Talked To My (In-Limbo) Ex Last Night (Part 1)

[MapleBob]

Previous threads (background):

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286047.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286550.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286838.0

So, I talked to my ex last night. All in all it was a good conversation: four hours, good connecting, I was definitely cool and supportive and validating and made her laugh. We *will* have more contact soon, probably after her Christmas travel plans (three days in Vegas). We didn't talk a whole lot about our relationship, but she said that she wanted to talk more about that next time we talk.

What we did talk A LOT about (besides the normal catching-up chit chat small talk that we always do) was her ex-husband. A LOT. She cried and told me that she's been doing a lot of work in therapy about her relationship with him (they have a daughter, so they're still close). A little background on them: she left him about five years ago, when their daughter was 2, but they've remained best friends / enmeshed codependent exes, and she's getting tired of basically people-pleasing and being his constant go-to for support and affection and connection. I've met him, he's a pretty good guy (and definitely a good dad), but kind of a grown-up teenager. Anyway, he was a MAJOR obstacle in our relationship. Due to the long distance and their shared custody, my ex and I being able to freely be together in a way that would work for me to move there was, at best, complicated by him. He wanted to know me and be buddy-buddy with me before I could be a part of HER life, because of their daughter. The problem was: when I would visit, there was nothing we wanted LESS than to be hanging out with her fu**ing ex-husband! So I didn't get to know him, and she didn't want to rock the boat with him, so we never achieved liftoff on having the relationship that we wanted. Very controlling, right? So my ex is doing work in therapy to try to get free of those expectations, but still be able to have a relationship with him. (She describes him as a brother - "It's exactly like family", so this isn't a matter of them secretly still wanting to be together. Not AT ALL.)

So, she talked a lot about that, and cried, and got emotional about it. Honestly she's a mess about it - about learning to ignore his nitpicky comments about her life, about being assertive with him, about letting go of seeking his approval, about detaching. So these are good things! But they're also hard things for me to be hearing about and being supportive about, because this guy basically prevented her and I from getting to any kind of conventional place in our relationship. She has acknowledged that.

So, I wound up playing therapist, and that resulted in us not talking about OUR relationship very much - which was one of my goals for the conversation, so good! I'm proud of myself for being VERY calm and supportive and wise and grounded and validating and matter-of-fact. The little bit we did talk about our relationship was mostly vague. She said that things between us are "still confusing", and that she's still here, and that we'll talk more about it later, once things settle down. She asked if I felt like she was "using" me, and I said that I didn't, and that I wanted to be supportive of her, but that yeah, things are still weird between us and I want to get that sorted out eventually.

Long story sort: I left the conversation feeling like we connected, and like she was vulnerable, and I let her talk a lot and get some things out. It was a far cry from "I think we should say goodbye soon", at the very least. But I feel no less in limbo with her, I didn't feel much in the way of romantic vibes... .it honestly felt like talking to an adult child who can't handle her emotions or empathize very much with the position that she's left me in. I feel resentful to a degree that things with her ex are STILL keeping us from connecting about OUR relationship. So I don't know. I'm going to wait a day or two and drop her a text to thank her for being vulnerable and talking to me about things in her life, and reiterate that I'd like to talk soon after Christmas.

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[MapleBob]

So I guess that basically I'm trying to get a grip on the dual potential realities here: the wishful-thinking one where I'm supporting her in getting to a place where we could maybe be together again (which does, at times, feel like the "friendzone", a term/construct that I honestly despise), and the reality where she's using our intimacy level as an excuse to dump a bunch of her problems on me with only slight reciprocity or consideration for the fact that we have some issues of our own to deal with!

[flourdust]

Umm... .it sounds like you've been placed in the "Rescuer" role in the drama triangle, with ex-husband as the "Persecutor."

Rescuer is a sweet spot. You feel needed. It doesn't last, though.

[MapleBob]

Umm... .it sounds like you've been placed in the "Rescuer" role in the drama triangle, with ex-husband as the "Persecutor."

Rescuer is a sweet spot. You feel needed. It doesn't last, though.

Yeah, maybe. I *am* starting to feel somewhat taken advantage of. I texted her just now and basically got the brush-off. "I know we need to have a real talk, it's just a weird time." So, more waiting. Fun. My favorite.

