more on my dillema - and my healing

[maxsterling]

I had an intake appointment today for social services.  Seems pretty clear cut that I am showing symptoms of experiencing trauma.  I qualify for a men's group therapy for domestic violence.  I either start tonight, or next Monday, depending on how things go.

Tonight is the night we sleep in the same house again, in different rooms.  W has been applying for jobs today.  Might be good to go to group to stay out of the house, since W will be at home.   

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

 

Hang in there... .!

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Did you end up attending the meeting? I hope your night back home went okay. You've sure been through a lot lately. I'm glad you are looking out for yourself. Hang in there.

[married21years]

good luck bud in the same boat

[maxsterling]

No.  I didn't go to group for a few reasons - 1) wanted to face the issue head on.  Can't keep running.  2) wanted to make sure I was set up in the other room with plenty of time.

We mostly avoided each other.   She gave me some speech about how the only reason she is looking for a job is because she doesn't feel secure with me.  Good Lord!  I helped her with a little paperwork, and she went to an AA meeting, and then actually bought me an ice cream and brought home. 

[Verbena]

Your wife lives in your house, doesn't lift a finger to the home's upkeep, draws her government checks while you have actually have a job, goes from one appointment after another thanks to the insurance your job provides, verbally and physically abuses you--and SHE doesn't feel secure because of YOU? 

Max, she is setting you up for something. 

[maxsterling]

Your wife lives in your house, doesn't lift a finger to the home's upkeep, draws her government checks while you have actually have a job, goes from one appointment after another thanks to the insurance your job provides, verbally and physically abuses you--and SHE doesn't feel secure because of YOU? 

Max, she is setting you up for something. 

Well, that's the reality.  She's in the "I'm the victim mode" right now.  As for what she can legally do - not much except make false claims and file for divorce.  I just need to make sure my side of the road is clean.  She seemed a little warmer to me yesterday until I actually got home, then it was weirdness and full-on black.  Part of me wonders if she is upset right now because she wants me to extend a full olive branch and forgive and forget, but I am not doing that, and that frustrates her. 

[maxsterling]

And back to bizarre world today... .

Her sending me a string of text messages blaming me for calling myself a victim of domestic abuse... . Telling me that I am in the wrong for labeling her an abuser, and that she is a good person with anger and rage issues.

I am not calling myself a victim.  I actually entirely agree with her statement that she is basically a good person with anger and rage issues.  But in the eyes of the law, and the crisis center, I am a victim of domestic abuse - that's the label society gives, not me.

Anyway, I've mostly just ignored her text messages.  

I think she is mad that I qualify for grant-funded trauma healing services and group therapy - the same as her.  I feel it is an attempt to minimize my experiences.

[Verbena]

Max, my daughter (almost 30) is BPD.  She is nowhere near as extreme as your wife, but we've had some very bad times in the past. 

In my experience, after a bad episode there was a lull followed by a concerted effort to re-write history and shift blame.  My daughter is much better, but she still has a VERY hard time accepting the reality of her behavior. 

This is textbook BPD, as I know you know, and will mostly likely ramp up until she breaks you, until you agree with her, thus allowing her to not feel at fault.  Two years ago after a big mess with my daughter, that is what happened to me.  I stood my ground and would not allow her to bully me into her way of thinking.  She finally gave up but it took months, and it got very ugly before it all ended.  Now we're in a good place but it was excruciating going through it. 

Be prepared for your wife to try to badger you into taking all the blame off her shoulders.  And like you said earlier, keep your side of the road clean because she might stop at nothing to destroy you. 

[maxsterling]

Thanks, Verbena, as you know this is a very difficult situation, and yes, very textbook BPD.  I'm thinking her behavior the past few days has a very deep root in shame and past events. 

Let's put it this way, people (not just those with BPD) get most upset when others imply or state something about them that they feel deep inside is true.  I am sure previous partners have called my wife abusive or a bad person.  And I actually think she knows enough about emotional abuse and PTSD and the law to know she has fault here.  And thus, the blame shift. 

And that's the reality - based upon legal definitions - she *is* responsible for domestic abuse upon me.  And I don't think she could find any therapist, lawyer, friend, or resource that would say otherwise.   And really - she's damn lucky.  Had our genders been reversed, the police would likely have arrested her.  Instead, they walked me out to my car, told me "she's crazy" and that I should just divorce her. 

[married21years]

you are a victim  dont let her gaslight you, she has to be responsible.   

[maxsterling]

you are a victim  dont let her gaslight you, she has to be responsible.   

Well, by definition, yes.  Not sure if I like identifying myself that way, though because it feels helpless and hopeless.  But when I go ask for help, it seems like those that work in the social services industry are extremely concerned for my situation.  Maybe I am in complete denial, but dispite the vitriol right now, I don't feel immediate danger.

