Phony claims of codependancy vs Actual fear of loyalty and control

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My ex came from a VERY disordered household and she used to say that her parents were very controlling and loyalty was a serious problem.

I understand that Cluster B's feel with tremendous intensity and they are plagued with intense abandonment fears, engulfment fears, shame and unworthiness.  I understand that this intensity makes them think they have the capacity to be so loving and caring yet their actions fall very short of their words. My ex told me a couple of times she though she might be codependent because she said she cared so much for people and didn't have boundaries.  I look back and laugh at that idea because codependency would imply a caretaker roll, something she didn't do. Quite the opposite actually.  

Why do they have a perceived fear of loyalty and control from other people when it is they that exhibit the most controlling and un loyal behaviors?  Is this merely projection and I'm reading into too deep?  :)o they not see how controlling they actually are or is it just part of the FOG?

She liked to say I was controlling and manipulating yet honestly, I let her do as she pleased. She probably stayed with me longer than anyone else because I put so few expectations on her. I had a few expectations that I guess could be considered controlling but they were things that I would have expected from any adult relationship.  It felt like she was a child.   I'm the one that didn't have boundaries putting up with it and then If I brought it up I was controlling.  So frustrating.  

Among other things. Her shutting down at the fear of being in a reciprocating relationship caused our anxieties to bounce off one another -  She thought I was really controlling then.  She admitted to her longstanding fear of intimacy problem in private but not in couples therapy were it would have done us some good. After that, I knew she had an inability to change, her fear of people controlling her seemed disproportionate to the abuse and control she dished out.

Can a BPD/NPD partner have codependency? Or is this just a deflection from the truth?

Can BPD/NPD be mistaken for Codependency?

[Tomzxz]

My ex came from a VERY disordered household and she used to say that her parents were very controlling and loyalty was a serious problem.

I understand that Cluster B's feel with tremendous intensity and they are plagued with intense abandonment fears, engulfment fears, shame and unworthiness.  I understand that this intensity makes them think they have the capacity to be so loving and caring yet their actions fall very short of their words. My ex told me a couple of times she though she might be codependent because she said she cared so much for people and didn't have boundaries.  I look back and laugh at that idea because codependency would imply a caretaker roll, something she didn't do. Quite the opposite actually.  

Why do they have a perceived fear of loyalty and control from other people when it is they that exhibit the most controlling and un loyal behaviors?  Is this merely projection and I'm reading into too deep?  :)o they not see how controlling they actually are or is it just part of the FOG?

She liked to say I was controlling and manipulating yet honestly, I let her do as she pleased. She probably stayed with me longer than anyone else because I put so few expectations on her. I had a few expectations that I guess could be considered controlling but they were things that I would have expected from any adult relationship.  It felt like she was a child.   I'm the one that didn't have boundaries putting up with it and then If I brought it up I was controlling.  So frustrating.  

Among other things. Her shutting down at the fear of being in a reciprocating relationship caused our anxieties to bounce off one another -  She thought I was really controlling then.  She admitted to her longstanding fear of intimacy problem in private but not in couples therapy were it would have done us some good. After that, I knew she had an inability to change, her fear of people controlling her seemed disproportionate to the abuse and control she dished out.

Can a BPD/NPD partner have codependency? Or is this just a deflection from the truth?

Can BPD/NPD be mistaken for Codependency?

[Mutt]

My ex told me a couple of times she though she might be codependent because she said she cared so much for people and didn't have boundaries.  

Hi Tomzxz,

You are correct that a person with BPD have insecurities, fears and are scared of the world and have a dependency on others.  Your ex may be a compassionate person, you know her better than anyone else on the boards.

A pwBPD do have poor boundaries on the self and have difficulties understanding the boundaries of others and don't know where they end and the other person begins, we may become enmeshed in the relationship and enable poor mental health and dysfunctional behaviors.

Maybe her complaint was that you had floating boundaries in the r/s and you set boundaries and limits?

For the enabler a codependent relationship fulfills a strong drive to feel needed. Some enablers always need to be in a relationship because they feel lost or lonely when they’re by themselves.  Codependents are often inherently afraid of being rejected or abandoned, even if they can function on their own, and in these cases the enabling behavior is a way to mitigate fears of abandonment.  Codependent enablers often lack in self-worth and define their worth through another's eyes, thoughts, or views of them. They need other people to validate them to feel okay about themselves and without this, they are unable to find their own worth or identity.  For some, the codependent relationship will satisfy the need to feel competent and low self-esteem is boosted by comparing oneself to the dysfunctional partner.

For the enabled person the dependence on the enabler is equally profound. In a codependent relationship, their poor functioning essentially brings them much needed love, care, and concern from an enabler and they are accepted as they are with their addiction, or poor mental or physical health.  The enabler's consistent support reduces the outside pressures on the enabled person to mature, or advance their life skills or confidence.  And, due to their below average functioning, the enabled person may have few relationships as close as their relationship with the enabler. This makes them highly dependent on the enabler to satisfy needs normally met by multiple close relationships.

