It takes two to tango

[blackbirdsong]

Note: Boy, I think I will make angry a lot of people here by writing this post, but it came to me like an epiphany few hours ago. I also read some BPD forums, where BPD persons write their own experiences. Maybe that messed up my mind.  

Ok, the general idea here is that most of the people that are members of this (great) community think that they are the victims of their previous BPD partners. Who wouldn't think of that?

Just read those topics:

- Destroyed relationships after so many sacrifice

- Crazy behavior (drinking, cheating, lying, manipulation)

- Emotional abuse

- Passive aggression

- You name it... .

So you have every right to be called "a victim".

BUT... .



What about them?

Are they also victims of our own behavior? Now you will say to me: "What behavior? I gave every atom of myself in that relationship! And she/he still did all those nasty things"

But, let's face it. We were also emotionally unstable in those relationships. When you read all our topics, you can see that we also didn't love ourselves. We shove codependency issues, NPD elements, savior complex etc.

We also need to understand that we triggered their behavior by our own emotional issues. Not that we are guilty for their behavior!

In short: It takes two to tango... .

So, I believe the best is to separate. Instead of doing this "I am the only victim", we need to work on our issues... .Love our inner self.

[kyon147]

I agree it does take two people and that all of us have our own faults but I do also believe that its more one sided with pwBPD.

Some of us at the start of the relationships were healthy non-dependant people and being in a relationship with someone with BPD or NPD and all between it breaks you down over time, changing you for the worst.

So to say it takes two is very true but a lot of the time they make you that second person through the situation rather than just also being in the wrong.

This can be seen clearly by people saying how our exBPD r/s had a similar pattern with their ex's and their future ones after us. As with us, we move on, move forward eventually and you don't see many come back to this forum. We are in a loop like a rollercoaster but it does leave that loop eventually. pwBPD however their cycle hardly ever ends.

I do think all of us here think we could of done things better but I don't think blaming yourself for who they are helps you heal. Yes we can all be better people but not for the r/s that was broken before it began.

[blackbirdsong]

Some of us at the start of the relationships were healthy non-dependant people and being in a relationship with someone with BPD or NPD and all between it breaks you down over time, changing you for the worst.

I don't know, but I disagree with this. I believe you cannot be emotionally stable person and enter a relationship with BPD person.

[Beach_Babe]

Yes and no. While I agree some (but not all) nons were a bit messed up to begin with, in no way does this mean we deserved the verbal, physical, emotional and financial abuse inflicted by these cretins. Nor did we deserve involvement via outside agencies (i.e: police, lawyers), infidelity, social shunning or character assassination. The cruelty was bone chilling, and no one deserves that.

[Mutt]

So, I believe the best is to separate. Instead of doing this "I am the only victim", we need to work on our issues... .Love our inner self.

Good point.

www.cbwhit.com/Victim-to-survivor.htm

[blackbirdsong]

Yes and no. While I agree some (but not all) nons were a bit messed up to begin with, in no way does this mean we deserved the verbal, physical, emotional and financial abuse inflicted by these people. Nor did we deserve involvement via outside agencies (i.e: police, laywers), infidelity, social shunning or character assassination. The cruelty was bone chilling, and no one deserves that.

Sorry, but I didn't said that we deserve this.

[Mr Hollande]

I agree that both parties have a stake in the blame. I've recently noticed a more senior member here suggest what appears to be that all of it is on the non, which baffles me. Maybe due to having spent too much time here, who knows? Either way, the "two to tango" verdict seems the correct one to me.

[burritoman]

Sure, it takes two to tango, but I did everything I could to please that girl, and up until the end I was always trying to keep her positive and fulfilled, even when it became tougher and tougher to juggle my life and hers. Was always positive and encouraging, and there for her when life got rough. In the end her needs won and she left. I believe that with textbook cases the best you could have done was delayed the inevitable, and by that point your ego and self worth would have been whittled down to nothing more than a shell of yourself before meeting them. If they don't recognize their problem and try to treat it your relationship will follow the same predictable trajectory, and in that case I don't think we're to blame.

[hopealways]

Completely disagree: the non's behavior is not harmful to the BPD, but the BPDs behavior is harmful to the non. That is what you are forgetting. So the it takes two to tango remark does not apply in a BPD relationship.  And yes we were victims of an abusive traumatic relationship.  The BPDs were not.

[Joem678]

You are correct.  But this is the scenario.  You end up with two screwed up individuals because of one mental disorder.  I came here to find the answers to all the questions I have come across for two decades.  I did see my wife as a victim and the only victim but that was a big mistake.  No one is a victim here, but the disorder does cause them to portray themselves as a victim.  It's part of it. 

