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steve195915
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« on: November 17, 2015, 02:39:47 PM »

I do wonder if my BPD is cheating or maybe its just keeping her options open since she has a fear of me abandoning her.  Is it a typical for BPDs to cheat?  I don't like this feeling of being an option and wonder how others deal with it. 
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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2015, 03:55:10 PM »

Oh, its extremely typical.  I think of it happening with BPDs for two reasons: 1) the abandonment issue - they are very sensitive. so if you do one small thing or give them a look or say something they take the wrong way, for example, it can be very provoking and insulting to the BPD. they can paint you to black over the smallest things. So, they then look for an escape, savior, for attention to bolster their poor self esteem or for someone to use to triangulate. 2) BPDs are very empty inside and always need to be stimulated. They, similar to narcissists, love attention and validation from others.

My ex emotionally cheated on me and actually went out and physically went on a date with someone the very day we broke up this time around.  I don't want to be an option either and have never dealt with it well, as I am a loyal and faithful person with steadfast and consistent feelings and emotions. My ex's mom is BPD and has actually been married 4 times... .4 kids from 3 different dads. She has never been faithful to any of her husbands or boyfriends and the marriages and relationships all end as a result of my ex's mother's cheating. So that basically sums it up and her mom is probably the worst case of borderline I have ever seen.
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steve195915
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2015, 06:30:57 PM »

So why do people stay with the BPD where you know they may blow up with anger at any time, are verbally abusive to you, they keep other options open, they find it impossible to commit to you for fear you may abandon them and then they'd be alone, and then they accuse you of being unfaithful when you are completely loyal and committed to the relationship, and all the other issues too. I know my life would be much simpler if I could let her go but I find it impossible.  I tell myself I love her and am conmitted to make it better but I don't see her changing, only my response to her actions is what I can change.  That is very taxing to my emotional health but I'm still here. 
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JQ
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2015, 07:42:14 PM »

Hi Steve,

This is your 3rd post so I would like to welcome you to the group. I'm glad you found this place ... .it's a place where others like you come to help with finding a path to walk ... .possible reasons why they do the things they do. Come here to vent ... .see what worked for us and what didn't work for us. You need to dive head first into this world of BPD and really try to understand what you're dealing with. Be sure to research the references to the right side of the page and the articles and references at the top of the page. I would encourage you to find books at your local library like, "I hate you ... .don't leave me", "The Human Magnet Syndrome", "Stop Walking on Eggshells" just to name a couple of books. I would also encourage you to seek out professional therapy to help you sort out your thoughts, feelings, and maybe learn a little about yourself in the process.

You are probably like a lot of us ... .who are a codependent or a NON ... .I myself am a recovering NON. We are perfectionist, the Knight in Armor protecting those who "can't" protect themselves, or the cowboy wearing the white hat riding in to save the day. YOU need to know that BPD is a serious mental / behavioral illness and was caused long before you showed up. There are 3 C's of BPD ... .YOU didn't Cause it! YOU can't Control it! YOU can't Cure it!   If you stay in the relationship you'll learn that the BPD needs to accept that they have a serious illness that will need a lot of therapy for years ... .perhaps for the rest of their life but they need to volunteer to go not unlike an alcoholic needs to volunteer to go AA.  If you stay, you'll need a lifetime of therapy to help you sort out your feelings, fears, thoughts, emotions as well.  Just so you know, my exBPDgf has been in an out of therapy for 25 plus years with multiple therapist. Sometime the therapist ended it because it was beyond their ability to either help them further & recommended another therapist or she ended it because she felt abandon and wanted to find another therapist. I've learned that she created crises & drama in her life and I attempted to "fix" things ... .I've since learned a very valuable lesson ... ."her flying monkey's are her flying monkey's and sometimes she leaves the cage door open and they circle above like vultures waiting ... .".

Nothing will ever make sense in the world of BPD ... .they have the emotional behavior of a 3 year old toddler and if you've ever been around & spent time with a toddler you know that nothing they say makes sense or is logical. BPD actions & behavior will NEVER ... .NEVER make sense ... .even high functioning ones. My exBPDgf makes six figures a year and has no money or anything to show for her efforts, don't ask, i have no idea where the money went. She has a Bachelors from an Ivy league school along with 2 Masters ... .but her behavior continues to be very similar to a 3 yr old toddler. With a lifetime of therapy, there is evidence that they might be able to have somewhat of a semi normal life ... .ehhh.

