Are illnesses masks for true issues like guilt or shame?

[MaroonLiquid]

    I talked to my wife on the phone last night and everything went well.  In the last few conversations, there has  been little hints of flirting.  What I've also noticed, is when my wife is starting to "pull" (in relation to the push/pull cycle), she complains of not feeling well (headaches, sickness, etc).  I validated her headache, asked her if she needed any meds for it, and let her know that if she needs me to call me (I only live like 10 minutes away).  Sometimes I offer to go take care of her when she is feeling rough but didn't this time as she acted like it was no big deal.  There have been times where she is bedridden with something and I will offer or tell her I'm coming over.  I texted her about 20 minutes ago to check on her and she hasn't responded yet.  

    I know that chronic illnesses are normal for pwBPD, however, I'm curious if these illnesses are masks for the true issues.  For instance, It almost feels like guilt, shame, etc. manifests as an illness when she knows she has done something wrong to me (got that email from her attorney last week).  It's almost like she would rather be ill than dea with the reality of what she has done.  It's like it becomes her way of apologizing, trying to make things "right", and pull me back in.  Not sure if that is the right way to put it.  :)oes anyone else see that or have any thoughts?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

I have seen this kind of behavior with my mother (w BPD).

Which leads me to a question for you?

My mother seems to get secondary gain for her "not feeling well" to the point where we do not know if it is "real" or not. It is real emotionally but maybe not physically.

I noticed that when she came to visit me, or I visited her, she coincidentally did not feel well. This got a lot of attention and concern about her, as well as she went to bed, while I took on most of the household duties, cooking, cleaning, etc.

The "not feeling well" exempted her from potentially stressful situations.

Eventually, we kids started to not respond to these situations.  Many times, they turned out to be nothing. However, mom is elderly, and once, it was something, and we didn't take it seriously until she was in the hospital. Thankfully, it was a quick recovery and she is fine, but it illustrates the sad consequences of this behavior.

Naturally, we don't want this to happen, but we have families and jobs and can not be attentive to her all the time. We also didn't want to enable the situation as a means to call us to her side all the time. This is tough with someone who has abandonment fears. She's an elderly widow and we want to be of help to her, but we also can not ignore our other obligations to do so.

My question also includes your behavior with your wife. The two of you are not together, and you wish to have her back with you. At the moment, you are being amazingly patient, loving, understanding, available, and accommodating. This is a similar situation to when I visit my mother. The short interludes are not long enough to work much on imposing boundaries, having expectations of her, or rocking the boat. Although I try not to enable her, these situations are somewhat idealized.

In a way, what we are doing is more of a "honeymoon" relationship than a "marriage" and this is OK for the circumstances. I want the visits to be happy and pleasant.

At the moment, my mother is doing well on her own, thank goodness. However, there may be a time where she needs more assistance, and will need to be closer to where I live. I am willing to do this, but would have to have certain boundaries that are not as necessary when we are together on a short visit.

I know that you are being amazing, no matter what she does or if she pushes your buttons. You are being supportive during her "not feeling well " episodes, but is she getting secondary gain from this? Could you maintain this on a day to day basis?  

Big question because, you want her back and it is great to be kind, calm, and supportive, but what would this be like if/when the two of you are together all the time. I am not saying to not be nice and supportive, but to be aware of the possible pros and cons of running over to help her may be.

[Notwendy]

When I am visiting mom, I don't have other obligations, so I can be available for her. But if she were to live near me, it would be different. I have other obligations. It wouldn't be fair to her to pull a "bait and switch " on her and have her move with different expectations. I would have to address the boundaries with her before she moved. However, she is who she is, and so the responsibility is on me to determine the balance between her needs and mine.

I hope that you are your wife reconcile, and if that happens, you might want to consider how you can be supportive to her while still attending to your other obligations.

[MaroonLiquid]

I have seen this kind of behavior with my mother (w BPD).

Which leads me to a question for you?

My mother seems to get secondary gain for her "not feeling well" to the point where we do not know if it is "real" or not. It is real emotionally but maybe not physically.

I noticed that when she came to visit me, or I visited her, she coincidentally did not feel well. This got a lot of attention and concern about her, as well as she went to bed, while I took on most of the household duties, cooking, cleaning, etc.

