Issue with my mom caring for her mother

[Depression = 72% of members]

Not quite on topic, but this is probably the most relevant board to post this. 

I don't suspect either my mother or her mother of having a personality disorder, but there are some trauma/codependency issues that I thought I'd just put out there and see if anybody has any thoughts.

My maternal grandmother is 92 years old, and my grandfather died 2 1/2 years ago.  Their marriage was more dutiful than happy (I'm certain he had narcissistic traits, and it's possible that he had NPD).

My grandmother is still in good enough physical health to live on her own (yep!) and she lives in a house in a retirement community.  She doesn't want to give up her house and go to a nursing home, but she is also terrified to sleep alone.  She says the devil is in the dark.

So one of my mom and her two sisters has to stay with my grandmother every night.  My mom is the eldest and lives the closest, so guess who that means does it the vast majority of the time.

My mom suspects my grandmother was abused in the dark.  But all she can get out of her is that it's the devil.  My grandmother is a European immigrant, she speaks English well enough but she compensated in how she hears vs. reads words for years without getting a hearing aid, so now she has hearing issues even with a hearing aid.  All of that makes psychotherapy difficult if not out of the question.

So the problem is my mother's routine is disrupted on a regular basis - she's retired now, but she still wants to be at her house, she's divided between two places (it's a 15 minute drive between).  One of my mother's core patterns is that in the event of conflict, or two people's interests/needs bumping up against one another even a little bit, my mother's response is to immediately forfeit her needs.  Not all the time, but in enough key situations.

I just talked to my mother on the phone, and she told me that she is starting to practice saying no... .for example, my mom and grandma were at the pharmacy and the skin cream my mother wanted wasn't on the shelf, so an employee had gone to check if they had any in stock.  My grandma came and said "I'm ready to go," and my mom told her she was waiting for them to check if they had the cream.  My mom says, in the past, even in the recent past, as soon as her mother came and said "let's go"... .she'd go.  I told her that made me sad.  This is an example of what I mean by immediately forfeiting her interests.  And my mom says my grandma is now "learning", that she doesn't come over and say "let's go" anymore.  Small steps, my mom says.  And I said, that's good, sometimes that's how it happens.

I think that's enough detail for now.  I guess I just feel concerned about my mother, I understand that caring for an aging parent can involve these types of situations, I just wish there were some sort of better solution than her constantly driving back and forth.

[eeks]

Not quite on topic, but this is probably the most relevant board to post this. 

I don't suspect either my mother or her mother of having a personality disorder, but there are some trauma/codependency issues that I thought I'd just put out there and see if anybody has any thoughts.

My maternal grandmother is 92 years old, and my grandfather died 2 1/2 years ago.  Their marriage was more dutiful than happy (I'm certain he had narcissistic traits, and it's possible that he had NPD).

My grandmother is still in good enough physical health to live on her own (yep!) and she lives in a house in a retirement community.  She doesn't want to give up her house and go to a nursing home, but she is also terrified to sleep alone.  She says the devil is in the dark.

So one of my mom and her two sisters has to stay with my grandmother every night.  My mom is the eldest and lives the closest, so guess who that means does it the vast majority of the time.

My mom suspects my grandmother was abused in the dark.  But all she can get out of her is that it's the devil.  My grandmother is a European immigrant, she speaks English well enough but she compensated in how she hears vs. reads words for years without getting a hearing aid, so now she has hearing issues even with a hearing aid.  All of that makes psychotherapy difficult if not out of the question.

So the problem is my mother's routine is disrupted on a regular basis - she's retired now, but she still wants to be at her house, she's divided between two places (it's a 15 minute drive between).  One of my mother's core patterns is that in the event of conflict, or two people's interests/needs bumping up against one another even a little bit, my mother's response is to immediately forfeit her needs.  Not all the time, but in enough key situations.

I just talked to my mother on the phone, and she told me that she is starting to practice saying no... .for example, my mom and grandma were at the pharmacy and the skin cream my mother wanted wasn't on the shelf, so an employee had gone to check if they had any in stock.  My grandma came and said "I'm ready to go," and my mom told her she was waiting for them to check if they had the cream.  My mom says, in the past, even in the recent past, as soon as her mother came and said "let's go"... .she'd go.  I told her that made me sad.  This is an example of what I mean by immediately forfeiting her interests.  And my mom says my grandma is now "learning", that she doesn't come over and say "let's go" anymore.  Small steps, my mom says.  And I said, that's good, sometimes that's how it happens.

I think that's enough detail for now.  I guess I just feel concerned about my mother, I understand that caring for an aging parent can involve these types of situations, I just wish there were some sort of better solution than her constantly driving back and forth.

[Kwamina]

Hi eeks aka kungfu kitty

She doesn't want to give up her house and go to a nursing home, but she is also terrified to sleep alone.  She says the devil is in the dark.

... .

My mom suspects my grandmother was abused in the dark.  But all she can get out of her is that it's the devil.

If your grandmother would have been abused, that would definitely be a traumatic experience. Do you perhaps notice other 'odd' behaviors of your grandmother that could possibly indicate some past trauma? Is there perhaps also other evidence that would support that she might have been abused?

I just talked to my mother on the phone, and she told me that she is starting to practice saying no... .for example, my mom and grandma were at the pharmacy and the skin cream my mother wanted wasn't on the shelf, so an employee had gone to check if they had any in stock.  My grandma came and said "I'm ready to go," and my mom told her she was waiting for them to check if they had the cream.  My mom says, in the past, even in the recent past, as soon as her mother came and said "let's go"... .she'd go.  I told her that made me sad.  This is an example of what I mean by immediately forfeiting her interests.  And my mom says my grandma is now "learning", that she doesn't come over and say "let's go" anymore.  Small steps, my mom says.  And I said, that's good, sometimes that's how it happens.

It's seems your mother is slowly attempting to set and enforce boundaries with your grandmother. Would you say that your mother generally is comfortable setting and enforcing/defending boundaries with people (including other people than your grandmother?

You mention how your mother tends to forfeit her needs in the event of conflict. Does she just do this with your grandmother (and possibly other family-members) or also with other people outside of the family?

Kwamina aka Captain Red Beak

[eeks]

If your grandmother would have been abused, that would definitely be a traumatic experience. Do you perhaps notice other 'odd' behaviors of your grandmother that could possibly indicate some past trauma? Is there perhaps also other evidence that would support that she might have been abused?

My mom and her sisters say that their mother plays the "martyr" role.  I haven't inquired more fully into what specific behaviours that relates to, but for example, my mom's youngest sister R. lives in the US (we live in Canada) and R. and her husband did not fly here for Christmas, they're visiting in January instead.  R. said the two of them stayed home and had oxtail stew for Christmas dinner.  (That doesn't mean anything in particular, other than it's not our traditional Christmas meal)  My mom overheard my grandmother on the phone with R. saying "Why didn't you have people over?  Why didn't you serve this and that for dinner?"  My mom speculates that she wanted R. to visit for Christmas and so she was making her feel bad for not coming.

She also cleans the house compulsively.  My mom, her middle sister and I are not like this, but my mom's youngest sister, my cousin (middle sister's eldest daughter) and my sister are, which leads me to think it is some kind of family coping strategy.  With the latter two, it goes beyond a preference for order into "you are morally wrong and personally offending me if you do not comply with my standards" (apparently my cousin once slapped her daughter for not putting away a fork, and my sister is currently not speaking to me and as far as I can tell it is about my emotional reactions to her scolding me for not putting a dish in the dishwasher, for example). 

My grandmother complains about being lonely, and someone invited her with a group to a restaurant in a town 20 minutes away, and my mom asked her how was it?  and all she said apparently was "The food was expensive, and besides I have been to [that town] before"  So there's a kind of a "having problems but being unwilling to accept solutions" theme there.

The more I read, the more I think my grandfather would have qualified for a diagnosis of NPD.  My mother says he said he was perfect, and always right, and he knew everything (and his wife and daughters knew nothing) and he actually believed it.  (And they found out after he died that people in the community thought he was "weird".)  My mom says that my grandmother just silently obeyed him, e.g. would stand there doing and saying nothing while my grandfather was verbally abusing my mom.  Which has a cultural and religious component, for women, but I think it's more than that.

So I don't know about whether my grandmother was abused, but I have to assume at minimum developmental trauma and chronic emotional neglect.  My grandmother's family growing up was poor, she was taken from her family at 17 to work on a vegetable farm for the WWII efforts, she met my grandfather in a displaced persons camp after the war, my mom was born there, my grandfather came to Canada first and they followed when my mom was 2.  They had very little when they came here too, my grandfather worked various physical labour jobs wherever he could find them.  Typical immigrant story in so many ways, and yet I believe that I and others are still carrying in our nervous systems the "signature" of these hardships from our family lines. 