[MapleBob]

Ugh, I hate this. Talking to her always makes me spiral out about what it all means, when what it probably really means is that she's going to hold me at arms-length for the foreseeable future (no matter how many "right" moves I make), until I can't stand it anymore. I haven't even *seen* her in almost ten months!

[Skip]

Sounds like this approach is working... .she started to let her guard down.

Long story sort: I left the conversation feeling like we connected, and like she was vulnerable, and I let her talk a lot and get some things out. It was a far cry from "I think we should say goodbye soon", at the very least. But I feel no less in limbo with her, I didn't feel much in the way of romantic vibes... .it honestly felt like talking to an adult child who can't handle her emotions or empathize very much with the position that she's left me in. I feel resentful to a degree that things with her ex are STILL keeping us from connecting about OUR relationship. So I don't know. I'm going to wait a day or two and drop her a text to thank her for being vulnerable and talking to me about things in her life, and reiterate that I'd like to talk soon after Christmas.

Patience.

Fours hours is a long call. I'd let it sit for a while and see what she does. Don't over-pursue. It doesn't work with where she is right now.  Write that on a side of a barn somewhere.  

[MapleBob]

Sounds like this approach is working... .she started to let her guard down.

Patience.

Fours hours is a long call. I'd let it sit for a while and see what she does. Don't over-pursue. It doesn't work with where she is right now.  Write that on a side of a barn somewhere.  

You think the length of the call is significant? She did say that she didn't expect the call to go like that: she wanted to talk about TV shows and life and laugh and so on, but she wound up dumping a bunch of things out that she had been stressing about. And then today she was pretty ... .mixed? Dismissive? It felt like "yeah yeah, we'll talk about us later, leave me alone again." Like this isn't even remotely a priority for her, when it certainly is for me! /rant 

[MapleBob]

I mean, this is a woman who will force space between us for 3-4 weeks at a time and then spend three hours talking to me about her ex-husband problems... .sheesh.

[patientandclear]

MB, it probably isn't as much about whether you are a priority, as her inability to process or deal with this right now. My rule of thumb with my pwBPD is that it takes him twice as long as I imagine it could in my wildest dreams, to process anything emotionally heavy or complicated. Many, many days longer than I can identify with. There are many similar accounts on this board.

[Skip]

I mean, this is a woman who will force space between us for 3-4 weeks at a time and then spend three hours talking to me about her ex-husband problems... .sheesh.

Something is broken in the relationship, bob. This is, of course, not normal. Now that you have made it past the doomsday call, and you have backed it off are giving her space, it might be worth trying to put your hand on it.

What do you think is bothering her?

[MapleBob]

MB, it probably isn't as much about whether you are a priority, as her inability to process or deal with this right now. My rule of thumb with my pwBPD is that it takes him twice as long as I imagine it could in my wildest dreams, to process anything emotionally heavy or complicated. Many, many days longer than I can identify with. There are many similar accounts on this board.

I understand this, to a certain extent, but it's been TEN MONTHS. Granted, we've been through a few "phases" post-breakup. A no contact phase, a pretty fraught re-connecting/identifying-the-problems phase where I was pushing pretty hard for reconciliation and she gave a lot of mixed signals, a "let's be friends" phase, and now this new low-contact/monthly-contact phase where things are still confusing, and I'm still getting strong signals in both directions ("just give up on me!", "don't give up on me!" - all while ultimately, temporarily? pushing me away).

I mean, this is a woman who will force space between us for 3-4 weeks at a time and then spend three hours talking to me about her ex-husband problems... .sheesh.

Something is broken in the relationship, bob. This is, of course, not normal. Now that you have made it past the doomsday call, and you have backed it off are giving her space, it might be worth trying to put your hand on it.

What do you think is bothering her?

In terms of ... .?

I mean, she was pretty clear that she wasn't sure why our talk went the way it did, and that she had agreed/wanted to just have a nice catching-up talk where we'd laugh and get to enjoy each other for a few hours on the phone. She just had feelings up about her ex-husband that were present and distracting and she knows that I'm a good person to go to for support. Whether that's taking advantage of me or not is not really the issue here - if we were having a normal, well-defined, healthy relationship then OF COURSE I'd be happy to support her in whatever. It's just the one-sided nature of it right now that is kind of a problem, and the limbo we're in.