The "not feeling well" exempted her from potentially stressful situations.

This has happened in the past so I am fully aware of this.  When we were living together, I didn't realize what she was doing, and would pick up all the slack.  I know that in normal r's, people get sick and that's what couples do for each other.  I noticed, especially looking back, that when things got tough at work, she would "escape" this way.  it got more frequent/  :)uring our separation, it has happened a couple of times where I have gone and taken care of her.  Once after a surgery for four days (totally understandable), once when she was having a migraine for two days and laying in complete darkness, and another when she was just sick.  

Eventually, we kids started to not respond to these situations.  

Honestly, her kids are pretty lazy and don't help much unless they are yelled at.  They aren't very empathetic to illness and a children of a pwBPD, I can understand why they struggle the way they do.  

Naturally, we don't want this to happen, but we have families and jobs and can not be attentive to her all the time. We also didn't want to enable the situation as a means to call us to her side all the time. This is tough with someone who has abandonment fears.

I have much better boundaries with my wife than I used to.  i don't run to her aid much unless it is something I know she can't deal with like techonology and needs computers fixed.  Yes, she could pay to have them fixed, but I am good with that stuff.

I know that you are being amazing, no matter what she does or if she pushes your buttons. You are being supportive during her "not feeling well " episodes, but is she getting secondary gain from this? Could you maintain this on a day to day basis?  

That is a good question.  I think it depends on the situation.  The instance where she had surgery, that was a no-brainer.  Something like a headache?  No, there is no way I would go over and "pick up the slack" when she has kids to do that.  Because my boundaries are much better, I can detach lovingly from the fact that she has a headache.  I can say, I'm here if you need me and know I'm not enmeshing myself into that circumstance and be used.  I would still tend to my obligations.  I hope this makes sense... .

I hope that you are your wife reconcile,

Thank you.   Me too.  It seems insurmountable at times, but that feeling doesn't overwhelm me like it used to.

[Notwendy]

I'm glad to hear you are aware of the "secondary gain" from the not feeling well. Certainly, it is understandable to take care of someone after surgery and through an illness, and not to run for every little thing. It does feel sort of cold hearted not to, but it is difficult sometimes to tell when help is needed.

You really sound like you are trying hard, and I hope she realizes this.

[waverider]

The physical condition is a mirror for her emotional mind set.

She knows no one can understand her emotion so she uses physical complaints like others use analogies, except she believes the analogy. This is all or nothing thinking taking over, she lives the analogy.

Worst thing is the general lack of self care will often cause genuine issues to get masked under all the drama.

While the boy is busy crying wolf, and we ignore him, the fox is sneaking off with a few sheep. The difficulty is seeing the fox when all we are hearing about is the wolf

[vortex of confusion]

It's almost like she would rather be ill than dea with the reality of what she has done.  It's like it becomes her way of apologizing, trying to make things "right", and pull me back in.  Not sure if that is the right way to put it.  Does anyone else see that or have any thoughts?

I have mixed experiences with this kind of thing. Early in our marriage, it seemed like any time I needed my husbands help, he would have to go to the bathroom because he had an upset stomach. I used to joke with him about "You poop too much."

He always seems to be tired or have something that aches. There was a long time when he wouldn't feel right. Given his symptoms, I suggested that he get a blood sugar tester because I was pretty sure that he was diabetic. Sure enough, things got bad and I took him to the ER and he got diagnosed. Now, he will get cranky and blame it on his blood sugar. I know that having low blood sugar can make a person feel horrible. However, I get irritated because he doesn't pay enough attention to it sometimes. I often wonder how he manages at work because it seems like he feels bad or has something aching more often than not.

If I say that I am tired or feeling icky, he has to agree and tell me that he feels the same (or worse). It drives me crazy. I used to fuss over him. Now, I just listen and go about my business and let things go.

[MaroonLiquid]

Here's another question... .