When my mom was in grade 9, she said she came downstairs to the kitchen after crying because her boyfriend along with his family was moving to a city 2 hours away.  And her mother was standing in the kitchen and silently shook her head, as in "don't show emotions".  My mom says the attitude about feelings was you stop, you just stop yourself from expressing them.

It's seems your mother is slowly attempting to set and enforce boundaries with your grandmother. Would you say that your mother generally is comfortable setting and enforcing/defending boundaries with people (including other people than your grandmother?

Generally, no I would not say she is comfortable setting boundaries.  She tells me that she thinks the thoughts, that something is unfair or an expectation is unreasonable, but she often doesn't say anything. (I told her that was a good sign, that she is still aware of the impulse, all she has to do is notice before she goes into the usual silence, and speak it instead)  She stood up for me against my dad (although she says she still felt she had to "teach me to not trigger his anger", and since that anger was unpredictable and explosive, that's an undue burden on me).   

So not always, but often she will find ways to rationalize having to do what other people want.  She has been unhappy in her marriage (to my dad) for years, but she says she doesn't leave because she is a "coward", which is a step towards self-awareness I guess but doesn't really need to be so self-critical, it doesn't encourage valuing her needs?  She is afraid if she tells him she's leaving, she doesn't think he'll be physically violent to her but she thinks he will destroy property (that fear is justified in my opinion) and that he will be vengeful in the divorce. 

So she just tells herself things are OK, she likes the house, the cats, the quiet, reading, watching the birds at the feeder... .

[eeks]

You mention how your mother tends to forfeit her needs in the event of conflict. Does she just do this with your grandmother (and possibly other family-members) or also with other people outside of the family?

She does it with everybody, and again finds a way to rationalize it.  For example, silly little example but it's the one I thought of, she told me she was at the library and picked up one of the "new releases" (a shorter loan, 7 days I think) and took it to the counter to check it out, and she was informed that someone had just placed a hold on it.  As in, within the last few minutes while the book was likely in her hands.  She says she thought to herself "that person isn't here, are they?" but she didn't say that to the library employee.  I think a lot of people in that situation would attempt to negotiate even if they know they might not get what they want, because of the chance that they might.  She, however, just silently accepts many such things.

And I think I understand why, she says when she was a teenager if she would have disagreed with her dad or said "no" he would have verbally abused and/or slapped her.  But it's still an unhealthy pattern and definitely influenced her expectations of me.

However, it's complicated.  There is a strange pattern in my family I have just begun to notice... .it seems that there are a number of individuals who are tyrannical towards some people, and codependent/submissive towards others, and sometimes both to the same person at different times!  I didn't think that narcissistic traits/NPD and codependency could coexist in the same person, but for example, my mom's father was emotionally abusive at home, but when it came to business he was a pushover, uninformed, got taken advantage of by some people, backed out at the last minute of what would have been good deals, etc.

I suppose it kind of makes sense, if there are narcissistic dynamics in my family, that "doer" or "done to" are the only two roles/scripts available.

I mentioned this thing where my mom (or one of her sisters) have to sleep at my grandma's house.  This year over the holidays I went with her there for a few nights.  I think it was our 4th night there, the 3 of us were watching television, and my grandmother (furthest from the door) gets up to go to bed.  I was reclined on the loveseat closest to the door.  My grandmother picked up our tea mugs to take them to the kitchen (see: compulsive cleaning) and I grabbed mine because it was still more than half full and I wanted to finish it!  And my grandmother kept pulling on the mug, while I was holding it down on the table, which was really weird!  

While this was happening, my mom quietly hisses at me "Say goodnight to her!"  (my grandmother likely didn't hear it, I mentioned her hearing issues)  Now, my mother knows that I have said goodnight to my grandmother every single night we have been there.  Also, I am 37 years old.  

When my grandmother had left the room, I lost it.  My mother justified her actions, as usual.  She said "you were turned away, so I thought you weren't going to say it"  "If you don't say goodnight to her, she might feel rejected and ignored"  so as usual we end up with her vigorously defending the correctness of her criticism/advice of me, and me vigorously trying to divert the focus away from the content, to the context and dynamics of why and how she said it.  

My response was "I feel rejected and ignored often, and I am supposed to anticipate and prevent others feeling this even temporarily?"  "I said goodnight to her every single night we have been here, and I initiated it, so you can [something I can't print here]!"

So my mother is sitting there silently crying while we are watching television, and I feel like the "bad guy", because I swore at her and was "rude", which is pretty much the cardinal sin in our family.  To be fair, I am aware that I need to find a way to not take her "stuff" personally.  Over the last 2 years or so, I have began to react strongly when perfectionism goes beyond high standards, into a need to anticipate others' reactions and preempt them assuming the worst of my intentions by never doing anything that might carry even the slightest whiff of possible interpretation of an offense.  

This degree of perfectionism is problematic in at least two ways I can think of.  First of all, as my therapist points out, it is exhausting.  Second, when someone does get offended or angry at something I've done, I often panic (freeze), because it feels like this terrible thing that I was supposed to prevent at all costs, happened.  I would rather (plus I think it is much healthier) to learn ways to just directly engage in conversation with people who feel offended, and sort it out, without feeling shame about it.  

After a while my mother said, among other things, that if I didn't say goodnight, she was afraid that her mother would think she was a bad parent.  I asked my mom, "Is it like that inside your head all the time, the perfectionism and criticism?"  And she said "yes".  When I have imagined into some past situations "what my parent might have been feeling at the time", what often comes up for either of them is the sense that in some way, they are still in allegiance to, "turned towards" their internalized relationship with their own parents, more than they are "turned towards" relating to me.

And I haven't even talked about my father yet!  It's amazing how difficult it is to release the fantasy that I can make my parents into emotionally healthy parents who approve of me... .just by being perfect.  I have a good friend who I often have in-depth conversations with (he has had some therapy and done quite a bit of personal learning) and he has said to me a number of times, "your mother has proven over and over that she cannot empathize with you, and she will never* change" (*not without years of psychotherapy)

[Turkish]

I think it's a positive sign both that your mother is learning to assert boundaries, and that your GM is responding positively, even with baby-steps.

That there is both a generational issue, as well as one cultural, definitely complicates things. I came to think of this as both cultural and generational inertia. A pebble hitting a boulder wil, always bounce back.

The narcissistic family system has likely been more the norm over the past who knows how many thousands of years. Individuals serve to meet the needs of the family unit. Someone sent me this link last year, in order to understand my Ex's family better (immigrants; Old World attitudes). Perhaps it can help:

Understanding The Narcissistc Family

[Kwamina]

Hi eeks

Thanks for so elaborately answering my questions!

When I read your post I can see that there are certain dynamics in your family that probably developed a long time ago and are still in place now. I totally agree with what you say here:

Typical immigrant story in so many ways, and yet I believe that I and others are still carrying in our nervous systems the "signature" of these hardships from our family lines.

I think especially in the past people were supposed to just move on after experiencing hardship or to just take it without complaining. This results in unresolved trauma and unprocessed emotions, which in turn can lead to unhealthy or even destructive coping mechanisms and family dynamics. Children raised in such an environment will then indirectly be confronted with the trauma, even if they themselves weren't the ones who directly experienced that trauma. So long as the trauma isn't addressed and healed and the old emotions aren't processed, I too believe that the 'signature' or 'footprint' of this trauma can then be passed down from generation to generation.

The Karpman Triangle might also be a good model for at least some of your family dynamics. You are trying to extricate yourself from these dynamics and to help you do that, the 'Caring' or 'Winning' Triangle might be helpful:

In 1990, Acey Choy M.Ed., PTSTA, introduced the Winning Triangle in the Transactional Analysis Journal as the antithesis of the Karpman Triangle. Her work has been heralded by Dr. Karpman as "excellent". Choy contrasts the unhealthy dynamics of each role of the Karpman triangle with healthy dynamics. Fjelstad, in her book, Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist, offers a similar model.

... .

Assert rather than persecute. Instead of the actions of the persecutor,  who blames and punishes - give up trying to force or manipulate others to do what you want. Take on the new behaviors of "doing " and "asserting ". Ask for what you want. Say no for what you don't want. Give constructive feedback. Initiate negotiations. Take positive action.

Be vulnerable, but not a victim. "Victims " often feel overwhelmed, too defeated to solve their problems and emotions. They look to someone else to do it for them. Instead of the victim  role you need to be emotionally mature (vulnerable, not needy), accept the situation you are in and take responsibility to problem solve and function in a more healthy and happy way. Put real thought into what you want and how to get it, and take action to make it happen.

