was there really anything more I could have done?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I often look back at my disaster of a BPD relationship wondering whether I could have been more dominant, recognizing the sh!t tests more, not caring as much. But then I also wonder whether any of that would have truly made a difference.  I really don't think so. It seems like the BPD pathology is way more "advanced"/stronger than any game the victims can play.  We can never win in the end. It's like heads they win, tails we lose. Your thoughts?

[hopealways]

I often look back at my disaster of a BPD relationship wondering whether I could have been more dominant, recognizing the sh!t tests more, not caring as much. But then I also wonder whether any of that would have truly made a difference.  I really don't think so. It seems like the BPD pathology is way more "advanced"/stronger than any game the victims can play.  We can never win in the end. It's like heads they win, tails we lose. Your thoughts?

[SGraham]

In a word, NO. It doesn't matter how good of a guy/gal you are or how patient/compassionate/understanding you are, eventually you will get trashed. I mean sure you might -and that's a big might- have been able to prolong it a bit but is that really what you want? I've followed your story hope, and you seem like a good person, don't beat yourself up too much - being with a pwBPD is rough enough, the last thing you need is to get on your own case.

Best wishes,

SG

[once removed]

hey hopealways 

BPD is a mental illness. it is not merely a difficult man or woman who plays games and can be tamed with calling them on behavior or not caring as much. and the kind of person i described is not an ideal partner or relationship anyway.

it sounds like youre kicking yourself for not being assertive. is this a pattern for you?

[enlighten me]

I can relate to the heads and tails quote.

If I was too supportive I was smothering if I gave her space I was abandoning her. Theres no happy medium.

Plus with my exs needs constantly changing there was no keeping up with them.

[Lifewriter16]

I might be being cynical, but I don't think pwBPD want us to succeed in building a successful relationship and that's the basic problem. They want us to think that they want a successful relationship to keep us there (to maintain their supply) but they don't actually want the intimacy that comes with one. It's all a big cover-up so we don't realise we're being played and leave them. But don't listen to me, I'm having a downer today.

Lifewriter

x

[Skip]

It's like heads they win, tails we lose. Your thoughts?

Was their a winner and a loser. A predator and a prey? A persecutor and a victim?

The honest answer is that we certainly could have done better - in many ways. Better for the other person. Better for ourselves. Better for the relationship. Better for the breakup. Better for going forward.

If we think we were a passive or even healthy participant in an extended unhealthy relationship, its not top shelf thinking.

A person with BPD traits is emotionally immature and will have unstable relationship skills. Its a given that there is going to be relationship struggles. 

In the same way, its also true that if we have weak people reading skills (empathy), react immaturely, have weak values/boundaries, or don't understand basic human nature, we too will struggle when relationships or partners wonder off the path.

The are complex and loaded relationship bonds that are often infected with FOO struggles or other insecurities/weaknesses - we own some of that.

[Michelle27]

I struggled with this for a long time.  So long that I didn't leave he relationship until 9 years after the first rages.  I tried everything... .avoiding confrontation, raging back, leaving the scene and during the last 5 years, validation.  Nothing worked.  Finally putting a boundary in place that he ultimately crossed (consequence was separation) seemed to make him realize how serious I was.  The problem was, he only "understood" that when he wasn't dysregulated... .once that happened, it was all out the window.  He went through the motions of seeking therapy and said all the right words that it was for him, not for me, but when I realized I couldn't do it anymore and told him, he quit it all.  

He actually tried to tell me when I ended things that I didn't give him "enough of a chance" to get better.  Really?  5 years of dragging him to doctors, 2 mental health hospitalizations, 1 police incident, 3 marriage counselors (all sabotaged) and a couple's communication course (also sabotaged)?  Not enough?  Not to mention the years of carrying around overnight stuff and work clothes for the inevitable times I had to flee the house during a rage.  

I honestly believe that we as nons do the best we can under the circumstances, even if sometimes our reactions to this FOG aren't the healthiest.  We have little to no control over the outcome of the manifestation of BPD.  

[Lucky Jim]

I echo MIchelle27.  I tried as hard as I could for as long as I could over a 16-year marriage.  I doubt that I could have done anything more, because I nearly destroyed myself in the process.  Sure, I could have handled some things better, as Skip notes, yet BPD proved too complex and stressful for me over the long haul.  Like Michelle, I kept an overnight bag in the car for nights when my Ex kicked me out in a rage.  I got to know the late-night desk clerk at the local motel.  Not fun.  I reached a point where I had no choice but to leave.

