Doubting everything

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

The other day, I posted about how I felt used and manipulated because I was starting to realize that I was just a backup if her boyfriend broke up with her or told her she couldn't live with him permanently (she basically moved herself in to his place slowly). 

Now, I'm starting to wonder if everything was all just a game to her.  She got me to admit that I liked her, got me to have sex with her, got me to say that I would live with her, and then discarded me when she was done.  Yeah, she threw in some nice words, to make it seem real, but it was all a game.  "Let's see if I can get the virgin to have sex with me."

The day she discarded me will eventually be known as the best day of my life. 

I feel so bad for her boyfriend.  I really, really do. 

I feel angry with myself because I gave up something so special to someone who didn't care, and I can never get that back.  I feel stupid because I let her trick me into thinking she actually liked me.

[SummerStorm]

The other day, I posted about how I felt used and manipulated because I was starting to realize that I was just a backup if her boyfriend broke up with her or told her she couldn't live with him permanently (she basically moved herself in to his place slowly). 

Now, I'm starting to wonder if everything was all just a game to her.  She got me to admit that I liked her, got me to have sex with her, got me to say that I would live with her, and then discarded me when she was done.  Yeah, she threw in some nice words, to make it seem real, but it was all a game.  "Let's see if I can get the virgin to have sex with me."

The day she discarded me will eventually be known as the best day of my life. 

I feel so bad for her boyfriend.  I really, really do. 

I feel angry with myself because I gave up something so special to someone who didn't care, and I can never get that back.  I feel stupid because I let her trick me into thinking she actually liked me.

[SummerStorm]

I should add how I came to this conclusion.  The day after she told me that I should stay away from her because she will destroy me in the end, I wrote her a long e-mail, telling her how much I value our friendship.  I told her about how all of my past friendships ended and about how I have low self-esteem because of it.  At the end, I wrote, "Please give our friendship until the end of the school year.  If, at the end of those two months, you don't want to be friends, I will walk away."  

The next two months involved push-pull, telling me she "loved" me and wanted to live with me, followed by her telling me a few days later that she didn't.  A week after she got out of the hospital, a week after the school year ended, she discarded me.  

When I visited her in the hospital, I said, "If you didn't think we would ever happen for real, why didn't you say so?"  She replied, "It wasn't that I thought we wouldn't happen.  It's that we will never happen."  At first, I thought that was simply her putting an end to it, but I think it was her saying, "I led you on and was just having fun, but I never wanted to be with you for real."  She knew that the only way to "get me" was to shower me with romantic promises about the future.  

We were supposedly best friends, but we never really did anything together, other than go to the movies once and hang out at my house a few times.  It was like she was just keeping me around because I asked her to give me two more months.  Then, she did whatever she could to both get exactly what she wanted (sex) while also destroying our friendship in the process.  

Is this typical of pwBPD?  Can they really just not leave well enough alone?  

Does it have to do with the shame they carry and the belief that everyone leaves?  And if they don't leave, they must be awful to hang around the pwBPD, so therefore, they must be discarded?  

Should I have not given her that option of giving me two months and then allowing her to walk away if she wanted?  Was that basically a challenge to her, giving her an opening to mess things up as much as possible?  

Could all of this also been an attempt to sabotage her relationship with her boyfriend, as well?  She had two people in her life who kept giving her chances and not setting boundaries, and so it was like she needed to push us away before we could leave her.

[Mutt]

Hi SummerStorm,

Yeah, she threw in some nice words, to make it seem real, but it was all a game.  "Let's see if I can get the virgin to have sex with me."

I'm sorry  to hear this. I can see how it would seem like a game. A pwBPD can't distinguish between intimacy and intensity and a pwBPD don't trust themselves or others, a requirement for intimacy is trust. The person wants intimacy and also desperately fears abandonment.

Does it have to do with the shame they carry and the belief that everyone leaves?

A pwBPD has feelings of low self worth, self loath and self contempt. Some experts believe that it is a disorder that is of chronic shame. There is a high rate of self harm and suicidal thoughts with people that suffer from the disorder. The person has more negative feelings than positive ones.

Feeling guilt is feeling like you did something wrong. Feeling shame is feeling like there is something wrong with you. We may have to look into our childhoods to relate with feeling shame from a parent, care-giver, teacher... .

