Am I separated in my own home?

[flourdust]

The latest update on my story is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286389.0

It's an exciting ride, involving a late night escape to a hotel, police breaking up a fight, and other fun twists and turns!

For the past few weeks, I've been keeping my distance from my wife. We agreed we could use some space, so I took the initiative to move up to the guest bedroom. I was already used to spending the night there when she would kick me out of our bedroom or I kicked myself out to escape a late-night dysregulation. Sleep has been much more peaceful for me now -- the room is a quiet sanctuary.

I had been afraid of my bedroom. I would delay going to to bed for fear of what she might do. I'd be relieved if she was asleep when I came in. If she wasn't, I'd be really cautious, because she could be seething with anger and ready to pick up an argument or she might start one by asking me a loaded question. Even if she was in a good mood, her sleep hygiene has degraded and she stays up past midnight watching endless repeats of Law & Order or Chopped, which made it hard for me to get to sleep. So I'm really enjoying having the guest room.

I'm being polite and friendly to my wife, but not very affectionate. There hasn't really been any opportunity (from my perspective) for affection because she's been ready to argue/blame/criticize/rant at the drop of a hat. Most of our interactions turn into her negativity within a minute. The same has been true of texting.

I've been able to pull together a few friendly family evenings, but they were touch and go, and I was prepared to go ahead without her. I have learned to treat her dysregulations as a toddler's tantrums. I can't make her stop them, but I won't let them derail my plans.

We also had an MC session, where we talked about all of the major events of the last few weeks. She also said that we should separate or get divorced during the session. This came out during a monologue of complaints and she didn't bring it up again. I asked that we have separate sessions with the MC before meeting again, so he could find out about each of our goals and perspectives and see if there was a mutually agreeable path forward.

So, that's where we stand now. We're sort-of-separated in our own home. I know not to expect my wife to take any action to try to improve the relationship (well, not any action that I would recognize -- she may think that threatening me and insulting me are valid demonstrations of affection). Should I take some steps? I've been thinking I'm not really interested in getting closer to her when she's hostile every time we interact, so it seems to be a stalemate.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[flourdust]

Just giving this a little bump.

TL:)R version -- My wife and I are in separate bedrooms. Most interactions end quickly because she's quickly irritated or angry with me. Should I do something to try to reconcile or ride this out?

[flourdust]

And my wife served up a fresh example this evening.

I got home about 15 minutes later than I often do. Traffic was a little rough because it was raining.

We had exchanged a few texts during the day. Mostly civil. She complained about a big headache and having to drive in the rain.

So I started to role-play how I would greet her when I got home. I imagined that I would ask her how her headache was. Or I'd say hello, then ask her -- but sometimes she gets upset that I've said two things at once without giving her a chance to respond. Or I could say hello, then pause ... .but then she might go off on me for not asking about her headache. Yeah, so I was gaming that whole thing out, wondering if I'd get to execute "Hello-how-is-your-headache" without triggering dysregulation.

As it happened, she had a curve ball ready to throw at me. Here's how it went down. I walked in.

W: You frightened us by not being home at 5:30.

Me: Traffic was bad.

W: <gets angry> Are you saying you're fine? I said YOU FRIGHTENED US. 

Me: Do I need to apologize for that?

W: THAT was rude. You'd better walk away from us.



This is a typical conversation. I don't even know how I would try to reconcile with that, or even if I should bother trying.

[RaisenCane]

Flourdust,

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I'm going through the same thing for the 2nd time this year. She sleeps upstairs and I sleep in the master. I don't have to deal with the raging that you do, in fact, we really don't speak at all unless it's about the kids schedule but I want a better marriage just at a total loss of how to get there. If we do have discussions about anything, we both get very frustrated and angry and they don't end well either.

[formflier]

  Flourdust, Instead of role playing, go over the principles in your head.  Avoid JADE.  Validate her emotions  Things like that.  Look at your interaction from that point of view and let me know what you could have done differently.          

FF

[babyducks]

hi flourdust,

it sounds as if your W is not returning to emotional baseline between events/arguments with you.   as you might know pwBPD have a very slow return to baseline.   I thought I had an appreciation for this and boy was I wrong.  however long I think is a 'long return to baseline' I should basically just triple it.

another member here livenlearned said this the other day in a different thread:

Slow return to baseline means emotional reactions last a long time, and can get continually reactivated long after the stimulus is gone. If the environment is invalidating, or if there are comorbid issues (like drinking), this can complicate a return to baseline. We can often take these things personally, and react, and this can feed their loop.

it appears that perhaps something is feeding her loop.  she certainly appears caught in one.   and by extension you.

As it happened, she had a curve ball ready to throw at me. Here's how it went down. I walked in.

W: You frightened us by not being home at 5:30.

Me: Traffic was bad.

Responding with 'traffic was bad' was a perfectly natural thing to say.  a normal explanation.   and for a nondisordered person it would have been a fine comment.   Your wife is dealing with harmfully intense emotions and her concern here is her being frightened.   By saying traffic was bad she felt dismissed, invalidated, as if her fear didn't matter and her boiling emotions are being ignored.  I'm not saying you did or said anything wrong.   You and your wife are having two very different conversations.   You are talking about your ride home, she is (still) very emotionally reactive and flailing in the water.

