Would the relationship have survived if I was not codependent?

[hopealways]

I am a codependent. I am a people pleaser.

4.5 months NC after my 3.5 year relationship has me now wondering if I were not these things would the relationship have worked.

I know that my BPD did not like codependent traits.  Now I believe she saw right through them and realized I was weak emotionally and BPDs really just want a strong person because they know they are not strong.

Me reacting to every one of her outbursts and tantrums and irrational behavior instead of remaining calm or ignoring them made her feel more and more negative about me.  But in the moment it feels impossible not to react to someone yelling at you or saying awful things to you or driving 100mph in a car in a rage when you're the passenger.

I tried setting boundaries, but no matter what boundaries I set she would try to widen them. Nothing worked.

I always thought I was a "nice guy" but today I am realizing that a nice guy will do something without expecting anything in return: I wanted validation and reciprocal gestures in return.  I am not a nice guy.

Am I making excuses for her?  Am I accepting "responsibility"? I guess my thinking is that if I was not codependent then the relationship would have worked.  But then that means that there is a cure for BPD which rests in the non.

Anyone feel this way?

[butterfly15]

I know that my BPD did not like codependent traits.  Now I believe she saw right through them and realized I was weak emotionally and BPDs really just want a strong person because they know they are not strong.

Me reacting to every one of her outbursts and tantrums and irrational behavior instead of remaining calm or ignoring them made her feel more and more negative about me.  But in the moment it feels impossible not to react to someone yelling at you or saying awful things to you or driving 100mph in a car in a rage when you're the passenger.

I feel the same. When he hurt me emotionally by cutting me down, despising me, cheating on me it was all because I wasnt strong enough. I dont believe that. I feel I had real emotions and he had none. He reflected his disappointment of himself onto me during those times. I never felt that I was the people pleasing type. I was married for almost 7 years and very outspoken. I was a completely different person with my expwBPD(who was not my ex husband) I didnt like the person I was. I was an emotional wreck! I bit my tongue not to upset him because I wanted him. I was addicted.

[hopealways]

Butterfly, I think the answer is NO the relationship would have eventually ended anyways - maybe a while longer - but that I need to stop being codependent too. Because her ex was not codependent at all and she left him after a year (and still regrets it).

I guess the real lesson is that if I was not codependent I would have never fallen for her in the first place.

[Confused?]

Stronger individuals don't put up with pwBPD in general. One of my replacements lasted only a month because he seemed like a very cocky arrogant guy that simply didn't care for her bs.

[butterfly15]

Butterfly, I think the answer is NO the relationship would have eventually ended anyways - maybe a while longer - but that I need to stop being codependent too. Because her ex was not codependent at all and she left him after a year (and still regrets it).

I guess the real lesson is that if I was not codependent I would have never fallen for her in the first place.

I agree. When I stopped accepting his lies and manipulation he left.

[cosmonaut]

This is one of the eternal questions we have here.  I have it myself and I haven't been able to come to any sort of distinct resolution for myself.  It is hard to answer a question that can not be tested, isn't it?  Ultimately, we can't know.

There is a famous Latin quote from Horace that states "Est modus in rebus, sunt certi denique fines, Quos ultra citraque nequit consistere rectum" which translates as "There is a medium in all things, on either side of which right can not be found".  What this means is that virtue is in the middle.  I think this is a good concept to keep in mind when considering our relationship and our role in it.  What we almost always find is that mistakes were made by both parties.  Both partners needed to make changes for the relationship to succeed.  We readily see the mistakes of our partner, but our own mistakes are often much harder to see.  I think it is very positive that you are considering your own role in the relationship, but the truth is that it may have not been able to work no matter what changes you made.  A relationship takes two.  This is true of every relationship.  There are certainly things we could have done to improve our relationship with a partner with BPD.  Often we did not understand what was happening and we did not have to the proper tools.  Often we did not have the emotional stability needed for such a difficult relationship either.  It's hard to not flagellate ourselves for this - I do - but we can't change the past.  In the end, we did the best we could at the time.  We worked under our own limitations just as our partner did.

One of the best things we can do now is to work on ourselves and address the issues we've identified.  That will put us in the best possible position for a healthier relationship with a new partner or even a second chance with our ex with BPD.

[homefree]

I don't know. I feel like if I made things in any way less easy for her, she would have just jumped to the next guy sooner. That's probably part of the reason I walked on eggshells for so long. I could sense that it was a fragile bond on her side. Maybe she would have stayed longer if I had stronger boundaries for her, but in the end, it's just better to be with someone who has a stable sense of themselves that would actually allow a relationship to build into someone real and good. In the end I would just be trying to minimize the damage. And without the fantasy of codependancy to drive me, I would have said to hell with it long ago. 

But it's all a guessing game 

[hopealways]

From what I have seen BPD relationships with non codependents do last longer but in the end the BPD craves the type of attention, love and nurturing only a codependent can supply so they will leave the non codependent for a codependent and of course push away that very person (the codependent) who is the only one able to supply them with all that love.

So it is a Catch 22 and a vicious cycle.