     I know things with my wife are soo much better and calmer than they used to be and I am thankful for that.  I have much better boundaries and don't get involved in her chaos or attempts at creating it anymore.  I have to believe that's what her weak attempt at "pushing" the divorce is, creating chaos where there is none.  We don't fight, we are happier and get along much healthier than we have in over 14 months.  I need some help trying to work through some of her behavior currently.  Since about a four days before I received the paperwork (discovery) from her lawyer last week she started to pull back.  I can understand that and I don't chase her.  I won't.  She did this when she first filed four months ago and when I didn't respond with chaos, things almost immediately improved.  Yesterday, we texted for a while and the last thing I texted her was, "You are a great help to me and an asset to this team.  I really appreciate you!  Thank you!"  It was in response to her bringing something to my attention regarding one of the parents of one of the girls on my team.  She has also helped out a lot regarding keeping track of things on the team.  She has done a fantastic job and told her so.  Anyway, she didn't respond to that and we haven't talked since.  I'm really trying to leave her wanting more and the last communication to her always being caring and loving.  my question is this... .She has pulled back from pretty much all physical contact and I am trying to be understanding knowing she did this for several weeks .  My question is would she be trying to trigger me somehow and find out where my trigger line is because she continues to not be able to find it?  Almost like an extinction burst, does that make sense?  Also, why would she continue to keep me blocked on Facebook?  She has for a year.  Why?  I don't mention it, I don't bring it up, and don't give any attention to it.  But what kind of satisfaction could she be getting from it? 

[Fian]

She might not want you to read what she posted about you in Facebook.  She may have painted you black, and her friends are now also posting negative things about you.

[ptilda]

As we've discovered on other threads, SO many similarities between me and my husband.

I've been unfriended on Facebook. Previously blocked twice but he couldn't stand not being able to look at my page. I think the reason for him keeping me off his friends list has to do with accepting responsibility. If he adds me as a friend, he's admitting things are moving forward. He's not ready to do that.

[MaroonLiquid]

She might not want you to read what she posted about you in Facebook.  She may have painted you black, and her friends are now also posting negative things about you.

I know she did when we first split up.  That makes sense that she doesn't want that to be seen.  Very good insight and possibility. 

If he adds me as a friend, he's admitting things are moving forward. He's not ready to do that.

That rings true.  I haven't looked at it that way.  That's very good insight.  She has told me before (about 4-5 months ago) that she "doesn't want to answer questions."  In other words, she doesn't want to possibly be confronted with lies she's told.  I find it sad that they don't understand that 99% of those so-called "friends" on facebook could care less what they do and wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire.  The people that do care would be happy for her, and if they are not, well then, that is their problem.

[MaroonLiquid]

     I'm a little confused by the latest round of ST by my wife.  Yes, I did receive that email from her attorney last week, but we had still been getting along and communicating.  We haven't communicated since I sent her the text Tuesday that I appreciated how hard she has worked on team stuff, told her she was a great help to me and thanked her for her effort.  Since then, nothing.  I texted and asked how our daughter was feeling last night when she didn't show up to practice.  There was no response.  I later checked the team app that we use and she left a note (probably my wife in place of her) that she had a test to study for.  That's fine, but seriously.  I see some similarities from when she filed for divorce originally 4 months ago and she tried to pull back emotionally for several weeks with no affection, sex or anything until whatever she was going through passed.  It's almost like she feels ashamed for what happened.  That's the only thing that makes sense is she feels ashamed because no matter how hard she tries to instill chaos where there is none, I don't get involved.  I refuse.  I know I shouldn't worry about it and ultimately I'm not, it just seems to me that she is now trying to change the "rules of engagement" on the fly because nothing is working.  Her "bag of tricks" is coming up empty... .

[sweetheart]

Hi ML,

I've been following and thinking... .what if your w really does want a divorce, but is finding the process difficult to navigate, because ultimately the reality is just as hard for her.

I don't like talking in 'what ifs' because ultimately we don't know for sure, but we do know she hasn't let this go and it sounds as though she has created more distance between you recently.

It doesn't sound like her life is in chaos or that it is on hold in anyway, from what you describe she is living her life.

Is there a point at which you say I won't wait anymore? Again I'm not trying to be provocative, I just wonder... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Hi ML,

I've been following and thinking... .what if your w really does want a divorce, but is finding the process difficult to navigate, because ultimately the reality is just as hard for her.

I don't like talking in 'what ifs' because ultimately we don't know for sure, but we do know she hasn't let this go and it sounds as though she has created more distance between you recently.

It doesn't sound like her life is in chaos or that it is on hold in anyway, from what you describe she is living her life.