You'll learn a new language in the world of BPD ... .abandonment, engulfment, deregulation, painted white, painted black, raging, gas lighting, projection, and triangulation just to mention a handful. Which brings me to your question ... .triangulation or extra partners or cheating ... .call it what you want it happens and seems to be fairly common among those with BPD ... .but IT'S NOT A BLANKET STATEMENT.  Just as there are no two people who act or react the same ... .it's the same with those with BPD. What seems to be common behavior among a lot of them will NOT include all of them. People are people and no two regardless of the personal issues will never act or react the same. so what happens to 65% of us might not happen to you ... .what works for 75% of us might not work for you.

You'll need to look inward, do a lot of self discovery, self reflection, to learn the way you are, the way you behave or act or react to different situations. You said, "I know my life would be much simpler if I could let her go but I find it impossible."   this is the reason why you have to look inward, learn about yourself ... .in order to help you move forward ... .and moving forward might not mean to move forward with her. Once you start to learn about yourself it can help you in other relationships as well ... .like r/s with mother, father, sisters, brothers, co-workers and friends ... .we all can afford to learn more about ourselves and improve even the basic relationships we have.

You have a lot of homework to do Steve ... .you won't find any answers over night ... .this journey of self discovery won't take a day or two or a weekend. We can't walk the journey for you but we can be there to help you along the way ... .when you take a step backwards, when you stumble, we'll hold out a hand to help you up ... .we'll dust you off ... .but it will be up to you to continue the path your walking ... .take the next fork on the road ... .or stay exactly where you are ... .you are responsible for your life and the journey you take. Embrace it and enjoy it ... .how many people in life actually just trudge along blind & clueless to things especially about themselves. You have an incredible opportunity to learn so many things about yourself ... .

Come back here as often as you need too ... .as often as you WANT to ... .someone will always be here to listen to you vent, give counsel & guidance ... .read the references here on the sight ... .the books mentioned among others ... .and seek out professional guidance/therapy to help you sort out your thoughts & feelings. Keep posting too ... .it's therapeutic to put your thoughts down on paper ... .it' like keeping a journal with some feedback 

JQ
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steve195915
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2015, 08:42:03 PM »

Thanks JQ.  You said alot thats very true in my relationship with my BPD gf.  Yes I'm the perfectionist and want to "save" the ones that can't help themselves. 

I say to myself so many times her thoughts or actions are completely illogical and don't make any sense.  She acts emotionally as a toddler.  I have read books, researched BPD, and have done a lot of self-reflection on why do I go on with this relationship that is so unhealthy for me.  One thing that keeps me in it is when she shows her love and we have sex, its the most amazing feeling I've ever experienced.  The emotions and passion are so unbelievable I can't see it being that way with anyone else.  I'm 56, been married for 15 yrs, have had several other healthy relationships but experienced nothing even close to the emotions and passion I have with my BPDgf.  That reason and also I don't want to be just another person that abandons her is what keeps me in it.  Can you explain what triangulation is?  My BPDgf lives with her ex husband (married/divorced twice).  She pays him rent and is adamant that nothing inappropriate goes on between them.  She refuses to move in with me because she fears if she did and I ended up dumping her she may have no place to go.  It's like she has to keep other options open.  I was thinking to tell her its time to make a commitment and she should move in with me but that would probably trigger her anger.  I'm still deciding how to handle her living situation as I'm tired of her living with her ex.  I also worry if she did move in she may require us being married but then I think if thats what I really want as I think she may pursue other options.  I don't think she'll cheat but she may make friends with other guys because of her fears of abandonment.  A lot of things to think about.  Its nice to know I'm not alone.
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JQ
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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2015, 01:27:18 AM »

Steve,

Let me do this in two parts ... .what the definition of triangulation in one post per your request and my response to your post in another ... .lets start with my response first.