Gaslighting, for sure.  She's playing the "victim" card big time today  and trying to go way off topic with any and all communication.  At some point I am going to need her to own up to her half up it, which is pretty severe - basically that hitting is physical abuse and is wrong and inexcusable.   I'm not sure how much more patient I will be here, though.  MC tomorrow night, and I know I still have the OOP I can serve.  I just need to hear her say she has a willingness to work on the violence issue.

[married21years]

youre in a tricky situation, you need to protect  yourself and set boundaries and acceptable behavior in MC    if she breaks this use the authorities,

you  would if the sexes were reversed

[Cat Familiar]

I just need to hear her say she has a willingness to work on the violence issue.

Careful, Max. As you know, pwBPD can say anything and make promises they don't keep. Watch her behavior and that means verbal as well as texting.

[KateCat]

max, I can't get past the knowledge that you've been attacked suddenly. You've been hit in the back of the head.

You are in extreme danger. Especially if you are alone with your wife. Especially if you expect her to "own up to" her battering.

In the kitchen, there are knives. In the bathroom or bedroom, there are scissors. In the garage, there is a hammer. There's likely a weapon in every room of your home.

I really wish you had a different plan than being at home alone with your wife.

[maxsterling]

I just need to hear her say she has a willingness to work on the violence issue.

Careful, Max. As you know, pwBPD can say anything and make promises they don't keep. Watch her behavior and that means verbal as well as texting.

Exactly.  I feel like I am living on an alien planet right now.  The way she is acting right now just seems so counterintuitive to me.  I don't think she is willing to concede *anything* right now - including the very basic idea that hitting someone else is wrong.  I mean, if someone was hitting her, threatening violence against her, or threatening his/her own life, I would hope she would call police... . right?

[Cat Familiar]

I'll have to agree with KateCat. Max, it's not a question of "if" but rather a question of "when." As someone who has experienced domestic violence, I know how easy it is to  think "it won't happen again." Or, "I'll see the signs of it starting now that I know it's possible."

This is a very dangerous situation for you, as all the professionals who are experienced in this area have warned you.

[Cat Familiar]

Exactly.  I feel like I am living on an alien planet right now.  The way she is acting right now just seems so counterintuitive to me.  I don't think she is willing to concede *anything* right now - including the very basic idea that hitting someone else is wrong.  I mean, if someone was hitting her, threatening violence against her, or threatening his/her own life, I would hope she would call police... . right?

This is very troubling to hear. My ex-husband always briefly had some guilt and remorse over hitting me. That she has none and claims that it's your fault is very scary.

[Notwendy]

IMHO Verbena is spot on.

My mother rewrites history when she has behaved badly. Sometimes to the point where what she did actually didn't happen for her- it was erased from her memory as she dissociated from it.

And the gaslighting too. We had to pretend it didn't happen. Only once I became an adult, I refused to pretend.

[Verbena]

I have to agree that your wife's lack of remorse is very troubling.  Even if she was acting remorseful another assault at some point is still very likely, but the way she is acting now makes me think she will attack you you sooner rather than later.  

If you're waiting for her to admit what she's done, feel bad, and agree to get help, you may be waiting a long time.  Most importantly, any attempt by you to get her to admit that she is an abusive person and capable of violence is going to send her spiraling downward.  With that will come violence.  

YOu're sitting on a timebomb, Max.  There is no way this is a safe situation.  

[maxsterling]

I guess these are more stern warnings... .

Thanks. 

I still have a hard time thinking she is that dangerous.   But then again, she is that unpredictable and that out of control and therefore, that dangerous (logically).

She was in the mood to exchange angry emails earlier today.  I refused to return the anger (refused to participate).  Now she has been quiet a few hours. 

[formflier]

 

Max,

One of the reasons I think charges help these situations is that she can spend her time blaming the judge... .the jury... .etc etc... .let them label her... .not you.

She will most likely still blame you... .but you would have company.

Great job ignoring the emails... .I had the hardest time learning to do that... .it was hooked in with me learning to not take things seriously.

Last thought... .there is no requirement for you to have the same history as your wife... .

Although... .I believe that is a requirement to  believe that she is getting better ... .getting away from DV.

I don't see any long term solution that does not include acceptance and remorse or her part for assaulting you... .no ifs ands... .buts... .she did it... .it was wrong.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Maybe I am in complete denial, but dispite the vitriol right now, I don't feel immediate danger.

Immediate is the key word there. You do know her very well, so perhaps your assessment of the risk is reasonably accurate, although I'm going to say that part of being a victim of abuse is to minimize the abuse.

You need to be safe not just today but next month. So even if you do believe you are safe today, that isn't quite what you are looking for!

At some point I am going to need her to own up to her half up it, which is pretty severe - basically that hitting is physical abuse and is wrong and inexcusable.

Please don't go there max. That's a dangerous way to talk.

You need to accept that she isn't owning up to physically abusing you and assaulting you. That is who she is, right now, today. That is your reality. Accept it as it is, and choose what actions you can take to deal with your reality.

When you say you "need" her to do or say something, that is dangerous... .because you have no control, and no ability to make it happen. Don't make your safety depend on something like that.

