She/He should not have forgotten this.

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

It may be helpful, in de-personalizing these experiences, to understand that for many pwBPD, someone else giving them stuff or "helping" them, can feel like control, obligation, dependency.  It can be a really unpleasant aspect of the relationship.  If we have the idea that "I did X for him, he should love me for that," we are actually providing some basis for that feeling.

It's a different matter to give or care freely, without an expectation of acquiring an ownership interest.  That usually feels better on both sides.

[patientandclear]

It may be helpful, in de-personalizing these experiences, to understand that for many pwBPD, someone else giving them stuff or "helping" them, can feel like control, obligation, dependency.  It can be a really unpleasant aspect of the relationship.  If we have the idea that "I did X for him, he should love me for that," we are actually providing some basis for that feeling.

It's a different matter to give or care freely, without an expectation of acquiring an ownership interest.  That usually feels better on both sides.

[rotiroti]

It may be helpful, in de-personalizing these experiences, to understand that for many pwBPD, someone else giving them stuff or "helping" them, can feel like control, obligation, dependency.  It can be a really unpleasant aspect of the relationship.  If we have the idea that "I did X for him, he should love me for that," we are actually providing some basis for that feeling.

It's a different matter to give or care freely, without an expectation of acquiring an ownership interest.  That usually feels better on both sides.

That's a good perspective, I always suspected my uBPDex is strongly triggered by intimacy. On the last explosion, she specifically listed all the things I've purchased for the house (AC, groceries, tent that she wanted for camping, etc)

[once removed]

giving freely and financial boundaries were both mentioned, and there is a balance.

when we gave, were we expecting appreciation and/or reciprocity? thats not necessarily giving freely. when we didnt receive these things, did we continue giving? that may be a sign of unsteady financial, emotional, physical, etc, boundaries.

take a very simple example from a discussion ive had with my friends:

i feel inclined to hold the door open for people. id say at least 75% of them say thank you. when they dont, im , i think, rightfully annoyed. it boggles my mind, and i wouldnt hold the door open for that person again. i will continue to hold the door open for others not dependent on a thank you, but because i value doing it. it may be natural to be resentful when we dont feel appreciated for our giving, but how do we react when and if that happens? and do we resent ourselves for our reaction or lack thereof?

during that conversation a question was asked of me, and a thought was offered.

question: should we hold the door open with expectation of a thank you? (giving freely)

thought: man i really hate it when somebody holds the door open for me and im a mile away and have to jog to get to the door and then be expected to say thank you. (boundary)

a person can go from victim, to survivor, to thriver  

www.goodtherapy.org/blog/victim-survivor-thriver-trauma-stages

[DyingLove]

giving freely and financial boundaries were both mentioned, and there is a balance.

when we gave, were we expecting appreciation and/or reciprocity? thats not necessarily giving freely. when we didnt receive these things, did we continue giving? that may be a sign of unsteady financial, emotional, physical, etc, boundaries.

take a very simple example from a discussion ive had with my friends:

i feel inclined to hold the door open for people. id say at least 75% of them say thank you. when they dont, im , i think, rightfully annoyed. it boggles my mind, and i wouldnt hold the door open for that person again. i will continue to hold the door open for others not dependent on a thank you, but because i value doing it. it may be natural to be resentful when we dont feel appreciated for our giving, but how do we react when and if that happens? and do we resent ourselves for our reaction or lack thereof?

during that conversation a question was asked of me, and a thought was offered.

question: should we hold the door open with expectation of a thank you? (giving freely)

thought: man i really hate it when somebody holds the door open for me and im a mile away and have to jog to get to the door and then be expected to say thank you. (boundary)

a person can go from victim, to survivor, to thriver  

www.goodtherapy.org/blog/victim-survivor-thriver-trauma-stages

I never felt the need for a thank you or pat on the back.  Rarely got either anyway.  BUT because I sorta gave under false pretenses, the pretense that my relationship was going to be forever, now I feel slighted.  A thank you will NOT help at this point. It was a learning experience for sure.

I see that "tit for tat" keeps getting mentioned in this post, and that is not what this was all about.  It was about the fact that they should have noticed at least by now, the things we did for them.  In other words, after my breakup, does she realize that now she's got to come home and do the cooking cleaning and laundry, and before, it was all done by me (most of it).  Is she saying that: Gee I miss that he did it!

[cosmonaut]

question: should we hold the door open with expectation of a thank you? (giving freely)

This is an excellent question.

