Out of Nowhere...

[MaroonLiquid]

I really shouldn't say, "Out of Nowhere", but you know what I mean.     My wife and I had plans to cook dinner together this evening at her house.  We had texted this morning and everything was fine.  Out of the blue a few minutes ago she texted, "I am cancelling for tonight."  I asked if everything was ok and she responded with, "No.  I'm making a clean break from you and all the issues.  My daughter will not be joining your team either.  I want our divorce finalized by the end of August.  Please tell me what it will take to get you to sign the papers.  :)on't ignore me, ML."  I responded with, "Obviously you are upset about something.  I would like to know what it is and I'm here if you want to talk."  She said, "I'm not upset, just want to finalize our divorce.  What do you want in the decree?  Stop avoiding my request."  She must have gotten a call from her lawyer.  I haven't answered again.    

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[maxsterling]

Wow, I'm sorry.  I certainly know the feeling when things drastically change at the snap of a finger, and it leaves us spinning.  A call from her lawyer is a good guess.  Or, it could have been a conversation with a friend, an article she read on the internet, or just too much time to think.  The reality here is, whatever the problem, it's not yours to solve.  Best you can do is take care of yourself, let her know you are available to talk, and leave the rest up to her.  Trying to force and explanation out of her right now is likely to result in disaster.

[turbo squash]

I'm really sorry man. I feel your pain. I heard the same thing Sunday.

One thing my therapist said here recently was very helpful for me. She said, "It seems like you are exerting a lot of effort to reconcile and that she isn't doing much to try. When I counsel couples in your situation, without fail, the ones that make it through are the ones that have both parties working hard to repair the marriage. When I see someone that is giving as little as your wife is, I don't see it succeeding."

I said, "So should I just start ignoring her then?"

She said, ":)on't ignore  her, but stop exerting all of this effort to repair the relationship. If it is going to work out, she is going to have to decide that she wants it to work out. Let her instigate any meetings or conversation and make sure to keep your guard up whenever it does happen."

I decided to do that. I have tried to be nice, but I have stopped asking her to try. I will talk to her, ask her questions, and tell her where my feelings are, but I won't ask her to take any action. Things have improved moderately since then, but that was only because SHE has started to take some action.

Things may end up working out for us and they may not. The only way they will though is if she takes the action to do it.

Above all, my question is how does this make YOU feel?

[sweetheart]

Hi ML,

it really must feel like 'out of nowhere' given the last couple of weekends you've had together  

Just wait and see now until she tells you what's really going on for her.

[MaroonLiquid]

Wow, I'm sorry.  I certainly know the feeling when things drastically change at the snap of a finger, and it leaves us spinning.  A call from her lawyer is a good guess.  Or, it could have been a conversation with a friend, an article she read on the internet, or just too much time to think.  The reality here is, whatever the problem, it's not yours to solve.  Best you can do is take care of yourself, let her know you are available to talk, and leave the rest up to her.  Trying to force and explanation out of her right now is likely to result in disaster.

The funny thing is, I'm not even spinning.  I've gotten good at taking care of myself and staying centered in situations like this.  it is kind of sad that when her lawyer calls (and that is my guess that is what this is and would make sense) its almost like a reminder that she is "supposed to be mad at me" for all that I've "done wrong".    This happens every two-three weeks I think when he doesn't hear from her and gives her a jolt of anxiety and anger about the situation she has painted herself into.  It's not that hard to get out of.  She should just say, "I've decided that right now I don't want to continue to pursue this and will call you if something changes."  I think the hardest thing I have had to come to accept is that other people's opinions mean more to her than mine a lot of the time.  I'll be honest, this stuff hardly phases me anymore.  Either I'm numb or just much stronger than I used to be.  Or both.

I'm really sorry man. I feel your pain. I heard the same thing Sunday.

One thing my therapist said here recently was very helpful for me. She said, "It seems like you are exerting a lot of effort to reconcile and that she isn't doing much to try. When I counsel couples in your situation, without fail, the ones that make it through are the ones that have both parties working hard to repair the marriage. When I see someone that is giving as little as your wife is, I don't see it succeeding."

