Failed recycle, into day 5 nc

[Infern0]

Relationships are important because what we put out is reflected back at us and we can get feedback with how we act. I think connecting with people and relationships can be in all parts of your life with family, friends, romantic partners. She has issues but I think that many people have emotional baggage going into the relationship. You might be hard pressed to find someone that doesn't have emotional baggage.

She reaches out

Wants to rekindle

Things go well

Find out she had casual sex (possibly after reaching out)

She lies about it

Eventually admits

I try to break it off

She begs me not to

I give one more chance

She distances and starts to devalue me

Arguments

Over

What can you learn here?

Specifically why does she reach out? Why do you rekindle?

Let's have everyone chip in and help.

Who knows? Could be any number of reasons.

She needs something?

She's bored?

I start to physically improve so she becomes attracted again?

Triggers stop flaring and time heals?

She actually does want to try?

She does miss me?

Its all a sick game to her?

I think the only person who really knows is her, and maybe not even her

[JohnLove]

That's right.

Now the next step is to shift the focus back to you.

... .can't get to the third point without it.

[Mutt]

Relationships are important because what we put out is reflected back at us and we can get feedback with how we act. I think connecting with people and relationships can be in all parts of your life with family, friends, romantic partners. She has issues but I think that many people have emotional baggage going into the relationship. You might be hard pressed to find someone that doesn't have emotional baggage.

She reaches out

Wants to rekindle

Things go well

Find out she had casual sex (possibly after reaching out)

She lies about it

Eventually admits

I try to break it off

She begs me not to

I give one more chance

She distances and starts to devalue me

Arguments

Over

What can you learn here?

Specifically why does she reach out? Why do you rekindle?

Let's have everyone chip in and help.

Who knows? Could be any number of reasons.

She needs something?

She's bored?

I start to physically improve so she becomes attracted again?

Triggers stop flaring and time heals?

She actually does want to try?

She does miss me?

Its all a sick game to her?

I think the only person who really knows is her, and maybe not even her

You are right that it's hard to speculate and that she might not even know. A pwBPD may not be aware that they want rescue from a family member, a romantic partner or a non-disordered person. You are her savior, how is that going? A lesson that can be learned from this that you can take with you is don't rescue.

[Infern0]

Relationships are important because what we put out is reflected back at us and we can get feedback with how we act. I think connecting with people and relationships can be in all parts of your life with family, friends, romantic partners. She has issues but I think that many people have emotional baggage going into the relationship. You might be hard pressed to find someone that doesn't have emotional baggage.

She reaches out

Wants to rekindle

Things go well

Find out she had casual sex (possibly after reaching out)

She lies about it

Eventually admits

I try to break it off

She begs me not to

I give one more chance

She distances and starts to devalue me

Arguments

Over

What can you learn here?

Specifically why does she reach out? Why do you rekindle?

Let's have everyone chip in and help.

Who knows? Could be any number of reasons.

She needs something?

She's bored?

I start to physically improve so she becomes attracted again?

Triggers stop flaring and time heals?

She actually does want to try?

She does miss me?

Its all a sick game to her?

I think the only person who really knows is her, and maybe not even her

You are right that it's hard to speculate and that she might not even know. A pwBPD may not be aware that they want rescue from a family member, a romantic partner or a non-disordered person. You are her savior, how is that going? A lesson that can be learned from this that you can take with you is don't rescue.

Where I'd the line between rescue and simply being kind?

[Mutt]

Relationships are important because what we put out is reflected back at us and we can get feedback with how we act. I think connecting with people and relationships can be in all parts of your life with family, friends, romantic partners. She has issues but I think that many people have emotional baggage going into the relationship. You might be hard pressed to find someone that doesn't have emotional baggage.

She reaches out

Wants to rekindle

Things go well

Find out she had casual sex (possibly after reaching out)

She lies about it

Eventually admits

I try to break it off

She begs me not to

I give one more chance

She distances and starts to devalue me

Arguments

Over

What can you learn here?

Specifically why does she reach out? Why do you rekindle?

Let's have everyone chip in and help.

Who knows? Could be any number of reasons.

She needs something?

She's bored?

I start to physically improve so she becomes attracted again?

Triggers stop flaring and time heals?