[butterfly15]

From what I have seen BPD relationships with non codependents do last longer but in the end the BPD craves the type of attention, love and nurturing only a codependent can supply so they will leave the non codependent for a codependent and of course push away that very person (the codependent) who is the only one able to supply them with all that love.

So it is a Catch 22 and a vicious cycle.

This makes sense to me. I think I initially was co dependent for him. He made himself out to be such a victim. I felt sorry for him. His actions begin to hurt me. I walked on eggshells for a bit and I just couldn't do it anymore. I called him out on a bunch of things and became non codependent. I was not as nurturing and attentive. He started to become mean and pull away. Wanting me to submit to him. I refused. He left. He most likely had a replacement for a bit. I saw his behaviors changing. I think he currently has another me. The old me. The naive, trusting, loving person and probably a few to feed his ego for sex.

[Itstopsnow]

Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't people that are not co dependent more inclined to leave sooner? I was codependent and stayed 18 months. Most healthy people would of left between month 3 to 6. That's why a lot of times you read that people with BPD have a "series" of "short term" unstable stormy relationships. Measured usually in weeks or months. Not years. I feel a non condependent would call the person out on their stuff and it would never be resolved bc the BPD person can't . So it would break them up

[fromheeltoheal]

A codependent is someone who puts someone else's needs ahead of their own.  To the extreme a codependent doesn't acknowledge their needs at all, the other person's are the only ones that matter, and not only that, a codependent gets an identity, sense of purpose and fulfillment by focusing on and meeting the other person's needs.

A borderline, someone without a 'self' of their own, seeks to attach to someone else to become whole, to create one person, a psychic fusing, so of course a codependent couldn't have independent needs, how could they, it's one person.  Plus, borderlines are in a lot of psychic pain and when we're in pain we can only focus on our needs, so a borderline/codependent relationship can work as long as everyone fulfills their roles: it's all about the borderline, always.

And a borderline is in constant fear of both abandonment and engulfment, two opposing fears, and continually trying to straddle the fence between them.  A handy way to do that is to control the relationship: attack someone's self esteem so they don't have the courage to leave while also controlling the emotional distance in the relationship so they won't get too close, handling both fears at once.

Sucks in hindsight don't it?  Who would sign up for that?  We would, until we either wise up or get left; an emotionally healthy person would walk away at the first sign of that crap, in fact borderlines have radar for such people and wouldn't even try, so the relationship would never get started.  It's the susceptible ones that get the attention, folks like us who need an education and get it at borderline school, which is the good news really, teachers tend to show up when the student is ready, and come in interesting disguises sometimes.

[cosmonaut]

I'm not sure this idea that packing our bags at the first hint of trouble in a relationship is a remotely healthy behavior.  I think this is some black or white thinking.  We don't have to tolerate abuse and we don't have to remain in a relationship with no future, but we don't have to bolt either.  Commitment is a sign of character.  It is healthy to want to work on a relationship.  There is a shade of grey.

[fromheeltoheal]

I'm not sure this idea that packing our bags at the first hint of trouble in a relationship is a remotely healthy behavior.  I think this is some black or white thinking.  We don't have to tolerate abuse and we don't have to remain in a relationship with no future, but we don't have to bolt either.  Commitment is a sign of character.  It is healthy to want to work on a relationship.  There is a shade of grey.

Yes, it usually isn't that black and white, although it can be helpful to exaggerate for emphasis when we're trying to condense something as complex as human behavior into 4 paragraphs.

And it's interesting to look back and identify the point where things became unacceptable in the relationship and yet we stayed anyway.  How long was that and why did we stay?  Was it that sense of commitment and desire to work on the relationship or something else?  Some of us didn't have any experience with mental illness before and got blindsided, and it took a while to wake up, while some of us fell into something that felt familiar to their past and therefore comfortable on that level.  There are great opportunities for growth there, digging into all that, using the pain of the end of the relationship as motivation fuel to address issues we'd been avoiding or didn't know existed.  What if everything happens for a reason and it serves us?

[once removed]

mixed thoughts:

i think we sometimes have a tendency to see "codependency" as "weakness" in a relationship - ie, "i didnt stand up for myself, i put his/her needs ahead of me, im a codependent". codependency is more complex than that. codependency too, is on a spectrum.

"codependent" is not a label im at all comfortable applying to myself or my relationship with a pwBPD. are there traits and behaviors of codependency that i relate to? definitely. and they have inhibited me and my relationships. but we need to be careful with this label, how it applies to us personally, and how or whether it applies to others.

more over, my ex and i did not break up because "she is BPD and i am codependent", or not. it ended for a variety of reasons with the bottom line being that we could not sustain it. i give myself a C or a B when it comes to having consistently enforced boundaries. given how i responded to her rages, you could say i "stood up for myself", but theres a flaw to that thinking. i dont believe in the context of abuse or unacceptable behavior, one should have to "stand up for themselves" in a healthy relationship (neither should one be a doormat). and "standing up for myself" usually wasnt a healthy expression. truly standing up for myself would have been to exit the relationship.

to answer your question, hopealways, if you were "not these things", your relationship simply would have been different, whatever "different" means. as cosmonaut said, it takes two, so theres really zero guarantee as to what "different" would have entailed. worse? better? shorter? longer? whos to say?