Is there a point at which you say I won't wait anymore? Again I'm not trying to be provocative, I just wonder... .

I hear what you are saying.  I do.  I have thought about that.  There is a few issues with that theory though.  First, if you really want a divorce, you don't put your daughter on your "soon to be ex's" softball team, especially when he isn't their biological father.  That isn't good for anyone, it is awkward, and could lead to something that doesn't end well.  A few weeks ago when she got upset about something, she threatened it again but said she would have her attorney move forward with setting a date for mediation and setting a date for trial.  I told her that if that is what she felt she needed to do, then that is what she should do.  What I got was a standard "request for discovery" from her attorney with a 30 day response request.  That is a waste of time.  There is nothing to discover and all we have is debt.  If she truly wants the divorce, set a mediation and trial date, shut up about it and be done.  I don't think she wants it, but I am not sure she knows how to fix it without fixing herself.  She knows she needs counseling and had put it on a piece of paper on her desk that I saw by accident.  It isn't going to happen.  If she wants to end it, she needs to do it.  She divorced her ex-husband so I know she knows how to follow through with one. 

[sweetheart]

I know my head would be mash potato for sure, even with mindfulness 

Are you going to ask her out on a date or any other plans to see her ? Is that a possibility for you? 

[Ceruleanblue]

Your wife knows you don't want the divorce, right? I mean I've heard you say things like telling her to do what she needs to do, but she basically knows it's still not something you want, right?

My take on this is it's about power and control, and punishment. She has something you want: HER, and she knows that. And I feel she's making you worry and sweat it(in her head, not saying you are), by going forward with the divorce. You've stated that you don't think she truly wants the divorce, but she's afraid to back down now. You know her, so I'd bet you are right, and those with BPD hate to be viewed as "wrong" or admit mistakes.

I think like me, you'll keep getting this treatment until she thinks you really truly, no longer care about the divorce. I had to come to the realization that BPDh wanted one, or said he did, and this time around after much begging, I decided to stop, and tell him to just go ahead! File, do whatever. And I meant it.

I mean, if our partners really want a divorce, we can't stop them, and if they don't, then calling their bluff just may work. I mean, if they want a divorce, that's their choice, but somehow just knowing that we are fine with it too, tends to change their thinking. I've read other posts where that's happened, and it seems to have just happened to me. My BPDh did a complete 180 last night on the subject, when I called his bluff. Will he stay that way, my gut says no, but I no longer care. That may just be a game changer in how he sees our marriage, but if not, I'll deal with being single.

You've really dealt with all this you've gone through amazingly. Your wife may not see it, but I sure do, and I'm sure others on here do too.

[vortex of confusion]

I hear what you are saying.  I do.  I have thought about that.  There is a few issues with that theory though.  First, if you really want a divorce, you don't put your daughter on your "soon to be ex's" softball team, especially when he isn't their biological father.  That isn't good for anyone, it is awkward, and could lead to something that doesn't end well.  

A person doesn't have to be the biological father to be a good father figure.

I am going to share some of the thoughts that I have about my husband. They are all over the map. There are days when I would love to get a divorce and separate and then there are days when that is the farthest thing from my mind. One thing that I have identified is that I love my husband. He can be a jerk but I know the kids are safe with him. I can't think of anybody else that I would trust my kids with at the moment. Having said all of that, I am just not feeling it. I feel a lot of love for him but I don't feel the romantic kind of love for him. We make great friends and there are times when I keep hoping that maybe the romantic feelings will come back if I just give it enough time.

I am sharing this with you because I wonder if your wife could be having similar feelings. Because she lacks the ability to communicate and be self aware, it may be that she is unable to articulate her own confusing feelings. It is really easy to try to guess at other people's motives and assign some kind of intent. Maybe there is no intent there. Maybe she is just as confused as you. Maybe the silent treatment is her attempt to not get sucked back into a situation that she is not happy with for whatever reason.

[MaroonLiquid]

I know my head would be mash potato for sure, even with mindfulness 

Are you going to ask her out on a date or any other plans to see her ? Is that a possibility for you? 

I asked to see her in a subtle way today because there is some paperwork we need to do for the team.  She said she would "send it to me" this evening.  Yeah... .I'm still waiting on it.  I'm not going to ask her anymore.  Im done being turned down because she has control issues.  I love spending time with her and I do miss her, but not to the point of me always asking.