She actually does want to try?

She does miss me?

Its all a sick game to her?

I think the only person who really knows is her, and maybe not even her

You are right that it's hard to speculate and that she might not even know. A pwBPD may not be aware that they want rescue from a family member, a romantic partner or a non-disordered person. You are her savior, how is that going? A lesson that can be learned from this that you can take with you is don't rescue.

Where I'd the line between rescue and simply being kind?

Boundaries. Boundaries protect you and take care of you. It is self compassion and self love. You can have compassion for her with boundaries. You're currently in no contact. Don't be friends for now because it will keep an emotional attachment and it will take longer for your wounds to heal. You can be kind but you need to self protect and take care of yourself first.

I have boundaries with my ex wife. I am kind to her because I understand that she like many people have personal battles that they face.

[Skip]

I split off the discussion about how we should treat each other.  It is here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286464.0

Let's talk about it.

[Skip]

Inferno,

I think you need to stop blaming these troubles on her. It's not really her any more.  

She is who she is. How she acts and treats you is consistent and repetitive. For you to be happy, she has to be someone else.

The same is true on your end. She's not completely happy with you. Neither of you are willing to make the change that the other is seeking. Its just not a good match.

This is a prototypical "too good to leave, too bad to stay" relationship.

Going back is not working for you. Going no-contact is not working for you.

Can you think of something different?

[Infern0]

Inferno,

I think you need to stop blaming these troubles on her. It's not really her any more.  

She is who she is. How she acts and treats you is consistent and repetitive. For you to be happy, she has to be someone else.

The same is true on your end. She's not completely happy with you. Neither of you are willing to make the change that the other is seeking. Its just not a good match.

This is a prototypical "too good to leave, too bad to stay" relationship.

Going back is not working for you. Going no-contact is not working for you.

Can you think of something different?

Well for right now I will remain nc. I have no problem holding to it on my end but if\when she contacts me... .I don't know

I realize I need to change myself for the better. And that is my goal now.

As for all or nothing relationship with her I don't know.

I do think our relationship could be improved somewhat if I was happy with myself, more confident, worried less etc.

I don't know skip what advice do you have?

[Skip]

I think you have to face the facts that she does not want to be in a committed relationship with you - date you, yes - commit to you, no.

You keep trying to change who she is, which is probably making matters worse, engulfing her, being clingy. I hate that word (clingy) but it gets the point across - no man wants to be that.

Why are you "no contact" right now? To show her you don't approve? She knows that if she calls you, today, next week, a month, you'll will be right back. She owns you. She knows it. No man wants to hear that either. These are harsh realities.

If you change who you are, effect better boundaries, she might actually might not be interested at all. More hard reality.

This is some work from our editorial group that appears on Wikipedia:

Risks of reestablishing values and boundaries

In Families and How to Survive Them, Robin Skinner MD explains methods for how family therapists can effectively help family members to develop clearer values and boundaries by when treating them, drawing lines, and treating different generations in different compartment[17] – something especially pertinent in families where unhealthy enmeshment overrides normal personal values.[18] However, the establishment of personal values and boundaries in such instances may produce a negative fall-out,[18] if the pathological state of enmeshment had been a central attraction or element of the relationship.[19] This is especially true if the establishment of healthy boundaries results in unilateral limit setting which did not occur previously. It is important to distinguish between unilateral limits and collaborative solutions in these settings.[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setting_boundaries#Risks_of_reestablishing_values_and_boundaries

Can you accept her for who she is?

Can you find a place for yourself in this relationship that you are proud of?

I'm not being critical of you. You love her. That's and innocent and honest emotion.

But it has become corrupted between the two you.  It's not all her. You are a equal part of it too. You have to unravel this.

I think the first step is to stop telling yourself that you are no contact. You're not, really. You're just mad and withdrawing. When the extinction is over, you will tee up for another recycle. You have to start being more honest with yourself.

We have a new board - saving a relationship in crisis - do you want to post there?

Inferno, we're family, we're all pulling for you.

[Infern0]

Look skip i hear exactly what you are saying, and yes I do admit to being clingy, due mostly to worry that she is going to repeat past things she's done which hurt me.

As for if i'm no contact etc, i don't know depends on the definition of it.