She said, ":)on't ignore  her, but stop exerting all of this effort to repair the relationship. If it is going to work out, she is going to have to decide that she wants it to work out. Let her instigate any meetings or conversation and make sure to keep your guard up whenever it does happen."

Above all, my question is how does this make YOU feel?

Thanks.  Honestly, I'm not exerting the effort I used to because I understand the disorder so much better.  it keeps me centered and less focused on her crap.  I feel fine.  A little like, "Crap, here we go again." at first, but no biggie.  I realized it for what it was almost immediately.

Hi ML,

it really must feel like 'out of nowhere' given the last couple of weekends you've had together 

Just wait and see now until she tells you what's really going on for her.

I'm going to.  I'm realizing this trigger is more "out of nowhere" for her rather than me because I understand the cycle of things so much better. 

[MaroonLiquid]

Extinction burst time.     She just texted me again and said, "What do you want in the decree?  Stop avoiding my request."  I'm not responding. 

[Grey Kitty]

Is there any downside to letting her just serve you papers?

[MaroonLiquid]

Is there any downside to letting her just serve you papers?

No, and I still don't think it ever comes to that.  I think her lawyer is trying to get more money out of her as money makes her anxious and dysregulate.  I truly think she's at a crossroad with this and it hits her more and more the closer we get to each other again.  She either loses me through a divorce, or loses any "control" she is desperately trying to cling to.  The other night it seemed to calm her when I told her I didn't want a divorce.  I guess it's still too difficult to tell her lawyer she wants to hold off on it.  It makes her look "weak" I guess.  I'm not thinking too much into anything as she could have gotten upset that Kermit the frog is green... .. I'm just going to let her be.

[maxsterling]

Is there any downside to letting her just serve you papers?

No, and I still don't think it ever comes to that.  I think her lawyer is trying to get more money out of her as money makes her anxious and dysregulate.  I truly think she's at a crossroad with this and it hits her more and more the closer we get to each other again.  She either loses me through a divorce, or loses any "control" she is desperately trying to cling to.  The other night it seemed to calm her when I told her I didn't want a divorce.  I guess it's still too difficult to tell her lawyer she wants to hold off on it.  It makes her look "weak" I guess.  I'm not thinking too much into anything as she could have gotten upset that Kermit the frog is green... .. I'm just going to let her be.

Good plan.  Take care of you.  If she wants to serve you papers, let her serve you papers.  Don't get involved in her dysregulation beforehand.  What would be the point in responding to her?  None. 

[MaroonLiquid]

Is there any downside to letting her just serve you papers?

No, and I still don't think it ever comes to that.  I think her lawyer is trying to get more money out of her as money makes her anxious and dysregulate.  I truly think she's at a crossroad with this and it hits her more and more the closer we get to each other again.  She either loses me through a divorce, or loses any "control" she is desperately trying to cling to.  The other night it seemed to calm her when I told her I didn't want a divorce.  I guess it's still too difficult to tell her lawyer she wants to hold off on it.  It makes her look "weak" I guess.  I'm not thinking too much into anything as she could have gotten upset that Kermit the frog is green... .. I'm just going to let her be.

Good plan.  Take care of you.  If she wants to serve you papers, let her serve you papers.  Don't get involved in her dysregulation beforehand.  What would be the point in responding to her?  None. 

She texted again and said, ":)on't ignore me ML, it will only make matters worse.  I need to hear from you before noon tomorrow!"   . Seriously?  She's so mad I'm not answering her.

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm actually proud of myself that I don't give in to her threats anymore.  I am dealing with a tad of anxiety but know her threats are smoke and mirrors and she's looking for an outlet.  It's weird how quick everything can change.  That is still a shock at times.  I would like to know what actually happened today with her though.  I really wish she could tell me what is going on and we could talk through it. 