Yes, I think that being patient and supportive of her is helping, but I'm still being pushed away, which I don't like. I don't want to be a pest, but I do want to move things forward and get out of the darkness with her. It sounds like I'm going to have an opportunity to do some relationship processing with her later this month, I've been casually texting her a little bit again about light topics (though I'm going to step back on that for a minute), and I'm not sure where to go next. I feel like I could definitely get angry and direct and give ultimatums and cut through the B.S., but I don't think that's even close to my best move. I'd rather be patient and loving and actually see some progress from her about our relationship, as opposed to this "too much too soon, gotta go!" stuff I've been getting.

She thinks that she's the problem (and she is), so how do I deal with that?

[MapleBob]

Or maybe I'm completely nuts and she isn't giving mixed signals at all, and she selfishly just wants me to be her friend now because I'm really really good at it because I still love/want her.

[DreamGirl]

Or maybe I'm completely nuts and she isn't giving mixed signals at all, and she selfishly just wants me to be her friend now because I'm really really good at it because I still love/want her.

Or maybe it doesn't have to be complicated. Maybe we don't have to over-analyze it to the point we're trying to mold the other person to be the person we know/want/hope they can be.

Maybe it's just face value stuff.

She called you because you're supportive. That's OK.

Ex-husband stuff is messy especially when there is a kid involved. There becomes a tug-of-war of time and values and lots of other stuff. I've been there and done that. I exhausted myself actually and pushed it to the point of breaking.

It's also her battle and demons to deal with.  

My husband has a sort of enmeshed, unhealthy relationship with his ex-wife (who is the BPD soul in my life). I can not change that. He seems to have found his place in it. So all my boundaries are about me. "I won't play therapist" is a good one. (Except you have to express it kinder, "Hey, I'm proud of you for working on your stuff with your ex. Let's talk about something else for a bit if that's OK?"



She doesn't need you to figure out what she's doing right and wrong with her ex. She needs to figure that stuff out. It's also not all that abnormal to lack boundaries in divorce. I did. My husband did. My exH did. You learn and get better about it over time. It does not happen over night.

All the things that she is doing is really good (working on her stuff). Expectations can be overwhelming when you're working on your stuff. Un-achievable expectations can be downright exhausting and defeating.

Being in a relationship (of any kind) is often about acceptance of the other person exactly as they are. Not some trumped up version of who you know the person can be (or who you want the other person to be). My marriage counselor said most relationships fail due to "unmet" expectations.

She expects what from you?

You expect what from her?

Is it feasible or reasonable?  

[MapleBob]

All the things that she is doing is really good (working on her stuff). Expectations can be overwhelming when you're working on your stuff. Un-achievable expectations can be downright exhausting and defeating.

Being in a relationship (of any kind) is often about acceptance of the other person exactly as they are. Not some trumped up version of who you know the person can be (or who you want the other person to be). My marriage counselor said most relationships fail due to "unmet" expectations.

I know, and I told her that very very clearly. You know: "It's really really great to see you making progress with him, and progress in yourself, and I know that it's really hard and I'm SO proud of you." I was BEYOND supportive, and I gave her very good advice and counsel and I wasn't pushy about "us" stuff. I put it aside because she needed me to. As I said upthread (or maybe in my other thread?), he was a major obstacle to us taking our relationship to the next level. And she was very unwilling to do her part in changing that dynamic with him while we were together, so I am thrilled that she's doing it now, even if it's not necessarily so that she can have a better/advancing relationship with me.

HOWEVER, she's asking a lot and giving very little - and, sure, to some extent that's par for the course when someone is making major changes in their life - but I need at least a little more than this. I need at least some assurance! That's not a lot to ask for. If she would just say "hey, things are a little crazy in my life right now, and I have some messes to get past, but I want to have the best relationship with you right now that I can have, and I want to have an even better one with you some day, and I think we should see each other in a casual way until we're in a position to get more serious about this, because you make my life better and I love you, etc." that would be INCREDIBLE.

She expects what from you?

You expect what from her?

Is it feasible or reasonable?  

Those are very good questions with very unclear answers, because I hear everything under the sun from her in terms of expectations. If I cancel out all of the opposing messages: she expects me to have no expectations of her, and to be chill about this, and to be available if/when she wants me. What I expect from her is to be doing some work to get clear with me about her intentions for this relationship and how to get there, to not hold me at arm's length if that's not where she actually wants me (and to not jerk me back and forth between distance and intimacy), and to do her work to become stable and available and safe in her life while still maintaining her relationship with me. I think that those things ARE feasible and reasonable.

