Why Do They Do This?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Do you BPD's really believe the lies they make up or do they know they are just being insane and think it's funny?


I keep going over this time in my head that still can't understand. I once invited my BPD to a show of my friends band. (which I had been trying to get them to go for a year! And of course wouldn't ) they finally said yes. I also invited a mutual friend to come along as well. They said they were bringing some friends too and my BPD flipped out! Split black in two seconds! WENT AS FAR TO SAY IF THEY ARE GIRLS THAN I MUST BE GOING ON A BLIND DATE!

What the heck? I could not even believe how irrational that thought was! Exps when the friends were males! But before I could even say this she lost her marbles, went off! I even showed her the text of what the friend said and she still didn't believe me!

She ignored me for a week after that never went to the show and I never went on my blind date


As if I should of cut off that relationship and crazy behavior than   Of course she recycled and it went back to the same old till a month later there was another " issue ".


I guess I still can not understand how BPD's can be so untrustworthy of a person. Do they know they are doing this? Do they do it on purpose? Will they ever trust anyone?


I know it's no longer my concern but I will have days ( probably like many of you ) where these memories will pop up and I still can't believe.

[Kelli Cornett]

Do you BPD's really believe the lies they make up or do they know they are just being insane and think it's funny?


I keep going over this time in my head that still can't understand. I once invited my BPD to a show of my friends band. (which I had been trying to get them to go for a year! And of course wouldn't ) they finally said yes. I also invited a mutual friend to come along as well. They said they were bringing some friends too and my BPD flipped out! Split black in two seconds! WENT AS FAR TO SAY IF THEY ARE GIRLS THAN I MUST BE GOING ON A BLIND DATE!

What the heck? I could not even believe how irrational that thought was! Exps when the friends were males! But before I could even say this she lost her marbles, went off! I even showed her the text of what the friend said and she still didn't believe me!

She ignored me for a week after that never went to the show and I never went on my blind date


As if I should of cut off that relationship and crazy behavior than   Of course she recycled and it went back to the same old till a month later there was another " issue ".


I guess I still can not understand how BPD's can be so untrustworthy of a person. Do they know they are doing this? Do they do it on purpose? Will they ever trust anyone?


I know it's no longer my concern but I will have days ( probably like many of you ) where these memories will pop up and I still can't believe.

[Kelli Cornett]

Has anyone had similar experience? I'm not alone?

[cloudten]

my ex absolutely believes his own lies. He even makes up lies about MY FEELINGS. how does he know what i am feeling? he doesn't. and he argues with me about how I feel. its ridiculous.

I think my BPD knew he was doing it... .but only believed it was half intense as it actually was. Most of it was projecting. In your case, for example, she's probably projecting that it was a blind date, because in her world it WOULD be a blind date. sick and sad.

I don't know if they do it on purpose. Some of the manipulation is on purpose... .but the lies... .I don't know. I think it depends on the person.

You will probably have lots of days, unfortunately, where you shake your head. Its impossible to believe the unbelievable. And I firmly believe that no one has any idea what it is like until they have been with a pwBPD. Its unreal.

Once your addiction breaks... .you will be able to breathe again. i promise. when these memories pop back up, just shake your head and get off the ride. her circus isn't your circus.

[problemsolver]

Has anyone had similar experience? I'm not alone?

My BPDex was the same so you're not alone... Is a lie a lie if you believe it to be true?... .She would constantly say irrational things like oh you used to hang out with Jessica last year I know you guys had sex don't lie yaddah yaddah... .Dude take a deep breath you can't do anything alot of the times without physical evidence you can't convince someone with BPD of something... When they are feeling dysfunctional... Many also have "selective" memory... So just take it for what it is , you can't do anything

[Kelli Cornett]

my ex absolutely believes his own lies. He even makes up lies about MY FEELINGS. how does he know what i am feeling? he doesn't. and he argues with me about how I feel. its ridiculous.

I think my BPD knew he was doing it... .but only believed it was half intense as it actually was. Most of it was projecting. In your case, for example, she's probably projecting that it was a blind date, because in her world it WOULD be a blind date. sick and sad.