[Gonzalo]

The ex- not leaving you alone is not universal - a lot of people here talk about their ex engaging them, but a lot of that set of people seem to be trying to engage the ex- too. My ex- made one little move that I think had some ulterior motive behind it - she asked me whether I had some tax docs of hers 'coincidentally' on my birthday. Other than that we have only had sparse practical contact about getting mail to her that comes to my house, and when we've run into each other socially she just ignores me like I'm invisible (I would prefer to nod/wave and say something ordinary and polite).

[valet]

Hey SummerStorm, I'm sorry that you're in so much pain over your pwBPD. I understand how the contradiction between her words and actions might make you doubt her original intentions.

Does it have to do with the shame they carry and the belief that everyone leaves?  And if they don't leave, they must be awful to hang around the pwBPD, so therefore, they must be discarded?  

Could all of this also been an attempt to sabotage her relationship with her boyfriend, as well?  She had two people in her life who kept giving her chances and not setting boundaries, and so it was like she needed to push us away before we could leave her.

It is likely that what she did was driven by shame, and also her fears of abandonment/engulfment.

pwBPD have a history of unstable relationships. I doubt that she would be actively trying to sabotage any of them, given her need for intimacy to feel 'whole'. I'd say that the disorder is what drives her away, or in turn, makes you feel that you're being pushed.

I would say that people with less firm boundaries are more suitable partners for the dance. It's a lot easier to fall into the push/pull without a general game plan for how we want to be treated. When we give someone repeated chances and they don't act on their words, it teaches them that they can continue their behavior without consequence. As the more emotionally stable individuals in these types of relationships, it is up to us to live by our values. The pwBPD has no fixed ones. As long as we stay clear of the FOG, this is possible, but when we get sucked into it we only enable their self-destructive tendencies. In other words, we are the fuel for their fire.

[SummerStorm]

I definitely did have a lack of boundaries, and I see this with her boyfriend as well.  

I also think about about the time she said, "I'm a sadist."  :)id she really mean that?  Had she convinced herself that she was one, since everyone around her always ends up hurt?  Maybe she thinks that she likes to hurt people, when she really doesn't actually like it?  Perhaps the label "sadist" was something she could wrap her head around, since its definition is pretty cut and dry.  She also struggles with depression and anxiety and struggled with bulimia in high school, so I'm sure it was hard for her to figure out what was wrong with her.  She thought she was bi-polar for a while, but even that didn't fit her.  So, concluding that she was just a sadist probably seemed easier and also served to reinforce her belief that she is "bad," since sadism carries with it a negative connotation.    

I do wonder if part of it was fear of abandonment.  None of this started until  after I came out to her.  It was almost like she thought, "I know a way to keep her from leaving me.  If I have sex with her, she'll be happy and won't abandon me."  A few days after I came out to her, she asked me if I had ever thought of kissing her.  It's such a shame that she thought sex was all she could offer me to keep me around.  Ultimately, it's what ended the friendship.  I told her so many times that I just wanted to hang out with her, go to a museum or something, but it was like she couldn't believe that someone would possibly want to do that with her.      

She also started making up lies about her boyfriend, almost as if she was trying to tell herself that what she was doing was okay because he is "bad" and she should leave him.  But really, it was all projection.  She is "bad," and he should leave her.  But like I said, he and I are very similar.  We both have poor boundaries and we both overlooked all of her lies and manipulations.  She expected him to leave her multiple times, especially after she revealed that she was cutting again, when she started smoking pot 3-4 times a day, and after her suicide attempt.  But he kept staying, and ultimately, she felt shame for cheating on me, projected that shame onto me, devalued me, and then discarded me.

If I/she/both of us were straight, I wonder how everything would have gone down.  She has a history of broken friendships, so I'm sure that something else would have happened to end it.  Is it possible that her other friendships ended because she really does think that sex is all she has to offer?  If she's friends with a straight woman, does she maybe think, "Why is she friends with me?  She's getting nothing out of this relationship."  

