like you, I had been directed to believe that. In the end, it was all a lie.

Sex with someone = no trigger. Intimacy/emotional connectedness with someone = trigger. Hence, their ability to bed hop so easily. Infidelity abounds, but no emotional attachment.

As crazy as it is, that's how you know that you're close to a pwBPD, you can trigger them. That's why most people never see/experience their crazy making behavior. My BPDexgf and I share many mutual friends together, friendships that we've mutually shared for 30+ years; those people still don't know my BPDexgf. They have met her for the past 30+ years, but they don't know her. It makes me sad for her; she cannot show them who she really is. But, at the same time, she recognizes that she has "issues" and won't make a move to address them.

Member 2010 had some really interesting posts on this topic; here's one:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=153239.msg1478683#msg1478683

[Achaya]

I'm glad that what I shared makes you feel less alone, Apollo. Another man I was talking to on this site also used the term "marginalized" and it fit exactly with what I had felt. We were talking about how our exes would find an endless series of preoccupations, activities and people to put between themselves and us. I used to envision it as a solar system, in which my ex occupied an elliptical orbit. Every so often she would reach the point at the farthest reach of her orbit where she could touch me, but it wouldn't last long before she swung past and I was alone and waiting again.

It really helped me a lot to differentiate myself (that is, un-enmesh) from her when I saw that interpersonal intimacy is not only NOT her priority, but in fact had to be sacrificed to her identity struggle. We were working at cross purposes all along! When my ex left me she said she saw no reason for us to "go back to trying to work on the relationship, because we would only make each other unhappy." I objected to that statement for several good reasons, but I see now there is a lot of truth in it.

[Achaya]

Member 2010 had some really interesting posts on this topic; here's one:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=153239.msg1478683#msg1478683

This is a fascinating quote from 2010 because it pertains to the bondage/enslavement dynamic.

My ex just moved in with some friends who need help with their property. She saw it as an opportunity to live for free while she starts up her own business. Based on what she has told me, she threw herself into physical labor at their house to avoid the distress associated with our breakup. She was doing so much the homeowners sat her down and asked her to chill out, they are concerned about her stress level and they don't need her to do so much. She heard the feedback loud and clear, but apparently was unable to stop. During our last conversation she referred to herself resentfully as "an indentured servant."

In the beginning of the relationship she would do a lot of work around my property as well. She said she did it because she loves me. Later, she stopped contributing altogether to the household. I was stunned when she said she had started doing work for these friends of hers, even before she moved in. She said it gave her a sense of purpose, like she was "really helping somebody."

[Conundrum]

People with fragmented selves become easily engulfed, because they have great difficulty integrating contradictory/competing needs. Therefore, in any given relationship they repress perceived needs--exchanging many of those needs for the benefits of mirroring. Consequently, without a commitment to evidenced based therapies--when those unmet needs reach a tipping point, the balance swings towards relational engulfment. By that time they often feel resentment and/or enslaved.     

On a certain level, it is simple (almost instinctual) for a person who is used to "morphing" to adopt the beliefs, values, habits and desires of another--yet it becomes more complex when in perpetuity one is required to adopt the substantive relational/sexual needs of another-- indefinitely calling them their own. Sublimating disordered needs without addressing the core trauma contributing to those needs, will more often than not result in acting out via maladaptive coping tools.

A history of unstable relationships evidences not only a fragmented self, but also fragmented needs. Without integration of that fragmented self, the person cannot sustain authentic intimacy--because in essence they remain a stranger to themselves, while remaining beholden towards the Albatross of their fragmented needs.

The pertinent question as I see it (for me)--when one becomes aware that their partner possesses a fragmented self (lacking a coherent sense of identity), and doesn't seek help--they probably have forfeited the mantle of "traditional relationship material." Yet--what (if anything) should remain relationally between the parties, after-the-fact? After all, we were  interested in our pwBPD when "traditional" relational aspirational elements were on the table. Should that bond be entirely severed when one learns that their partner suffers from emotional dysregulation disorder?  I'm fully aware that many have suffered terrible abuse etc., and there is no correct or incorrect answer--but just wondering? Because--if it's so difficult for us to control our desire for them--then why are we so hard on them for their inability to control their own fragmented selves/needs? I recognize that there are a gazillion valid answers. 