I don't know if they do it on purpose. Some of the manipulation is on purpose... .but the lies... .I don't know. I think it depends on the person.

You will probably have lots of days, unfortunately, where you shake your head. Its impossible to believe the unbelievable. And I firmly believe that no one has any idea what it is like until they have been with a pwBPD. Its unreal.

Once your addiction breaks... .you will be able to breathe again. i promise. when these memories pop back up, just shake your head and get off the ride. her circus isn't your circus.

Thank you for the advice. It's just so hard.

[Kelli Cornett]

Has anyone had similar experience? I'm not alone?

My BPDex was the same so you're not alone... Is a lie a lie if you believe it to be true?... .She would constantly say irrational things like oh you used to hang out with Jessica last year I know you guys had sex don't lie yaddah yaddah... .Dude take a deep breath you can't do anything alot of the times without physical evidence you can't convince someone with BPD of something... When they are feeling dysfunctional... Many also have "selective" memory... So just take it for what it is , you can't do anything

Selective memory?

[Herodias]

Mine knew he was lying... .no doubt about it. He would get angry if questioned. I am sure there are some things that their version of reality is different... .such as, mine said we never had enough sex. Well, we did almost everyday! So I suppose it depends on what is enough for one person over another. The psychiatrist said, if he believes it's true... .then it is to him. I think it's ridiculous. Mine knew he was lying. Just didn't want to get caught!

[Mutt]

Hi BlackAndBlue22



I can see how you're friend with BPD was a debbie downer at your friend's band show.

It sounds like her fear of rejection was triggered, a sufferer of BPD have an innate fear of rejection and have rejection sensitivity and fear that people that are close to them will abandon them; they seek confirmation that they really matter to loved ones.

A sufferer of BPD have dichotomous thinking or black and white thinking and see people and situations in "all or nothing" terms.

Symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder

Borderline Personality Disorder is a disorder of the emotions. Imagine a person who is extremely sensitive to rejection (fearful of even perceived or anticipated rejection) and has a limited ability to modulate their emotional impulses (love, fear, anger, grief, etc.). To protect themselves from their own feelings, they are prone to adopt a multitude of dysfunctional rationalizations and cover-ups.

For example, a person suffering from BPD may so fear rejection in a new relationship that they recreate themselves in the image of a person they believe would be lovable. When the negative emotions for making such a sacrifice surface - and not having the ability to modulate them, they lash out at the target of their affections for "making them do it" - rather than face their own feelings of inadequacy / fear of rejection, ultimately damaging the relationship they so fear losing, and reinforcing their feelings of inadequacy / fear of rejection.

What are the Symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder?

[JQ]

Hey Black & Blue,

I see you're relatively new to the group with about 2 dozen post so I hope you have had the opportunity to read the references here, the books that others have suggested and have tried to learn all you can about BPD.

S/O with BPD have quite likely had a traumatic event early in their life or in the case of my exBPDgf she was sexually molested, emotionally molested & mentally abused for not a few days, weeks or months but for years by an older brother of 2 years. It started when she was 4 or 5 and went on until she learned to fight back when she was about 13-14. At the same time her sister physically kicked & beat her, & mentally abused her for the same period of time. Her father was always working to put food on the table so wasn't around much & mother she had felt had abandon her. So she learned at a very early age to survive ... .how do you do that? You lie ... .and given the circumstances she went through, it went on for years ... .so what is real & what is not is hard to tell in their world. All they're trying to do is survive, she was abused by the very people that were suppose to protect her from such monsters so she never had anyone else to count on but herself ... .and the survival instincts in her took over and have never gone away.  She has been in & out of therapy with more then a few therapist over 25 plus years but still exhibits a lot of BPD traits. I know she'll never get better and that she will always have BPD traits, i was ignorant to believe that I could at least help her get to a better place ... .that I was the one she could trust. This sight, therapy & a lot of reading & learning have taught me i will never be able to Cure her ... .it's one of the 3 C's in DPB life. YOU didn't Cause it!  YOU can't Control it! YOU can't Cure it!  I've tried for nearly 2 years ... .and only because of 25 plus years of therapy I see moments of clarity in her eyes ... .I hear moments of clarity in her voice ... .but those moments are short lived and the crazy train leaves the station once again.