W: <gets angry> Are you saying you're fine? I said YOU FRIGHTENED US. 

Me: Do I need to apologize for that?

W: THAT was rude. You'd better walk away from us.

I had to smile at the 'are you saying you're fine' not that it's funny.   In the world of feelings equal facts,  that looks like  "I'm so frightened you have to be / must be dead in a ditch, how dare you not be?"    And again you two are having two different conversations.   You are baffled by the logic or lack there of and she is frustrated because you won't respond to what  is clear to her.

exchanges like this are keeping her in her highly reactive loop.  again not your fault, it's the typical way the disorder plays out.   

what do you think?   does this make sense?   fit with what you are seeing ?

'ducks

[flourdust]

hi flourdust,

it sounds as if your W is not returning to emotional baseline between events/arguments with you.   as you might know pwBPD have a very slow return to baseline.   I thought I had an appreciation for this and boy was I wrong.  however long I think is a 'long return to baseline' I should basically just triple it.

You know, I think this is exactly right. I even said something like this to our MC last week. We had agreed to a rule that I would take a break/walk away when things got too hot, but I would return after an interval to resume the discussion. I told him that I had tried it using different intervals, and the problem was that my wife's cooling down period wasn't measured in minutes or hours but in days.

I think that if the BPD thought process could be understood, then they wouldn't be disordered! My speculation is that there are more layers here.

A conversation with a non-disordered person might have gone like this:

W: You frightened us We were worried when you weren't home at 5:30.

Me: Traffic was bad.

W: Well, I'm glad you made it home OK.

The mood disorder is visible in the first few words -- "frightened" instead of "worried" over a very brief delay. My explanation ("traffic" shows that it wasn't an intentional action on my part. She closes the topic.

Here's what I think might have been going on with my wife:

W: You frightened us by not being home at 5:30. (Our daughter asked where you were. Her concern made me anxious, and I've been letting that emotion build in my head for the last ten minutes without relief. Now that you're here, I'm going to relieve the pressure by letting it out at you.)

Me: Traffic was bad. (I didn't pick up on the key word "frightened." I was caught off-balance. I responded normally.)

W: <gets angry> Are you saying you're fine? I said YOU FRIGHTENED US.  (I'm not frightened now. You haven't taken away my anxiety. I'm angry at you because I'm still anxious, plus I've been angry at you for days for umpteen other reasons. FEEL MY ANGER!)

Me: Do I need to apologize for that? (This was said in bafflement, but she heard it as sarcasm. Everything is going through the BPD filter now that processes everything I say as devaluing or an attack. We are already past the point of no return, and I'm still waking up to what's happening.)

I think the key here -- which you picked up on -- is that the underlying anger is poisoning all interactions. She is already triggered and semi-dysregulated before I even enter the room. The specifics of the conversation don't really matter that much, and trying to validate, apologize, or whatever wouldn't really make a difference. If it wasn't THAT sentence that set her off, it would be the next one. Or the one after that. As long as she's off baseline, I can't take any useful action to address the surface triggers.

And I think you're also right that this anger loop is being fed continuously -- from her own thoughts, from her sense of abandonment because I am keeping my distance from her, from run-of-the-mill daily interactions where she flares up emotionally, from conversations about me and her problems with her friends and therapists.

Of course, all of this seems like a plausible cause and effect relationship to me, which is of great comfort to someone who can think logically. This is when I need to remind myself of what I wrote above: I think that if the BPD thought process could be understood, then they wouldn't be disordered!

So let's take all this post hoc reasoning with a giant grain of salt.

[formflier]

  Flourdust, You are most likely very much like me.  Let's get to the facts, get it all out on the table.  That is normal to me.  To have long term staying success, you are going to have to change what is "normal" to you.  Your wife speaks,   (slow things down and consider the emotion), address the emotion, then speak "normally".  I'll also say that as part of my personal growth, I needed to be more aware of and address emotions of others much sooner.    In other words my change was not all about my wife.  Point of clarity:  Even if you do this, it doesn't "fix" your wife.  Dealing with emotions helps bring the temperature down to a tolerable level.  Then you can make more informed choices about what can be ignored (let her solve her own problems) and what needs to be addressed.          

FF

[byfaith]

the conversation between Flourdust and Babyducks concerning returning to baseline was very enlightening... .thank you.

I am struggling to become the type of person that can analyze an exchange quick enough to head certain things off. I feel like I have to "figure out" what to do and say. I'm trying though. I seem to find myself looking back and saying "well I could have said this or done that"   

[formflier]

  byfaith, Instead of analyzing quicker, keep your analytical speed the same.    Slow the conversation down.  If your pwBPD doesn't like it, let them not like it.  It's not a race.    Don't get caught up in trying to beat them at their own game (the quick conversation thing).    Learn the rules here, stick to them, slow things down, ignore your pwBPDs reaction to all this.  Eventually they will calm.          