Your wife knows you don't want the divorce, right? I mean I've heard you say things like telling her to do what she needs to do, but she basically knows it's still not something you want, right?

My take on this is it's about power and control, and punishment. She has something you want: HER, and she knows that. And I feel she's making you worry and sweat it(in her head, not saying you are), by going forward with the divorce. You've stated that you don't think she truly wants the divorce, but she's afraid to back down now. You know her, so I'd bet you are right, and those with BPD hate to be viewed as "wrong" or admit mistakes.

I think like me, you'll keep getting this treatment until she thinks you really truly, no longer care about the divorce. I had to come to the realization that BPDh wanted one, or said he did, and this time around after much begging, I decided to stop, and tell him to just go ahead! File, do whatever. And I meant it.

I mean, if our partners really want a divorce, we can't stop them, and if they don't, then calling their bluff just may work. I mean, if they want a divorce, that's their choice, but somehow just knowing that we are fine with it too, tends to change their thinking. I've read other posts where that's happened, and it seems to have just happened to me. My BPDh did a complete 180 last night on the subject, when I called his bluff. Will he stay that way, my gut says no, but I no longer care. That may just be a game changer in how he sees our marriage, but if not, I'll deal with being single.

You've really dealt with all this you've gone through amazingly. Your wife may not see it, but I sure do, and I'm sure others on here do too.

Thank you and yes.  My wife knows I don't want it.  I always tell her that I don't want it when I tell her that if she wants to go through with it then that is what she needs to do.  I'm not sure what acting like I don't care about the divorce looks like.  I feel that goes against my values but maybe since I don't know what it looks like, how can I say it goes against my values.  My thing is, I care very much about wanting our marriage to work.  I know that it won't if she won't be involved in the resolving of things.  Sometimes I feel like if I contact her attorney and tell him what I want to end the marriage, it may change some things with our r/s.  Then I look at it as going back on my values and she may see it as a way to fight and keep the chaos going.  I'm doing my very best to NOT fight.  If I tell her what I want, she'll find a way to fight over those things.  My thing is, she needs to be responsible for this choice in her life.  I'm a good man, good husband and a good father.  She needs to feel the full responsibility for throwing that away if she so chooses.  I've stuck to my guns and I'm very proud of myself.  She doesn't like that.  It seems to me that she tries to trigger me lately.

     I will be honest, I think right now she is hanging around the "divorced wives club" (a woman she has been friends with for a while whose daughter and our son are seeing each other and going to a school dance together probably).  This isn't the first time they have seen each other and it flames out every time because he goes for all the wrong girls.  He usually ends up dropping her.  its sad that friendships are more important to her currently than a man who loves her and her children.  It's very sad. 

VOC, what you said makes sense.  Maybe she doesn't know how to properly communicate. 

[MaroonLiquid]

So earlier today, we had a get together for my softball team for a "team building" event/party at one of my players parents house.  Most of the parents know my wife and I and they all know we are separated but they knew us when we were still living together.  To bring you up to speed, for the last week, my wife and I have barely talked except about "surface stuff" like softball.  I don't call or text as I don't have a reason to.  I did ask her to get together last night to go over something for softball together and she basically ignored the question and told me she would send me the info.  Other than that, I have stopped asking.  I'm tired of making all the effort toward getting together at this point.  For whatever reason, she isn't interested right now, and frankly, I'm ok with that because I'm tired of making all the effort.  Anyway, back to today... .At the party, my wife and I got there at the same time.  While there, when conversations came up, she would make sure to add comments about us doing stuff together, as if it happens all the time.  I didn't think anything of it really at first.  But she was kind of overboard with it at times.  At least it seemed that way to me.  It was strange.  She stared at me a lot (in a good way), and would make efforts to be close to me.  I didn't go out of my way to make conversation with her as I am not going to do that anymore.  There was one time where she asked if anyone wanted to watch a game with her (while looking directly at me) and no one went and sat with her.  It's not that I didn't want to, but I'm not going to look like a puppy dog!  I sat and talked to my assistant coach, and then went outside and talked to the girls on my team.  While outside, she came and stood next to me and flirted with me.  At the end of the party, we cleaned up their backyard and packed up to leave.  While leaving, I said goodbye to my kids, told them I loved them, goodbye to our daughter, told her I loved her and got in my car and left.  She walked to her car and got in.  She didn't say bye to me and I wasn't going to go out of my way to do the same.  I drove off and about 15 minutes later, she called to ask about something that happened at the party.  It's almost like she couldn't stand that I didn't go out of my way to be around her, nor did I call her afterwards.  I couldn't do it.  She called me.  Not really sure what her deal was at the party with bringing up things that we have done, but not in a while.  Weird.  Anyone have any thoughts?