I think what we have to keep our focus on here is that when we give, we are the ones who are acting.  This is us.  We are the ones who are making the choice.  We can't shirk that responsibility and we can't cast the blame on anyone else.  If we are unhappy with our choices, then we need to look at the person responsible. 

Are we happy with the choices we made?  Why did we make the choices we did?  Would we do it again?  How would we know what to do in the future?

[Mr.Downtrodden]

question: should we hold the door open with expectation of a thank you? (giving freely)

This is an excellent question.

I think what we have to keep our focus on here is that when we give, we are the ones who are acting.  This is us.  We are the ones who are making the choice.  We can't shirk that responsibility and we can't cast the blame on anyone else.  If we are unhappy with our choices, then we need to look at the person responsible.  

Are we happy with the choices we made?  Why did we make the choices we did?  Would we do it again?  How would we know what to do in the future?

I agree with DyingLove, my reflections of of my r/s with my uBPD ex gf is not about anger felt for 'tit for tat' on an item by item basis.  Never was.  I did a lot for her during our time together, from being an emotional support / listener and forgiving soul to totally cleaning out her backyard -  which was a complete mess), cleaning her place (she was/is lazy) and even during our post r/s get together, when she was thug-robbed due to her own impulsiveness, I lent her some $$$.   She told me she'd repay me when she got back home, and I told her it was no big deal, because she was unhurt from the event. In the end, she just refused to talk with me (when I checked in to see how she was doing a couple of days later), so, I  turned off the friendship light, closed the door and went NC. Yeah. I'm in control now.

I'm looking at it from a perspective like DyingLove - the overall r/s.  Yes, I gave more. More than I should have, in all honesty. And I forgave... .the cheating, the manipulations, many times under the guise of her taking responsibility.  In the end, it was one continuous lie traveling down a dim-lit winding road. I hoped her words and promises would be true and valid - that's what I mean when I expect a return on my investment of my emotions and time spent together.

I'm not doing that anymore.

This forum and everything that transpired has provided me with a handy-dandy road map for the future.  I'm not driving down BPD lane anymore.  I'm not going to let myself be love bombed  and promises of the Days Of Wine and Roses.  I'm going to be tough emotionally to the point where it might interfere. The next woman i meet, it will be on equal footing emotionally, going slow and natural. I'll be giving to her, since that is my nature, if she turns out to be worth it.  

[DyingLove]

question: should we hold the door open with expectation of a thank you? (giving freely)

This is an excellent question.

I think what we have to keep our focus on here is that when we give, we are the ones who are acting.  This is us.  We are the ones who are making the choice.  We can't shirk that responsibility and we can't cast the blame on anyone else.  If we are unhappy with our choices, then we need to look at the person responsible.  

Are we happy with the choices we made?  Why did we make the choices we did?  Would we do it again?  How would we know what to do in the future?

I agree with DyingLove, my reflections of of my r/s with my uBPD ex gf is not about anger felt for 'tit for tat' on an item by item basis.  Never was.  I did a lot for her during our time together, from being an emotional support / listener and forgiving soul to totally cleaning out her backyard -  which was a complete mess), cleaning her place (she was/is lazy) and even during our post r/s get together, when she was thug-robbed due to her own impulsiveness, I lent her some $$$.   She told me she'd repay me when she got back home, and I told her it was no big deal, because she was unhurt from the event. In the end, she just refused to talk with me (when I checked in to see how she was doing a couple of days later), so, I  turned off the friendship light, closed the door and went NC. Yeah. I'm in control now.

I'm looking at it from a perspective like DyingLove - the overall r/s.  Yes, I gave more. More than I should have, in all honesty. And I forgave... .the cheating, the manipulations, many times under the guise of her taking responsibility.  In the end, it was one continuous lie traveling down a dim-lit winding road. I hoped her words and promises would be true and valid - that's what I mean when I expect a return on my investment of my emotions and time spent together.

I'm not doing that anymore.

This forum and everything that transpired has provided me with a handy-dandy road map for the future.  I'm not driving down BPD lane anymore.  I'm not going to let myself be love bombed  and promises of the Days Of Wine and Roses.  I'm going to be tough emotionally to the point where it might interfere. The next woman i meet, it will be on equal footing emotionally, going slow and natural. I'll be giving to her, since that is my nature, if she turns out to be worth it.  