[jhkbuzz]

People with fragmented selves become easily engulfed, because they have great difficulty integrating contradictory/competing needs. Therefore, in any given relationship they repress perceived needs--exchanging many of those needs for the benefits of mirroring. Consequently, without a commitment to evidenced based therapies--when those unmet needs reach a tipping point, the balance swings towards relational engulfment. By that time they often feel resentment and/or enslaved.    

On a certain level, it is simple (almost instinctual) for a person who is used to "morphing" to adopt the beliefs, values, habits and desires of another--yet it becomes more complex when in perpetuity one is required to adopt the substantive relational/sexual needs of another-- indefinitely calling them their own. Sublimating disordered needs without addressing the core trauma contributing to those needs, will more often than not result in acting out via maladaptive coping tools.

A history of unstable relationships evidences not only a fragmented self, but also fragmented needs. Without integration of that fragmented self, the person cannot sustain authentic intimacy--because in essence they remain a stranger to themselves, while remaining beholden towards the Albatross of their fragmented needs.

The pertinent question as I see it (for me)--when one becomes aware that their partner possesses a fragmented self (lacking a coherent sense of identity), and doesn't seek help--they probably have forfeited the mantle of "traditional relationship material." Yet--what (if anything) should remain relationally between the parties, after-the-fact? After all, we were  interested in our pwBPD when "traditional" relational aspirational elements were on the table. Should that bond be entirely severed when one learns that their partner suffers from emotional dysregulation disorder?  I'm fully aware that many have suffered terrible abuse etc., and there is no correct or incorrect answer--but just wondering? Because--if it's so difficult for us to control our desire for them--then why are we so hard on them for their inability to control their own fragmented selves/needs? I recognize that there are a gazillion valid answers.  

Those are some great questions... .Conundrum.  Perhaps they are the reason for your name?  

How have you answered those questions for yourself?

[apollotech]

"Yet--what (if anything) should remain relationally between the parties, after-the-fact? After all, we were  interested in our pwBPD when "traditional" relational aspirational elements were on the table. Should that bond be entirely severed when one learns that their partner suffers from emotional dysregulation disorder?... .if it's so difficult for us to control our desire for them--then why are we so hard on them for their inability to control their own fragmented selves/needs?"

Conundrum,

I couldn't agree with you more on this. I have always questioned my actions in leaving my BPDexgf: Would I have walked away from a friend that had, say, diabetes, and needed my help, no. Granted, that's a different scenario as my friend's diabetes would not be personally destructive to me, but the principal is the same.

When I get fit enough (not there yet), I am going to open communications with my BPDexgf. (I am not advocating this for anyone else.) I am pretty confident that I can get her into therapy. There are many hurdles that'll have to be leaped, but I think that I can get it done. If/when she's in therapy, it's up to her to  take advantage of said situation and improve her life.

[apollotech]

Here is a broader question for everyone -

Okay, so engulfment (or abandonment) takes over and a BPDer pushes you away.  Mine did on seven occasions.  But if that fear is so strong, how can they then attach to a replacement, and likely do the same relationship things (sex, going places, maybe even eventually living together) without a hitch?  How is hitting the proverbial reset button "stopping" these fears?  Shouldn't my ex feel engulfed when my replacement shows her the same affection I did?

It just seems odd that it doesn't work with us, but then seems to be just fine with the next person.

4Years,

I think you're asking for answers to your questions from the wrong perspective. The problems of fear of abandonment/engulfment lie within the pwBPD; that is where your answers lie. It is not about the Non, or even about the relationship (if it is non-emotional, superficial) between the Non and the pwBPD. I discussed this a bit with you on one of your threads. For someone to become a trigger, that someone has to be emotionally engaged with the pwBPD---love, hate, infatuation, etc., some deep emotional engagement on the BPD's side. (Have you ever met an obiter on these boards? Have you ever met someone that just casually dated, was/is casually involved with a pwBPD on these boards? Do people that were involved in a FWB scenario with a pwBPD post on these boards? No. You meet people that have been through the wringer with a pwBPD, people that were "emotionally" involved with a pwBPD. You meet the "special" people.) This is why I asked you on your thread if you actually saw/experienced your exSO triggered by one of the replacements, including the security guy.