LuckyJim

[goateeki]

I might be being cynical, but I don't think pwBPD want us to succeed in building a successful relationship and that's the basic problem. They want us to think that they want a successful relationship to keep us there (to maintain their supply) but they don't actually want the intimacy that comes with one. It's all a big cover-up so we don't realise we're being played and leave them. But don't listen to me, I'm having a downer today.

Lifewriter

x

This is brilliant.  Also, I think it's correct.  My T once corrected me when I was drifting toward thinking I could have handled it differently, and he told me flat out that it wouldn't have made a difference.  As he saw it, the only thing that would have made a difference was me being less kind and understanding, trying less to make things work, and the difference, he thought, would have been that the relationship would have ended much sooner than the 19 years of emotional poverty that I lived with.  He thought I'd have decided to end it much earlier.  He was adamant that there isn't a person in the world who can make these relationships work unless the BPD makes a solid commitment to getting better, and that often takes a decade.

[greenmonkey]

I know in myself I could do no more than what I did, I sorted out her legal stuff, wrote letters for her, washed, cooked, shopped, cleaned, catered to her every whim. I treated her like a princess that in my eyes was what she deserved as her previous relationship were apparently so bad. I was willing to pay to put her through therapy, fight for custody of her son, pay her debts off so we could have a fresh start.

I know that if we would have lived in a 20 bed mansion, 20 acres of land, pool, pond, had a porsche each, a 4x4 each and still did all the above, the outcome would have been the same.

Nothing would ever be good enough, it might have delayed it a bit, but the mental illness determines the outcome long before we are even aware.

I barely managed living with her for a year, through the lying, silent treatment, rages, etc putting her needs first in front of mine near enough destroyed me and I was not prepared to tolerate being miserable in a relationship (in the loosest possible terms)

[hopealways]

I might be being cynical, but I don't think pwBPD want us to succeed in building a successful relationship and that's the basic problem. They want us to think that they want a successful relationship to keep us there (to maintain their supply) but they don't actually want the intimacy that comes with one. It's all a big cover-up so we don't realise we're being played and leave them. But don't listen to me, I'm having a downer today.

Lifewriter

x

Excellent responses by everyone thank you. I really think BPD is about ENGULFMENT fears first, and then the inevitable abandonment fears. The statement by Lifewriter I think is not cynical at all, I think it actually describes the BPD perfectly.

[Skip]

It's an interesting response (in general)…

The question was about us (anything I could have done) …

Most of the answers were about our partners.

This (as an example), if true... .

I might be being cynical, but I don't think pwBPD want us to succeed in building a successful relationship and that's the basic problem. They want us to think that they want a successful relationship to keep us there (to maintain their supply) but they don't actually want the intimacy that comes with one. It's all a big cover-up... .

… suggest that we were really gullible… to be out-smarted by someone with emotional instability and impulse control problems.

Maybe the question is not so much about doing more of what we were doing (like someone said, a bigger house wouldn't have matters) - maybe it is about doing things differently - or maybe assessing things better - or having different goals... .

[Bigmd]

I find myself thinking the same thing. Sometimes wondering if I could just talk to her maybe things will change. The bottom line is I bent over backwards for her and her kids. We were getting engaged and were gonna buy a house together. There is nothing more I could have did to ensure she knew I would be there for her and loved her. I even bought a promise ring . But our last conversation she told me she wasn't sure I loved her. That's crazy.

[hopealways]

I think what we should have done differently is been ourselves, did what was right not just bending over backwards & doing things to enable them because we were afraid of the consequences (rage, silent treatments, breakups).  Since my breakup I have actively tried to stop being such a people pleaser and guess what? I feel people respect me more for it.

Having said that, I think the BPD would have respected us more if we stopped trying to please them all the time... .but in the end the result would be the same. They would find another victim as their passive supplier, we would find out about it, and the relationship would still be over.

[enlighten me]

I could have done things differently. The problem is by the end of it would I still have been m Or would the relationship have ended sooner?

[Darsha500]

I have been contemplating this question lately myself. how would things have gone if I had established my boundaries from the get go, said no when I wanted to say no, refused to tolerate cruel behavior that ran contrary to the values I thought I stood for?