I'm using this time to improve myself so that I have options, if i can be in a better place if/when she comes back maybe i can make a better decision about any potential future

If any relationship is going to work there needs to be respect, do you understand that?

i'm never going to go down as a cuckolded husband, and if i stayed around and didn't establish some "dominance" for want of a better word, that's what would happen

I can accept her for who she is, as long as she doesn't cheat if we get together as a couple again

[Skip]

If any relationship is going to work there needs to be respect, do you understand that?

Sure. Do you respect her?  :)oes she respect you?

I can accept her for who she is, as long as she doesn't cheat if we get together as a couple again.

Were you in a committed relationship with her when she was with this last guy. If she sleeps with someone while you are currently "broken up/no contact" is that cheating?

I'm not giving you are hard time, I'm just asking the hard questions, trying to get you to see this as an outsider (your inner critic if yo will).  

I think it would help to inventory what the reality of what a relationship is for you. And then what a relationship for you.

[Infern0]

If any relationship is going to work there needs to be respect, do you understand that?

Sure. Do you respect her?  :)oes she respect you?

I can accept her for who she is, as long as she doesn't cheat if we get together as a couple again.

Were you in a committed relationship with her when she was with this last guy. If she sleeps with someone while you are currently "broken up/no contact" is that cheating?

I'm not giving you are hard time, I'm just asking the hard questions, trying to get you to see this as an outsider (your inner critic if yo will).  

I think it would help to inventory what the reality of what a relationship is for you. And then what a relationship for you.

No we were not together when she got with the last guy

and no i dont consider it cheating if she does that stuff when we are broken up

i don't like that it happens, but cheating is only when in a commited, defined relationship imo

[cosmonaut]

The only possible way this relationship could even potentially work, Infern0, is for you to be able to accept her as she is.  You will have to stop fixing.  You will have to stop hoping she will be someone else.  You have to even accept that she may never be able to overcome her disorder.  She is not her disorder, but her disorder is part of her.  You can't have one without the other.  Time isn't going to resolve this.  Working on yourself isn't going to change who she is.  This is hard to hear.  I understand.  These are very hard relationships.  In my opinion this is the only real question that matters at this point when considering if you can continue to attempt a relationship with her.

Edit:  I say this from personal experience.  I can say with certainty that my inability to be able to just accept my ex as she was more than anything ruined the relationship.  I kept trying to fix her, and you can't do that.  That's not loving.  We can support, but we can't fix.  She tried many, many times to tell me this and I was just too thick headed to hear it.  You have to just be cool with it, man.

[Infern0]

The only possible way this relationship could even potentially work, Infern0, is for you to be able to accept her as she is.  You will have to stop fixing.  You will have to stop hoping she will be someone else.  You have to even accept that she may never be able to overcome her disorder.  She is not her disorder, but her disorder is part of her.  You can't have one without the other.  Time isn't going to resolve this.  Working on yourself isn't going to change who she is.  This is hard to hear.  I understand.  These are very hard relationships.  In my opinion this is the only real question that matters at this point when considering if you can continue to attempt a relationship with her.

Yes people keep saying this

So what you are saying is I have a choice to accept that she's going to cheat on me and just let it happen or cut her out of my life completely?

There's no hope of her being honest and remaining faithful

[cosmonaut]

Yes people keep saying this

So what you are saying is I have a choice to accept that she's going to cheat on me and just let it happen or cut her out of my life completely?

There's no hope of her being honest and remaining faithful

Yes, sadly it's a possibility that she may continue to cheat.  I know that's hard to hear, but you can't fix her.  Only she can do that.  That doesn't mean you have to tolerate the cheating, however.  Not at all.

I don't think it has to be black or white.  I think it's possible to have a shade of gray, but you will have to first figure out what you want.  Everything will flow from that.

[Fr4nz]

The only possible way this relationship could even potentially work, Infern0, is for you to be able to accept her as she is.  You will have to stop fixing.  You will have to stop hoping she will be someone else.  You have to even accept that she may never be able to overcome her disorder.  She is not her disorder, but her disorder is part of her.  You can't have one without the other.  Time isn't going to resolve this.  Working on yourself isn't going to change who she is.  This is hard to hear.  I understand.  These are very hard relationships.  In my opinion this is the only real question that matters at this point when considering if you can continue to attempt a relationship with her.