As cloud ten says, her circus isn't your circus ... .I've learned that her problems are not my problems. Do they believe the lies they tell? Perhaps to some degree they do, it's a hold over from just trying to survive the daily abuse she was having. Problemsolver also points out they are dysfunctional & have "selective' memory. Again I believe it's a learned  behavior to survive ... .she is Catholic and very religious and if you're being sexually molested by your brother everyday knowing from your religious teachings that everything about it wrong & you could go to hell ... .somewhere in her young underdeveloped mind she learned to lie to herself to protect herself & somehow make things right in her mind. Can it be changed ... .evidence shows that it won't change but to some degree redirected or relearned to behave in a better manner.

They have very low self esteem and will do triangles to believe they are wanted, that they are loved. NOTHING in the life of someone who has BPD is NORMAL ... .and WILL NEVER BE NORMAL!  It's just the way it is, nothing you can say or do will ever change that. She will recycle, she will try to entice you until back within her trance again & will put you back on the shelf to play with at her time & choosing. Most of us in here have had the same experience ... .you're not alone. Most of us are Knights in armor that want to rescue them ... .Cowboys wearing the white hat coming to the rescue of them ... .we all are very likely a care giver, a codependent and want to protect, care & love them ... .but due to their behavioral illness it will never happen. Take solace in knowing that we've all been there ... .we all have the scares to bare ... .you're not alone. I told her I had enough and was moving on in my life and wished her the best & hope she finds the peace in her heart, mind & soul she needs & wants. She deserves it more than anyone else I know. She told me that she knew her current bf wasn't the one and that she was trying to leave him but didn't know how. She was working on it with her therapist. Again & again, month after month I heard this ... .I finally woke up & smelled the coffee ... .she was doing & saying what it took to survive ... .I told her I couldn't be in this triangle any longer ... .and with that I said good bye ... .she called a couple of days later 'just to say hi" in a call that lasted about 12 minutes ... .I think she's found another leg to the triangle ... .and I'm in a better place for it ... .you will be too

Block her phone, text, Facebook, tell friends not to give her any information on you ... .then learn to heal yourself ... .learn about yourself and why this happen to you ... .then live life! enjoy it ... .you only get one go around in life ... .don't waste it !

[problemsolver]

Has anyone had similar experience? I'm not alone?

My BPDex was the same so you're not alone... Is a lie a lie if you believe it to be true?... .She would constantly say irrational things like oh you used to hang out with Jessica last year I know you guys had sex don't lie yaddah yaddah... .Dude take a deep breath you can't do anything alot of the times without physical evidence you can't convince someone with BPD of something... When they are feeling dysfunctional... Many also have "selective" memory... So just take it for what it is , you can't do anything

Selective memory?

Meaning she will remember how "SHE" remembers it... whether that's the way it went down or not... her reality is based off her distorted perception

[Michelle27]

My ex had to have believed his lies.  I only found out a couple months ago that for 15 years he led me to believe he had been a pilot before we met and had been "grounded" in a "grey area of the contract" and had to move to working nights cleaning airplanes.  For 15 years he gave me stories of flight school and experiences flying including knowing and dating flight attendants.  Imagine my shock to talk to his step mom after we split up to hear that no, in fact, he was hired to clean planes at night as a result of his sister being a manager at the airline.  I don't know how he managed to get through 15 years worth of Christmas and Thanksgiving dinners plus birthday celebrations because he must have been worrying all the time if this lie would come out.  And that's just the one I know about.  If he can do that for 15 years, plus a year long affair with my so called friend while agreeing to go to 3 different marriage counselors and a couple's communication course while sabotaging it all.  It's either BPD or absolute insanity. 

[Stolen]

How about a wife keeping the lie for almost 30 years that she is actually a  lesbian?