Nicely and accurately put Mr.downtrodden.  My exact sentiments. We did for them because we loved them.  We were glad to give. Exactly.  But we wonder if they ever think about how good they had it? How much we gave them?  How little they may have given in return?  We already know what we did and how they reacted, but today, are they seeing the light?  Have they or will they learn anything? will they ever have remorse if something was their fault truely?  All these things.  They won't heal us completely, but its' nice to know that somewhere down the line they lowered the iron curtain and saw what actually was.  It's all in conversation, unless you expect your ex to call up and say: By the way, thanks for taking better care of me than I would myself!  Ain't never gonna happen.

[once removed]

i think i get it. you dont just feel unappreciated, you feel stabbed in the back by the person you gave to. that is certainly different from a person who doesnt receive a thank you from a stranger they held the door open for, and that breeds a unique pain. you feel betrayed by someone close to you.

"My exact sentiments. We did for them because we loved them.  We were glad to give. Exactly.  <----giving freely

"But we wonder if they ever think about how good they had it? How much we gave them?  How little they may have given in return?  We already know what we did and how they reacted, but today, are they seeing the light?  Have they or will they learn anything? will they ever have remorse if something was their fault truely?  All these things." <----even expecting this in hindsight, is not giving freely.

but id ask, have you accepted that this person has a personality disorder and experiences thoughts, feelings, life in general, very differently than you? i understand youre "out", but have you lowered your expectations? its not fair to expect more out of a person than we know theyre capable of. ive had friends i felt i was a great friend to when they needed me, but when i needed them, id have been better off talking to a brick wall. lowering my expectations has improved those friendships, lowered my resentment (a common side effect when we expect more of a person than they can give), and i have reasonably adjusted what i give. its in my power. especially when it comes to a PD, accepting it helps a great deal as far as depersonalizing what feels very personal.

and i understand that it still feels very personal. i spent time with my ex even when id have preferred not to, because i was worried about how shed feel in my absence. so having been quickly and suddenly replaced, i experienced thoughts like "ARE YOU KIDDING ME? IF ID HAVE KNOWN SHE WAS CAPABLE OF THAT ID HAVE ENDED IT FAR SOONER." my relationship transpired as it did. it was easier for me to accept when i realized any given alternative, i might have coped with worse. what if id ended it and then was replaced? could i have handled that? im not sure. but it didnt help me to beat myself up for what seemed like mistakes at the time. furthermore, i made progress when i realized that pain was tied to my expectations.

you are expecting this person to see the light. try to lower your expectations of that. as far as your questions are concerned, i think you answered them:

"It's all in conversation, unless you expect your ex to call up and say: By the way, thanks for taking better care of me than I would myself!  Ain't never gonna happen."

so what does it matter? you will likely never know what your ex will think or learn. its about you now and what lessons you will learn. have you been taught that giving more of yourself than you would prefer to give is a normal relationship? do you feel you need to prove love? do you feel resentful as a result? do you feel material possessions are expected of you to give? is any of this a pattern, or just a one time learning experience?

any or none of these may apply to you. what im getting at is, what do you feel is the wound keeping you stuck?

[Suzn]

But we wonder if they ever think about how good they had it? How much we gave them?  How little they may have given in return?  We already know what we did and how they reacted, but today, are they seeing the light?  Have they or will they learn anything? will they ever have remorse if something was their fault truely?

My exBPDgf showed remorse lots of times. It kept me hooked. The behaviors persisted.

What you wrote above? It doesn't work that way. If you were devalued, you triggered a core wound. That means the reaction you got from your ex was from her childhood. Seeing the light comes from self awareness and until someone is uncomfortable enough to see things need to change it's doubtful it will. That goes equally for nons. Your value was to sooth the pain from past hurts.

They will find someone else who has poor boundaries, find the hook and idolize them just like they did you so that they can distract themselves from the pain of the core wound trigger. This is not love, this is need.

unless you expect your ex to call up and say: By the way, thanks for taking better care of me than I would myself!  

We nons spent plenty of time not taking care of ourselves by not having good boundaries when we started to see things weren't reciprocal. We loved the idolization phase because we were missing something too.

For me, my relationship centered around "family", my ex and her children were an instant family, it was the family I never had. It gave me purpose and worth. That was the hook for me. What was the hook for you? Think back, what were you missing when you found your ex and allowed her to put you on a pedestal?