Be caring, but don't overstep. We do not want to let our fears, obligation and guilt to control us or allow us to be manipulated into taking care of another person when it really isn't healthy to do so. Instead of being the rescuer  and doing the thinking, taking the lead, doing more than our share, doing more than is asked of us -  simply be a supportive, empathetic listener and provide reflection, coaching, and assistance if the person asks and is taking the lead themselves. It is important to recognize the other person as an equal (not one-down) and give the other person the respect of letting them take care of themselves, solve their own problems, and deal with their feelings as they choose. Remember, the rescuer  has the most pivotal position on the drama triangle - you are in the strongest position, at least initially, to redirect the dynamic into healthy territory.

Take care

[Notwendy]

Eeks, I find your post to be very interesting and also, I think very appropriate since co-dependency is a dysfunctional relationship style and there tends to be a pattern of co-dependency matching partners with BPD. Your family shares similarities to my H's family- the unspoken family "rules" and expectations, co-dependency, not allowing any show of emotions, strict family loyalty to parents, adherence to routines and schedules, perfectionism.

By contrast, my family was chaotic with BPD mother's emotions ruling all of us. I grew up with co-dependent behaviors, not even knowing that this was not a normal way to behave. I don't think I knew what normal was. In comparison, my H's family looked like a Norman Rockwell painting, with sweet momma cooking all the time, doing housework, regular meals, ( not in my FOO and my mother did not cook). I thought her H (my FIL) was a bit odd, but didn't pick up on anything else.

So, when I experienced marital issues, I easily assumed that they had to be my problem. I was the one who grew up in a crazy family, and so I must be the one who has the crazy issues. If I brought up any problems, my H was quick to blame me and deny any part in it, so this made me think even more that it had to be me. If there was any silver lining to this, it was that I made huge efforts to work on my issues and my FOO issues, something I think we all can benefit from.

However, as I learned more about family dynamics, I started to notice things in my H's family. Naturally, those are for him to work out. While he can be irritated about his FOO, if I say anything, he can feel insulted. As his parents aged, they refused outside help and Momma insisted that only family members take care of them, even if this was a huge inconvenience to them. I discovered this when I got enlisted to help, even if it meant driving a distance and disrupting my responsibilities. Nobody cared about that. It was all about what Momma wanted. However, during this time, I got a glimpse of the side of her that was not obvious. When getting groceries and household items for her, everything had to be just exactly so- down to the brand of toilet paper. Now, I get that people have their favorites, but this was more than that.

Also, once when I was helping her get dressed, I did something the "wrong " way. Not sure what that was, maybe the shirt before the pants, or vice versa. That was when Momma got that "look" in her eyes, that vacant reptilian look that is so familiar to me because, I know that look when my mother dysregulates. And dear sweet "Momma" snapped at me in a very angry voice that I had not heard before from her.

She does not have BPD, but to me, co-dependency is part of the equation in families with PD relatives. I think her H has some form of PD. The family looks more controlled than mine does, because of the efforts to keep everything so controlled- no emotions, no change in routine.

The good part for you Eeks, is to explore this for you. If you grew up in this family, then the patterns have influenced you. How the other members of your family play a part in this is up to them to explore, but I think looking into this for you can be very helpful to you.

It would be interesting if anyone in your family had alcohol problems. Our ACOA group includes family dysfunction, even in the absence of alcohol, as they are similar, and have a lot of co-dependency. One of the dysfunctional family rules they discuss is ":)on't Trust. Don't Talk. Don't Feel" which you might relate to.

[eeks]

I think it's a positive sign both that your mother is learning to assert boundaries, and that your GM is responding positively, even with baby-steps.

That there is both a generational issue, as well as one cultural, definitely complicates things. I came to think of this as both cultural and generational inertia. A pebble hitting a boulder wil, always bounce back.

I agree that it's positive.  And I genuinely want to help her.  I started this thread with that intention.  However, after reflecting on what I wrote here, the suggestions I received in response, a recent conversation with a friend, etc. etc. I see that the possibilities for that right now may be limited.  I'll say more about that in subsequent responses.

The narcissistic family system has likely been more the norm over the past who knows how many thousands of years. Individuals serve to meet the needs of the family unit. Someone sent me this link last year, in order to understand my Ex's family better (immigrants; Old World attitudes). Perhaps it can help:

Understanding The Narcissistc Family

Yes, I'd agree with it being "the norm" up till relatively recently. 

You sent me this link before, and I read the thread here as well as the google books preview.  I did not read the full book at the time but I just put a hold on it from the library.  Aspects of the dynamic fit, like me being well cared for when I was quite small, but as I got older, the family system is not "robust" enough as it were to handle an older child's emotional needs so then the problems emerge.  I actually felt nauseous for 2 days after reading that link, not a usual symptom for me and no other cause I can pinpoint, I suspect it had an emotional basis and suggests there is "something there" for me.

[eeks]

The Karpman Triangle might also be a good model for at least some of your family dynamics. You are trying to extricate yourself from these dynamics and to help you do that, the 'Caring' or 'Winning' Triangle might be helpful:

I was thinking I need to figure out a way to not JADE, (especially in response to my mother's JADE-ing) so "extricate myself from the dynamic" would be the right way to put it, and this "winning triangle" may be helpful too.

I wouldn't say I have a lot of persecutor going on, but I think what happens is I have reinterpretations of my past, from a constant cloud of shame "I was given everything I needed to have a good life, more opportunities than most in fact, and I am still a huge failure, I must have squandered it" to "I had all my physical and intellectual needs met, but there was emotional neglect/abuse". 

And then I get angry.  And the anger is not because I want to blame someone, or make my mother feel bad, what I want is for her to acknowledge and validate the emotions and traits and experiences of me that she did not at the time.  Especially when I was a teenager/young adult.  When I recount the conversations during those years to her, and I tell her how I felt and what the effect was on me, she interprets this as a criticism. 

My two biggest complaints are:

1) The way she tried to indirectly nudge or control my behaviour without disclosing her fears, i.e. starting to treat me as more of an equal.  This is not because she thought I was immature or reckless, but rather her extreme fears and rigid need to control to avoid danger.  The more I think about it, she seems to go off into another time and another place, I think she may have complex PTSD.

Example:  When I got my first period at 13, I asked my mother for tampons.  I was taking ballet lessons and we wore skintight leotards and tights, and a pad just wouldn't be comfortable (males reading this, I trust you to take my word for it).  My mother said "you could try one of those thin pads".  I was not sure why she did not want me to have tampons.  I got them anyways, I forget if I bought them, accumulated free samples?  I asked her years later and she said she was afraid I would get toxic shock.  I told her "there's an insert on every package that says it's rare, and tells you what the symptoms are and to go to the emergency room if you have them".  Her mind just goes, boom! worst case scenario, she is afraid of the freak stuff, but misses the obvious dangers and harms right in front of her nose.  If she had disclosed her fears/concerns in this type of situation, most of the time I could have reassured her that there was no reasonable chance of what she feared occurring.

2) "Swim, but don't go near the water". 

Example:  after my first year of law school, I was thinking it was not for me, so I was going to quit and go to architecture school, with hopes of designing environmentally sustainable homes.  (Please note this was in 2003, when that was just a growing trend.  So I would have been right on top of that.)  I told my mother I was thinking about doing this, and the first thing she said was "Not many architects get to do that, most of them are designing boring houses in subdivisions."  I told her years later that I interpreted that as "you won't get there, so don't bother".  She said "I thought you could do it, I was just making sure you were prepared for the worst that could happen, and if you could accept that, then go and do it."  She says that she makes her decisions that way.  I don't.  I never have.  I told her I thought it would be foolish to do it after she'd warned me against it.  It has taken me several repetitions before she admitted that she understood the effect on my enthusiasm by being presented immediately with what might go wrong (because her parents did that to her) rather than, say "oh, that's an interesting idea, have you researched it?  could you talk to some people in the field to find out more?"  She was so concerned with me keeping my grades up (although she had no reason to worry, I was very organized with my homework, so it was really weird) so that I would have all the "opportunities" available to me, but then when I even so much as talk about said "opportunities" she shoots them down?  Hence, "swim but don't go near the water".  (She's the one who suggested I go to law school, by the way.)

The common variable between these two is that her responses to me eventually reveal themselves to be based mostly if not entirely on her emotions, not my personality or needs.  I would describe her emotional management style as "sniper".  Clean, quiet, and leaves you bewildered, wondering what just happened.  And so, I never fully adopted her way of living, but at the same time, it somehow felt "wrong" to go and do what I wanted to do, so I was sort of left in limbo.