[MaroonLiquid]

So I woke up this morning and realized what may have set my wife off.  In her text about cancelling our evening together yesterday, she made the comments "making a clean break from all the issues" and about our daughter "not joining your team".  I now think those were the key statements and here's why.  We were going over stuff about the team over the weekend at her house and had my team notebook (we were taking notes in it) that I keep all my notes in.  I left it at her house.  It had honest player assessments (all coaches input) of all my players in it with strengths, weaknesses among other things (nothing rude, but instead truth about where each player is).  I think she read our daughters assessment and triggered her.  I could see how it would bother someone without BPD, but someone with?  Yeah.  That is on top of her watching practice the night before and she made the statement to me, "She is the worst on the team now."  Both of those things together could be a volatile cocktail.  I know I shouldn't be worried about why she is dysregulating, but now I feel stupid for leaving that over there.  I feel stupid.  That was information that could be hurtful (even though true), and understand why that would trigger her.  Especially knowing these notes were from a coaches meeting and other coaches had input.  Geez I'm dumb.  

[sweetheart]

I'm sorry ML, but you are so not dumb. BPD or not, yes this might have triggered your wife, but your professional assessment of members of the team are perfectly valid, that's your job.

You leaving the notebook there did not trigger your wife, your wife was triggered by what she read, if that was the trigger. There is a difference. So go easy on yourself, part of personal growth as you know is accepting that your wife's triggers are not your responsibility. 

[waverider]

I think you are doing the right thing,don't be tempted to blame yourself.

If someone has their foot on the brake save energy and take yourself out of gear, and its not up to you to put it in reverse either. Just idle a while and see what unfolds.

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm sorry ML, but you are so not dumb.

I know that, but in situations like this I have to question my own sanity... .... .I feel like this could have been avoided by not leaving my notebook (again, if that was the trigger), but something else might have triggered her too.

BPD or not, yes this might have triggered your wife, but your professional assessment of members of the team are perfectly valid, that's your job.

I know that deep down.

You leaving the notebook there did not trigger your wife, your wife was triggered by what she read, if that was the trigger. There is a difference.

That is a great way to put it. 

So go easy on yourself, part of personal growth as you know is accepting that your wife's triggers are not your responsibility. 

It took me a long time to get here.

I think you are doing the right thing,don't be tempted to blame yourself.

If someone has their foot on the brake save energy and take yourself out of gear, and its not up to you to put it in reverse either. Just idle a while and see what unfolds.

Definitely going to idle and see how this unfolds.  Again, I don't think it's about divorce at all, that is just her go to "stab" and she's finding it doesn't work anymore.

[MaroonLiquid]

So my wife's "noon deadline" for telling her what I want in the divorce has come and gone.  It must really get her that I "don't fall for no banana in the tailpipe" anymore.      She is probably still a little shocked at times that I stay centered and grounded without heating up in these situations when I didn't used to.     

[Grey Kitty]

You leaving the notebook there did not trigger your wife, your wife was triggered by what she read, if that was the trigger. There is a difference.

That is a great way to put it. 

I would also add that you did not show the notebook to your wife, or choose to share her daughter's assessment from it. Your wife was snooping in something that really wasn't her business. Probably looking for some trouble, and she found something to make it over.

Ya got two choices, here, man:

1. Remove yourself completely from her life, so you won't trigger her.

2. Do your best... .and she will get triggered sometimes. If she decides to divorce you over it... .well... .that was the other option anyhow.

You are still posting on staying; you've made your choice.

[waverider]

So my wife's "noon deadline" for telling her what I want in the divorce has come and gone.  It must really get her that I "don't fall for no banana in the tailpipe" anymore.      She is probably still a little shocked at times that I stay centered and grounded without heating up in these situations when I didn't used to.     

Just an example of the fact that pwBPD have no real boundaries, hence many of the threats and demands are just that, and why we don't need to jump at them.They are not thought out and are rarely deal breakers. Be aware though that lack of compliance can throw them further into chaos having a flow on effect, so give things plenty of time to settle.

It gets tiring trying to engage conflict when no one else is feeding it

[formflier]

 

Hang in there ML!   