[Turkish]

I loaned a months' rent to an old family friend. Kind of like a little sister. She's dBPD (and several other co-morbid mental illnesses). I asked her point-blank: "how are you going to pay me back?" She said when her tax return came. That time has come and gone, and I haven't gotten so much as an effort to pay me back a cent. I knew at the time it was a gift. I know who she is, and her history since I knew her as a kid 30 years ago. Sure, we aren't in a romantic r/s (though the possibilitiy was there back in the day). I know her history, how she's limited, and who she is. Given the lack of effort on paying it back, I'd never do it again. It is how it is.  Her brother stopped short of calling me stupid, realizing who I am.

What's unhealthy is doing for others with an agenda, hidden or otherwise.  With my Ex, I did it again and again, expecting something in return, even though I already knew who she was.

[enlighten me]

Everything I did was supposedly building towards a stable future. I now see it as their childlike sense of entitlement. As a child everything is taken care of for you. You have no responsibilities. This emotional imaturirity is what we have been dealing with.

[going places]

What were those things that you did that they just took for granted or didn't appreciate.

I cooked (from scratch) anything he wanted. I read labels and kept the salt intake low, because high blood pressure runs deep in his side of the family.

I cleaned. The house, laundry, the cars, took out the trash 8 out of 10 weeks.

I mowed the lawn, kept the gardens.

I raised a lot of our food (huge garden, small orchard) and canned. Made home made applesauce, jams, jellies, etc.

I home educated the kids from grade 3 to graduation.

I made a menu for the week, grocery shopped, and prepared those dishes.

I baked (always something sweet on the cake plate!).

I paid all the bills, handled all the repairmen / insurance issues, etc.

I negotiated all big ticket purchases.

I painted, learned how to hang drywall, did small repairs around the home; and what I could not do, I would buy the items needed for that repair and bring them home so he could fix it.

Oh, and I worked outside of the home! For 6 summers, along with my regular job, I worked a 2nd job so my son could play travel sports. Off and on for the last 15 years I have had 2 or 3 jobs at the same time.

I worked 4-6 nights a week.

We have three AMAZING kids together... .and he's an 'out of site out of mind' kind of guy... .he rarely if ever texts the girls, never calls them or tries to see them. He only communicates with the boy, because in HIS MIND the boy is 'my favorite'... .it's so messed up.

I talked to him, I cared about him

I loved him.

I was there for him, no matter what.

I supported our family for almost 2 years while he went to college to get his degree.

I encouraged him to go back to school to finish his degree.

I was his cheerleader... .propping him up.

When he got fired, I stayed calm; told him everything would be ok, and made sure that it was.

At the end of the day, he appreciated nothing.

It was 'never good enough' or 'just plain not enough'.

I could give him the moon and the stars on a sliver platter and he would say "oh, i wanted a planet too' and when I gave that it would be "oh, the one with the rings around it" and I would give that, then he'd say "oh, but I like gold platters' and I would give that and he would say "this isn't going to work out, you're too difficult".

What?

Yeah, welcome to my OLD life. HA HA

My hope is that one day I will meet someone and I will have a healthy 2 way relationship where I receive as much as I give; and it's because we genuinely love each other, and WANT to give and receive in a healthy way.

[DyingLove]

i think i get it. you dont just feel unappreciated, you feel stabbed in the back by the person you gave to. that is certainly different from a person who doesnt receive a thank you from a stranger they held the door open for, and that breeds a unique pain. you feel betrayed by someone close to you.

"My exact sentiments. We did for them because we loved them.  We were glad to give. Exactly.  <----giving freely


Yep, Freely.


"But we wonder if they ever think about how good they had it? How much we gave them?  How little they may have given in return?  We already know what we did and how they reacted, but today, are they seeing the light?  Have they or will they learn anything? will they ever have remorse if something was their fault truely?  All these things." <----even expecting this in hindsight, is not giving freely.


Here is the twist-> They broke the rules!  How does forever translate to only four years?  I have to say BAIT AND SWITCH on their part, sick or not.


but id ask, have you accepted that this person has a personality disorder and experiences thoughts, feelings, life in general, very differently than you? i understand youre "out", but have you lowered your expectations? its not fair to expect more out of a person than we know theyre capable of. ive had friends i felt i was a great friend to when they needed me, but when i needed them, id have been better off talking to a brick wall. lowering my expectations has improved those friendships, lowered my resentment (a common side effect when we expect more of a person than they can give), and i have reasonably adjusted what i give. its in my power. especially when it comes to a PD, accepting it helps a great deal as far as depersonalizing what feels very personal.   I do accept, and at the same time I don't accept!