I just realized, she had to be perfect for her parents, including being a perfect parent herself, so both the emotional situations in question as a teenager/young adult, and anything I bring up about it now, is probably a huge threat to her.  So she JADEs, I JADE, and we have a big old JADEfest which usually leads to at least a tiny bit of movement on the emotional self-awareness front for her, but it's... .not a very good return on investment for me, a lot of stress and struggle for the consequent reward, and uh... .I don't think she enjoys it much either.  (I want to suggest her to get therapy but she lives in a small town and I'm not sure if there's anyone who's any good.) 

If I look underneath my anger, it's a vulnerable hunger to be validated, recognized as a separate person, and treated as an equal. 

And so, if her predominant dynamic is anticipating and avoiding danger, (and as such, not really talking to me, engaging with me as a person and the unique facts and variables of my situation) why would I continue to go to her to try to get this need met?  For a long time, the answer was that I felt like I had no one else in my life I could rely on.  I dated but was never in a relationship.  I tried going to several therapists who seemed to either give me pat advice on only the most superficial aspects of my problems, or sit there and say nothing, and I concluded that therapy was a waste of time.  I had friends but we didn't talk about this kind of stuff, or if we did they couldn't relate.  It's funny, my friends in university tended to be introverts who made sensible, not too exciting or passionate career and relationship decisions and stuck with them (i.e. my mother's ideal daughter!)

And so now, I mentioned I have a friend who is very intelligent and observant who I talk about this stuff with, and he (compassionately but firmly) reminds me repeatedly that my mother is incapable of meeting my need for validation.  He recently asked me something like "What would it take to detach from your parents".  I found it a really provocative question.  I don't phone her nearly as often as I used to, but even so, as I mentioned before, I still somehow maintain the fantasy of her meeting those needs.  And I still try to be perfect and never a nuisance so that my father will accept me, even though we rarely talk.  There may be physical distance, and reduced contact, but I haven't "emotionally left home" as Dan Neuharth puts it.

OK, there's more I want to respond to here, but I've processed a lot, so I'm just going to summarize for now

1) I need to grieve that my parents could not meet my emotional needs.  One of the obstacles to doing that was (as my therapist put it) my family treating me like a "lightning rod" (projective identification).  I feel that this often happened when I was at risk of revealing that there was a problem in our family, I would be peppered with nagging criticism and correction.  It has been frightening for me to 1) become aware of my own perceptions of things 2) declare them to myself. 

2) I may have complex PTSD, or if not, enough similarity to it to get some use out of Pete Walker's book. Also on the library hold list.  (My city's library is quite good for self-help and psychology titles.)  It is exciting for me to think about the freedom of directly engaging with life rather than needing to consult a list of rules for everything, but I have intense fear reactions that I will have to figure out how to manage.

Gratitude and kitty headbutts,

eeks

[Kwamina]

The common variable between these two is that her responses to me eventually reveal themselves to be based mostly if not entirely on her emotions, not my personality or needs.  I would describe her emotional management style as "sniper".  Clean, quiet, and leaves you bewildered, wondering what just happened.  And so, I never fully adopted her way of living, but at the same time, it somehow felt "wrong" to go and do what I wanted to do, so I was sort of left in limbo.

This is a very important point you make here. As hard as it often is to deal with the behavior of disordered people, what they say and do is mostly a reflection of their own emotions and distorted thinking. It is easy to take things personally especially when things seem to be in direct response to us, but indeed the responses (though sometimes perhaps triggered by us) are often more a result of a distorted perception of reality caused by distorted thinking patterns.

And so now, I mentioned I have a friend who is very intelligent and observant who I talk about this stuff with, and he (compassionately but firmly) reminds me repeatedly that my mother is incapable of meeting my need for validation.  He recently asked me something like "What would it take to detach from your parents".  I found it a really provocative question.  I don't phone her nearly as often as I used to, but even so, as I mentioned before, I still somehow maintain the fantasy of her meeting those needs.  And I still try to be perfect and never a nuisance so that my father will accept me, even though we rarely talk.  There may be physical distance, and reduced contact, but I haven't "emotionally left home" as Dan Neuharth puts it.

How does the thought of detaching from your parents make you feel?

What thoughts go through your mind when you think about not being perfect? What other words come to mind when you think of 'not being absolutely perfect'? At the beginning of your post you say this:

"I wouldn't say I have a lot of persecutor going on, but I think what happens is I have reinterpretations of my past, from a constant cloud of shame "I was given everything I needed to have a good life, more opportunities than most in fact, and I am still a huge failure, I must have squandered it" to "I had all my physical and intellectual needs met, but there was emotional neglect/abuse"."

Are this the kinds of thoughts that go through your head when you consider 'not being perfect'?

This is what Pete Walker says about perfection:

"My perfectionism arose as an attempt to gain safety and support in my dangerous family. Perfection is a self-persecutory myth. I do not have to be perfect to be safe or loved in the present. I am letting go of relationships that require perfection. I have a right to make mistakes. Mistakes do not make me a mistake. Every mistake or mishap is an opportunity to practice loving myself in the places I have never been loved."

It is exciting for me to think about the freedom of directly engaging with life rather than needing to consult a list of rules for everything, but I have intense fear reactions that I will have to figure out how to manage.

What is that you are most afraid of? Pete Walker also talks about fear and how to manage it:

"Feel the fear in your body without reacting to it. Fear is just an energy in your body that cannot hurt you if you do not run from it or react self-destructively to it."

Many children of disordered parents posting here also have (c)PTSD or symptoms of it. You might want to check out this thread:

Dealing with trauma: PTSD, C-PTSD and emotional flashbacks

[eeks]

Eeks, I find your post to be very interesting and also, I think very appropriate since co-dependency is a dysfunctional relationship style and there tends to be a pattern of co-dependency matching partners with BPD. Your family shares similarities to my H's family- the unspoken family "rules" and expectations, co-dependency, not allowing any show of emotions, strict family loyalty to parents, adherence to routines and schedules, perfectionism.

By contrast, my family was chaotic with BPD mother's emotions ruling all of us. I grew up with co-dependent behaviors, not even knowing that this was not a normal way to behave. I don't think I knew what normal was. In comparison, my H's family looked like a Norman Rockwell painting, with sweet momma cooking all the time, doing housework, regular meals, ( not in my FOO and my mother did not cook). I thought her H (my FIL) was a bit odd, but didn't pick up on anything else.

So, when I experienced marital issues, I easily assumed that they had to be my problem. I was the one who grew up in a crazy family, and so I must be the one who has the crazy issues. If I brought up any problems, my H was quick to blame me and deny any part in it, so this made me think even more that it had to be me. If there was any silver lining to this, it was that I made huge efforts to work on my issues and my FOO issues, something I think we all can benefit from.

Hi Notwendy, thanks for sharing your experiences.  I assume you've seen the references to "people choosing partners at a similar level of emotional maturity to themselves"?  I would say both your relationship to your husband, and my parents' relationship, illustrate that just because one family looks more functional on the outside than another, doesn't necessarily mean it is.

For years, I assumed my mother was emotionally healthier than my father.  I had a better relationship with her, after all, she seemed more respectful of me, my dad had sudden anger outbursts, he and I just didn't get along.  When I was in my 20s, I could barely talk to him for more than 5 minutes without getting into an argument.  

Now, I realize the picture is more complicated.  Codependency seems to me a sort of "false functionality".  :)eveloped out of survival necessity, of course, and more tragic in its origins than manipulative, but fake nonetheless.  The person learns to hold it together, but for instance, it's not really "kindness" if you're doing it to anticipate a parent's need (even if that parent is dead, in the case of my mom's father) to avoid them raging at you.  

And a lot of what I might think of as my mother's "maturity" is, now that I think about it, based on her powerful intellect.  "Right and wrong" more from her own detached philosophical stance, from reading books and thinking about it alone rather than from doing things and observing the outcome.  Again, not "wrong", just not what it appears to be on the surface.

Also, once when I was helping her get dressed, I did something the "wrong " way. Not sure what that was, maybe the shirt before the pants, or vice versa. That was when Momma got that "look" in her eyes, that vacant reptilian look that is so familiar to me because, I know that look when my mother dysregulates. And dear sweet "Momma" snapped at me in a very angry voice that I had not heard before from her.

My mother does not go "vacant reptilian", and I don't know if she "dysregulates" per se, but now that I read this description, I can think back on some of my interactions with her where something in her shifted.  Her voice became shrill, and she demanded I do the "right thing" in some way with respect to another person (say the polite thing the other person expects to hear, even if it was them who were reacting unreasonably or assuming I was careless or meant to harm them when that was not the case).  That just fleshes out the "she wasn't really there, with me, in those moments, she was in a different time and a different place, talking to another person [probably her dad]".  Wow.