He, along with those other men in your particular situation, could very well be just lap dogs to her, orbiters that she is engaged with on a superficial level. If so, they cannot trigger her because, quite frankly, she doesn't care enough about them. Because you were/are able to trigger her, that's the proof that she did indeed have a very strong emotional bond with you. Unfortunately, because of that strong emotional bond, the relationship is blown apart.

If that strong emotional bond is formed/exists (on her side) with the security guy, he is going to experience the same turmoil that you experienced. At some point he will have to choose: attempt to get her into therapy and ride it out with her, accept his role as a doormat, go through the recycle process(es), or leave the relationship. Of course, at any given time, she may boot him.

[jhkbuzz]

"Yet--what (if anything) should remain relationally between the parties, after-the-fact? After all, we were  interested in our pwBPD when "traditional" relational aspirational elements were on the table. Should that bond be entirely severed when one learns that their partner suffers from emotional dysregulation disorder?... .if it's so difficult for us to control our desire for them--then why are we so hard on them for their inability to control their own fragmented selves/needs?"

Conundrum,

I couldn't agree with you more on this. I have always questioned my actions in leaving my BPDexgf: Would I have walked away from a friend that had, say, diabetes, and needed my help, no. Granted, that's a different scenario as my friend's diabetes would not be personally destructive to me, but the principal is the same.

When I get fit enough (not there yet), I am going to open communications with my BPDexgf. (I am not advocating this for anyone else.) I am pretty confident that I can get her into therapy. There are many hurdles that'll have to be leaped, but I think that I can get it done. If/when she's in therapy, it's up to her to  take advantage of said situation and improve her life.

The principle is the same; in "theory" they are similar - but the potentially (emotionally) destructive results make them two very dissimilar scenarios.

I sometimes feel exactly the same way as you about re-engaging - but then I stop and question why I might be continuing to view her as someone whom I need to "save"; someone who is childlike and is in need of my guidance (as the wiser "parent".  What's the payoff for me? There must be one if I consider the possibility of allowing her back into my life after all of the emotional devastation she has caused - no one is completely altruistic, myself included.  Wouldn't it be more beneficial for her if I view her as a completely autonomous adult who doesn't need anyone to "swoop in" to help her - as an autonomous adult who gets to figure out her journey and make her own decisions and live with the results - just like I do? That's really the only hope she has for healing - all the white knights and rescuers can't do her healing for her.

Until I get very, very clear on my own motives, I won't re-engage with her on any level.  I'm definitely not there yet.

And I'm not taking you to task on any of this apollotech - I'm sure you've been thinking about all of these things.  Just mulling it all over out loud in a public forum.  

[Achaya]

People with fragmented selves become easily engulfed, because they have great difficulty integrating contradictory/competing needs. Therefore, in any given relationship they repress perceived needs--exchanging many of those needs for the benefits of mirroring. Consequently, without a commitment to evidenced based therapies--when those unmet needs reach a tipping point, the balance swings towards relational engulfment. By that time they often feel resentment and/or enslaved.     

On a certain level, it is simple (almost instinctual) for a person who is used to "morphing" to adopt the beliefs, values, habits and desires of another--yet it becomes more complex when in perpetuity one is required to adopt the substantive relational/sexual needs of another-- indefinitely calling them their own. Sublimating disordered needs without addressing the core trauma contributing to those needs, will more often than not result in acting out via maladaptive coping tools.

A history of unstable relationships evidences not only a fragmented self, but also fragmented needs. Without integration of that fragmented self, the person cannot sustain authentic intimacy--because in essence they remain a stranger to themselves, while remaining beholden towards the Albatross of their fragmented needs.