A toddler should not be behind the wheel of a car, nor pretending to be an adult. We all see justice differently. And justice does not necessarily mean a lynching either.


and i understand that it still feels very personal. i spent time with my ex even when id have preferred not to, because i was worried about how shed feel in my absence. so having been quickly and suddenly replaced, i experienced thoughts like "ARE YOU KIDDING ME? IF ID HAVE KNOWN SHE WAS CAPABLE OF THAT ID HAVE ENDED IT FAR SOONER." my relationship transpired as it did. it was easier for me to accept when i realized any given alternative, i might have coped with worse. what if id ended it and then was replaced? could i have handled that? im not sure. but it didnt help me to beat myself up for what seemed like mistakes at the time. furthermore, i made progress when i realized that pain was tied to my expectations.

you are expecting this person to see the light. try to lower your expectations of that. as far as your questions are concerned, i think you answered them:

"It's all in conversation, unless you expect your ex to call up and say: By the way, thanks for taking better care of me than I would myself!  Ain't never gonna happen."

so what does it matter? you will likely never know what your ex will think or learn. its about you now and what lessons you will learn. have you been taught that giving more of yourself than you would prefer to give is a normal relationship? do you feel you need to prove love? do you feel resentful as a result? do you feel material possessions are expected of you to give? is any of this a pattern, or just a one time learning experience?


In a sense, it does matter. Why? Because I'm here. This place is for me and you and others that need to talk and blurt things out that would otherwise cause misery to hold in.  We need to talk and to do it here.  So just as everything in BPD is something to learn, so is this.



any or none of these may apply to you. what im getting at is, what do you feel is the wound keeping you stuck?



Believe me, I'm getting better, but I am still part of the residue of that explosion.  I have scars that will always be there no matter how much skin grows over them.  I wish I was an etch-a-sketch, turn me upside down and shake, and Voila!  It's all gone.  Thank you OnceRemoved, Just as I needed to speak, you needed to answer.  It's all important, every last word.

[DyingLove]

But we wonder if they ever think about how good they had it? How much we gave them?  How little they may have given in return?  We already know what we did and how they reacted, but today, are they seeing the light?  Have they or will they learn anything? will they ever have remorse if something was their fault truely?

My exBPDgf showed remorse lots of times. It kept me hooked. The behaviors persisted.

What you wrote above? It doesn't work that way. If you were devalued, you triggered a core wound. That means the reaction you got from your ex was from her childhood. Seeing the light comes from self awareness and until someone is uncomfortable enough to see things need to change it's doubtful it will. That goes equally for nons. Your value was to sooth the pain from past hurts.

They will find someone else who has poor boundaries, find the hook and idolize them just like they did you so that they can distract themselves from the pain of the core wound trigger. This is not love, this is need.

unless you expect your ex to call up and say: By the way, thanks for taking better care of me than I would myself!  

We nons spent plenty of time not taking care of ourselves by not having good boundaries when we started to see things weren't reciprocal. We loved the idolization phase because we were missing something too.

For me, my relationship centered around "family", my ex and her children were an instant family, it was the family I never had. It gave me purpose and worth. That was the hook for me. What was the hook for you? Think back, what were you missing when you found your ex and allowed her to put you on a pedestal?

Suzn, Yes she put me on the pedestal, I don't think she knew what to do exactly, so she did it all, especially sex.  I did love the Loving and the Pretty Face and, oh that Smile that killed me!   Show me someone that doesn't need anything.  I'd like to learn from them.  I think there is something, a hook, that everyone needs and wants or at least likes!  Thank you Suzn.   I think if I could have seen how "adopting" a new family was gonna go, that would have been the deal killer.  But I tackle all types of hard jobs, and I knew it wouldn't be easy, but still I did it and did not give up.  More than I can say for her.  Not a good way to be starting a Fathers Day.  She took the kid from me too (just as an afterthought). What a mean cruel thing to do.

[rotiroti]

Everyone needs something. I think it's a matter of if you can derive satisfaction from within

[going places]

i think i get it. you dont just feel unappreciated, you feel stabbed in the back by the person you gave to. that is certainly different from a person who doesnt receive a thank you from a stranger they held the door open for, and that breeds a unique pain. you feel betrayed by someone close to you.

"My exact sentiments. We did for them because we loved them.  We were glad to give. Exactly.  <----giving freely

Yes, freely, and for 25 years.

"But we wonder if they ever think about how good they had it?

How much we gave them?  

How little they may have given in return?  