There is no more gratification as a parent when your kids start to see the disorder itself and the healing process in the non. 

It does take two to tango, but as I was trying to tango with her she was to busy doing the cha-cha!

[Mutt]

Completely disagree: the non's behavior is not harmful to the BPD, but the BPDs behavior is harmful to the non. That is what you are forgetting. So the it takes two to tango remark does not apply in a BPD relationship.  And yes we were victims of an abusive traumatic relationship.  The BPDs were not.

I agree that these relationships are tough and the black and white thinking is destructive.

I do believe that it takes two to tango and one to stop the conflict. I would argue with my ex wife when she had borderline rages and if we hold the position of persecutor for too long a pwBPD will emotionally collapse. I felt so angry and resentful and it was so much negative energy.

I really don't like conflict but the way that I spoke to her was invalidating and I had to be right all of the time. She taught me how huge validation is, to validate the valid and not the invalid, I may not agree with her perspective but she does have valid things to say. It's not my fault that she's unstable at times or that she's in a dysfunctional coping mode but I could have stepped out of the house instead of engaging her. I now have boundaries on myself that I won't JADE when she is baiting or unstable and validate the valid.

On the topic of victims the thought of being a victim never crossed my mind and I say that because not everyone necessarily thinks or feels the same way. I always thought that I was a survivor and all I wanted to know was what was wrong with my wife and the truth. Someone could call me a victim but it doesn't necessarily mean that opinion defines who I am.

I think that's what blackbirdsong point is that we don't have to cast all of the blame on our partners and separate. When we relate with someone often it becomes a relationship, relationships give us realistic feedback about ourselves with what we put out there.

[blackbirdsong]

I think that's what blackbirdsong point is that we don't have to cast all of the blame on our partners and separate. When we relate with someone often it becomes a relationship, relationships give us realistic feedback about ourselves with what we put out there.

Well, my opinion is that we need to separate from them. Because it is unhealthy relationship. But, I agree with you (or you with me :D) that we shouldn't blame only them for this unhealthy relationship because we were also emotionally unstable. And probably, by projecting this emotionally unstable behavior, we triggered faster/more/harder their BPD behavior.

Not that we are responsible for their BPD behavior, cheating, lying, manipulations etc! Some of you constantly misquote me about this. Whatever we did, no healthy person won't do that. But we (we "the only victims" + BPDs) represent magical connection that makes hell of our relationships.  

Sorry, but you cannot convince me now that you allowed your BPD partner to do all these things to you for 5,10,15 years and call yourself emotionally stable person. I am just not buying that.

Hell, I were only 3 months in relationship with my exGF, but considering the fact that I thought I loved her, that she loved me,  and the fact how we connected, and how bad I felt to let her go -> I definitely think I have issues that I have to work on.

[Mr Hollande]

You end up with two screwed up individuals because of one mental disorder.

Apologies if I split from the topic but this reminded me of an interview I saw with Jonathan Davis from Korn. He said that his bodyguard was a healthy person when he started working for him but a few years later he had taken on many of Davis' traits. He had become ill just by being close to Davis for an extended period of time. Davis' words confirm what people say about mental illness being contagious. Sent shivers down my spine.

[blackbirdsong]

You end up with two screwed up individuals because of one mental disorder.

Apologies if I split from the topic but this reminded me of an interview I saw with Jonathan Davis from Korn. He said that his bodyguard was a healthy person when he started working for him but a few years later he had taken on many of Davis' traits. He had become ill just by being close to Davis for an extended period of time. Davis' words confirm what people say about mental illness being contagious. Sent shivers down my spine.

Again, I believe this guy definitely didn't have solid emotional foundations at the first place. Emotionally healthy person will recognize this behavior, and won't allow that mental disorder influences him. This guy could say: "F*** this, I will fork for minimal wage for someone who is normal and won't hurt me. But I won't allow this to myself."

[apollotech]

Some of us at the start of the relationships were healthy non-dependant people and being in a relationship with someone with BPD or NPD and all between it breaks you down over time, changing you for the worst.

I don't know, but I disagree with this. I believe you cannot be emotionally stable person and enter a relationship with BPD person.

What about the Non's who walked away from these relationships fairly quickly, after getting a taste of what the reality of the situation was going to be? Not everyone that entered into a relationship with a person suffering from BPD was emotionally challenged and/or had self-esteem/self-worth issues. (I agree that some Non's do have their own issues to address, CoD being fairly common, but not all of the Non's.) What about the people on the Staying Board who clearly know what they're into and understand the challenges, but have chosen to stay? Do they all have emotional/self-esteem issues? If you read on that board, I think you'll find that that's not the case. People of all types enter relationships of many kinds, with many different kinds of people, for many different reasons.