The pertinent question as I see it (for me)--when one becomes aware that their partner possesses a fragmented self (lacking a coherent sense of identity), and doesn't seek help--they probably have forfeited the mantle of "traditional relationship material." Yet--what (if anything) should remain relationally between the parties, after-the-fact? After all, we were  interested in our pwBPD when "traditional" relational aspirational elements were on the table. Should that bond be entirely severed when one learns that their partner suffers from emotional dysregulation disorder?  I'm fully aware that many have suffered terrible abuse etc., and there is no correct or incorrect answer--but just wondering? Because--if it's so difficult for us to control our desire for them--then why are we so hard on them for their inability to control their own fragmented selves/needs? I recognize that there are a gazillion valid answers. 

This is a very interesting post, Conundrum. I note that you divide pwBPDs who seek therapy from those who don't, in terms of assessing their potential as intimate partners. My ex has had extensive psychotherapy of various types, and has found it helpful. However, I don't think that any of her therapists understood what she does to her romantic partners. My ex has very little ability to articulate and express her experience in a conversation. She can do so very well through other forms of communication, but the conversation is the heart of therapy, and she isn't good at it. She also is an impressive, gifted and talented individual, and her therapists have sometimes minimized her "level of disturbance," as she herself put it.

With regard to your remarks about being hard on BPD partners for their acting out, that did not apply to my relationship. I was more than ready to take on the disorder, sword in hand and entirely confident that we could win. Note that I say "we," not "I." I thought she would be at my side in this battle, not opposing me, or sitting on the couch smoking weed and spacing out. I talked to her during every reconciliation about my need and eager desire to find out what was going on with her during the distancing. I got to a point of acceptance that, as I told her, no matter how indifferent or angry she might feel towards me, I wanted her to share that rather than keep it to herself.

I always found her stuff to be fascinating. I would point out that many people posting on these boards have a similar attraction to the complexities of the PDs. There is a lot of detailed technical material on these boards that obviously emerged from hours of research by the author into the technical writing on BPD and npd. The mental health professionals are also intensely fascinated by these people. If you look at the psychoanalytic journals, patients with BPD seem to be the focus of many if not most of the papers.

If my ex had been willing to take on her demons in the context of our relationship I would be posting on the Staying Board right now. Now that I have learned so much from these boards, I am thankful (most of the time) that my ex made the decision to leave. I have learned from my personal experience and from what I have read that pwBPD don't work on their problems consistently in a proactive way. Marsha Linehan describes them as passive, avoidant, and as needing to work harder on their issues. That certainly describes my ex. So the heroic struggle against the demon disorder would never have happened, even if my ex was willing to work on her relational stuff in her own way. It's like so many important dimensions of our relationship, I projected my own strengths  and values regarding personal growth onto my partner. She prefers to think of herself as "broken" and therefore unable to meet another person's normal needs. Or as she said, "I am (profanity)-ed up, let's leave it at that."

[myself]

I projected my own strengths and values regarding personal growth onto my partner.

I did too, and although some of this growth was due to her prodding me to better myself she didn't take a similar route herself. As well intentioned as it was, I can also see how it added to the engulfment she was feeling. Showing we were on different levels that could not be denied (not for lack of trying). Leading to more negative projections on her part, struggling with the boundaries, which lead to me working on being even more positive/making sure I walked the walk, and the cycles just continued. Until the relationship stopped and we both felt engulfed by abandonment (as well as some relief).

[apollotech]

"The principle is the same; in "theory" they are similar - but the potentially (emotionally) destructive results make them two very dissimilar scenarios.

I sometimes feel exactly the same way as you about re-engaging - but then I stop and question why I might be continuing to view her as someone whom I need to "save"; someone who is childlike and is in need of my guidance (as the wiser "parent".  What's the payoff for me? There must be one if I consider the possibility of allowing her back into my life after all of the emotional devastation she has caused - no one is completely altruistic, myself included.  Wouldn't it be more beneficial for her if I view her as a completely autonomous adult who doesn't need anyone to "swoop in" to help her - as an autonomous adult who gets to figure out her journey and make her own decisions and live with the results - just like I do? That's really the only hope she has for healing - all the white knights and rescuers can't do her healing for her.

Until I get very, very clear on my own motives, I won't re-engage with her on any level.  I'm definitely not there yet.