The good part for you Eeks, is to explore this for you. If you grew up in this family, then the patterns have influenced you. How the other members of your family play a part in this is up to them to explore, but I think looking into this for you can be very helpful to you.

Yep.  It's been difficult to get to this point because I "was given so much" in terms of my physical needs and many of my wants being met.  And... .other people went through worse abuse/neglect than I did.  And... .hearing self-help catchphrases, even from health care professionals, who probably thought I "didn't look sick".  

I saw a psychoanalyst for a year and a half, and I would say that he "got it", i.e. identified the dysfunctions, but was too gentle and indirect in laying them out to me.  He never mentioned narcissistic family dynamics (I first read about those here), and it was the aforementioned good friend of mine who said to me "you know your mother was emotionally abusive?".  I think I needed those words, not so I could blame, or cling to those as permanent labels, but so I could counteract everyone else's perception of me as blessed and cared for... .and you know, maybe also so I would stop looking to my family (esp. my mother) to give me validation that they're incapable of.  

It would be interesting if anyone in your family had alcohol problems. Our ACOA group includes family dysfunction, even in the absence of alcohol, as they are similar, and have a lot of co-dependency. One of the dysfunctional family rules they discuss is ":)on't Trust. Don't Talk. Don't Feel" which you might relate to.

Yes, my dad's father, my mom's middle sister, and my maternal grandmother's father had alcohol problems.  As I began reading self-help books, I would see the word "codependency" and think "doesn't that refer only to spouses of addicts?" No, the characteristics show up in dysfunctional families without addiction, so I get it.

My first response to that phrase, "don't trust, don't talk, don't feel" was "... .huh? Nah, I don't think so."  Which from experience tells me it could lead to some potent insights

[eeks]

The common variable between these two is that her responses to me eventually reveal themselves to be based mostly if not entirely on her emotions, not my personality or needs.  I would describe her emotional management style as "sniper".  Clean, quiet, and leaves you bewildered, wondering what just happened.  And so, I never fully adopted her way of living, but at the same time, it somehow felt "wrong" to go and do what I wanted to do, so I was sort of left in limbo.

This is a very important point you make here. As hard as it often is to deal with the behavior of disordered people, what they say and do is mostly a reflection of their own emotions and distorted thinking. It is easy to take things personally especially when things seem to be in direct response to us, but indeed the responses (though sometimes perhaps triggered by us) are often more a result of a distorted perception of reality caused by distorted thinking patterns.

Yes.  This is starting to sink in more, but it's difficult to take that from understanding it, to feeling it.

How does the thought of detaching from your parents make you feel?

Well, it's interesting.  On the one hand, as I said, exciting, to think about the freedom.  And the reversion to guilt or loyalty is not as much of a reflex as it used to be.  Partly because I doubt this will be permanent, it's just something I need to do for my development right now.  But I also notice that the fantasy of what meeting their expectations would give me is still often tempting.

I should point out too that I realize that my parents' perfectionism may have at least been in part them trying to urge me to create for myself the feelings of safety that they never had (due to their unresolved trauma).  This is a false quest, as life will never be 100% safe from harm and pain.  And I'd say it's that that I'm detaching from, more so than from my parents as people. 

For some time now, I have been aware that I don't fear self-reliance, and wondered, then what is it that keeps me so stuck?  It makes me wonder if my parents (unconsciously) recruited me, scared me into staying close and making them feel safe and good, more than I realized. 

I see the possibility of one day relating to them in a more "emotionally differentiated" way, perhaps something I've never known, but that intuitively makes sense to me.

Good questions, parrot!

What thoughts go through your mind when you think about not being perfect? What other words come to mind when you think of 'not being absolutely perfect'? At the beginning of your post you say this:

"I wouldn't say I have a lot of persecutor going on, but I think what happens is I have reinterpretations of my past, from a constant cloud of shame "I was given everything I needed to have a good life, more opportunities than most in fact, and I am still a huge failure, I must have squandered it" to "I had all my physical and intellectual needs met, but there was emotional neglect/abuse"."

Are this the kinds of thoughts that go through your head when you consider 'not being perfect'?

I suppose so, since that's how I felt when I "failed" in my career.  Just this cloud of shame and panic hanging over me almost all the time.

Having big failures (and accepting them, and stopping the hamster wheel of anxiety and shame) feels dangerous.  The image that comes is of my father rushing towards me to hit me.  (never actually happened, but perhaps this is what I sought to avoid?)  So then, I can look at that scene and say ok, here's me, in my little container over here with my feelings and what's happened is I failed in my career.  And there's him over there in his container with his feelings which I imagine to be... .sheer hopelessness about life, having a lot to do with his hopelessness vis-a-vis his parents.

And I cannot resolve his life, I can only deal with my own.

 

What is that you are most afraid of? Pete Walker also talks about fear and how to manage it:

"Feel the fear in your body without reacting to it. Fear is just an energy in your body that cannot hurt you if you do not run from it or react self-destructively to it."

I thought about answers to that, but I feel myself shutting down emotionally and feeling anxious, which tells me I've processed enough for today.  I will let this rest and come back and post again when I'm ready.

[Notwendy]

Eeeks, I did read where we choose a partner based on our matching emotional maturity. I would not say that either I or my H have the severity of issues my parents had, yet we matched well enough to play out dysfunction. If there were issues, he tended to blame me. Compared to my family, his looked so normal. It took a while for me to recognize the trauma and co-dependency in that family. My FIL grew up in what I think are abusive circumstances and I think he is emotionally abusive. But the family kept him calm by WOE around him and the issues were hidden. My MIL is a self sacrificing person, at first glance a saintly woman. She really is a good person, and then- co-dependent, and passive aggressive and controlling under that sweet veneer.

Working on our martial issues was difficult, because of my H's tendency to blame me, my tendency to assume that I must be the crazy one since it was my FOO that was crazy, and his lack of interest in looking at his own FOO issues because as far as he is concerned, his family was fine growing up. However, extended family have shown- with their own co-dependency issues, that all is not so fine.

I saw my father as the normal one ,and my mother with BPD as the problem. Later on I recognized that he too was part of the equation. Not only that, he was my role model because I didn't want to be like mom. Like you, nobody in either of my or my H family did not have their basic needs met. Our families did function to provide for kids; clothing, food, education. This made it possible for the issues with my mother to remain off anyone's radar. Nobody would imagine that the kids with nice clothes, braces on their teeth, had anything going on at home. The one clue that nobody picked up was that I was an inconsistent student. If mom was raging at night, I was too upset to do homework. I day dreamed a lot as an escape. By today's measurements, someone might have thought I had ADD, but I did not. Many people assume child abuse is visible, but emotional abuse is not.

It is good that you are looking into the co-dependent and dysfunctional patterns in your family. It can be insightful.

[eeks]

I've been reading The Narcissistic Family by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert Pressman.   This book kicks butt.   It's short, but they manage to make some crucial points with few words, often by analogies or little stories to illustrate concepts to clients (the book is written for therapists).  I read some of them at first and think they are trite or patronizing.  But because it's a short book, I have read some sections 2 and 3 times, and I begin to make emotional connections.

I have brought up before the possibility of my parents being in some ways more loyal to their internalized parents than to me.  I then thought of the metaphor of "ghosts in the house" (but I did not invent that concept... .e.g. see www.danielshawlcsw.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Enter_Ghosts.pdf) that for instance when my mother says (to me as an adult) that her reason for telling me what I wanted "wasn't important" as a teenager was that she was "too busy" with work.  Really?  I am thinking, what was she really too busy with?  Her allegiance to the ghosts of her parents.  Whom she had to serve, rather than them meeting her needs.

And then I thought of how she doesn't set healthy boundaries.  I used to call her and we would talk for hours about my mental health issues (untrained therapy I guess), I was kind of needy I guess, the words "more, more" came into my head. 

Now, why would a person be "more, more"?  Because their real needs are not being met!  And then "more, more" led me to think of all the things my parents did for me... .quality clothing, healthy food, lessons, educational toys... .and I thought, was this "more, more" to cover up what they were not able to give me emotionally?

Then WHOA I thought of the dream about the dead bodies.

A few months ago I dreamt that I was recruited by a small group of people to help them hide 3 dead bodies.  We drove to some location in the dark, I didn't know where we were going, then we were in a yard at a farmhouse and there was a heavy black plastic bag that had the first body in it and it was lying there amongst a bunch of farm equipment, machinery and junk, and they had done that so that no one would notice it amongst all the other stuff.  [This is what I thought of in connection with the "more, more".]