A pwBPD being the victim of their disorder, I couldn't agree more. Afflicted with BPD entails all the pain and punishment of the disorder. In the end, usually, they lose the very people that cared for them the most. That, in itself, is a terrible liability in life, excluding all of the other hardships BPD presents.

[blackbirdsong]

What about the Non's who walked away from these relationships fairly quickly, after getting a taste of what the reality of the situation was going to be? Not everyone that entered into a relationship with a person suffering from BPD was emotionally challenged and/or had self-esteem/self-worth issues. (I agree that some Non's do have their own issues to address, CoD being fairly common, but not all of the Non's.) What about the people on the Staying Board who clearly know what they're into and understand the challenges, but have chosen to stay? Do they all have emotional/self-esteem issues? If you read on that board, I think you'll find that that's not the case. People of all types enter relationships of many kinds, with many different kinds of people, for many different reasons.

A pwBPD being the victim of their disorder, I couldn't agree more. Afflicted with BPD entails all the pain and punishment of the disorder. In the end, usually, they lose the very people that cared for them the most. That, in itself, is a terrible liability in life, excluding all of the other hardships BPD presents.

I broke up after 3 months. That was fairly quickly, can you agree? But it is not the point how soon you leave but how you leave, in general. I am talking about persons who think that they are in love with BPDs, and that BPDs love them. I am saying that they are not emotionally stable persons. That is my opinion, of course, we can disagree... .

Because of all these things, because it was hard to me to leave, because it is still hard to me, I think I am emotionally unstable person that needs to work on my codependency issues, NPD elements etc.

[apollotech]

And probably, by projecting this emotionally unstable behavior, we triggered faster/more/harder their BPD behavior.

I wholly disagree with this. The disorder is the problem, not the Non. There are countless examples of a pwBPD repeating the same behavior(s) over and over again with numerous, different individuals. The Non becomes a trigger because the pwBPD became emotionally attached to/emotionally intimate with them. One hallmark characteristic of the disorder is chaotic interpersonal relationships for the pwBPD, not meeting ppl who cause chaotic interpersonal relationships.

[blackbirdsong]

And probably, by projecting this emotionally unstable behavior, we triggered faster/more/harder their BPD behavior.

I wholly disagree with this. The disorder is the problem, not the Non. There are countless examples of a pwBPD repeating the same behavior(s) over and over again with numerous, different individuals. The Non becomes a trigger because the pwBPD became emotionally attached to/emotionally intimate with them. One hallmark characteristic of the disorder is chaotic interpersonal relationships for the pwBPD, not meeting ppl who cause chaotic interpersonal relationships.

Yes, I agree that BPD is the problem. Completely agree.

But you are referring to the other partners as Nons.

But I think we need new name for some of those partners, we need to divide them in two groups:

a) Nons without issues: Emotionally stable people, who recognize BPD behavior, don't involve too much/deeply in relationship and leave soon without many consequences for their emotional health

b) Nons with issues, people that fall in love with BPDs, adore unhealthy idealization phase of the relationship and feel broken after the relationship ends

In relationship with Nons with issues, BPD is not the only problem, because they also brought issues into the relationship

[Joem678]

Blackbirdsone,

The order was not consistent. I got involved with her as a teenager.  It fully manifested into her 30s. If I was thirty and met her yes I would have moved on. That is the issue she is facing.  There are also 200+ manifestations of BPD and there are types.  It's not like you go into it an see the same characteristic right away.  

Sorry but my relationship was not 3 months.  It was a long complex one.

[Kelli Cornett]

Of course that will make a lot of people on here mad. Many people on here are extremely NPD and totally unaware of it.

[AwakenedOne]

Blackbirdsong, Do you consider that your BPD ex is a victim of you?

[blackbirdsong]

Blackbirdsong, Do you consider that your BPD ex is a victim of you?

It is very complex question but I would say NO.

Because now I don't consider myself as a victim, also. It is not like she ambushed me in an ally and raped me. Every second I had a choice to leave, to realize that this is unhealthy for me. But I didn't, because of my issues.  

We need to realize that healthy people are not helpless, they have inner mechanism that helps them to see what is wrong and what is good for them. I didn't have that during my "love phase". Now I am working on this.

We are all victims only how much we let them to hurt us. Yes, she did emotionally abuse me, but why didn't I leave when I realized that. Why didn't I realize that she is abusing me? Even, when I did, why did I tolerate this? Why did I fall in love in this person?

Because of my issues, not because of BPD, ladies and gentlemen (:imagining that I am presenting my final word in front of the jury: :D).

[hopealways]

And probably, by projecting this emotionally unstable behavior, we triggered faster/more/harder their BPD behavior.