[MaroonLiquid]

Just an example of the fact that pwBPD have no real boundaries, hence many of the threats and demands are just that, and why we don't need to jump at them.They are not thought out and are rarely deal breakers. Be aware though that lack of compliance can throw them further into chaos having a flow on effect, so give things plenty of time to settle.

It gets tiring trying to engage conflict when no one else is feeding it

Yep, that's true.  I think after attending practice the other night while reading my assessment, it hit her how much harder her daughter needs to work to get better.  I think she is afraid of spending the money for her to play and her not putting in the work to get better.  It's easier to quit by blaming me for something than her daughter possibly sitting the bench because she won't put in the work.  She would see that as a failure I guess.  The thing is, my two daughters have quite a bit of work to do also.  So she shouldn't feel bad. 

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife texted me out of the blue today and asked me a random question.  I answered and she came to practice and worked on my player files.  She left a bit later and I told her Inwould call her.  I called her later and everything seemed fine.  It was like nothing ever happened.   .  She's learning my boundary of healthy communication and that I don't react to her crap anymore.  I notice she is regulating her emotions way more quickly as my boundaries of healthy communication stay strong and firm.  I'm actually surprised she regulated them this quick. 

[waverider]

Almost comes as a shock when it works.

[Fian]

I have to confess that I am surprised.  I assume if a person tells me they want a divorce, they actually want a divorce.  It shows how little I understand BPD.

[formflier]

I have to confess that I am surprised.  I assume if a person tells me they want a divorce, they actually want a divorce.  It shows how little I understand BPD.

They actually do want a divorce... .in that moment

Once that moment is gone... .and they are sensing and feeling new emotions... .the previous moment is ancient history.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

I have to confess that I am surprised.  I assume if a person tells me they want a divorce, they actually want a divorce.  It shows how little I understand BPD.

Sometimes I feel this way too!  Especially when things come out of nowhere.

They actually do want a divorce... .in that moment

Once that moment is gone... .and they are sensing and feeling new emotions... .the previous moment is ancient history.

FF

Exactly, that's why it's so important not to validate that emotion (if that isn't what you want) in that moment as to not make that reality to them.  That's why when she dysregulates and brings that up I do two things.  

    If it is texting, I may say, "I see that you are upset and when you are ready to talk about it, I am here."  depending on the situation.  Whether I do that or not, I then cut off communication IMMEDIATELY.  It reaffirms my boundary that I WILL NOT have unhealthy communication with her.  She is upset and I won't be raged at, and barraging me with divorce CRAP is.  I understand she is trying to deal with her hurt, anger, or whatever overwhelming emotion she is feeling in that moment in the only way she knows how.  I just don't tolerate it anymore.  I then let her be for several days until she contacts me.  It's now about 2 days.  It used to be 2 weeks or longer about 8 months ago.  

    Second, if we are in person, I say, "I hear what you're saying.  I understand."  I then reaffirm that divorce isn't what I want, reaffirm that we can get through the hard things in our r/s together, and change the subject or leave the room.  If we are in person, she may bring this up because we have touched on something that is very hard for her to handle (like the issue last weekend about her childhood).  I've also noticed that when she does bring up divorce when we are together, her reaction has now changed to my boundary.  When I give my response, I see her kind of shake her head in frustration, but it is a frustration that I won't fight and it is no longer a trigger for me.  She now knows she's lost a lot of control and in a way, it's helped regulate her lately.

    Because of this boundary that I have set, she is regulating her emotions much quicker than she used to, and the silent treatment is lessening by leaps and bounds.  I am grateful and it is awesome.  Boundaries are a MUST to turn things around.  

[Grey Kitty]

I have to confess that I am surprised.  I assume if a person tells me they want a divorce, they actually want a divorce.  It shows how little I understand BPD.

Sometimes I feel this way too!  Especially when things come out of nowhere.

They actually do want a divorce... .in that moment

Once that moment is gone... .and they are sensing and feeling new emotions... .the previous moment is ancient history.