And I'm not taking you to task on any of this apollotech - I'm sure you've been thinking about all of these things.  Just mulling it all over out loud in a public forum."

jhk,

You have posed some very good questions/thoughts about my thinking. I too have thought along the lines that you have, even so far as to believe that my interference in her life might be arrogance on my behalf. Her life works for her. She seems "happy" in it as it is. Who am I to tell her that it could be better? She has never asked for my help in regards to her life.

You are also correct, I do not owe her anything. I don't feel that I am attempting to play the role of rescuer or savior, but, I also don't know what role I would be playing; I question that. Why would I want to attempt something without a clear definition/undetstanding of my role in said something? I also question (and this is tied to the above paragraph) why I feel that I need to do anything for her as I have never felt the need to extend my help to another woman after we've split. Am I simply trying to parent her? Is this simply due to my seeing her disorder as a problem?

Your questions/comments are always welcomed by me. I wish that I could answer your questions and mine. At this point, I am still trying to form a "why". So far, I have failed at the task.

[Achaya]

Apollo, I have been asking myself the same questions raised here by you and by jhkbuzz. I am currently maintaining no contact with my ex because I am still deeply emotionally involved with her and my recovery would be derailed if I had contact with her. My ex strongly expressed her preference that I remain in her life or return to it when I feel I am able. She specifically requested that I call her if I need anything---she did not ask for my help for herself. When I asked her where she would get support if she needs it for the breakup she said she would handle that herself and shut me out.

I have noticed that my felt need to reach out is related to several things:

There still is a belief in me that my ex is suffering from a lack of insight and information about the workings of her disorder, and if I were to tell her more of what I have learned she would seize it and run with it. This is a false belief, that she would seize it and run with it. I have in the past offered her information about personal issues of hers that she has shared, and she has generally read some part of it, but she certainly hasn't devoured the text. She also has been in therapy most of her adult life and can try to get similar information from a therapist.

If your ex was never in therapy, that is another matter. I persuaded one of my personality disordered exes to go to therapy and he found it very transformative. Actually, he said he was persuaded more by my example, because I changed a lot from my first course of therapy and he witnessed that. I can see why you would want to share some of what you have learned about BPD, in the hopes that your ex might benefit from the information.

I do think it is much more challenging to deal with a breakup when we are uncertain how much agency or autonomy was involved in the ex's behavior, versus the influence of the disorder. The same was true while my ex and I were together. When she withdrew I would get hurt and angry and would confront her as if she had control over her behavior. She generally responded with a deterministic and fatalistic belief---"I am broken, that is why I do this." Either way, I believed that the patterns could be changed through proper application of proper technologies, but my ex didn't necessarily accept that belief.

There is also the factor that we do not really know if the people we loved so much are "okay." My ex was rarely okay. She might be worse off now. Even when they appear to be okay, unless they are newly in love, they often are not. So it isn't like the normal situation, where someone leaves us or we leave them and we can generally be confident regarding their ability to function as an adult. My ex gave me very strong messages that I could make her feel okay or make her feel "devastated," and I still believe I could stabilize her through my support sometimes. As she was leaving, my ex was still giving me very mixed messages about whether she needed my support.

To be really honest, however, most of my desire to contact my ex is coming from my own emotional needs. Knowing that she is probably vulnerable right now implies to me she has an open USB port to which I can hook up my cable. If I thought she was totally fine and moving on like a normal adult I would not think that. I would assume that I was no longer needed or welcome, least of all as some oversolicitous ex-partner calling up to fuss over the state of her mental health.

During the relationship when my ex was emotionally unavailable to meet my needs, I would try and often would succeed in connecting with her emotionally around her needs instead. This pattern of mine was established in my childhood and I go towards that kind of connection, i.e., care taking, when I can't get intimacy any other way.

I want to stop overextending myself in my relationships, whether they are friendships, romances or anything else. Or at least I want to stop doing that compulsively, as my default strategy for connecting with people who are not fully available to me. This pattern of excessive reaching out has repeatedly led me into relationships with people who are unable and unwilling to take responsibility for themselves, and who are equally unable and unwilling to respond to me. I have to ask myself all the time now, "What's in this for me?" It sounds selfish, but selfish is something I need to learn how to do. If I could be more selfish myself, maybe I wouldn't be so attracted to others who embody that tendency to such an extreme degree.