Huh?

I think the whole "unstable sense of self" aspect keeps them from knowing who they are and what is real. Way deeper than "simply" telling an untruth, I don't think they (generalizing, I know) know what the truth is.

[JQ]

How about a wife keeping the lie for almost 30 years that she is actually a  lesbian?

Huh?

I think the whole "unstable sense of self" aspect keeps them from knowing who they are and what is real. Way deeper than "simply" telling an untruth, I don't think they (generalizing, I know) know what the truth is.

Stolen Link,

I think there are at least two separate issues that you might be talking about. I would agree with you on the point you make about a BPD not knowing what the truth really is at times. But the Lesbian thing ... .I have another idea that might explain it better & would like to get your thoughts on it.  If your wife kept secret that she was a lesbian for 30 years you sound as if you might be from an older generation. My step mom who had been married to my dad for 21 years before he died had started to get more then a little chummy with her friend & roommate. My brothers & sisters all adults at the time started to suspect something and brought it to me. I asked them would it really matter if she was gay? So one day I took mom to lunch and just asked her at which point she said yes she was.

She came from a generation that really "shunned" those who came out, family members never saw them again, some lost jobs, some lost their life ... .it's not like today where they are proud to come out, wave a flag & get married on the court house steps. Most gay's & lesbians married to cover up who they really were. It wasn't that long ago that gay men hid who they were because of AIDS.

So I think there might be at least two things at play here ... .just a thought ... .

[Stolen]

JQ - I think that is spot-on.  The shame/embarrassment that gays/lesbians experienced 30-40 years ago (and many sadly still do today, regardless of all the happy flag waving), has got to create wounds that often never heal.  I read somewhere (posted by a Lesbian) that closeted LGBTs not only tell "lies" to others, but also to themselves.  This sounds absolutely tortuous to me - and seems so related to the "unstable sense of self" that runs with BPD. 

I could have much better dealt with some honesty, rather than being split black, having my children alienated from me and her trying to destroy me financially.  But that's where the dysphoric rage of BPD reared its ugly head - as I've posted elsewhere, there is a long history of that in her FOO.

The sexual orientation just adds the icing on the cake.

[JQ]

Stolen,

My ex-wife during one of our MC sessions told me "I'm not the woman you married ... .I am ... .but it's not who I really am. I was the person you wanted ME to be not who i wanted to be". So for over a decade you pretended to be someone you weren't ... .you pretended to be someone "I wanted you to be" ... .how the hell do you wrap your brain around that? She was constantly negative and the MC told us that someone who isn't happy in their life or aren't honest with themselves are very unhappy & negative.  She went to find herself ... .

I'm sorry that you're children alienated you ... .I hope that you have found a way to mend the fences and are on better terms now ... .

I hope that you have found peace with things you can't control ... .like her sexual orientation & her BPD ... .it has nothing to do with you ... .it in both cases it sounds as if it was beyond her ability to cope and deal with her own sexuality & we already know that BPD has it's own issues ... .it has nothing to do with you ... .

[Stolen]

JQ,

I wouldn't say the children alienated me - I'd say they were alienated from me by xW, just like they were first separated and then isolated from me.

This is by far the most disturbing aspect of all of this - finally finding and understanding personality disorders I now know my efforts were and would be for naught. But the kids... .

I think the core issue is that if a middle aged woman can not speak a word of honesty of her orientation and intentions, how could I expect teenage daughters to do so?  The cognitive dissonance this creates in them must be strong, and how better to mitigate that than to avoid the person most impacted by the duplicity?  Alienation for them is not the problem, but rather, the solution. 

With no honesty, the children have been effectively drawn into the lie, and xW has been gracious enough to share her guilt and shame with them (sic). 

Amy Baker's book - "Adult Children of Parental Alienation... ." describes so well what goes on in the mind of alienated children. Most discouraging is that the average time from onset of alienation until realization of said alienation is something like 20 years.  And that's only for a select group who EVER realized they had been swayed.