FF

Exactly, that's why it's so important not to validate that emotion (if that isn't what you want) in that moment as to not make that reality to them.

Well... .validation during dysregulation doesn't usually go very far anyway... .but my take is that validating the emotion would be fine.

What absolutely isn't good to do here is engage in the game she is playing. She's doing this to get a reaction from you, or control your behavior. The less reaction she gets, the less reason she has to do it again.

Boundaries are a MUST to turn things around.

  Yes indeed they are. You're doing so well with them these days!

[waverider]

Its catastrophizing, things can't be just a little broke, they have to be completely ruined, beyond salvation, hopeless, the sky is falling in.

The solution can't be a step back they have to be run for the hills.

You can validate that you see they ar having issues, but be careful not to validate the  prognosis or solution. Dont get into debate about consequences when tension is high

eg I can see you are upset, we can talk though this later when things are less tense.

[MaroonLiquid]

     I spent the afternoon with my wife and youngest stepdaughter today and had a great time.  We went and had dinner and laughed and had a great time.  We dropped our daughter at her house and ran another errand.  We started driving (in her car so not a whole lot I could do) and a few minutes in she hit me up with the divorce and boy did she try and trigger me every way possible with no success!  .  I stayed completely calm the whole time and even took my time to answer most of the time.  She even pulled out the "big guns" at times.   .  

    She said, "What is it going to take to get the divorce finalized before the end of August?  I can't get approved for financial aid for my son if our incomes are "together"."  I said, "I can understand how difficult that must be to think about."  She said, "Yeah especially when I have them on my own."  I said "It doesn't have to be that way and we could help them through college together."  She said, "How can we help them through college when we aren't living together?"  I said, "That's why we would work toward moving back into the same household."  She said, "I'm not moving back in with someone I'm not married to."  About that time, we pulled into the parking lot and I said, "Let me run in here and look at these shoes."  She responded with, "Yeah, let's not finish the conversation and I didn't respond."  We went in and everything seemed fine.  

    We got back into the car and I said, "You want to rent a movie?"  She said, "Yeah, let's rent, "How to be divorced in 30 days."  I said, "I was thinking more along the lines of Taken 3.  It has a much better ending."    .  She said, "Why won't you work on this divorce with me and stop ignoring me?"  I responded with, "I won't be a part of something I don't believe in."  She said, "So let me get this straight... .You won't sign divorce papers if I send them to you?  You will make me spend the money to pay for mediation and lawyer fees to get this done when you could just sign papers."  I said, "I haven't wanted this divorce from the beginning and have made that clear.  I stand for the marriage and what you choose to do is your choice."  She said, "It's always about you.  If you stood for the marriage you would have been a better husband throughout our marriage.  You wouldn't have had an emotional affair or stepped outside our vows (I didn't do either one).  You would have gotten counseling when I asked you.  You never made it about me.  If you really wanted to show me you cared you would make this easy for me and sign the papers."  How ridiculous and ironic is that?    I said, "I'm sorry you feel that way.  I've asked for counseling since our separation."  She said, "Yeah, it will have to go before the judge and he will not make it easy on you and I will call ML and ML's wife's good friends (named them by name and have confided in the husband a lot) to the stand and they will have to testify what all you've told them."  I said, "Ok, and they are very truthful people so I have nothing to worry about.  I trust them completely."  She said, "The judge will make it very difficult for you.  Why do you want to do that to yourself?"  "Because I care about you and the children and want to give them the life that we never had with two parents who love them."  We pulled into the garage and I said, "I'm looking forward to getting some of that really good water that our daughter made."  She said, "I'll get you some bottled water and you can just go home."  I said, "Ok."  She brings me some water and said, "You know how sad it is that you can't just move on with your life knowing we're never getting back together."  I responded that I hear what she's saying but still believe we can get through these things, told her I loved her and the children."  I then left.  She did everything she could to trigger me to no avail.  I think she was shocked at how I never raised my voice and always remained calm.  It feels like she is going through an extinction burst right now with trying to find my "weak spot".  Thoughts anyone?