Because her boyfriend and I are so alike, I do worry about him.  Typically, I wouldn't care, but I texted the guy during and after her hospital stay, and I just see so much of myself in him.  He had sex with her very early into the relationship, gave her a key to his place pretty early, basically overlooked the fact that she was slowly moving herself into his place, was okay with her spending nights at my place for basically no reason (he apparently doesn't know I'm bisexual and also trusts her completely, which is dangerous for him), allowed her to live with him without helping to pay rent, and is now going along with her plan to have the two of them move across the country.  The pot smoking was definitely a   for lack of boundaries on his part because he lives at his cousin's place.  By allowing her to continue to smoke there, he was putting his cousin in jeopardy.  It's the move that worries me, not in relation to her, but to him.  I see it as a perfect example of lack of boundaries.  :)BT facilities are available near her now.  Why does she have to move so suddenly?

It just brings to mind something she said to me, back in April.  She said, "I need to practice restraint."  A few days later, she jumped on top of me and started making out with me.  Back in June, she said, "I still think he deserves someone better than me, but he doesn't, so I'm going to fight to be the girl he deserves."  She always has good intentions but never follows through with them.  

Knowing what I know now, I couldn't even be friends with her anymore.  If we still worked together, I would just ignore her at work.  I couldn't deal with constantly having to ask myself, "Where is she?  Who is she with?  Was she telling the truth about this, that, and the other thing?"  

She once told me that he doesn't analyze things and that he's "oblivious to the world around him."  As valet said, this seems like the perfect fuel for her fire.  I was also once fuel for her fire, but then I started asking questions and started setting boundaries.      

[Mutt]

Hi SummerStorm,

Why does she have to move so suddenly?

It just brings to mind something she said to me, back in April.  She said, "I need to practice restraint."

I understand how this wouldn't make sense.

You mention that you would like to go to a museum and that she didn't believe how someone would do this for her. It's think it's hard to watch someone that we love move on so suddenly  Do you feel like she was not taking what you were offering her?

A pwBPD lack impulse control, thoughts to consequences and it has a negative impact with inter-personal relationships, a diagnostic criteria for BPD is unstable and chaotic interpersonal relationships.

[SummerStorm]

Mutt,

It was just like she never wanted to go anywhere or do anything.  And if we did, she always paid.  I don't know if that was an impulse thing or not.  It makes me wonder if she knew that she was going to hurt me and just paid for everything, so that I wouldn't feel like I had lost anything.  I would imagine that someone who has a hard time with processing emotions in a normal way would think that lost money is worse than hurt feelings.  Even now, I'm not sure that she really understands how she hurt me.

After we started sleeping together, we just stayed at my place when she came over.  It was like the shame she felt carried over and she didn't want to do anything.  I'm not sure why.  I think she was afraid that what we had would look like a relationship to other people.  She tried to make me wear makeup and look more feminine, almost like she was afraid of me looking like a stereotypical lesbian.

I think some of her struggle with her identity also revolves around her sexuality.  I can tell she struggles with it.  I've always wondered if it's mirroring, as her stepsister is bisexual, and they are pretty close.  But if she decides that she's actually straight, she will feel like she's letting people down. 

The museum thing came up when we were just friends.  We went to see a movie and ate out at a restaurant when we were just friends.  We also made plans to go to a zoo and to visit a Civil War battlefield on two of the days I had off, but then she got a new job and couldn't take off those days. 

It almost seems like, as soon as we had sex, she felt like she had proven to herself that sex was all she was good for.  It's kind of like she convinced herself that I didn't really want to go to a museum or the zoo with her (I really did).  I was just saying those things to get her to have sex with me. 

I know I didn't help matters.  After she pushed me away once and said she was staying with her boyfriend, I said, "I think I'm going to go to the zoo by myself next time.  We can go in the fall, when it's cooler out." I figured that spending the day together might be something we would need to build up to, as I would need time to fully get over her and the sexual aspect of our relationship.  What she heard may have been, "If you aren't going to have sex with me, then I don't want to do anything with you."

The last time she tried to make plans with me, the day before she went NC, I already had plans for that day, to go to the zoo.  I made those plans because she had been avoiding talking about hanging out with me, and I didn't want to put my life on hold for her. 

So, I would say, a lot of this has to do with fear of abandonment, lack of a true self, shame, and feeling like she has no worth other than sex.

[SummerStorm]

I wanted to add that the moving suddenly part has to do with her moving suddenly across the country.  It just sounds like a way to escape her problems, which will only follow her there.  Yes, her parents are there, but I think it goes deeper than that.  She can't get a teaching job because she has no letter of recommendation and can't get one because the principal never observed her.  So, she's stuck.  If she moves out with her parents, under the pretense that she will get treatment, she may not have to get a job for a while.  I hope she does get treatment, but that's never a certainty.