The fact of the matter is: we have NEVER had a serious talk after the breakup about what a reconciliation could/would look like. She has kept that off the table and danced around the issue for ten months. I can't tell anymore if that is about "not now" or "not ever", and while I vacillate about what to believe in that respect, I don't think I'm crazy for believing her to be on the fence about it.

[MapleBob]

She called you because you're supportive. That's OK.

Oh, and also: she didn't just call me up because she needed support. We had this talk scheduled a month ahead of time. I sat and waited and left her alone and bit my nails and read articles/forum posts and got advice and stopped pushing and set my intentions on having a fun, light-hearted talk with her. We wound up talking for four hours and at least half of that was emotional support about her ex-husband. And I'm her ex! Giving her support about her other ex! When our relationship is in a confusing, push/pull crisis!

[DreamGirl]

HOWEVER, she's asking a lot and giving very little - and, sure, to some extent that's par for the course when someone is making major changes in their life - but I need at least a little more than this. I need at least some assurance! That's not a lot to ask for. If she would just say "hey, things are a little crazy in my life right now, and I have some messes to get past, but I want to have the best relationship with you right now that I can have, and I want to have an even better one with you some day, and I think we should see each other in a casual way until we're in a position to get more serious about this, because you make my life better and I love you, etc." that would be INCREDIBLE.

I once read somewhere that two people in a happy and healthy relationship are independently happy (with themselves). They enrich the other person's life once they come on scene --- and life becomes more abundant of joy and happiness and you have a partner with a lower level of dependency (which is good).

It really sounds like that is what your ex is doing, trying to find the independent happiness.

Are you trying to do the same?

Are you waiting for her? Are you dating other people? Do you want to date other people?

Actions always speak volumes in these situations. She's expressing to you what it is that she needs and what she's willing to give here. Which sounds like it's bread crumbs at this point.

That's OK. It is what it is. I've done (trauma) therapy myself and it caused an insurmountable amount of issues in my marriage (at first). It was a two year long process (that was complicated by the death of my father) that landed my husband in an extra-marital affair. (I'm not so naïve to not know that my neglectful ways didn't push him away) I also could not promise a happy ending to anything at the time, because I was immersed in a bunch of drudged up crap. I was operating at a pretty low level at that point to give anyone anything. The only way I know how to describe it is that you're literally treading water to not drown.  

It's why they tell addicts not to get in relationships for the first year of recovery. Or newly divorced couples. Or a recent widow.

They're just not always emotionally available to be able to give a whole lot.

Maybe that's just where she's at?

Are your expectations reasonable? For this particular person?

Meaning that your expectations are reasonable (to be assured) but maybe not of her?

Maybe her plate is only as full as she's able to have it. Maybe supporting her in this friendly nature without a whole lot of expectations could help her feel more comfortable? Maybe space would help her not only be independent, but realize what it is that she wants (if that's you)?

So the question becomes what is enough for you?

What is not enough?  

[Skip]

For Board participants reference:

Hi bpdfamily, this is my first post here, although I have been reading these forums for weeks and trying to take the advice to heart. I'm going to try to try to keep this short and relevant and see if anyone has thoughts about what I should do next... .

I haven't seen my ex girlfriend in 9 months, though we have remained in mixed contact. She has NOT been diagnosed borderline, though I am fairly (reluctantly) confident that she IS borderline. The lack of diagnosis doesn't really matter, though: she displays multiple traits of a borderline (or at least she does with me), so my experience with her is very much in line with other stories I've read here.

We met on a dating site almost two years ago, had a *magical* first date, had SO MUCH in common, fell in love quickly, and proceeded to have a long-distance (well, middle-distance) relationship for 14 months, seeing each other on average every third weekend. We were in constant contact through text message, Skype, and email - pretty much 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. Plans were being hatched for me to move to be with her permanently, but she lives in Canada and I'm in the States, so that was a complicated and expensive prospect that was going to take some time. In the beginning we were also casually dating other people in our respective towns, but eventually the decision was reached to be monogamous (after she blew up about it, dumped me, and then calmly told me that she had wanted to be exclusive all along despite giving no indication of that - which would have been fine with me!).