Steve, I like you am ... .was a perfectionist ... .in reality I am a recovering perfectionist and like you I was the knight or cowboy as well. I had a lot of professional assistance, some looking inward at myself and trying to figure out why I was the way I was. In short, my behavior is rooted in childhood as is most of us ... .alcoholic absent father when he was around was physically abusive with beatings. Mother was a BPD ... .being the oldest of 5 i tried to receive some sort of approval from my parents that never came. No matter what i did or how well I did I was never told good job or if they were proud of me ... .example, I brought home a report card in junior high ... .A & B's ... .I was told ... ."yeah but it's not all A's." So I inadvertently became a perfectionist in part to try & get some sort of approval of the work / sport / grades I did that never came. It along with other behavioral things like saving my sisters & brothers from an abusive father ... .a mother who would pit each of us against each other for sport ... .I became the knight to protect them or the cowboy riding in to save them from our crazy mother nearly every week for some crazy crap she was pulling. So ... .if you look into your past ... .what would you find ... .just a thought ... .no need to explain it here.

You said, "One thing that keeps me in it is when she shows her love and we have sex, its the most amazing feeling I've ever experienced.  The emotions and passion are so unbelievable I can't see it being that way with anyone else."  I would almost promise you that if a poll was taken that male & or female here in the group would say the same thing ... .some describe it as porn sex ... .some described it as earth shattering ... .and still some said the earth moved ... .that seems to be one of a few common things that BPD's seem to do well ... .I've learned that it's called mirroring ... .they have this unique ability to give you or mirror what you need ... .it to is a learned behavior. It's a learned survival skill. Example ... .so exBPDgf was sexually / physically / emotionally / abused from her older brother from the age of 4-5 to 13-14 nearly every day. He would physically assault her if she didn't do what he wanted or resisted in some way ... .well if a child learns if she or he does something that will avoid them getting hit, beat, kicked ... .it becomes a learned behavior ... .and some become very good at it. So they learn to mirror what they're partner wants ... .or lets them have their way to avoid physical being abused or in someway they see it as being accepted ... .loved ... .because one parent is most likely absent and the other is emotionally unavailable ... .so they see this as some sort of being accepted / loved / wanted by someone ... .everyone wants to be loved ... .even more so for a child.  This is just one example in a very abbreviated way ... .there are other examples. It's a learned behavior for a means of survival.  Once you are separated from the BPD for a period of time ... .things might become a little clearer through the fog. My first exBPDgf from my early 20's was so very much like the second one ... .crazy porn sex ... .passion ... .unlike any other ... .but at the time I thought she was batch!t crazy and it turns out she was ... .I didn't know what it was until the 2nd exBPDgf some 25 years later when I learned of BPD ... .I had forgot the warning signs from the first one. I'm north of 50 and you would of thought I would of known better ... .  "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it".

You said, " She refuses to move in with me because she fears if she did and I ended up dumping her she may have no place to go".  This is a classic BPD behavior of a extreme of "ENGULFMENT"  ... .because of the trauma they experienced early in life, they so desperately need & want that real love they were denied growing up. You show them that you're not like other men ... .or in some cases other women ... .that you love them for them ... .that you actually care for them ... .that you're not going to abandon them like all the others have ... .I said the exact same thing to exBPDgf #2.  But because of their "learned behavior" they will push you away if they feel they are loosing control and you are trying to engulf them ... .take over their day to day life.  So you tend to walk away ... .distant yourself ... .you stop calling, texting, IM or emailing them. This then throws them in the extreme fear of abandonment ... .real or perceived ... .their learned behavior that they're being abandon like when they were a child and their parent wasn't around to love them ... .so they pull you back in with amazing sex, conversation, sexting, IM, emails, phone sex ... .you, me, others slowly lower our guard ... .we remember how good the sex / intimacy was and want more of it so we allow our selves back into the spiders lair ... .we start to engulf them again by sharing our feelings of love, our wants, desires and the engulfment fear kicks in again ... .and they push you away.  In your case, when she feels engulfment she spends more time with her ex ... .when she feels she's loosing you she pulls you back in with all those wonderful feelings you enjoy ... .it's textbook BPD push/pull behavior. So you get frustrated with her current living arrangements and put out a challenge to her or an ultimatum me or your ex ... .she pushes you away & she maintains control of the relationship ... .so to get back that "high" of the intimacy you relinquish your demands aka control and she slowly comes back and you meet up & get your fix of intimacy ... .she maintains control ... .until you put demands on her living arrangements again and she pushes you away in order to regain a since of control.  I'm pretty sure it's happened to all of us ... .you're not alone. 