[Kelli Cornett]

My ex had to have believed his lies.  I only found out a couple months ago that for 15 years he led me to believe he had been a pilot before we met and had been "grounded" in a "grey area of the contract" and had to move to working nights cleaning airplanes.  For 15 years he gave me stories of flight school and experiences flying including knowing and dating flight attendants.  Imagine my shock to talk to his step mom after we split up to hear that no, in fact, he was hired to clean planes at night as a result of his sister being a manager at the airline.  I don't know how he managed to get through 15 years worth of Christmas and Thanksgiving dinners plus birthday celebrations because he must have been worrying all the time if this lie would come out.  And that's just the one I know about.  If he can do that for 15 years, plus a year long affair with my so called friend while agreeing to go to 3 different marriage counselors and a couple's communication course while sabotaging it all.  It's either BPD or absolute insanity. 

Wow that is something else... .

[Kelli Cornett]

Has anyone had similar experience? I'm not alone?

My BPDex was the same so you're not alone... Is a lie a lie if you believe it to be true?... .She would constantly say irrational things like oh you used to hang out with Jessica last year I know you guys had sex don't lie yaddah yaddah... .Dude take a deep breath you can't do anything alot of the times without physical evidence you can't convince someone with BPD of something... When they are feeling dysfunctional... Many also have "selective" memory... So just take it for what it is , you can't do anything

Selective memory?

Meaning she will remember how "SHE" remembers it... whether that's the way it went down or not... her reality is based off her distorted perception

I see

[JQ]

JQ,

I wouldn't say the children alienated me - I'd say they were alienated from me by xW, just like they were first separated and then isolated from me.

This is by far the most disturbing aspect of all of this - finally finding and understanding personality disorders I now know my efforts were and would be for naught. But the kids... .

I think the core issue is that if a middle aged woman can not speak a word of honesty of her orientation and intentions, how could I expect teenage daughters to do so?  The cognitive dissonance this creates in them must be strong, and how better to mitigate that than to avoid the person most impacted by the duplicity?  Alienation for them is not the problem, but rather, the solution. 

With no honesty, the children have been effectively drawn into the lie, and xW has been gracious enough to share her guilt and shame with them (sic). 

Amy Baker's book - "Adult Children of Parental Alienation... ." describes so well what goes on in the mind of alienated children. Most discouraging is that the average time from onset of alienation until realization of said alienation is something like 20 years.  And that's only for a select group who EVER realized they had been swayed.

S.L.

I respect where you're coming from ... .parents can alienate their kids without a divorce for any number of reasons as mine has done with me. I try like hell to not re-live negative moments from the past as it really doesn't do me any good to ponder what if's, should if's, could ifs.  Being the codependent always positive kinda guy that I am     I would say never quit ... .never give up.  I'm sure you've tried many different things to reconcile with your kids. I have a friend who's parents divorced when she was 19 & she moved out of state with her mother who poisoned her against her father for the next few years.  Once her mother passed away from breast cancer she was reunited with her father ... .she now has the very best relationship with her father and realized that everything her mother told her wasn't close to the truth. They spend as much time as they can together along with his grandkids ... .so I can say I've seen more then one example of a positive outcome in a situation like yours.

Stay positive my friend ... .don't give up ... .don't stop trying ways to connect ... .don't look back on your life & say what if I ... .I should of ... .if I only would of.  Send a simple birthday card to them ... .to the grandkids of they have any ... .don't try to force it ... .don't try to buy love ... .but i'm sure you already know this ... .just keep making baby steps forward ... .


j

[SamwizeGamgee]

In my observation, what ever they feel becomes reality.

And just as quickly becomes a deniable lie that the other made up.

[JohnnyShoes]

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[JohnnyShoes]

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[AsGoodAsItGets]

Do you ever remember as a kid thinking a monster was under the bed or in the closest.  Of course after the emotions wore off you knew it was silly, yet at the moment it was a real fear.  Bpds can not regulate emotions.  They are stuck with the emotions of a  a child.  .  The problem is thier adult mind projects and remembers false things to be real.