[Mutt]

Hi SummerStorm,

It almost seems like, as soon as we had sex, she felt like she had proven to herself that sex was all she was good for.

I can see how it would hurt when we may feel objectified and lacking emotional intimacy with physical intimacy. It may also be that she was idealizing you or pulling you closer with push / pull behavior. Do you feel like that you wanted more than she could offer you in a relationship?

[SummerStorm]

Hi SummerStorm,

It almost seems like, as soon as we had sex, she felt like she had proven to herself that sex was all she was good for.

I can see how it would hurt when we may feel objectified and lacking emotional intimacy with physical intimacy. It may also be that she was idealizing you or pulling you closer with push / pull behavior. Do you feel like that you wanted more than she could offer you in a relationship?

Maybe?  She did warn me that we were at different points in life.  She said I'm ready to settle down and she's still being a party girl.  I told her she needs to become an adult soon, as teachers are held to higher standards.  A few days after this, she spoke of marrying me, and we looked at a house together.  Again, this is around the time she was lying about her boyfriend hitting her.

I guess a house maybe scared her off?  A house is a committment. 

But she's moving across the country with her boyfriend, so she hasn't feared engulfment with him.  Could it be that she felt it with me because buying a house was always my thing?  Moving across the country is her idea.  She has control in her present situation.

Also, the house was going to be in my name, so if she messed up, I could just tell her to leave.  I'm not sure what her situation with her boyfriend will be (living with her parents or an apartment together), but she will have more control and less committment either way.

[Mutt]

It could be that she was feeling engulfed or something happened with her boyfriend. It sounds like she wanted rescue from him when she spoke of marrying you. What is her boyfriend like? It could be that you have firmer boundaries and you are more responsible than he is, a house is a big commitment. When she says that she is a party girl, did you get the sense that she is emotionally immature? You may very well be at different points in life and the things that you like ( going to the museum ) when we take out the BPD pathology.

[SummerStorm]

It could be that she was feeling engulfed or something happened with her boyfriend. It sounds like she wanted rescue from him when she spoke of marrying you. What is her boyfriend like? It could be that you have firmer boundaries and you are more responsible than he is, a house is a big commitment. When she says that she is a party girl, did you get the sense that she is emotionally immature? You may very well be at different points in life and the things that you like ( going to the museum ) when we take out the BPD pathology.

He worked a lot and was also starting to pick up extra hours, so she maybe felt abandoned.  He admitted to me that he rarely saw her.  He is the one who got her into smoking pot again (he admitted this to me), never went to college (his twin brother and a lot of his friends did), and lives with his cousin and her small child.  He also has small gauges in his ear and plays video games.  He's 22 or 23 and still looks/dresses the same as he did when he was a teenager.  He also likes to drink.  He has an expensive car that he is obsessed with.  He does love her a lot and he seems like a nice guy, but some things he told me bothered me a bit.  On the day she was rushed to the ER, he stayed at home so he could take a nap because he was tired.  I thought, "Why don't you have someone drive you?" Two days later, he left her phone at home and was gone all day and couldn't give me updates.  I was one of the few who knew she was in the hospital and was trying to keep work updated on her, so I was mad that he just forgot her phone. 

My boundaries weren't that firm either, but I also wasn't living with her or in a relationship with her.  And eventually, I did start setting boundaries, which she did not like at all.  Her motto in life is, "I always get what I want." The pot smoking was something I didn't agree with.  She's an adult and a person can only do so much, but he didn't try to stop her or really see the big picture (if caught, she would have lost her teaching certificate forever).  His main concern wasn't the smoking, but that it made her more on edge and angry.  I made sure she never smoked at my house, and I limited the amount of alcohol/strength of alcohol in my house.  When we discussed the house, she said she was going to cook, clean, and do laundry, but said nothing about helping out monetarily, until I stressed that she would need to get a job and help pay bills.  She hasn't had a job all summer and hasn't been helping him pay rent.  Another boundary that he tried to set ended up not going the way he wanted it to, though he didn't know it.  A month after they started dating, a male friend from Europe came to visit.  Now, he's like a brother to her, but still.  Her boyfriend said he wasn't comfortable with it, and she said she would sleep on the couch.  Based on what she told me, she slept in the bed.  I don't think anything happened, but he set a boundary (no sleeping in the same bed with another man) and she ignored it.