She like others with BPD don't know how to handle/deal with a whole array of feelings since they're emotionally behavioral stunted toddlers. They don't know how to express their feelings or behavior. They get confused, they have memory relapses, they feel lost without direction. Evidence would suggest that DPT therapy seems to be a good type of the therapy for them ... .but evidence shows they need to go to therapy nearly once on a weekly basis in order to learn how to regulate behavioral impulses and to try & live a semi normal life if that is possible at all. NOTHING WILL EVER MAKE SENSE OF A BPD BEHAVIOR ... .IT WILL NEVER SEEM TO LOGICAL BEHAVIOR ... .this has nothing to do with you ... .again BPD IS A SERIOUS BEHAVIOR / MENTAL ILLNESS.   

You have more homework to do ... .you have to really decide some things that won't be easy to. Can you see being with this person 6 months from now much less 6 years from now? Can you accept that even with therapy on a weekly basis for both of you there will be events that might happen ... .there might be things that are said.  Perhaps some professional assistance might help with your "perfectionist / save all the puppies in the pound" thinking ... .it's one thing I've learned from a career in the military ... .you can't save every puppy in the pound ... .you have to take care of yourself mentally & physically ... .you are NOT responsible for her well being or her behavior.  You are the only one that can look yourself in the mirror everyday and decide if this is a life you want ... .maybe improve it ... .maybe stay the same ... .or do you wish her well and continue to walk your path without her ... .only you can decide ... .do you take the Blue pill Neo and wake up in your bed in the morning in your normal day to day life to date others and see what life holds for you ... .or do you take the red pill and see how far the rabbit hole goes?

JQ
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JQ
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« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2015, 02:29:13 AM »

Steve ... .now for the definition of Triangulation ... .

This definition I pulled from "Out of the FOG" website 

Definition:

Triangulation - Gaining an advantage over perceived rivals by manipulating them into conflicts with each other.

Description:

Some people who suffer from personality disorders, particularly the Cluster B disorders Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder have a tendency to view or judge themselves in terms of how they see themselves in competition with others.

This competitive or "win-lose" attitude occasionally turns malevolent and will lead the person who suffers from the personality disorder to seek ways to sabotage, manipulate or otherwise undermine the position of others whom they see as a potential threat.

One of the ways they can do this  is to attempt to steer those they regard as a threat into a confrontation with others. This is a passive-aggressive “Divide and Conquer” approach, as it makes use of a proxy rather than generating a direct conflict with their target.

When it works, the Personality Disordered individual gets a feeling of control, superiority or gratification from gaining control over or lowering the social status of a ‘rival’. This also has the effect of making that person more vulnerable to being more directly controlled by the perpetrator.

Examples of Divide and Conquer:

A woman lies to a friend claiming that another friend doesn't like her.

A parent shows favoritism to one child, creating a rivalry with the others.

A woman flirts with a co-worker in front of her boyfriend.

A boss tells a subordinate that the others don't respect him.

What it feels like:

When you experience Triangulation you may fear what other people might think of you. You may feel humiliated, concerned and self-protective.

You might feel the urge to “clear your name” or “set the record straight”. You might want to confront the people involved or even retaliate. However by doing that, you take the bait. It is sometimes the perpetrator’s hope that you will lose control and act out in anger or fear.

Learning to Cope:

When dealing with a Divide and Conquer attack it's important to remember that only you have control over what you do, not the person who is provoking or baiting you.

As the adage says: "Nobody can make you feel bad about yourself without your permission."

What NOT to do:

Don't believe everything you are told by a person who suffers from a personality disorder. They may just be telling you something false as a means to an end.

Don't react quickly to surprising news. You have the prerogative to think for as long as you want and to react how and when you want.

Don't lose your temper or lose control of your emotions. You can't control other people but you always have control over your own words and actions and that is where you have the most power.