[MaroonLiquid]

    I spent the afternoon with my wife and youngest stepdaughter today and had a great time.  We went and had dinner and laughed and had a great time.  We dropped our daughter at her house and ran another errand.  We started driving (in her car so not a whole lot I could do) and a few minutes in she hit me up with the divorce and boy did she try and trigger me every way possible with no success!  .  I stayed completely calm the whole time and even took my time to answer most of the time.  She even pulled out the "big guns" at times.   .  

    She said, "What is it going to take to get the divorce finalized before the end of August?  I can't get approved for financial aid for my son if our incomes are "together"."  I said, "I can understand how difficult that must be to think about."  She said, "Yeah especially when I have them on my own."  I said "It doesn't have to be that way and we could help them through college together."  She said, "How can we help them through college when we aren't living together?"  I said, "That's why we would work toward moving back into the same household."  She said, "I'm not moving back in with someone I'm not married to."  About that time, we pulled into the parking lot and I said, "Let me run in here and look at these shoes."  She responded with, "Yeah, let's not finish the conversation and I didn't respond."  We went in and everything seemed fine.  

    We got back into the car and I said, "You want to rent a movie?"  She said, "Yeah, let's rent, "How to be divorced in 30 days."  I said, "I was thinking more along the lines of Taken 3.  It has a much better ending."    .  She said, "Why won't you work on this divorce with me and stop ignoring me?"  I responded with, "I won't be a part of something I don't believe in."  She said, "So let me get this straight... .You won't sign divorce papers if I send them to you?  You will make me spend the money to pay for mediation and lawyer fees to get this done when you could just sign papers."  I said, "I haven't wanted this divorce from the beginning and have made that clear.  I stand for the marriage and what you choose to do is your choice."  She said, "It's always about you.  If you stood for the marriage you would have been a better husband throughout our marriage.  You wouldn't have had an emotional affair or stepped outside our vows (I didn't do either one).  You would have gotten counseling when I asked you.  You never made it about me.  If you really wanted to show me you cared you would make this easy for me and sign the papers."  How ridiculous and ironic is that?    I said, "I'm sorry you feel that way.  I've asked for counseling since our separation."  She said, "Yeah, it will have to go before the judge and he will not make it easy on you and I will call ML and ML's wife's good friends (named them by name and have confided in the husband a lot) to the stand and they will have to testify what all you've told them."  I said, "Ok, and they are very truthful people so I have nothing to worry about.  I trust them completely."  She said, "The judge will make it very difficult for you.  Why do you want to do that to yourself?"  "Because I care about you and the children and want to give them the life that we never had with two parents who love them."  We pulled into the garage and I said, "I'm looking forward to getting some of that really good water that our daughter made."  She said, "I'll get you some bottled water and you can just go home."  I said, "Ok."  She brings me some water and said, "You know how sad it is that you can't just move on with your life knowing we're never getting back together."  I responded that I hear what she's saying but still believe we can get through these things, told her I loved her and the children."  I then left.  She did everything she could to trigger me to no avail.  I think she was shocked at how I never raised my voice and always remained calm.  It feels like she is going through an extinction burst right now with trying to find my "weak spot".  Thoughts anyone?

Another thing I'm beginning to notice is when she hangs out with this other woman (had lunch with her yesterday) from her church who is also going through a divorce or a very difficult marriage (can't figure out which one) she gets into this mood.  I saw a picture of them two yesterday (she showed me today) and realized she has made herself look a lot like her and they kind of look alike anyway.  After we split up, she changed her hair color to dark about the same time they started hanging out.  Obviously she is mirroring her.

[Fian]

I read this one article that divorce is contagious.  If you get a divorce, your circle of family/friends are more likely to get a divorce too.

Your wife tried to get you to talk about divorce via Text, which didn't work, so now she is trying to get you to talk about it in person instead.  I don't know much about divorce, but my guess is the fastest way to get a divorce is to be really mean to you so that you agree to the divorce.  I hope she doesn't take that route.