Yes people keep saying this

So what you are saying is I have a choice to accept that she's going to cheat on me and just let it happen or cut her out of my life completely?

There's no hope of her being honest and remaining faithful

Well, given all the knowledge you have, as far as I can see you have three choices:

1) You keep wanting a relationship with her; you have to accept all her defects, at least until she doesn't enter therapy. This will be, most likely, an "emotional Vietnam".

2) You try for a friendship: we know this is risky due to boundary busting from BPDs side; moreover, if you keep having sex with her, you will continue to mess with your emotional stability as well.

3) You go full NC; very, VERY hard to do in the short term, but in the long run it greatly pays off, since it gives you clarity, detachment and emotional stability. Moreover, it will allow you to move on with your life and towards more sane relationships from an emotional point of view.

We cannot blame you, since we were probably all tempted by options 1 and 2.

However, keepi in mind that you cannot save her, nor you cannot force her to be someone she can't be... .

[Skip]

Were you in a committed relationship with her when she was with this last guy. If she sleeps with someone while you are currently "broken up/no contact" is that cheating?

No we were not together when she got with the last guy

In fairness to her, the "cheating" that brought us to this no contact was not cheating at all - you were broken up at the time - let's say this accurately.

I know this doesn't lessen the hurt, and I know it would hurt me, but when we are "no contact" or broken up, the other party is free to engage in other adult relationships. I say this because, it will help to stay a close to reality as possible. You are broken up now - your call - know what that means.

So what you are saying is I have a choice to accept that she's going to cheat on me and just let it happen or cut her out of my life completely?

There's no hope of her being honest and remaining faithful

If I may, I'd rephrase this to read:

So what you are saying is I have a choice to accept that she doesn't want to commit to Inferno's idea of her role in the relationship and I need to either find a balance where she can be herself and you can be comfortable or you can endlessly spar with make-up / break - up cycles, or you can call it a mismatch, and seek a different partner?

We all understand how hurtful it is that she slept with someone else when you were broken up. I can also empathize with her not wanting (or feeling she needed) to tell you about it.

Inferno, if you want to get on another path, you have to speak honestly with yourself and you are not doing that. Look, you started this thread with the title "Failed recycle, into day 5 nc" and at the same time, in post #23 you say you get upset at possible suggestions of real "no contact" "So what you are saying is I have a choice to accept that she's going to cheat on me and just let it happen or cut her out of my life completely? There's no hope of her being honest and remaining faithful"

I think the first step is to stop telling yourself that you are no contact. You're not, really. You're just mad and withdrawing. When the extinction is over, you will tee up for another recycle. You have to start being more honest with yourself

Get on the same page with yourself.  

1. She did not cheat. She dated when you broke up.

2. You are hurt, and dealing with that by starting silent treatment to express your disapproval

3. She tried to reach out and you rejected her

4. You have just created another "faux break-up" and situation where she may reach out to others - its tends to be how she responds to this.

5. You are not no contact  - you are awaiting her call, and if she doesn't, you will call her

6. You are not working on your clingy-ness (or on Saving or Staying or Personal Inventory), you are on Leaving and struggling with people telling you to Leave.

You have to be strong to be in a relationship with a person who is inherently weak.  You have to be big in a relationship with a person who is inherently small. You have to be consistent in a relationship with a person who needs structure. You have to have good coping skills with a person with weal coping skills. And lastly, you have to accept people for who they are and how much they they are willing to love you, share with you, commit to you - you can't force them to do it on your terms.

We all know this because we all did it to some level or another... .so its not a criticism. And clearly, she has her own issues.

You have to face the facts. Its the first step to getting on a better pathway.

[Beacher]

Inferno, I think we all have fallen into the ' maybe this time will be different' trap. I know I have and we become as sick as they are. But, my friend, we want you to live a long healthy life. If she has had multiple partners you are at great risk for deadly diseases. Bpd behavior is one thing but unprotected sex is quite another. Mine strayed his first time ( I hope to god) and he admitted to using no protection the hiv antibodies can lay dormant for 6 months... Please view it in this light, I want to see you more on this forum.