If I had been more assertive, that is, if I had behaved differently, I do believe my relationship would have proceeded upon a different trajectory. It would have been a difference in terms of my mentality. It may have lent itself to more favorable results.

However, I behaved as I behaved, in a quite passive manner. Could I have behaved differently? No. I did the absolute best I could with the knowledge I had. And I pursued knowledge, DILLIGENTLY! I spent many hours reading books trying to learn how to make things run smoother. Only after reading stop care taking the borderline did things really come into perspective for me. But by this time it was already to late, I had already lost myself to the point that only a separation could revive me. At least thats the perspective I have now. The point is, I did not know what I know now, and I did the best I could at the time.

I think the mere fact that I have to question my efforts is problematic. When I doubt my decision to split, when I think, what if I had just tried harder, I scold myself. Well, not scold, but I say "darsha500, how is it that you are possibly doubting yourself right now?" She's a powerful object of addiction.

I remind myself that all the extra efforts I "wish" I had engaged in would have been in an effort to preserve a very dysfunctional relationship. They would have been countermeasures put in place against a force I really didn't want to have to deal with in the first place.

[Tangy]

This is an interesting thread and ironic for me today. I write drafts on email pretty often (that I never intend to send... .I just do it as therapy for myself) and in the one I wrote today I said: "It really sucks that this didn't work, but I know I loved you, gave it everything I had, and worked really hard on myself and the relationship, so there's nothing I can do about it now, it's too late"

Our relationship started bad (we had about the same emotional health level). I got serious about therapy... .got into grad school... .worked on challenging myself... .tried to see him as he told me "not intending to ever hurt me." Tried gently talking him... .tried pretending like things weren't happening... .tried giving him space... .tried trusting him... .got cheated on. The only thing I never did was walk away and be assertive.

I have been contemplating this question lately myself. how would things have gone if I had established my boundaries from the get go, said no when I wanted to say no, refused to tolerate cruel behavior that ran contrary to the values I thought I stood for?

If I had been more assertive, that is, if I had behaved differently, I do believe my relationship would have proceeded upon a different trajectory. It would have been a difference in terms of my mentality. It may have lent itself to more favorable results.

However, I behaved as I behaved, in a quite passive manner. Could I have behaved differently? No. I did the absolute best I could with the knowledge I had. And I pursued knowledge, DILLIGENTLY! I spent many hours reading books trying to learn how to make things run smoother. Only after reading stop care taking the borderline did things really come into perspective for me. But by this time it was already to late, I had already lost myself to the point that only a separation could revive me. At least thats the perspective I have now. The point is, I did not know what I know now, and I did the best I could at the time.

I think the mere fact that I have to question my efforts is problematic. When I doubt my decision to split, when I think, what if I had just tried harder, I scold myself. Well, not scold, but I say "darsha500, how is it that you are possibly doubting yourself right now?" She's a powerful object of addiction.

I remind myself that all the extra efforts I "wish" I had engaged in would have been in an effort to preserve a very dysfunctional relationship. They would have been countermeasures put in place against a force I really didn't want to have to deal with in the first place.

I think about this all of the time. I'm with you. I did what I could at the time. I've become assertive and more confident BECAUSE of all of the Ish, and because of him cheating and abandoning me... .and now I'm for the first time dealing with my FOO. It's not that I wasn't trying before... .but that with my addiction (him) I couldn't feel all of the pain inside about my FOO. Once he wasn't there to medicate me anymore... .I had pain, emptiness, excruciating loneliness etc... .I don't think I personally could heal my FOO with him in my life... .and I feel now even after just 60 days NC I'm in a better place where I could be assertive and enforce boundaries (I had been growing over the full 3.5 years just needed a big break from him). But the thing is... .now I don't want him back... .because he's not showing any signs of changing (that I know of) and his character and personality are just so harsh... .I don't want the negativity.

SO in short... .I think the only thing I could have done differently was listen to myself when my intuition was screaming from the very beginning... .NOT GOOD... .GET OUT. But I had to go through it to get me to a healing place. I guess I wish he would have grown with me... .but he didn't want to. And so the guy I thought I was in love with and was going to marry isn't real.

[disorderedsociety]

I think what we should have done differently is been ourselves, did what was right not just bending over backwards & doing things to enable them because we were afraid of the consequences (rage, silent treatments, breakups).  Since my breakup I have actively tried to stop being such a people pleaser and guess what? I feel people respect me more for it.