I always thought I was a "nice guy" but today I am realizing that a nice guy will do something without expecting anything in return: I wanted validation and reciprocal gestures in return.  I am not a nice guy.

this is very insightful and honest but strikes me as a bit black and white. a lot of men get really jaded about this "nice guy" stuff; ive been there. the idea behind it usually involves trying to obtain self worth from "nice" acts that "prove" our love and our worth, and be accepted, loved, and appreciated as a result. you are right that at its base, this attitude may not be love, its not authentic to ourselves, and it doesnt necessarily respect the others individuality or even our own.

none of that means you can or should be entirely free of the expectation that your partner will appreciate acts of kindness or reciprocate or that that expectation means youre not a nice guy.

i hold the door open for everyone. i dont derive self worth from doing it, or the thanks i get, nor do i feel lesser if someone doesnt thank me. but does it rub me the wrong way when i hold the door open and someone doesnt thank me? definitely, its rude. perhaps i wouldnt do it again for that person, perhaps i might. in general, im going to keep holding the door open for everyone because i deem it the right thing to do, not because it makes me feel like a nice guy or proves to someone else that i am.

[cosmonaut]

And it's interesting to look back and identify the point where things became unacceptable in the relationship and yet we stayed anyway.  How long was that and why did we stay?  Was it that sense of commitment and desire to work on the relationship or something else?  Some of us didn't have any experience with mental illness before and got blindsided, and it took a while to wake up, while some of us fell into something that felt familiar to their past and therefore comfortable on that level.  There are great opportunities for growth there, digging into all that, using the pain of the end of the relationship as motivation fuel to address issues we'd been avoiding or didn't know existed.  What if everything happens for a reason and it serves us?

I certainly agree with you here.  This is an opportunity for profound growth and self improvement.  

[hopealways]

A codependent is someone who puts someone else's needs ahead of their own.  To the extreme a codependent doesn't acknowledge their needs at all, the other person's are the only ones that matter, and not only that, a codependent gets an identity, sense of purpose and fulfillment by focusing on and meeting the other person's needs.

A borderline, someone without a 'self' of their own, seeks to attach to someone else to become whole, to create one person, a psychic fusing, so of course a codependent couldn't have independent needs, how could they, it's one person.  Plus, borderlines are in a lot of psychic pain and when we're in pain we can only focus on our needs, so a borderline/codependent relationship can work as long as everyone fulfills their roles: it's all about the borderline, always.

And a borderline is in constant fear of both abandonment and engulfment, two opposing fears, and continually trying to straddle the fence between them.  A handy way to do that is to control the relationship: attack someone's self esteem so they don't have the courage to leave while also controlling the emotional distance in the relationship so they won't get too close, handling both fears at once.

Sucks in hindsight don't it?  Who would sign up for that?  We would, until we either wise up or get left; an emotionally healthy person would walk away at the first sign of that crap, in fact borderlines have radar for such people and wouldn't even try, so the relationship would never get started.  It's the susceptible ones that get the attention, folks like us who need an education and get it at borderline school, which is the good news really, teachers tend to show up when the student is ready, and come in interesting disguises sometimes.

This is a very accurate description.

[Indiegrl]

Lot of good points here

Very well put indeed, fromheeltoheal:

Sucks in hindsight don't it?  Who would sign up for that?  We would, until we either wise up or get left; an emotionally healthy person would walk away at the first sign of that crap, in fact borderlines have radar for such people and wouldn't even try, so the relationship would never get started.  It's the susceptible ones that get the attention, folks like us who need an education and get it at borderline school, which is the good news really, teachers tend to show up when the student is ready, and come in interesting disguises sometimes.

Yes I signed up for it, and in retrospect I am sure that if I had "lived my values" and taken the consequences of what I deep down knew was wrong (his boundarybusting and lack of trust, his way of criticizing my values and way of life), this relationship would have been over within 3 months.

It has been bothering me that at the same time this is the one relationship that has given me the most, not only in terms of (toxic) intensity and emotionality, but in terms of me receiving actual good stuff. He WAS a very giving boyfriend and he did challenge my inherent strategy of (lonely child) self-sufficiency-strategy. Was it all mirroring? More than I like to admit, I guess.

As the projections went crazy (wild accusations, blaming and anger) I was able to no more "try to please" his needs, but instead was able to - for the first time - calmly formulate and state my legitimate needs of having trust, space, other friendships, enough time to sleep and work. Watching how he handled that - with outrage and disbelief, calling me extremely egoistic etc - made me sober up from the intoxicating state of FOG and sexual&romantic intensity: I was addicted, and I lost myself in that addiction. As long as I worked so hard to cover his needs I got paid well. When his "demands" became more than I could handle, I stated my basic needs, and his reaction told me how far from each other we really stood: I could not cover his needs, and he could not cover mine.

Very valuable lessons indeed, the most intense learning in my life, right there.