We already know what we did and how they reacted, but today, are they seeing the light?  

Have they or will they learn anything?

will they ever have remorse if something was their fault truely?  

All these things." <----even expecting this in hindsight, is not giving freely.

No, he's a negative pessimist.

Nope, no matter what, it was never 'enough'

He thinks because he went to work and paid bills, and that's IT, he did all the giving... .

Nope, his NPD / ASPD evilness will not allow him to see light.

Nope. He's the smartest person on earth. Just ask him.

Nope.

I gave freely. When ever (rarely) he gave, it came with a heavy cost... .and I had to pay.

but id ask, have you accepted that this person has a personality disorder and experiences thoughts, feelings, life in general, very differently than you?

i understand youre "out", but have you lowered your expectations?

its not fair to expect more out of a person than we know theyre capable of.

ive had friends i felt i was a great friend to when they needed me, but when i needed them, id have been better off talking to a brick wall.

lowering my expectations has improved those friendships, lowered my resentment (a common side effect when we expect more of a person than they can give), and i have reasonably adjusted what i give. its in my power. especially when it comes to a PD, accepting it helps a great deal as far as depersonalizing what feels very personal.   I do accept, and at the same time I don't accept!

We are each, wonderfully and uniquely Created. So, by this definition, everyone is very different than everyone.

I have more respect for myself, and my children, than to 'lower my expectations.

True, never expect to receive from someone, something they have no capacity to give... .and never give to a person, who is the Dead Sea... .always taking in, never giving out, and when you step into the Sea, you die because NOTHING lives in the Dead Sea; the salt poisons everything.

I have more respect for my self than to stay in a relationship that is abusive.

I am worth more than that.

and i understand that it still feels very personal. i spent time with my ex even when id have preferred not to, because i was worried about how shed feel in my absence. so having been quickly and suddenly replaced, i experienced thoughts like "ARE YOU KIDDING ME? IF ID HAVE KNOWN SHE WAS CAPABLE OF THAT ID HAVE ENDED IT FAR SOONER." my relationship transpired as it did. it was easier for me to accept when i realized any given alternative, i might have coped with worse. what if id ended it and then was replaced? could i have handled that? im not sure. but it didnt help me to beat myself up for what seemed like mistakes at the time. furthermore, i made progress when i realized that pain was tied to my expectations.

you are expecting this person to see the light. try to lower your expectations of that. as far as your questions are concerned, i think you answered them:

"It's all in conversation, unless you expect your ex to call up and say: By the way, thanks for taking better care of me than I would myself!  Ain't never gonna happen."

so what does it matter?

you will likely never know what your ex will think or learn.

its about you now and what lessons you will learn.

have you been taught that giving more of yourself than you would prefer to give is a normal relationship?

do you feel you need to prove love?

do you feel resentful as a result? do you feel material possessions are expected of you to give?

is any of this a pattern, or just a one time learning experience?

Boundaries. Firm, boundaries.

Learning what is healthy, and what is unhealthy and what is abusive.

Choosing, healthy, and settling for nothing less.

At first, yes, I wanted everyone to know what I did and what he took advantage of. In time, ZERO spits given. I don't care what anyone thinks, I don't care what he tells anyone. The kids lived thru it, witnessed it, and all 3 know he's a master manipulator. And God knows. So I really don't give a fart about anyone else.

BUT that took time.

Lived Learned, by the Grace of God, I will not repeat the mistakes that I made for 25 years

There is NO excuse for Abuse.

[Mr Hollande]

The suggestions that the generosity some of us showed our exes were about keeping tabs are a bit unsavoury in my opinion.

[going places]

The suggestions that the generosity some of us showed our exes were about keeping tabs are a bit unsavoury in my opinion.

I agree.

[Suzn]

Us: When has the anger gone too far and become detrimental?

Is resentment blocking your healing and recovery

for bpdfamily.com members disengaging from a romantic relationship

You've read the vitriol on the Internet - you may have even participated in it yourself. Here are some quotes on bpdfamily... .

"These people (with BPD) are emotional vampires... ."

"They are all the same, they suck us dry, we are only supply to them, then they move on to another innocent victim... ."

"They are all evil, pure evil... ."

"They hunt for their marks, good and giving people like us, and then they strike... ."

"Watchout, they will suck you back into the relationship - no matter how hard you try to get away... ."

"LOSERS!... ."

So, is this helping us or hurting us?  :)oes this sound more like healthy anger or unbridled resentment and dysfunctional coping?  How do we know when has the anger gone so far as to become detrimental to our healing? This is the topic of this workshop.