After a few months of monogamy and numerous breakup threats (all initiated by her, with the reasoning being that I didn't love her THE MOST, or enough), we (well, *she*) officially called it quits after a rocky Valentine's Day weekend earlier this year. In my analysis, she had wanted a more codependent relationship where I would be as obsessed with her as she was with me, rather than a healthy relationship of two independent adults. Any issues she had with my love style were kept a secret by her, I was supposed to be able to read her mind, and I was supposed to be completely obsessed with her. She just wasn't able to feel healthy love and healthy attachment AS love, at least not after the honeymoon period wore off. It was only many months after the breakup that I found out that her mother was a terrible alcoholic and had been for years, that she had had a very troubled childhood because of that, her father had cheated openly multiple times, and that my ex was deeply affected by all of this, for obvious reasons. She definitely went through a time of crazy promiscuity shortly before I met her, and had cheated on her ex-husband and still hasn't told him (I found out about this on our first date, by the way). She is high-functioning in her daily life (though she describes having "30 different moods a day", but certainly not with me! To hear her speak of it: we had a few good months, the distance and longing became too hard to deal with, and she started to blame me for it, while honestly believing that I just wasn't interested in her. I *know* that that was not the case; I am *not* a negligent partner by any stretch of the imagination (and my intensity and approach towards her varied not even slightly throughout our time together). It seems, quite simply, to be the classic "idealize/devalue/act out" borderline cycle. But to this day she insists that "well, my perspective is my perspective and I experienced what I experienced and it's all real to me". 

Since then it has been a rollercoaster, and her borderline traits have truly started to show. Mixed messages, push/pull, splitting - the works! It's almost too much to write it all down. I've tried to be a good friend to her, I've made attempts at reconciliation, I've done no contact, but I just can't seem to let this girl go. She'll say that a part of her "wants to be allowed to love me again", but that another part of her "refuses to let go" of feeling "SO pathetic for loving (me) like that the first time", so she just wants to be friends, but insists that we only talk once a month. Those "talks", by the way, are generally fights, where she cries, splits me black, splits me white, splits herself black/white, blames me and plays the victim, blames herself and says that she feels broken and like a failure, says that she wants to hug me and misses me, thinks about me ALL the time, but refuses to see me... .all the while insisting that this is all just "for now" (whaaaaaat?). She says that I'm wasting my time on her, that I should tell her to f*** off and be done with it, and that she needs time and space to process (which I'm already giving her, and she has shown ZERO progress from this time and space - and it's been nine months!). Her: "When I'm in communication with you it's like a Russian roulette happy/angry/sad/anxious/pulling my hair out. I can't count on how it will feel from one minute to the next." I'm pretty consistently calm and patient with her (which is difficult), but she picks a fight with me EVERY TIME WE TALK. And sometimes she's sweet, and sometimes we laugh, and she talks about sending Christmas cards and eventually seeing each other in person once things calm down, and that she just doesn't know what to do about us.

So, long story short, I'm in limbo and hoping that her therapy work is going to give her some insight into herself that will lead her back towards me (but from what I gather from talking to her about her therapy work she's mostly doing work about her ex-husband - and not, y'know, the troubled, problematic, obsessive, messy relationship that she has with me!). So I need advice as to how to make a decision to stay (and how to DO that), or to let her go (and how to do THAT). I don't feel like I'm articulating this very well, so I'm happy to answer questions. I'm well aware that mis-diagnosing your ex as borderline is pretty hip right now, and that's not what I'm trying to do here. I wish she WASN'T.

[Skip]

Now that you have stabilized things a bit and are laying low, its probably a good time to take this apart and examine the pieces. You may need to retool how you are looking at this.

A couple of things stand out from your first post, above.  Fourteen fast and passionate months, nine months of physical and emotional unavailability, her ex-husband is currently a focal point of her ongoing therapy, and you are proportionately holding the relationship together.

What is going on regarding the ex-husband?  How close did your relationship follow on the heals of her divorce?  What separated them?

[MapleBob]

I once read somewhere that two people in a happy and healthy relationship are independently happy (with themselves). They enrich the other person's life once they come on scene --- and life becomes more abundant of joy and happiness and you have a partner with a lower level of dependency (which is good).

It really sounds like that is what your ex is doing, trying to find the independent happiness.