Don't sit still and allow someone to rain down on you insults or criticism in the name of another person. If the room is a painful place to sit, then it is perhaps a good time to go sit in a different room.

Don't make promises, commitments or contracts that will hurt your relationship with people whom you trust, you love, people whose company you enjoy, old friends, and trusted relatives. No-one who truly loves you will want to take healthy, supportive, positive relationships away from you.

What TO do:

Objectively verify anything you are told before acting on it.

Keep in touch with those you love and trust and tell them about any problems or issues you are hiving.

Maintain a healthy balance between family, friends, work and play. You need them all in the right measure to keep a healthy balance.

Politely refuse to engage in Divide and Conquer without starting a fight about it. Remove yourself from a conversation if it is an unhealthy or dysfunctional one.

Maintain your self-control. This is how you keep your power and demonstrate that you are not going to be manipulated like that.



************************

Skip posted this so credit goes to them ... .

Triangulation is an often misunderstood term on this site.  Triangulation as coined by Murray Bowen MD is the “process whereby a two-party relationship that is experiencing tension will naturally involve a third party to reduce tension” (Bobes & Rothman, 2002).

Simply put, when a two-person relationship becomes unstable the individuals will tolerate only a small amount of tension before they involve a third person. The resulting triangle can hold much more tension because the tension can shift around the three relationships.

Bowen's observations are incredible.  We all do this.  Triangles often help us cope.

Sometimes, however, triangulation can cause more turmoil in the relationship, causing further communication difficulties and conflict. According to Bowen''s Theory, a triangle creates an ‘odd man out,’ which is a very difficult position for individuals to tolerate. Anxiety generated by anticipating or being the odd one out is a huge force in triangles.

In calm periods, two people become comfortably close "insiders" and the third person is an uncomfortable "outsider." If tensions increase, insiders more actively exclude the outsider and/or the outsider may work to get closer to one of the insiders. If the tension is too much for one triangle to contain, it spreads to a series of "interlocking" triangles.

A classic example of triangulation is a mother telling her son that his father is treating her badly, rather than facing her husband directly and resolving the conflict. And while this may initially solve the mothers anxiety, the triangulation may create issues in the relationship between the son and the father where the mother takes sides - in effect, there are now two conflicts being triangulated among the parties.

According to Bowen, these three part relationships (triangles) have at least four possible outcomes which are as follows - 2 are good and 2 are bad:

(1) A stable pair can become destabilized by a third person;

(2) a stable pair can also be destabilized by the removal of the third person (an example would be a child leaving home and no longer available for triangulation);

(3) an unstable pair can be stabilized by the addition of a third person (an example would be a conflictual marriage becoming more harmonious after the birth of a child; and

(4) an unstable pair being stabilized by the removal of a third person (an example would be conflict is reduced by the removal of a third person who takes sides).

The triangulation concept is one of eight parts of Bowen's family systems theory: www.thebowencenter.org/pages/concepttri.html.  Bowen's point is that triangulation is occurring all the time - we are all involved in triangles - some good, some bad.

Getting Out  For the purpose of conflict resolution, it's helpful to understand triangulation and to avoid it.  Generally speaking, the first step for getting out of the triangle once you are in it is to identify the original source of the tension or problem and deal with it and not get all caught up the additional issues created by the triangulation.

The way to avoid creating triangles is to be self aware and not be lured by the immediate gratification that they offer. 

The Karpman Triangle further explained the conflict dynamics that can develop in triangulations.  Karpman identified that polarized roles of the participants emerge as one person assumes the role of victim.  He also explained that the roles often shift around in time increasing the conflict among the 3 parties. Staying out of the drama generally means not reacting in kind to the polarized view of the victim or embracing the polarized role in which you are cast. Stay centered. Karpman is explained here: Karpman Triangle. 

Misconceptions  Some members think of "triangulation" as a dysfunctional BPD behavior perpetrated on them by a person with BPD - and why not - this is how we see triangles when we are in them and the '"odd man out" smiley. Seeing it this way is exactly the opposite of what we want to do to end the drama.

Triangles are all around us. This was Bowen's point.  And while it is true that some triangulation can be dysfunctional - triangulation is most often functional or benign. 
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