The second body, we drove (again I didn't quite know where we were, but I knew it was near a town about 25 minutes away from where I grew up) they took it to a meat processing plant and it was cut up into large chunks.  Those chunks were packaged in heavy plastic and put in a box, that I was then carrying around with me, in a car, on a train, on a plane.  I was worried it would leak and people would see it or smell it.  I had to trust that they had packed it tightly enough.  I don't remember what happened to the 3rd body.

My former therapist said that this was my family, that I was "recruited to hide the dead bodies" which were their traumas/associated emotions.

So, underneath the "more, more" what is it that I really want?  I don't know.  I think it might be worth inquiring into that.

[eeks]

I should also mention that last night, I dreamt that surprisingly close to the city (a few blocks maybe, I am not sure if it was the city where I live or a different city) there was a rural area, all forested, and a huge 2 storey wood cabin with pillars on the front porch.  Behind the cabin there was a sudden steep drop into a valley, and I was worried I would fall, but it turns out I could fly.  I could also breathe underwater (which felt ecstatic.)  I am not sure if it was a lucid dream but I may have experienced some volition and definitely very positive sensations.

To me this means that my true self is "closer than I think", and I am both able to take a detached perspective, a "bird's eye view" (flying) and to immerse myself (breathe underwater).  I'm not sure it gets any better than that in terms of symbolism!

[Kwamina]

Hi again eeks

I think that metaphor of "ghosts in the house" is very interesting. This also makes me think of what happens when we internalize a negative, critical or demanding voice of our parents. When that happens, no matter where we go it's like our parents are present. They don't even have to be in the house, don't even have to be alive, but when the negative voices are internalized in a way our parents are forever present wherever we go.

Those dreams you describe sound very intense though. That dream about dead bodies sounds quite frightening. Your former therapist interpreted this dream as your family recruiting you to hide their traumas/associated emotions. Now that you've had time to analyze it and also gotten feedback from your therapist, I can imagine this has changed how you viewed the dream. How did you feel right after you had awoken from this surrealistic dreamworld? I can imagine that a dream like that is not only frightening but also quite confusing.

To me this means that my true self is "closer than I think", and I am both able to take a detached perspective, a "bird's eye view" (flying) and to immerse myself (breathe underwater).  I'm not sure it gets any better than that in terms of symbolism!

As Board Parrot, taking a bird's eye view is something I very much appreciate and encourage!

[eeks]

Those dreams you describe sound very intense though. That dream about dead bodies sounds quite frightening. Your former therapist interpreted this dream as your family recruiting you to hide their traumas/associated emotions. Now that you've had time to analyze it and also gotten feedback from your therapist, I can imagine this has changed how you viewed the dream. How did you feel right after you had awoken from this surrealistic dreamworld? I can imagine that a dream like that is not only frightening but also quite confusing.

Frightened and confused is a good way to describe how I felt right after... .scary, yes, but the symbolism was interesting enough for me to be curious about it.  As I think about it now, I am more inclined to think that the "dead bodies" may have something to do with my emotions as well, intertwined with family issues that I was at risk of revealing.  And the symbolic representation of defenses... .distraction (hide it amongst farm equipment and junk), dissociation (cut it up and pack it away). 

I think that metaphor of "ghosts in the house" is very interesting. This also makes me think of what happens when we internalize a negative, critical or demanding voice of our parents. When that happens, no matter where we go it's like our parents are present. They don't even have to be in the house, don't even have to be alive, but when the negative voices are internalized in a way our parents are forever present wherever we go.

What is with perfectionism?  I was reading another thread, the "exercises for self insight" one, and a member is saying she feels bad when she spills coffee, and I was like YES! I have, at times, felt incompetent because I dropped a fork!

I just read in the Fjelstad book that narcissists feel a strong emotion, don't know where it's coming from, and often blame someone else.  That seems like a likely candidate to explain what is going on here.  However, I'd like to discuss this a bit more, because I have such difficulty rejecting my parents' standards, feel such guilt when I don't meet them (even when they are not even here). 

My mother says that once (while my grandfather was still alive) he stood next to my grandmother while she was stirring soup and said "why are you stirring it back and forth, and not round and round?"  (to add to it, this is an old European man who has probably never done any cooking in his entire life)

She also said that when my dad's parents visited her parents at their house for the first time, one of them, I forget which, was telling my mom's mother how to make tea. 

And yet, if I look at how my parents were with me around "manners", I never would have been allowed to say things like this!  (you would not critique or instruct a person when you are a guest in their house.)

So it's inconsistent, impossible to meet, and hypocritical.  I absolutely see that perfectionism is a treadmill you can never get off.  I know this, but it doesn't seem to help.

Last night, a friend told me I had contradicted myself.  I'm not sure if I actually did, I think I just didn't explain something very well, but I had a shame attack that lasted for hours.  I went for a walk and thought about why.  When I was a child, and my father wanted me to do something and I said "no", sometimes he would say in an ominous voice, "I'll remember that".  (As in, the next time you want me to do something, I'll remember that you didn't do what I wanted to do last time.)  I would also sometimes be shamed for wanting someone to give me something that I was not prepared to give in return.

You can see here why any inconsistency or contradiction would be shameful for me, because I might get nailed for it.

I also find that if I am "doing well" for a few days (reduced anxiety) and one little thing happens, it can plunge me right into a backlash of shame, anxiety and self-punishment.  As though "it" (whatever "it" is) says "see, you can't win". 

During a recent conversation with my mother, I mentioned the fact that she had taught me as a child to avoid triggering my father's anger.  She said, to me, recently, as an adult, "That put you in control."  I can't even begin to pick apart that statement.  It puts him in control, because then he can use anger to manipulate me into doing what he wants!  It also makes it so that being perfect is the only strategy available to me to avoid being abused!  (so it's about like, well, you're a slave, but you're in control, you can avoid the master beating you by always doing exactly what he wants.)

An additional element for me was the assumption that people would not like me the way I was.  My mother said to me as an adult "The world crushes free spirits, I had to teach you to tone it down."  There was also, with the emphasis on manners and not being rude or offending anyone, the implication that my true self hurts other people, so I need to restrain myself all the time. 

I am still waiting for the Pete Walker book from the library.  On his website he says that clients often have to reclaim righteous aggression towards the inner critic, before they can engage in the more subtle work of listening to/integrating the inner critic. 

He also says "you're in an adult body now", and that never seems to help me feel any different, and I just realized maybe that is because what I experienced was verbal and emotional, more like "You must behave this way or else people will immediately end their relationships with you"  and anger is definitely classed as an immediate-relationship-ending emotion.

I might appear to feel anger... .as I have written recently I am an expert complainer... .but underneath it all the tone is "This is true, isn't it?  This happened, didn't it?"  Wanting validation and not feeling I am right or justified unless I receive it.  It's not a life- or self-affirming anger that is based on known and enforced boundaries.

[eeks]

A few further reflections.

Perfectionism in my family, with respect to my mom's father imposing it on her (and my dad imposing it on me), is not because the women having their own desires is bad in and of itself, but if they do, they might choose to follow those desires, separate and thus not be there to serve the man whenever he wants.

With respect to my mother imposing it on me... .she doesn't react or overtly manipulate the way we might imagine a more severely disordered person doing, but she tends to scare me with the potential negative consequences of whatever I want to do.  I suspect this has at least partly due to her unconsciously not wanting me to individuate, to separate from her, wanting to keep me close to her, to "protect her from the world".  She might say it's about protecting me, but she has alluded to wanting me there to protect her, at times.  So for her, it may be because she doesn't want to face her fears, face her own life, her desires.  (Hmm, could be same for the men, showing up in a slightly different way.)

And I am "contacting" those forbidden desires, feelings, traits in me in a slightly different way yesterday and today, I noticed that the fear is not of those attributes per se but of the reactions I will get from other people if I express them.

I guess I could think about, instead of blaming myself, trying to find any authentic anger about how good at subtle manipulation my mother was (again, not necessarily conscious, I wonder if her defensiveness is sometimes because she could not be anything less than perfect for her own parents, and the things I say mean she wasn't a perfect parent).  And (compassionately) leave her (symbolically) to her own life. 

[Kwamina]

So it's inconsistent, impossible to meet, and hypocritical.  I absolutely see that perfectionism is a treadmill you can never get off.  I know this, but it doesn't seem to help.