Are you trying to do the same?

Are you waiting for her? Are you dating other people? Do you want to date other people?

I do think she is trying to do that, and I think she realizes that one of the big problems in our relationship was her wanting me to MAKE her happy, and MAKE it work. FOR her, not WITH her. Like I've said, I'm cool with that, and I encourage that, and that's a necessary step for her, absolutely.

I am casually dating, yes. I've basically gone back to what I was doing before I met her, but with the added difficulty of "I know which girl I want, I just can't have her right now, or maybe not ever." Which is okay, but not ideal. As far as I can tell she isn't dating anyone. I think she might have had a short-term rebound relationship (not 100% sure), but I'm fairly confident that she isn't dating anyone right now.

Actions always speak volumes in these situations. She's expressing to you what it is that she needs and what she's willing to give here. Which sounds like it's bread crumbs at this point.

Well, here's the thing with the (probably fairly valid) "she just doesn't have it in her right now" argument: I have some pretty clear evidence that she DOES have it in her, just not for me. Me specifically. She has been perfectly capable of planning vacations and camping trips (she's going to Las Vegas with her ex-husband and daughter for Christmas), going out drinking with her friends, going to work and feeling bored and like she wants to take on more professional responsibility at her job, spending time with family, doing her book club, etc. etc. Those are all good things, and things that I want her to have for herself, but when I toss out that I'd like to come visit her some time and see how it feels to relate to each other in person it's "oh my goodness, I just don't have the time or energy or effort to expend on this or that or the other thing, I'm SO busy, and things are weird and hard in my life, oh my god stop pressuring me... ." I get that things are more complicated with me than they are with her friends or her job or whatever, but what would ME coming to HER for A DAY really set her back? And it's not even "I don't want to see you, I can't even think about seeing you again", it's "we'll do that some day, this is just right now." It wouldn't even have to be a "date", and I've told her that. I would absolutely travel the 300 miles to have coffee and go to a movie and talk with her for a bit and have a hug and a cry or whatever winds up happening.

Maybe her plate is only as full as she's able to have it. Maybe supporting her in this friendly nature without a whole lot of expectations could help her feel more comfortable? Maybe space would help her not only be independent, but realize what it is that she wants (if that's you)?

So the question becomes what is enough for you?

What is not enough?  

What's happening right now is not enough. I'm not sure what would be enough. I think "enough" right now could be as simple as "let's hang out some weekend, I'll make time for that", or actually showing me some of this love that she claims to have for me. I don't need a commitment of undying committed love from her right now, I need to see her expending some effort to keep me around. Maybe I need to back away big time for her to make that move, but I just don't know.

[MapleBob]

Now that you have stabilized things a bit and are laying low, its probably a good time to take this apart and examine the pieces. You may need to retool how you are looking at this.

A couple of things stand out from your first post, above.  Fourteen fast and passionate months, nine months of physical and emotional unavailability, her ex-husband is currently a focal point of her ongoing therapy, and you are proportionately holding the relationship together.

What is going on regarding the ex-husband?  How close did your relationship follow on the heals of her divorce?  What separated them?

Okay, good questions!

Here's the interesting part of the story that I guess I left out: they've been separated for five years, but are only NOW actually signing divorce papers (literally just started the process a month ago, but there were some paperwork hitches and it's dragged out a bit). She *really* wanted to know how I felt about that after she told me. I was really pretty chill about her still being technically married, because she assured me that they were, for all intents and purposes, divorced. And they are; there's no romantic vibe there, just a weird codependent friendship/family vibe (they started dating when she was 19, he's a few years older, and she's 34 now, so that's not super unusual to see after such a long time). I figured that as things got more serious between her and I, and as we got closer to me moving there, that she would take the initiative to work things out with him. She didn't.

She was unhappy in the marriage for various reasons, tried to work it out (counseling, moving out of their city to the suburbs, job changes, life changes), nothing worked, she cheated (keeps that secret to this day), moved out, started a relationship with the guy she cheated with, that didn't work out for pretty valid reasons (he was a financial drain and irresponsible), she dated around, stuck with one guy for around a year maybe until THAT didn't work out (he was a real weirdo apparently, but she liked his friends), then she dated some more and met me. She says that she knows that if it wasn't for their daughter she and her ex-husband wouldn't be friends, and that she's been scared to rock the boat with him until just recently (when it's gotten too painful NOT to) because she was nervous about a custody battle (although even I know he wouldn't do that). He's fairly abrasive, but a very committed dad (I've worked with kids in the past and met some terrible dads - he is not one of them), he's "always right", not very sensitive to HER sensitivity, and he is oddly okay with being single. I sort of can't blame him - he's got his daughter, he runs a business, his ex-wife is essentially one of his best friends and bends over backwards to make their relationship pass for functional, he has tons of friends, plays in a band in his spare time, etc.