It is this high degree of mutual, unhealthy dependence on the part of both the enabler and the enabled that makes the relationship codependent and resistant to change. It is often very hard for either person to end a relationship even when the relationship is painful or abusive. It is not unusual for one or both to feel trapped.

Sharon Wegscheider-Cruse, founding chairperson of the National Association for Children of Alcoholics, describes codependency as "a specific condition that is characterized by preoccupation and extreme dependence — emotionally, socially and sometimes physically — on another person".

This type and degree of dependency on another person is destructive to both parties. Codependence is a quite different matter from interdependence.

Codependency and Codependent Relationships

[Tomzxz]

Mutt,

She was anything but compassionate when she was dysregulated or following NPD protocol and that would have been anytime after the first six months.  Sure she would help a turtle across the street but she would watch me go down in flames if I expected something from the relationship.  It was strange, I really couldn't communicate with her. Like she had some power over me, as if she could mute me.  I'm sure she thought I was a terrible communicator but really I'm not. That was my fault. Me walking on eggshells. I was afraid of saying something that would tick her off and cause her to leave (my codependency)   I can see that we were both enablers and enabled at times.  The term enmeshed did come up from time to time.  

I really don't see how it would have gotten that bad if her NPD wasn't tossed into the mix.  I'm looking at the patterns and characteristics of codependence right now and they look eerily similar to many of the BPD/NPD/HPD behaviors.  I think her idea that she might be codependent was just her way of saying she was dysfunctional lite because at times codependence sounds like a nice thing when it is reciprocated but without boundaries its a problem. Is it even possible to have an interdependent relationship in todays world when dysfunction is commonplace?

This might be worthy of a second post but I still struggle with understanding boundaries and I don't think I'm alone here. I'm not sure if I fully understand them short of the big ones like abuse or infidelity.  Perhaps I know what they are I just don't want to admit when someone crosses them because then it is decision time if I should stay or go, ergo abandonment fear.

What does it feel like to express boundaries to a healthy person?

Are boundaries an extension of our self worth?

When should something be a boundary and when should something just be accepted / Floating boundary?

Do boundaries change as a relationship progresses?

Do healthy people even need to talk about boundaries or is it implied?

Can someone direct me to a good source of information on boundaries?

[Mutt]

Hi Tomzxz,

Don't be hard on yourself. Honestly, I had floating boundaries in the relationship and it was not until I set firm boundaries that she started acting out. It's easier to set boundaries at the oneset of the relationship rather than set them later in the relationship, it's harder to adjust.

I learned about boundaries here - bpdfamily. I have a dysfunctional family and I was mostly raised by a father with NPD traits.

I'll answer your questions as best as I can. That's a good question about self worth vs boundaries, boundaries are an invisible outward layer that protects our morals and values, an easy way of explaining is; it keeps the good stuff in and the bad stuff out.

Since the break-up, I make different choices with the people that I call friends, they are good people and I keep them close.

Boundaries are flexible and malleable, you don't want to have fences that are too high, I do have rigid boundaries on certain things with my ex but I also have other areas that I have softened my boundaries. I communicate things once to her and I don't JADE ( Justify, Attack, Defend, Explain ) because if I explain things it opens the doors to conflict and I don't treat everyone the same way, my ex is mentally ill and I find that I have to defend the same boundaries, whereas I don't have to defend the same boundaries with a healthier, functional person. I hope that helps.

Here's are a couple of good articles on enmeshment and boundaries:

Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits

Dangers of Enmeshment

[Tomzxz]

Thanks Mutt!

That is very helpful!  Especially the malleable description. I figured it was dependent on the person we are interacting with in the moment. 

I didn't think boundaries needed to be set in the beginning because she seemed like a normal, rational person capable of developing a stable relationship. She's probably saying the same thing about me right now.  I see now, that the combination of red flags should have made me think otherwise.  And your correct. It was when I started to call her out on her bs that things fell apart fast.  My first hard boundary was for her to end her two month silent treatment and not talk to me in a condescending way.  She ran off and sulked for a day, we had sex the next day and from then on the relationship was full of unbearable tension. It ended four months later.

[Mutt]

I see now, that the combination of red flags should have made me think otherwise.

You're welcome Tomzxz   Many of us share similar experiences and my ex seemed normal and I did see some red flags and I ignored them too.

I'm speaking for myself when I say this and it doesn't mean that my experience is the same as yours but we got intimate too quickly and we rushed into everything. It wasn't until we moved in together that her fears of engulfment were triggered and she started to act out.

I think that it helps to get to know someone and if we have boundaries then the push / pull behavior rubbing against our boundaries should raise alarm bells, boundaries protect and take care of us.