Perhaps it can help to do a cost-benefit-analysis. What are the costs of holding on to perfectionist beliefs and what are the benefits? Especially when we are finding it hard to let go of certain ways of thinking, it could very well be that in spite of all the obvious costs of going on this way, there are also some benefits. Perhaps the 'safety' of not having to change and/or not having to deal with the uncertainty of what might lie ahead.

I also find that if I am "doing well" for a few days (reduced anxiety) and one little thing happens, it can plunge me right into a backlash of shame, anxiety and self-punishment.  As though "it" (whatever "it" is) says "see, you can't win".  

Pete Walker talks about how the inner critic can lie in wait to seize any opportunity to make you feel bad about yourself. Every negative event, no matter how little, is an opportunity for the inner critic to start attacking you. Especially when you are emotionally triggered, is when you are more vulnerable for inner critic attacks. I think this might explain why these little things trigger so much shame, anxiety and self-punishment.

He also says "you're in an adult body now", and that never seems to help me feel any different, and I just realized maybe that is because what I experienced was verbal and emotional, more like "You must behave this way or else people will immediately end their relationships with you"  and anger is definitely classed as an immediate-relationship-ending emotion.

Pete Walker also says that 'Feeling small and little is a sure sign of a flashback'. He is not just talking about the physical experience, but more about the emotional experience of feeling small and little. I think his point is that though we are feeling like a child on an emotional level when we are having a flashback, we actually are adults now. Taking a look at our adult bodies can help us return to the present and snap out of the emotional flashback. Can you relate to the experience of feeling emotionally small and little, even now that you are an adult?

And I am "contacting" those forbidden desires, feelings, traits in me in a slightly different way yesterday and today, I noticed that the fear is not of those attributes per se but of the reactions I will get from other people if I express them.

This is very interesting! So you not expressing those attributes is basically very similar to the concept of 'walking on egg-shells'. You are not expressing those authentic aspects of yourself out of fear for how others might react to them. This relates to the point you raised earlier about your mother saying that by not triggering your father's anger would put you in control. You rightly point out that this however would actually put him in control. The same type of dynamic is going on here, you are indirectly letting others control your expression out of fear of how they might react to you.

[eeks]

So it's inconsistent, impossible to meet, and hypocritical.  I absolutely see that perfectionism is a treadmill you can never get off.  I know this, but it doesn't seem to help.

Perhaps it can help to do a cost-benefit-analysis. What are the costs of holding on to perfectionist beliefs and what are the benefits? Especially when we are finding it hard to let go of certain ways of thinking, it could very well be that in spite of all the obvious costs of going on this way, there are also some benefits. Perhaps the 'safety' of not having to change and/or not having to deal with the uncertainty of what might lie ahead.

Funnily enough, I just did this yesterday. 

What I came up with is,

Benefits of sticking to perfectionism:  the promise of a really good feeling somewhere in the future, when I finally "earn" the privilege of emotional intimacy with others.  The belief that once I am finally perfect (or at least achieve some standard of success), I will be protected from abuse and criticism because nobody will have anything substantive to criticize me on.  I also notice that without perfectionism I am very loving; I am afraid if I express that to people they will mock me or shout at me.

Costs:  draining me mentally (I do not solve problems as well when I am anxious), physically (less energy, sleep issues), and emotionally.   

Benefits of dropping perfectionism:  I will have a lot more energy to do the things I want to do, and the freedom to decide on my own standards that I will hold myself to.  I will be able to experience things in the moment more.

Costs:  Giving up on that fantasy that finally being perfect will give me the relationship with my parents that I wanted (even if it is only symbolic, and only with the internalized parents in my head).  Through perfectionism, I have been trying to achieve some degree of safety or predictability in relationships, and I feel somewhat uneasy about losing that. 

He also says "you're in an adult body now", and that never seems to help me feel any different, and I just realized maybe that is because what I experienced was verbal and emotional, more like "You must behave this way or else people will immediately end their relationships with you"  and anger is definitely classed as an immediate-relationship-ending emotion.

Pete Walker also says that 'Feeling small and little is a sure sign of a flashback'. He is not just talking about the physical experience, but more about the emotional experience of feeling small and little. I think his point is that though we are feeling like a child on an emotional level when we are having a flashback, we actually are adults now. Taking a look at our adult bodies can help us return to the present and snap out of the emotional flashback. Can you relate to the experience of feeling emotionally small and little, even now that you are an adult?

I can, that I have noticed happening, and how it shows up is often "I depend on you (parent).  If you don't care for me, who will?"  I also, just reviewing it when thinking about your response, had a flash of a thought of how it must have felt to be a child and have shockwaves of my father's angry shouting going through my body. 

I just read in Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist that people with BPD or NPD have strong emotions, don't know what they are about, and tend to then blame someone else.  I don't think my father has NPD, but he has the rage trait (using anger to manipulate others, not to set healthy boundaries)

I wonder if I could take that so far as to say that the disordered parent expects their spouse and children to parent them, in the sense that they expect these others to help them regulate their emotions?

And I am "contacting" those forbidden desires, feelings, traits in me in a slightly different way yesterday and today, I noticed that the fear is not of those attributes per se but of the reactions I will get from other people if I express them.

This is very interesting! So you not expressing those attributes is basically very similar to the concept of 'walking on egg-shells'. You are not expressing those authentic aspects of yourself out of fear for how others might react to them. This relates to the point you raised earlier about your mother saying that by not triggering your father's anger would put you in control. You rightly point out that this however would actually put him in control. The same type of dynamic is going on here, you are indirectly letting others control your expression out of fear of how they might react to you.

That sounds accurate.  The problem, of course, is that i don't know if they're going to react the same way.   

My parents didn't threaten to abandon me, but my mother did sometimes say that if I didn't do some particular thing (usually related to manners), that society would reject me, that people would get mad or immediately withdraw their caring until I behaved right.  And yet, the converse wasn't true, if someone behaved badly towards me, I had to understand where they were coming from, and still be polite no matter what they were doing ("take the high road".

So there is the implication here that if someone gets angry at me or hurts my feelings, I have control over it by how I respond.  Which is not quite holding me responsible for their behaviour, but kind of, implying that if I get hurt and continue to get hurt (because my responses don't stop the person), it's my fault.  I think this may be the biggest issue I have. 

[Turkish]

So there is the implication here that if someone gets angry at me or hurts my feelings, I have control over it by how I respond.  Which is not quite holding me responsible for their behaviour, but kind of, implying that if I get hurt and continue to get hurt (because my responses don't stop the person), it's my fault.  I think this may be the biggest issue I have. 

And I thought I was the only one who had an issue with,."no one else is responsible for your feelings." 

Maybe you're struggling more here with boundaries and how to disengage from dysfunction?

[eeks]

And I thought I was the only one who had an issue with,."no one else is responsible for your feelings." 

Maybe you're struggling more here with boundaries and how to disengage from dysfunction?

Quite possible.  I was just thinking to myself, I'm aware I have the option of ending unhealthy interactions/relationships, and I do use it, but there's something about how others' words/actions really 'sink in' regardless. 

As in, "what it means about me and my worth that they are not treating me with kindness".  That question, if I was really worthy, wouldn't they see that and act accordingly?

Again, rationally, I understand that others have their own traumas, defenses, life experiences that filter how they see me.  Likewise with me and how I see others.  And there's always variations on the phrase "how people treat you says more about them than it does about you"... .but I don't feel it.

[Turkish]

eeks,

We talk on almost every board about validation of others, but as kids from dysfunctional families, I've found that we can have trouble validating ourselves. Does this ring familiar?

Do you have trouble accepting compliments, like when someone says something good about you?

,

[eeks]

eeks,

We talk on almost every board about validation of others, but as kids from dysfunctional families, I've found that we can have trouble validating ourselves. Does this ring familiar?

It does, and it reminds me of when I did group therapy 2 years ago, and the psychiatrist who ran the program said I am very good at knowing what others are feeling, but not what I am feeling.  He said I needed to "find words for my feelings", and I thought at the time that sounded pretty silly, come on, I have words for my feelings!  I have a great vocabulary, I have words for everything!  I realized that isn't what he meant though, it was more about emotional self-awareness and the "translation" of sensations and emotions into words and communication.

It seems to me there is a connection with boundaries here.  I was lying in bed before falling asleep the night before last, thinking about this "disengage from dysfunction" thing that you said.  I was a lawyer.  I am currently unemployed.  I have had strangers at parties ask me how I am supporting myself financially.  Which boggles me, because I wouldn't ask them if they got a raise last year or how much they made?  

And then I was thinking about the thread about converting values to boundaries to actions.  I used to think this concept was too simplistic too, like "situations in life are more varied than this, how can I decide ahead of time what I will do?"