When we wrote grief letters/love letters to each other a few months ago a lot of mine focused on her being unavailable because of her ex-husband, and pointing out the blatant and obvious dysfunction in their relationship. She wanted ME to reach out to HIM, because that was their arrangement. And she didn't want to facilitate that, which is bizarre. I made the metaphor: "Say I wanted you to meet my parents and have a relationship with them and get along with them and know them and that that was important to me ... .that's totally reasonable! But if I said that and then said 'Here's their phone numbers, and they're on Facebook, how about you go and make that happen?', that would be insane!" That's pretty much exactly what she expected me to do with her ex-husband. She did once try to arrange for us to all have dinner and a talk together, but he backed out at the last minute, and she called me up crying and told me about it, and I was reassuring, and nothing came of it. Any time I spent with him was pretty incidental - at her birthday two summers ago, getting a ride to or from somewhere when it was mutually convenient, that sort of thing.

She says that she's doing therapy work about him: about not being care-taking of him, about being less triggered and defensive about his little comments about her life, and about taking proactive steps to start distancing herself from him into a more independent place where she can make decisions for herself (OR with him) that she doesn't internalize as being reliant on his approval.

In a way I feel like she's taken my critique to heart, and that's good. I really could give her time and space to go through that process, if it felt like that was getting US somewhere. And besides, you DO NOT HAVE TO DITCH YOUR RELATIONSHIPS TO DO YOUR THERAPY WORK. I can't emphasize my belief in that enough.

[MapleBob]

Now that you have stabilized things a bit and are laying low, its probably a good time to take this apart and examine the pieces. You may need to retool how you are looking at this.

Also: any suggestions as to how to do that?

[Skip]

That's a hugely significant back story.  Hopefully others will join in this conversation.

It goes without saying that any women who is going through a divorce and with custody at stake, there is going to be high levels of stress. pwBPD traits tend not to do well in stressful situations.  With a "high school sweetheart" for a husband, they are as close to being blood relatives as one can be - they grew up together.

There is also the consideration that you were the extramarital partner and, if you read about this, these relationships are often supplemental. A comparison is often made to a three-legged stool, with the affair partner supply the third leg not provided for by the husband.  Once the husband is out, the need for a romantic partner can change.

And this is a long distance relationship, which also tend to be partial in character - neither of you have to deal with each other on a day to day basis - they time together is more like vacation time or honeymoon time.  People who get into LDR often do so because they do not need or want or do well with a full-time partner (even subconsciously).

When someone is dismantling one relationship, it is often hard to thing in terms of assembling another one at the same time.

This is a lot of stuff to work through bob. I only share it to paint the larger landscape so you can start sorting through all of this.

She could be consumed beyond has capacity... .your demands, right now, could be the straw that breaks the camels back.

I don't know her, obviously, but does any of this sound right to you?

[flourdust]

I'm sorry, Bob. When I look at this story, I don't see the seeds for a future relationship. I see a relationship that ended, and a man who is clinging to any hope that it might start up again. She may be giving some mixed signals with language, but her actions are completely unambiguous. She's not willing to take any physical step (or let you take one) that would put you two back together in any way.

[MapleBob]

That's a hugely significant back story.  Hopefully others will join in this conversation. ... .

This is a lot of stuff to work through bob. I only share it to paint the larger landscape so you can start sorting through all of this.

She could be consumed beyond has capacity... .your demands, right now, could be the straw that breaks the camels back.

I don't know her, obviously, but does any of this sound right to you?

Yes, I think that some of that sounds right to me. I don't know about the third-wheel thing, though. That didn't feel like the dynamic to me. She was as frustrated as I was with having to negotiate our relationship involving him, she just didn't do anything about it. She wanted the whole shebang with me, I know that for sure - desperately, at times. But she was scared of the changes it would have meant. And sure, she may be better off getting through that transition before she adds someone else to the mix, I can see that. Unfortunately I'm here now.  