I set my first hard boundary with her several years into the relationship. I hated with how she would embarrass me with trying to pick fights in front of family and friends, people that I loved and trusted and I told her enough is enough. If you treat me this way, I don't want to be with you in the presence of family. I had thought that she would understand how I felt, things quickly deteriorated in our relationship, we were over a couple of years later.

Knowing what I know now is that she is emotionally immature, BPD is arrested emotional development and really she was embarrassing herself, it's about her, it's not about me.

[Tomzxz]

Mutt,

You know this is coming so let me get it out of the way.  Was your ex my ex? Ha

Everything you said sounds like it came right from my ex's playbook.  I find the behavior pattern to be fascinating that people from all walks of life and age that have this problem tend to do the same thing down to almost the same details.  You would think with such a predictable pattern a diagnoses and help wouldn't be that difficult for them.  It's all about admitting they have a problem I guess and that's all too shameful.  They really are a tired cliché'

We moved too fast.  Knowing what I know now, sometimes I wonder, could we still be together if Instead of moving in after a year I moved in after two? Instead of proposing after two proposing after four?  It really did seem like the more intimate the relationship got the more disordered things became then they would settle down to a new, higher "crazy" plateau.  she was very high functioning so maybe if things moved at a snails pace we could have kept it together. IDK, I guess I'm just kidding myself, it's hard to realize it was all bs.  Her NPD was the real killer in the relationship.

I wish I could direct my ex to this web page but she would most likely file a restraining order on me if I ever reached out to her.  The odd thing is, six months out and she still has a picture of me and her on her face book cover page, the rest is blocked.  I suppose that's bait. Or something to stir up trouble if my new girlfriend ever stumbles onto her page. Twisted chick if there ever was one.  The Facebook things showed me what a horrible person she is.  I couldn't have imagined her being so mean to anyone in the beginning of the relationship let alone me someday.  Ouch!

[Mutt]

You know this is coming so let me get it out of the way.  Was your ex my ex? Ha

Everything you said sounds like it came right from my ex's playbook.

I had similar thoughts when I read your OP   I felt like I completely related to your story so I thought I would share.

I had similar feelings after I someone pointed me in the right direction and said "borderline personality disorder" and I could see the behaviors described in literature match with my ex wife's behaviors.

I can see how it would seem like it's bs but it's sad how she wants intimacy and she can't handle emotional intimacy and pushes people away then pulls when her fears of abandonment are triggered.

My ex wife is undiagnosed, untreated and she doesn't give me the impression that she's very self aware and she's not willing to help herself, only she can do help herself.

I think that the thing that I struggled with most in my recovery is that somebody that I loved so much is mentally ill. Her reality is very real to her, just like how we interpret our reality, BPD is ingrained in her personality , our personalities are difficult to change. Think about that.

I hear you on if we had done certain things in the r/s, maybe things would have worked out but at the beginning of the relationship she idealized me 100% of the time. As the months and years went on, I would be idealized 80%, 60%  of the time until the last couple of years it was mostly devaluation until the relationship broke.

I tried everything that I could to try and fix things, keep in mind I didn't know about PD's or BPD. I did the best that I could with what I knew at the time. What can you do when a loved one doesn't want to help themselves? I let go with grace.

[Tomzxz]

Mutt,

Yes the push pull is something a person truly needs to see to believe.  When it's happening its almost surreal.

People don't really understand what went wrong so I just say she was a high conflict person.  Some people seem to get offended that I try to label her.  She is undiagnosed but I read too many descriptions and stories that match her behavior too close to be a coincidence. I know that's not scientific but then again neither is therapy, or psychology.  Besides, we lived together, nobody knows her better than me.  I probably know her better than she knows herself.

My ex has been through so many failed short term relations ships, she actually is starting to become self aware but her Narcissist traits seem to take over at that point and sabotage any chance of growing when she puts all the blame on someone else.  Who knows, I ten years she might look back and say she did wrong to a decent guy just like she said about her ex husband ten years before me.  

I go back and forth between really hating her some days and just feeling sorry for her other days.  Then other days I don't care about her. I just don't have much sympathy for a person who keeps repeating mistakes to the detriment of others as well as themselves.

Funny you mention the percentages.  My ex was actually starting to use percentages in our relationship.  She would say in a valentines card that she was happy 98% of the time. Then later 85% of the time.  It's just a very cold way to express love in a relationship.

I know the emotions are a problem for her, but I still cant understand why she wont talk to me about her condition.  She's not as smart as she acts but she's astute, she could benefit form therapy.

I just wish she would stop skirting the issue by thinking she has codependency.

[Mutt]

I just wish she would stop skirting the issue by thinking she has codependency.

Hi Tomzxz,

I use the term HCP if somebody asks too. I say:

She's high conflict, some people are just like that

I don't get questioned beyond that.

I find BPD is misunderstood, it carries a stigma, it has to be difficult to admit that you have the most difficult personality disorder?