I wholly disagree with this. The disorder is the problem, not the Non. There are countless examples of a pwBPD repeating the same behavior(s) over and over again with numerous, different individuals. The Non becomes a trigger because the pwBPD became emotionally attached to/emotionally intimate with them. One hallmark characteristic of the disorder is chaotic interpersonal relationships for the pwBPD, not meeting ppl who cause chaotic interpersonal relationships.

AMEN Apollotech!

[Moselle]

It does take two to tango, but as I was trying to tango with her she was to busy doing the cha-cha!

Lol. This describes a BPD relationship perfectly. We tangled up to do the Tango. It looked, smelled, acted like a Tango. And it even felt like Tango at first. We stepped on toes a bit and it felt awkward at times but in our minds Tango's aren't perfect and the Tango can be FIXED right? Wrong. Not when one is actually doing the cha-cha

[apollotech]

a) Nons without issues: Emotionally stable people, who recognize BPD behavior, don't involve too much/deeply in relationship and leave soon without many consequences for their emotional health

b) Nons with issues, people that fall in love with BPDs, adore unhealthy idealization phase of the relationship and feel broken after the relationship ends

Again, emotionally stable people can get involved with emotionally unstable people, for many different reasons. Some of them choose to stay in unhealthy relationships. Also, I have never heard of/read of an example where the nastiest parts of BPD were in the very beginning of the relationship, devaluation never occurs before idealization. Emotional attachments are formed before devaluation occurs. Idealization only becomes unhealthy when the relationship is not allowed to mature out of it and progress into something much more substantial and deeper. (Idealization does have a courtship biological function in any relationship.) With a pwBPD, engulfment steps in instead, then the wheels fall off. Again, these are all characteristics of the disorder, not the Non, of any flavor.

blackbirdsong, kudos to you for recognizing issues within yourself that need to be addressed. That may be the blessing in disguise from your relationship.

[Beach_Babe]

We weren't the "only" ones  though. There were probably many. How do you think you triggered yours blackbirdsong?

[blackbirdsong]

Again, emotionally stable people can get involved with emotionally unstable people, for many different reasons. Some of them choose to stay in unhealthy relationships.

I still disagree, can you give me some short example?

I agree that stable characters can be attracted by unstable person, but they can't fall in love with this person.

Also, I have never heard of/read of an example where the nastiest parts of BPD were in the very beginning of the relationship, devaluation never occurs before idealization. Emotional attachments are formed before devaluation occurs.

Didn't say that. Idealization always comes before the devaluation part. But what kind of idealization? Read on

Idealization only becomes unhealthy when the relationship is not allowed to mature out of it and progress into something much more substantial and deeper. (Idealization does have a courtship biological function in any relationship.) With a pwBPD, engulfment steps in instead, then the wheels fall off. Again, these are all characteristics of the disorder, not the Non, of any flavor.

But the way how we enjoyed this idealization is unhealthy. This is the main issue. They idealized us and we liked that, this ideal image fed something that was missing inside us. We felt great about being something important to someone - to be needed not to be loved.

And this is something that I found unhealthy. Ok, every relationship has idealization part. But in our case it was too extreme from both sides. Extreme = unhealthy

blackbirdsong, kudos to you for recognizing issues within yourself that need to be addressed. That may be the blessing in disguise from your relationship.

Thank you. I hope it is.

[Moselle]

I guess in a twisted way, I am grateful for the abuse. I have learned firsthand what I will not tolerate from anyone. I have learned about boundaries and a pwBPD caught me once as a non-with-issues, shame on her. If I do it again after all I've learned, shame on me.

[Joem678]

Since, I found this board, I have not found a person or read a post where the member is portraying themselves as a victim.  What I see are wives, fathers, husbands, mothers who are just trying to make sense of their situation.  And when we find hundreds of people that have lived similarly to us, it provides a sense of healing.  I have four kids with my wife.  I wish I could just walk away cold turkey but because of those four kids, I can't.  No matter what, we will be connected for the rest of our lives.  

And no I'm not NPD or codependent. I did have to go to therapy this time around.  I was just manipulated.  I guess that is where you don' see what we see.  Our partners are not being malicious.  I guess I was built a little more compassionate towards people who might have problems.  

[blackbirdsong]

We weren't the "only" ones  though. There were probably many. How do you think you triggered yours blackbirdsong?

Because I have NPD elements. NPD, in relationship thinks: If I feel bad it must be my fault. This is unhealthy.

BPD thinks: If I feel bad, it must be his/her fault. This is also unhealthy.

And this is endless, unhealthy cycle. Borderline rages, and you are feeding its rage by thinking you can/should fix it.

And by thinking that way, you are feeding their rage. You are triggering even worse reaction. Adding fuel to the fire.