So I started thinking about, what are my values around money.  I value frugality as well as reducing waste (e.g. buying quality products and using them till they wear out), and in terms of how I make money, I will not accept bullying, harassment or emotional abuse as a condition of keeping my job.  This is something I value for others as well, nobody should have to take emotionally or physically unsafe workplaces just so they can have the necessities of life.  

... .and I had a thought, "... .you mean, I get to develop my own beliefs about things like money, even if they are 'societal' and seem dictated for me, regardless of what everyone else thinks?"  (cue the sunbeams and trumpets)

So I have moments like that.  But I struggle with guilt and shame for "not being who I'm supposed to be" still, and I wonder if an intermediary might be to go back in my mind to those times as a child and find what my authentic response was (before one or both of my parents intervened).  I think sometimes it's "no".  Not an aggressive "no", just "nope, not doing it."

I think because of the emphasis on compliance in my family, I don't feel comfortable just saying "no" without an explanation.  I believe I learned that if I wanted to be freed of an obligation, I had to convince my parents that what I wanted to do was actually within the rules, or why the rules should be changed.  

Do you have trouble accepting compliments, like when someone says something good about you?

Sometimes.  I used to think I didn't but then I said to myself one day "what if I am just saying 'thank you' by rote... .am I really absorbing the compliment?"  Also, sometimes if my performance is praised, I am worried I won't be able to keep it up.  

I also tend not to trust men who just like me for who I am, I am more compelled by men who I don't feel good enough for, or who criticize me (somehow it's like "if I could convince this person that they're wrong, as in 'oh, I made an oversight, it turns out you actually are good enough for me!' it would feel so good... .)

[Notwendy]

What I came up with is,

Benefits of sticking to perfectionism:  the promise of a really good feeling somewhere in the future, when I finally "earn" the privilege of emotional intimacy with others.  The belief that once I am finally perfect (or at least achieve some standard of success), I will be protected from abuse and criticism because nobody will have anything substantive to criticize me on.  I also notice that without perfectionism I am very loving; I am afraid if I express that to people they will mock me or shout at me.

Costs:  draining me mentally (I do not solve problems as well when I am anxious), physically (less energy, sleep issues), and emotionally.  

Benefits of dropping perfectionism:  I will have a lot more energy to do the things I want to do, and the freedom to decide on my own standards that I will hold myself to.  I will be able to experience things in the moment more. I have really tried to model giving one's personal best in the context of unconditional love for my family, and also myself.

Costs:  Giving up on that fantasy that finally being perfect will give me the relationship with my parents that I wanted (even if it is only symbolic, and only with the internalized parents in my head).  Through perfectionism, I have been trying to achieve some degree of safety or predictability in relationships, and I feel somewhat uneasy about losing that.  


Wow, not only is your family similar to my H's, you share this trait with him, and possibly for similar reasons.

I also have these tendencies but not to this point. I do my best. I am a high achiever and work at doing a really good job. However, I am not a perfectionist, and I accept that I am a human that can only do the best I can, but not always perfect.

My H really embraces perfectionism, but there is a cost to it. The cost is that, well nobody is perfect, but by rejecting that side of him, he also rejects it in others. He is hard on himself and so is hard on others too. It is also offputting as it gives others the impression that he is superior to them, even though he may not think so. It really does seem to create a barrier between him and us- which I know bothers him.

I don't think it is easy to see the difference between perfectionism and doing ones best. I think that someone capable of doing a great job should give it their all, but then, I also think that perfectionism takes on a different function than the pride of a job well done.

[eeks]

My H really embraces perfectionism, but there is a cost to it. The cost is that, well nobody is perfect, but by rejecting that side of him, he also rejects it in others. He is hard on himself and so is hard on others too. It is also offputting as it gives others the impression that he is superior to them, even though he may not think so. It really does seem to create a barrier between him and us- which I know bothers him.

Makes sense.  Even though the perfectionist may often hold themselves to a higher standard than others, those standards will inevitably spill over.  The lack of acceptance by the family, means the person does not accept their own flaws and mistakes, and that makes it genuinely hard to accept others'.  I see that in myself at times.  I feel inadequate at my core, not good enough to be loved.  And that means there's a certain degree of emotional intimacy past which I just don't "let anyone in"... .I can experience some emotional intimacy and don't consider myself completely "unavailable" but there seems to be an upper threshold past which I experience a shutdown that is emotional and perhaps even physical (tension, anxiety). 

I don't think it is easy to see the difference between perfectionism and doing ones best. I think that someone capable of doing a great job should give it their all, but then, I also think that perfectionism takes on a different function than the pride of a job well done.

Definitely.  Perfectionism is outer-motivated (seeking others' approval or that of the inner critic/punitive parent) and pride in a job well done is intrinsically motivated (based on one's values).

So I have a question.  What does it accomplish for a parent, to hold the attitude and state (implicitly or explicitly) with grandiosity and finality on a regular basis that the child is not good enough?

[eeks]

I go to conscious dance parties/movement meditations, and I am torn sometimes because it seems like such a rich opportunity for personal introspection, and yet for a long time I would find myself shutting down in a "backlash" of anxiety just as my energy increased to a certain point of expressivity/"bigness".  Discomfort can lead to learning opportunities, but it has to be manageable discomfort.

I would feel distanced from the people around me, like I was in a bubble, and overwhelmed by all the energy of the music, their movements, etc.  I could sit at the side and observe that there was nothing dangerous happening, everyone is just doing their own thing and they're not going to judge me (and even if they are, it's silent anyway so they can't say anything, heh!) but that had no impact on my anxiety.  It was these experiences that first led me to wonder if I might have cPTSD.

So, I went to one this week, and I did not have the release or resolution I always hope for, but one of the themes that came up was hostility.  I had just read in the Pete Walker book (it came in from the library) that sometimes his clients would subliminally recreate on their face a look of contempt, like that a parent gave them, when they were having a flashback.  (An aside, I thought "is THAT the reason I have been accused of giving someone a dirty look when I wasn't?  when in fact, whether I told them this or not, I was feeling really insecure at that moment?"

I had observed a few months ago with a friend, an acquaintance (who seems pretty self-aware emotionally) and my former therapist, that there is a threshold of emotional intimacy that I reach and reflexively I want to shout "get out!" Which seems weird to me because I want more closeness in my life.  So I contemplated and puzzled over this.

I assume I am hiding or protecting something with this reaction, and I am still not sure what, but it feels like I made further experiential observations tonight.  It makes sense to me, emotions that are held back don't just "go away", my mother's parents could not eradicate her autonomy completely, they trained her to be polite and giving but towards me in certain manners-related situations (as I've described) she has been authoritarian.  And so, anger not allowed to be expressed has to go somewhere.

[Turkish]

Do you see it as something like a push-pull dynamic, the desire to connect, yet your gut emotional reaction reaches your face?

[Notwendy]

So I have a question.  What does it accomplish for a parent, to hold the attitude and state (implicitly or explicitly) with grandiosity and finality on a regular basis that the child is not good enough?


I don't think it is something a parent does with full consciousness, but something that is passed on. I think if a parent has poor boundaries- and that is the case for people with PD's, they see the child as an extension of themselves. When the child does something that brings external praise- such as winning in sports, the parent feels this reflects on him/her. If the child makes a mistake, then the parent also feels that they are a mistake. If the parent feels he/she can never be good enough, I think this reflects in how they relate to their child. I think also, if they were raised this way, then they may not even know a different way to do this. I don't think these parents are all bad parents. They can be loving caring parents, but still have this attitude.

[Notwendy]

I had observed a few months ago with a friend, an acquaintance (who seems pretty self-aware emotionally) and my former therapist, that there is a threshold of emotional intimacy that I reach and reflexively I want to shout "get out!" Which seems weird to me because I want more closeness in my life.  So I contemplated and puzzled over this.

I can relate to this with my H. I pushed for closeness, but his response is to withdraw from it or fight it. Yet, if I back off, he doesn't like it. I believe he really wants it- and I think he likes my pushing for it as it isn't his nature to do so. On the other side of this- me- is that it is emotionally tiring to do this and not really feel as if it is effective in the long run. Eventually, I just stop pushing, and we then drift apart. For us to stay connected, I usually have to reach out to him, as it could go on indefinitely, even if he doesn't like it. Emotional distance is both the comfort zone but lonely.

I can also relate to the anxiety. If I push for closeness, I can feel him getting anxious. If I start a conversation that is personal, he responds by trying to deflect it and I can feel his agitation over it. So, I tend to avoid doing them, and yet, he doesn't like it. His pushing me away is effective- it works for him, but he also doesn't like it when I respect his wish for space.