Along with not a lot of firm boundaries, her boyfriend idealizes her.  I also did, but with reservations and criticism and knowledge of poor decisions (mixing alcohol and pills, driving recklessly, not applying for jobs, lying for silly reasons).  Even after her diagnosis, everything I said to him either passed right over him or shocked him.  I mean, he was shocked and disgusted when I told him that she ended our friendship, and he spent a good week or two trying to get her to explain to him why she did it.  I can't imagine what he'd say if he found out she cheated on him.

As far as the museum goes, she is highly intellectual and told me she enjoys museums.  She was in the gifted program in high school (this is a definite truth) and went to museums.  And I was thinking more along the lines of the spy museum or crime museum anyway.  Those are fun for everyone.  She's also the one who brought up zoos. 

She is definitely emotionally immature, though.  So, I think that is in conflict with everything else.  She always said she didn't want to "adult." Basically, she's a child who can write long, eloquent papers about philosophy, art, and literature.  I really don't know exactly what she likes.  She probably doesn't either.  She shares some more core interests (video games, alcohol, cooking) with her boyfriend, but not all of them are going to really make her act like an adult. 

I think the woman I liked was what she could be if she didn't have BPD and was more emotionally mature.  Compared to other student teachers who have come through the school, she was one of the most unorganized, lazy and immature ones.

[Mutt]

Her motto in life is, "I always get what I want."

My ex said something similar. She said "I do what I want". Isn't that another way of saying that I don't like boundaries? She doesn't understand boundaries, she wanted to sleep in bed with her bf's friend from Europe. Many of us had "floating boundaries" and when you set firm boundaries she started acting out.

And eventually, I did start setting boundaries, which she did not like at all.

It sounds like her boyfriend is emotionally immature; lacks boundaries, idealizes her and would likely let her have free reign. Do you see how it's not a game and the emotional immaturity of a 2 or 3 year old that flails against a parent's boundaries? She's intelligent and gifted and lacks impulse control. That's borderline personality disorder.

Yeah, she threw in some nice words, to make it seem real, but it was all a game.  "Let's see if I can get the virgin to have sex with me."

[SummerStorm]

Her motto in life is, "I always get what I want."

My ex said something similar. She said "I do what I want". Isn't that another way of saying that I don't like boundaries? She doesn't understand boundaries, she wanted to sleep in bed with her bf's friend from Europe. Many of us had "floating boundaries" and when you set firm boundaries she started acting out.

And eventually, I did start setting boundaries, which she did not like at all.

It sounds like her boyfriend is emotionally immature; lacks boundaries, idealizes her and would likely let her have free reign. Do you see how it's not a game and the emotional immaturity of a 2 or 3 year old that flails against a parent's boundaries? She's intelligent and gifted and lacks impulse control. That's borderline personality disorder.

Yeah, she threw in some nice words, to make it seem real, but it was all a game.  "Let's see if I can get the virgin to have sex with me."

To clarify, it was her friend, and he came to her apartment, before she was living with her boyfriend, and her boyfriend wasn't there.  She told him she would sleep on the couch but didn't.

I guess it just seemed like a game because she would pull back at suspicious times, but also, if she was fearing abandonment, that makes sense.  Once, she pulled away the day she and her boyfriend had plans in the evening.  

I don't think fear of engulfment has set in with him because he works so much and works at night.  So, he sleeps until lunch and then goes to work in the early afternoon.  He's probably the first guy she's dated who had a different schedule like that.  Weekends were different, but at least in May, he was also working some on the weekends.  One positive thing is that he does work.  Having said that, his reason for not smoking pot that often is because they do random drug tests.  He said he's seen a lot of people on pot before, which implied to me that he hangs out with an immature, partying crowd.

She's actually a good teacher, so it's a real shame if she wastes her education and doesn't teach. Her current lifestyle and substance abuse issues just don't fit with the image of a teacher, though.  In order to be an effective teacher, she would have to act like an adult.  

Oh, and she also said, "I do what I want" and frequently talked about how persuasive she can be.