Having said that, I think the BPD would have respected us more if we stopped trying to please them all the time... .but in the end the result would be the same. They would find another victim as their passive supplier, we would find out about it, and the relationship would still be over.

True. I kinda stopped doing anything, ever, and she started seeking out new supply right in front of me. Its a cycle, can't stop it.

[myself]

I think what we should have done differently is been ourselves, did what was right not just bending over backwards & doing things to enable them because we were afraid of the consequences (rage, silent treatments, breakups).  Since my breakup I have actively tried to stop being such a people pleaser and guess what? I feel people respect me more for it.

Also, you can end up respecting yourself much more.

[have gone nc]

I think what most people are forgetting as well when their saying if they had stronger boundaries etc is that if that was true, then the relationship wouldn't have even started in the first place! Look right back to the start, and you will see you was being tested from day one to see if you was the kind of person to play the game! I think my ex started testing me on about the third text message sent... .then it was push push push and then victim speech then let's play ball!

[Tangy]

I think what most people are forgetting as well when their saying if they had stronger boundaries etc is that if that was true, then the relationship wouldn't have even started in the first place! Look right back to the start, and you will see you was being tested from day one to see if you was the kind of person to play the game! I think my ex started testing me on about the third text message sent... .then it was push push push and then victim speech then let's play ball!

Yes this is correct... .and I think it's the only thing we "could have done differently"

On the flip side... .I think had I been healthier maybe I would have noticed what was going on... .like I could have known he was behaving the way he was out of self-hate and dysfunction and "observed not absorbed" but I made his behavior about my self-worth. And in my own defense I probably made his behaviors worse... .But honestly if I had been that healthy person... .the person able to observe not absorb... .I don't think I would have stayed in a relationship with him because I wouldn't have had the attachment to him that I had after 3.5 years... .I don't know its all so confusing... .

As an example of stronger boundaries... the camel that finally broke the straw back was him going out of town to meet up with an old friend that he had romantic memories/feelings about. He told me I had nothing to worry about because he loved me and didn't want anything to come between us and if I didn't want him to go... .he wouldn't. Well I was trying to be superwoman and show him that I trusted him (I didn't) and that he could be free as he wanted to be... .If it were today... .and I know what I know now... .I would have told him it was his choice but that ultimately I felt it was inappropriate. And if he had still chosen to go I would have broken off the relationship... .knowing he wasn't ready to be in a serious committed relationship if he wanted to go off and spend the weekend with a "friend." As anyone that has read my thread knows... .he ended up cheating and calling off our wedding... .after promising I had nothing to worry about... .and now we're 2 months NC and I assume he's with her... .so that's the way the cookie crumbles I guess...

[Lucky Jim]

Who knew?  I had never heard of BPD until after I had been married almost 10 years.   We never covered that topic in Psych 101 in college!     Seriously, I think BPD is way under the radar for most people, so it takes a long time to figure out what's happening.  Of course, my own issues with self-esteem and codependency made me highly susceptible to a BPD r/s.  People with healthy boundaries would probably run at the first sign of BPD.  Not me!  I thought I could handle it.

LuckyJim

[Conundrum]

Maybe the question is not so much about doing more of what we were doing... .maybe it is about doing things differently - or maybe assessing things better - or having different goals... .

I agree with that ^ perspective. It is about our aspirations and whether we employed wishful thinking (aka denial) concerning the relational capabilities of another. We can rationalize the reasons for that--and often we deflect away from self-reflection in lieu of critiquing another's character--which is understandable because we're hurt (though not constructive). Relational aspirations traditionally are geared towards ordered entities based upon cultural mores--though applying those same goals and desires to a relationship with a disordered person is well... .the definition of insanity has been called doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result.

Sanguine wishful thinking towards relational aspirational synchronicity w an untreated pwBPD is where our hurts come from. Consequently, it's necessary for us to self-reflect on our own black and white thinking. Why did we become so fixated upon squeezing blood from a stone, instead of accepting their divergent natures? What does it say about us that we our allowed own wishful thinking to drive us into twisted terrain? We rebelled against them just as much as they rebelled against our ordered aspirations. Either way, both parties dishonored the other's intrinsic humanity. Just because someone is extremely relationally different than you or I, doesn't mean that they are a diminished being. Their essence is as bright as any of ours--simply masked behind an unfathomably complex relational disorder. It's ok, if you couldn't accept their relational anomalies--they're swirling storms--but when we deflect from our own 'choices," to blame another--then those same emotional mechanisms (which were present during the relationship) keeps us in locked in prisons of our own device. My 2 cents.                            