FF

[Icthelight]

Your wife speaks,  (slow things down and consider the emotion), address the emotion, then speak "normally".

  Yes, this.

My wife was in a prolonged dysregulation cycle (sorry, don't remember the correct BPD lingo). She painted me black, there were extinction bursts when I tried to enforce my boundaries and she was mean, distant and really angry. I did not know what to do. I tried to engage her, to talk to her to try to reconcile, but nothing was working. For the most part throughout this, I was keeping my distance from her, speaking to her only when it was necessary and guarding my emotions and feelings. All of this was making things worse and came across as abandonment and as cold hearted to my wife.

In the last 2-3 weeks, I have slowed things down and am really trying to understand what my wife is saying. There have been a few times where my instant response would've been to answer her question directly (as you did about the traffic). However, I've slowed it down and have tried to understand her feelings and emotions. I nailed it a couple of times and she later commented that she really felt heard and supported by me. I'm telling you, this year has been one of the roughest periods in our marriage. I was so desperate during this time that I told her we were done (huge mistake). She kept pressing me, insisting that I tell her we were done, "JUST SAY IT!. So I did.

In addition to slowing things down and trying to address the emotion, I have really made an effort to "be present (her words)" when she talks to me. I read somewhere that when speaking to Bill Clinton he makes people feel like they are the most important person in the world. I am trying to make my wife feel that way. Eye contact, acknowledgment, validating and in our world, no JADEing. Even though she is not always the nicest, I am being nice and respectful and remove myself politely when I am uncomfortable.

It's trial and error and I'm trying to learn what works and what doesn't. And, I understand that even if something works today, it may not work tomorrow. My goal is to not overreact and don't dysregulate myself 

Although my wife said that me saying we were done was a huge dagger for her, she is responding positively and appears to be out of the dysregulation cycle that she was in for the last two months. She is once again being affectionate with me and we're currently getting along. I don't want to let my guard down and don't want to relax and start to behave in an invalidating way towards my wife. I realize that I'm guilty of that so I am continuing to read and visit this board.

Doing the things I am currently doing is not that much work, especially when you're getting along with your SO. I've read so many times on this board that validating is so much easier when someone is not angry or raging. So true. My wife has said that heart felt hugs do wonders for her. She wants a few of them every day. Well, guess what? I'm hugging her and she's responding.

I have been where you are right now and I feel for you. You are probably hurt, angry and resentful, it is completely understandable. However, know that you're not alone. We're here to support you and encourage you. Remember, we're running a marathon, not a race. Baby steps, start with the small things, but above all, be nice, be gentle, but be firm. No need for threats, just enforce your boundaries without being mean. Hang in there.

[flourdust]

What you guys are saying feels reasonable. I need to do less mental role-playing and more reminding myself in the moment to slow down and listen for the feelings.

Of course, my wife is a very rapid talker, and she tends to jump on me for not answering her instantly when she throws out one of her hostile statements. Still, it's a good habit for me to learn, even if the short-term effect is that she gets angry at me for saying nothing.  

[Icthelight]

Of course, my wife is a very rapid talker, and she tends to jump on me for not answering her instantly when she throws out one of her hostile statements.

Mine too She has actually complained to me that she wants me to try to match her level of excitement and speed. I just validated her statement and said, "Sounds like I really frustrate you by responding so slowly." She said yes, and went on to explain why, etc. etc. That seemed to calm her down which gave me the opportunity to say, "if I matched you're level of excitement and speed, I would be out of control. You know how I get when I'm out of control, I'm not pleasant." She said, yes, I know.

She recently was able to joke about this and tried to show me how she feels by using the new Disney movie trailer, Zootopia as an example. She said she feels like the rabbit with me being the Sloth. Normally, I would be insulted. However, I actually thought it was funny. You should watch it, I think you'll be able to relate.

[babyducks]

Hi flourdust,

I noticed you said "I think if the BPD thought process could be understood they wouldn't be disordered. "

Interesting.    There is order in the disorder, a real discernable pattern.   I think that is why so many of our stories are so alike.   Understanding the thought pattern doesn't change it.  I equate it with being left handed or right handed.  Intellectually I can understand why I automatically reach for something with my right hand.    Changing it is entirely different.

My two cents say you nailed exactly what was going on with your wife during the stuck in traffic conversation.

I think you are right she is probably triggered before you walk in the door.

I also happen to think there still is useful action to be taken to address surface triggers.    I kind of think practicing on the surface triggers is a little easier.    Bringing the emotional temperature in the room down is a step in the right direction.

[formflier]

 I need to do less mental role-playing and more reminding myself in the moment to slow down and listen for the feelings.    

         Focus on the forest, not trying to rapidly figure out which tree to cut down, There are various analogies to use.  Perhaps another way.   The order of things really matters.  When trying to communicate to a pwBPD  1.  Deal with emotion 2.  Deal with substance  If you reverse the order it is unlikely they will hear you.  In this order they have a chance.  Maybe a better way is to deal with emotion, check their emotional temperature, and if they are ok, deal with substance.          

FF