[Notwendy]

They don't own up to things for several reasons:

1)It makes them feel bad and bad feelings can't be felt so they project them out- raging... .blaming.

2) If they are real bad, they dissasociate from them. Block them to the point that the memory is gone, and also rewrite history over them, and then gaslight others. Family members go along with this to keep the peace- because an attempt to get them to be accountable can result in #1

3) Attempting to get them to be accountable can trigger an intense shame bomb in them which is very painful. They perceive this as coming from you. You did this to them! They snap into victim mode. Then you are on the triangle. People can play more than one role at a time. Once in victim mode, you are the persecutor. To deal with the bad feelings they believe you are bringing upon you- they attack you- verbally or more.

Expecting this to be different is probably like expecting someone with two broken legs to jump up and walk. Maybe this can be done some with a skilled therapist in the safety of their office, but possibly not. A therapist may know not to got there and do something else more effective. At home, alone, the two of you, is not likely to be a safe place to do this.

[Cat Familiar]

Even if she does "own up to her half of it," it doesn't mean it won't happen again.

My experience was that apologies and remorse had no predictive value about future behavior. It's that neural pathway groove that becomes a well-worn response to internal distress. The more they engage in violent acting out, the more likely it's going to be the chosen response.

[Verbena]

The words "own up to her half of it" concern me.  They imply that you are 50 percent responsible for her physically attacking you.  You are not.  She is 100 percent responsible for it. 

This is something I find interesting.  Your wife said she didn't remember the incident from a few weeks ago.  You left the destruction she created in the house and she saw it when she got out of the hospital and asked who did it.  She claimed not to remember tearing the house apart or physically attacking you, but she did express remorse.  This time, however, she isn't denying that she attacked you.  She seems to remember it.  Yet, she is expressing no remorse.

I don't know what any of that means, but it seems significant.   

[Notwendy]

I think she is in a place emotionally that is so scary for her she can not process this at all.

The closest I can come to something like this is when my father died. My mother did not show any grief. Not one tear . It was shocking. We were all sobbing and I cried for months- still do sometime.

My mom also was a bear around the funeral, dysragulating and raging at everyone and every thing. Then she got really rigid about things, called up relatives and painted me black. For a long time I tried to hold her accountable for this and she completely denied it. How do I know she did it? She had called up my H  and his family too.

It was only later that she could tell me she misses my dad. I was surprised because for all appearances it looked as if she didn't give a hoot. She did, but I think her grief was so much that she was dysregulated the whole time and not even in touch with any feelings. Remorse might be a reflection of how dysregulated their feelings are- this is just my guess at this.

Which is one reason I think people can be abusive. When they are, they are in an altered state of anger, rage, dissociation. Then when they are themselves again, they disconnect from the "person" who did that even if at some level, they know that person is them too.

Max, your wife may be feeling shame and fear, to the point where she isn't processing it. I don't know if this can mean anything about your safety or not.

[maxsterling]

I think she is in a place emotionally that is so scary for her she can not process this at all.

Me too.

She did the "blow up my phone/email" thing yesterday early afternoon.  I refused to participate, and did not reciprocate her anger.  Eventually, I ignored her, and did not hear from her for a few hours.

On the way home, I stopped at the store to get a little produce.  I asked if she needed anything, mainly to gage her mood before coming home.  She said she wanted a sweet treat.  Then she said she had made dinner and it was on the stove.  That's the first time she has made dinner for herself in a year.  Literally.  She then said she had lost some computer devices, and looked everywhere for them.  I assume when she realized they were missing was when she blew up my phone.  I spent a long time looking, came up empty, and then she fell asleep on the sofa watching tv.   Suspiciously, the air mattress I was sleeping on had a leak.  So we both wound up sleeping in the same bed.  She was in no way hostile last night. 

In the backwards world of BPD, I think a large part of her dysregulation is an abandonment trigger from me staying out of the house and out of the bedroom for awhile.  In other words - reaction to boundary enforcement. 

Part of my safety plan is this:

1) always make sure my phone is on and charged and on my person, if possible.  Never let her get between me and my phone.

2) make sure her car is never parked behind mine, and in the "get away" position.  I'm considering hiding a spare key for the car somewhere in the yard, just in case.

3) My safety comes first in every situation.  If my safety requires me to be untruthful - so be it.  My safety is much, much more important than the continuance of this marriage. 

[Notwendy]

Get a real mattress

There could be mysterious leaks in you condoms too.

[Verbena]

notwendy is so right. It was just a week ago that you had to call the police on her.  You obtained an OOP and seriously considered serving her with it and removing her from your house.  Then you decided to let her stay but sleep in different rooms with your bedroom door locked.  Now you're back to sleeping in the same bed. 

All your safety plans regarding your phone and the position of the cars will be for nothing if she decides to rage on you in the middle of the night, which you've said she has done before. 

And if she gets pregnant, your nightmare hasn't even begun yet.