[Skip]

Well said.

[Lifewriter16]

The problem as I see it is that I made 'choices' that were uninformed. I became attached before I knew it was not a wise decision. I was encouraged to believe in a possibility, a future that was simply a mirage. And it hurts. I know that makes me naive, but the point is, we are all naive until we learn otherwise. I am left with only one possibility, to blame myself for hoping for something that it was reasonable to hope for, to blame myself for my own hurt.

All this intellectual understanding is one thing, but dealing with the hurt is another.


Lifewriter

x

[Tangy]

All this intellectual understanding is one thing, but dealing with the hurt is another.


Lifewriter

x

Actually this is spot on. I think this is one of the reasons many people suggest that these situations have much more to do with FOO. Its not to invalidate or diminish the feelings we have, its just that perhaps our feelings have more to do than just this current situation. For me example, when I am feeling the raw pain of my situation, I don't feel like I'm in my late 20s... .I feel like I'm more like 8. And it didn't totally hit me until I went to a vacation spot about 3 weeks NC with exBPD that I had went to as a child... .and I was like holy crap... .I feel exactly how I did back then... .I remember now. It was a very bizarre experience. So you're right we can intellectualize all day long and try to get it... .but feeling the hurt... .really feeling it and experiencing it is part of the healing process.

I think the point may be for most of us... .there's nothing more we could have done... .because we had to be in these situations to propel us forward... .the odd feeling that these situations were in weird ways sort of gifts (i'm not totally comfortable with that viewpoint yet, but I'm getting there.

[Lucky Jim]

I think the point may be for most of us... .there's nothing more we could have done... .because we had to be in these situations to propel us forward... .the odd feeling that these situations were in weird ways sort of gifts (i'm not totally comfortable with that viewpoint yet, but I'm getting there.

Agree w/that, Tangy.  I like to view my 16-marriage to a pwBPD as a crucible for growth, because it forced me to confront my own dormant personal issues.  I know myself so much better now, which is a good thing.  Yet I can't say that I emerged unscathed by BPD.

LuckyJim

[hopealways]

I don't feel like I'm in my late 20s... .I feel like I'm more like 8. And it didn't totally hit me until I went to a vacation spot about 3 weeks NC with exBPD that I had went to as a child... .and I was like holy crap... .I feel exactly how I did back then... .I remember now. It was a very bizarre experience. So you're right we can intellectualize all day long and try to get it... .but feeling the hurt... .really feeling it and experiencing it is part of the healing process.

I think the point may be for most of us... .there's nothing more we could have done... .because we had to be in these situations to propel us forward... .the odd feeling that these situations were in weird ways sort of gifts (i'm not totally comfortable with that viewpoint yet, but I'm getting there.

I did the same thing, and I still do, and i have the same feelings as when I was 8-14 or so. These relationships are familiar to us which is why we stay. They stir up emotions inside our otherwise dead self which is why we put up with the chaos because the alternative is emptiness. But it is a gift, I agree. Now, I am working to be okay with hanging with myself, not needing constant sources of validation and increasing my self worth by recognizing my uniqueness (we are all unique and different which is what makes us special).

[apollotech]

enlighten me:

If I was too supportive I was smothering if I gave her space I was abandoning her. Theres no happy medium.

No hope, other than having minor influence, you never had control of the relationship---and neither did your ex. BPD runs the show. BPD relationships are of extremes, extremes are not where normal people operate effectively. As stated above, there is no middle ground. You, the relationship, your ex, were always going to be caught up in, between, the swings between the extremes.

[Invictus01]

I often look back at my disaster of a BPD relationship wondering whether I could have been more dominant, recognizing the sh!t tests more, not caring as much. But then I also wonder whether any of that would have truly made a difference.  I really don't think so. It seems like the BPD pathology is way more "advanced"/stronger than any game the victims can play.  We can never win in the end. It's like heads they win, tails we lose. Your thoughts?

What are you saying is "If only I could walk on the eggshells a little bit more masterfully... ."

Any grown up relationship, BPD or not, will fail if you start wondering what you can do to outplay the other person. That's BS. It isn't a game. If it is a game for your SO, time to walk.