[Fian]

It sounds like she is trying to shape the group's perception, but since they know that you are separated I can't see the reason either.

[sweetheart]

I just wonder whether she is confused about how to disengage from you, what that feels like, how to behave. Hence the confused messages from her in a social setting where you are both known.

Her behaviour has to me most definitely changed ( going on what you write )  this last month or so and has been at its most consistent re levelling out of her previous push/pull behaviours.

What do you want to do short/long term ML? Do you have thoughts about where you are in all of this, what do you want to happen for you to reengage?

[MaroonLiquid]

I just wonder whether she is confused about how to disengage from you, what that feels like, how to behave. Hence the confused messages from her in a social setting where you are both known.

Her behaviour has to me most definitely changed ( going on what you write )  this last month or so and has been at its most consistent re levelling out of her previous push/pull behaviours.

What do you mean confused about how to disengage?  

What do you want to do short/long term ML? Do you have thoughts about where you are in all of this, what do you want to happen for you to reengage?

What do I want?  That is a very loaded question.  I'm having a very emotional day.  I miss my wife today.  I miss our companionship.  I feel lost today.  I'm having questions about whether I'm handling this all correctly.  I want to reengage, but not feel like I look weak... .I want to be strong and the grounded one.

[sweetheart]

What do I want?  That is a very loaded question.  I'm having a very emotional day.  I miss my wife today.  I miss our companionship.  I feel lost today.  I'm having questions about whether I'm handling this all correctly.  I want to reengage, but not feel like I look weak... .I want to be strong and the grounded one.

I hear you ML. I'm really very sorry things are so difficult today, I know that this whole process must be leaving you very confused and upset.

Why wouldn't you miss your wife and her presence in your life... .your family.

When I read your posts I am always left wondering about reengagement, because your wife I don't believe is able to do this.

The questions around reengagement seem to me to be an important area for you to consider moving towards. Otherwise it feels to me like you become stuck.

Where are the feelings of weakness coming from? What is that about ?

It seems to me that over the last 14 months you have moved toward a place that is increasingly more strong and grounded.

Is there fear that if you reach out and attempt to reengage, you will trigger your wife into ending the marriage?

[MaroonLiquid]

What do I want?  That is a very loaded question.  I'm having a very emotional day.  I miss my wife today.  I miss our companionship.  I feel lost today.  I'm having questions about whether I'm handling this all correctly.  I want to reengage, but not feel like I look weak... .I want to be strong and the grounded one.

I hear you ML. I'm really very sorry things are so difficult today, I know that this whole process must be leaving you very confused and upset.

Why wouldn't you miss your wife and her presence in your life... .your family.

When I read your posts I am always left wondering about reengagement, because your wife I don't believe is able to do this.

The questions around reengagement seem to me to be an important area for you to consider moving towards. Otherwise it feels to me like you become stuck.

Where are the feelings of weakness coming from? What is that about ?

It seems to me that over the last 14 months you have moved toward a place that is increasingly more strong and grounded.

Is there fear that if you reach out and attempt to reengage, you will trigger your wife into ending the marriage?

I guess I don't know what reengagement looks like in our current situation.  I thought I've done everything I could to re-engage.  To me,  if I'm always the one to re-engage, it makes me look weak.  Doesn't it?  How do I go about re-engaging in my current situation?

[sweetheart]

 No I don't think it makes you look weak at all, not at all, but it sounds like it's bothering you a lot.

I think that maybe you have to take some risks, because as things stand you are not in an active relationship anymore.

If reaching out meets with the same triggered responses, or no responses at all then maybe you start to consider how long more are you really going to wait. Or whether you've done as much as you can and you start to consider what ending your marriage looks like.