She has told me a few times that she thinks that, after leaving her ex-husband, she has subconsciously chosen serious romantic partners who all come with some kind of "romantic obstacle" that they have to overcome to be with her. Mine was being fairly far away, in another country. ":)o you love me enough to make this work? Please love me enough to make this work!" was absolutely the test that I was up against. So yes, that allows her to not rock the boat and not fully commit and let's her maintain certain exits. I think that the bulk of that probably has to do with her BPD traits, but at least some of it probably has to do with avoiding having to actively change the dynamic with her ex-husband. I think she's broken denial about what a messed-up situation she has on her hands, and I empathize. That's hard stuff, and I've been through it too. Again, unfortunately: I'm here now.

I don't know what her capacity is, but it's pretty low. I just want to make it easier on both of us, and figure out how to balance this imbalance without us losing each other.

Oh, and I don't think that custody is really at stake. They both love the custody arrangement that they currently have, and he just wouldn't do that. She knows that, deep down. But sure, that fear comes up for her, and it's real, even if it is irrational.

[MapleBob]

I'm sorry, Bob. When I look at this story, I don't see the seeds for a future relationship. I see a relationship that ended, and a man who is clinging to any hope that it might start up again. She may be giving some mixed signals with language, but her actions are completely unambiguous. She's not willing to take any physical step (or let you take one) that would put you two back together in any way.

That might be very true, and I certainly think about that a lot. She somehow always stops me from walking away, and I stop her from walking away. I don't know what we're doing anymore; it's very confusing for both of us. The reality check is very welcome, though. I need to hear that stuff too.

Anybody else agree with flourdust?

[flourdust]

That might be very true, and I certainly think about that a lot. She somehow always stops me from walking away, and I stop her from walking away. I don't know what we're doing anymore; it's very confusing for both of us.

I can hear that. Someone on the outside of my relationship would tell me to just pull the plug and get divorced now, stat, immediately. I can't logically tell them they'd be wrong.

There's an unattributed quote that I remind myself of often: "People don't fear change. They fear loss."

Even when we stand to gain more than we lose ... .we are still going to have to lose first.

[Sunfl0wer]

What stands out to me:

She was as frustrated as I was with having to negotiate our relationship involving him, she just didn't do anything about it.

If a persons words and behaviors are not in sync... .

Listen to what the behavior is telling you.

Don't minimize it.

Believe it.

[MapleBob]

That might be very true, and I certainly think about that a lot. She somehow always stops me from walking away, and I stop her from walking away. I don't know what we're doing anymore; it's very confusing for both of us.

I can hear that. Someone on the outside of my relationship would tell me to just pull the plug and get divorced now, stat, immediately. I can't logically tell them they'd be wrong.

There's an unattributed quote that I remind myself of often: "People don't fear change. They fear loss."

Even when we stand to gain more than we lose ... .we are still going to have to lose first.

I may have an issue of my own here as well. My breakup with my first serious girlfriend (*my* high school sweetheart, who I was with for 8-ish years) was very similar to this. Drawn out, limbo, rollercoaster-y, confusing ... .and when I finally let her go, she came back a year later and tried to reconcile, after doing a bunch of therapy work! I turned her down, when only a year before I would have *killed* to have her back. So I've been through this before.

[MapleBob]

What stands out to me:

She was as frustrated as I was with having to negotiate our relationship involving him, she just didn't do anything about it.

If a persons words and behaviors are not in sync... .

Listen to what the behavior is telling you.

Don't minimize it.

Believe it.

"I'm not willing to make this work, can you? Because I really want you to, and then it'll be your fault instead of mine if you can't, and I won't have to change anything either way." ?

That sounds to me like childish, disordered behavior, not necessarily a contradiction in logic. And that is what SHE has taken to heart - that that way doesn't work. So she's fixing it for herself, and that's great.

[MapleBob]

That might be very true, and I certainly think about that a lot. She somehow always stops me from walking away, and I stop her from walking away. I don't know what we're doing anymore; it's very confusing for both of us.

I can hear that. Someone on the outside of my relationship would tell me to just pull the plug and get divorced now, stat, immediately. I can't logically tell them they'd be wrong.

Why don't you, by the way? If you don't mind me asking... .