Some thoughts to kick off this discussion... .

Healthy Grieving  We all know that it is important that we grieve the end (death) of these relationships.  The grieving cycle, according to Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, M.D includes Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance.  The duration, order, and a degree of each stage varies with the individuals.

Dysfunctional Resentment  Resentment is a mental process in which we repeatedly replay a feeling, and the events leading up to that feeling that angers us.  With resentment, we re-experience and relive events in ways that affect us mentally, emotionally, physiologically and spiritually in destructive ways.

According to Mark Siche (author of Healing from Family Rifts), resentment happens when:

• We feel what people did to us that was unnecessarily mean, hurtful, and disrespectful or humiliating

• What people in our lives did not do for us mean, hurtful, and disrespectful or humiliating

Resentments are often justified - but are they helpful?  

So how does a little venting hurt us?  When we are resentful, we try to balance the wrongs we feel by demeaning the person that hurt us.  We bash them, feel disgust for them, feel hatred or look down in pity... .we may even wish them harm or lash out to hurt them or their reputation.

The problem for us is that we create a dysfunctional and false reality to sooth our pain.  And in doing so we cling to a futile need to be right or be superior, which overrides our capacity to heal and to make healthy changes in our lives... .usually because we don't know any other way to come to grips with the painful feelings of hurt, rejection, and abandonment.  

At bpdfamily.com, the staff has had the opportunity to watch 1,000s of members process the failure of a BPD relationship and clearly, those that exhibit the most vitriol and resentment are the last to heal - if they heal at all.  Lets face it, the hallmark of a BPD relationship is emotional immaturity by both partners. The idea that one partner was healthy (loving and giving) and the other partner was dysfunctional is seriously flawed.  BPD is a real mental illness and a person with this disorder will have a history of failed relationships.   However, an emotionally mature and grounded person does not get into such relationships and even if they accidentally fell into one, they would reassess their decision process and values, make changes - not get caught up in extended makeup/breakup cycles and come back time and time again.

When we are caught up in the resentment, it obscures both our vision and motivation to identify and resolve the issues that plagued us in the relationship... .such as relationship skill (e.g., selecting emotionally impared partners, confusing sex with love, etc.) or even things like our own issues (e.g., co-dependency, narcissistic, schizoid or other traits) or immature

According to Siche holding resentments is choice.  

Are you making the healthy choice?  

If you are angry is it healthy anger or unhealthy anger?

What are examples and signs of unhealthy anger and resentment?

How can we be mindful and change our direction?



We look forward to a meaningful discussion on the subject!

Skippy

I'd like to invite you to read through the Lessons on the Staying board. When I did this I started to realize what I was lacking in the skills department. I started to realize that there were similarities in my and my exes behavior patterns. I started to realize that my own behavior patterns extended to everyone in my life, not just my exBPDgf.

Why did we do this? Because we can. We can heal, we can grow. I had a choice to continue to stay stuck in this anger and continue to paint my ex black or I could make changes in myself going forward. It's work, that's why it's called working on yourself. What will you chose?

The Lessons in Staying are here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206

The skills here are what it takes to be in a healthy relationship, with a pwBPD or otherwise.

[cosmonaut]

Not everyone posting here, but some posts, reflect a "giving to get" approach.  Many, many people have unconsciously internalized this strategy, that we will be loved for what we give.  It's more pernicious that it seems at first blush.  I have benefited from asking myself whether, to any extent, I "give to get" in my relationships, especially those that involved some aspects of abuse.  It can be subtle, and partial.

Or it can be overt and glaring, as in some of the resentment voiced here about "how dare she leave, I paid her bills, I stepped in and managed her life when she couldn't," etc.

Paying someone's bills, managing their life ... .it isn't necessarily an act of love.  It's worth thinking about.

I also think it's important for folks here to realize that for many pwBPD, the feeling of being controlled through giving is an incredible fear.  Many partners seem to have the impulse that with pwBPD, more and more and more giving is somehow helpful.  It really can be the opposite.  There is an incredible article on this site, titled "Why We Struggle In Our Relationships," that explains that the most actually loving and helpful stance one can take toward someone with BPD is NOT to participate in that sort of dynamic, which denies them the chance to be who they really are and experience the natural consequences of that.  Several other articles and books echo this important point ("Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" is probably the most thorough).  It is really worth considering that gestures that partners think of as loving, are legitimately and sincerely experienced as controlling and smothering by someone with BPD.  If your partner were constantly showing you how you're nothing without him/her, you're incompetent, you need them SO MUCH, wouldn't it make you feel a little smothered and creeped out?  It certainly would me.