I don't know what reengagement looks like for you either, but it seems to me that you as the emotionally healthy partner would be the one to reach out to see if your wife is willing to reconnect with you. Whether or not your marriage can be resumed but within healthier parameters.

I can't think of another way for you to know... .what do you think you could do?

Can you work through some options here and see how they look ?

[MaroonLiquid]

No I don't think it makes you look weak at all, not at all, but it sounds like it's bothering you a lot.

I think that maybe you have to take some risks, because as things stand you are not in an active relationship anymore.

If reaching out meets with the same triggered responses, or no responses at all then maybe you start to consider how long more are you really going to wait. Or whether you've done as much as you can and you start to consider what ending your marriage looks like.

I don't know what reengagement looks like for you either, but it seems to me that you as the emotionally healthy partner would be the one to reach out to see if your wife is willing to reconnect with you. Whether or not your marriage can be resumed but within healthier parameters.

I can't think of another way for you to know... .what do you think you could do?

Can you work through some options here and see how they look ?

Well, I tried.  I called her and asked if I could cook them dinner and watch a football game together (we both love football).  She said she had "too much to do this evening" and I said, "Ok.  How about later this week then?"  She said, "No thanks."  I was not pissed, not hurt, just felt "done" and said, "Ok, well, have a good evening" and we said bye and that was it.  A part of me is at the point where I am living out the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.  I believe I am at the point where I need to do something different.  I think she feels like I will be here no matter what.  Maybe the best thing for her is that I'm not.  I'm seriously considering emailing her lawyer and her this evening, telling them what I want from the marriage and saying if she will agree, I will sign the papers.  At this point, what's the worst that could happen?  I'd be in no worse position than I am now.  If she thinks I'll be her no matter what, maybe that will be a dose of reality for her as well.

[sweetheart]

What I meant in my earlier reply about your wife being confused about how to disengage, is that maybe that's exactly what she's been trying to do. She has been consistent without dysregulation now in declining to see you in a romantic way for a while now.

However when she sees you in person her messages are still somewhat mixed, maybe because it's hard for her to end her marriage too.

I don't know this, it's all just supposition, but perhaps it's important to allow room emotionally for this possibility.

I can't tell you what to do for the best ML, I don't know, but your life is on hold waiting for your wife. Which as you say is driving you crazy.

[MaroonLiquid]

supposition, but perhaps it's important to allow room emotionally for this possibility.

I am allowing room for this as a possibility.  I talked with someone I trust who last night who has been married for over 20 years and he gave me the advice to continue to go with how I have handled it.  I prayed about his advice and felt a release that it was the right thing for me.  He and his wife have known the entire situation, has known us for 6 years, and says that having her be fully responsible is the right thing.  He says that knowing her like he does, the divorce is not what she wants, but feels like she has "gone too far and backed herself into a corner".  He feels like she is pushing me to be partially responsible so she can feel better about it.  I've also thought about replying to her attorney regarding the ":)iscovery Request" email but not in a way they are wanting.  I've thought about replying from a standpoint of the husband that wants the marriage to work and not being pulled into this "unnecessary fighting".

[sweetheart]

I've also thought about replying to her attorney regarding the ":)iscovery Request" email but not in a way they are wanting.  I've thought about replying from a standpoint of the husband that wants the marriage to work and not being pulled into this "unnecessary fighting"

What might that possible response look like ?

[MaroonLiquid]

I've also thought about replying to her attorney regarding the ":)iscovery Request" email but not in a way they are wanting.  I've thought about replying from a standpoint of the husband that wants the marriage to work and not being pulled into this "unnecessary fighting"

What might that possible response look like ?

So far, what I have is:

Ms. [Attorney's name},

    I received your email regarding the "discovery request" sent forth by your office.  After prayerfully considering your email the last several weeks, I have decided that it isn't in the best interest of my marriage to respond to this request.  I understand that you have a job that you were hired to do and I believe you are representing your client to the best of your ability.  As you have responsiblities that come with your job, I have responsibilities as a husband also.  As a husband, it is my job to continually seek God's will, continue to stand for my marriage, for our children that we raise, and refuse to be involved in the negativity that these proceedings can incur.  I understand that my wife has made choices with your office that seem contrary to the marriage, however, she has said things to me over these same months that make me believe that divorce isn't the option she desires either... .

That's all I have so far... .