Again, these comments don't apply to all the lists here of loving gestures partners made before they were abandoned by someone wBPD.  Some of that is just hard and sad.  But some of the lists reflect this impulse to "love" by giving and caretaking to a point that is really oppressive and unhealthy.  Again, I found it useful to critically examine my impulses in light of that insight.

This is an outstanding post, PnC.      Lots of wisdom here.

Are we giving in hopes of getting?  Are we caretaking in hopes that we will taken care of ourselves?  Is this healthy love or is this need?  Where might we have learned this behavior?

Let's remember that this is not abuse.  We are the ones who are acting when we give.  We may be hurt by our partner's indifference and lack of reciprocation, but that is not the same as abusing us.  The only abuse here is for ourselves.   Why do we continue to give to someone when we resent them for it?  Is that healthy?

Edit:  I also think that PnC's point about holding our partner in bondage is equally excellent.  Were we seeking to hold them in the relationship?  Are they in debt to us?  Do we realize how this plays right into the bondage and persecution fears of the disorder?  These are very important things to be thinking about in our healing.   Lots of room for us to grow here.  Myself included.  I am also a fixer and rescuer.

[BorisAcusio]

The suggestions that the generosity some of us showed our exes were about keeping tabs are a bit unsavoury in my opinion.

I agree.

Not everyone posting here, but some posts, reflect a "giving to get" approach.  Many, many people have unconsciously internalized this strategy, that we will be loved for what we give.  It's more pernicious that it seems at first blush.  I have benefited from asking myself whether, to any extent, I "give to get" in my relationships, especially those that involved some aspects of abuse.  It can be subtle, and partial.

Or it can be overt and glaring, as in some of the resentment voiced here about "how dare she leave, I paid her bills, I stepped in and managed her life when she couldn't," etc.

Paying someone's bills, managing their life ... .it isn't necessarily an act of love.  It's worth thinking about.

I also think it's important for folks here to realize that for many pwBPD, the feeling of being controlled through giving is an incredible fear.  Many partners seem to have the impulse that with pwBPD, more and more and more giving is somehow helpful.  It really can be the opposite.  There is an incredible article on this site, titled "Why We Struggle In Our Relationships," that explains that the most actually loving and helpful stance one can take toward someone with BPD is NOT to participate in that sort of dynamic, which denies them the chance to be who they really are and experience the natural consequences of that.  Several other articles and books echo this important point ("Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" is probably the most thorough).  It is really worth considering that gestures that partners think of as loving, are legitimately and sincerely experienced as controlling and smothering by someone with BPD.  If your partner were constantly showing you how you're nothing without him/her, you're incompetent, you need them SO MUCH, wouldn't it make you feel a little smothered and creeped out?  It certainly would me.

Again, these comments don't apply to all the lists here of loving gestures partners made before they were abandoned by someone wBPD.  Some of that is just hard and sad.  But some of the lists reflect this impulse to "love" by giving and caretaking to a point that is really oppressive and unhealthy.  Again, I found it useful to critically examine my impulses in light of that insight.

Great posts, patientandclear and cosmonaut!

[Mr Hollande]

Patientandclear's post is good. Very eloquent and worth considering. Cosmonaut's comments seem more like projection but hey ho, each to their own. We all have our ways of approaching things.

I'm aware that my generous nature isn't always valued but I still don't identify with the idea that I was keeping tabs on my ex. If that's what it was about I'd be showering my enemies in gifts.

[enlighten me]

There is a difference between buying them and providing for them. I didnt buy my ex a car to win her over. It was her idea. As we had four kids it made sense to get a family car. She suggested it. She suggested she trade her car in.

A lot of the things I was coerced into. Yes I did a lot of rescuing but that didnt stop her from taking advantage.

[Mr Hollande]

I don't think I was ever coerced into helping her. I volunteered my help because that's the kind of person I am. I have extended my help and support wastefully many times before but after her I'm getting better at not doing that.

An example. A year and a half ago I wired money to my now ex so she could make the long journey to visit her son who was in remand for armed robbery. Last week I went with my current girlfriend who was buying a car with her own money. My contribution went no further than making sure the car was in good order. That's quite a difference in only 18 months. Being able to look after yourself is a very attractive feature in a person.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .