Why did we stay for so long?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I'm trying to do some self examination into why I allowed myself to be in an unhealthy relationship for so long with all the lying, constant verbal abuse, false accusations, her intense anger and blowups, throwing things, breaking things, multiple breakups, etc.

Reading other posts here they reference us nons as being co-dependent or lacking self-esteem however those don't fit me.  I'm very aware that I've always had personality traits of being very kind, generous, caring and helpful to other people, even strangers, and to put others needs before mine. Yes I can be taken advantage of and there are slimy people out there that would, but I am not naive in that and I don't want to and will not change this personality trait.  If I do get taken advatage of then I would be done with that person.  I have noticed that in some of my past relationships it was with those in need or pain or in some difficulty but I didn't know this at first until after we met and there was already an attraction.  Yes it does feel good to be the savior or to come to someone's rescue sometimes.  In prior relationships, There's no way I would have tolerated being mistreated like I was with my  BPDex.  In one past relationship, my ex-gf could not let her hatred go with her ex for cheating.  It affected our relationship and eventually I ended it realizing she was not capable of loving me fully when she had so much hate for her ex.  In another relationship, my gf was remarried 3 times with the same guy and though I had strong feelings for her, after I found out she was still friendly with him and seeing him, I walked out.  I didn't need an emotionally unstable person in my life.  I care about me too much.  I'm very independent, don't feel like I need anyone, I have a positive opinion of myself, I'm a good person.

Fast forward to my relationship with my BPDex.  I was mesmerized the instant our eyes met and it was mutual.  We went out the next day, talked alot, she told me she had health (kidney) issues but I wanted to still see her.  For three months we dated it was wonderful, though I traveled alot so we only saw each other every two weeks but talked daily.  Very little issues were observed at first.  After that I saw her anger outbursts over seeming nothing, then accusations, jealousy, some occasional verbally abusive comments.  At first I attributed them to stresses or issues with dealing with her past.  Her ex cheated on her.  Ok so she wasn't perfect.   I loved her and any normal couple has problems and if you love each other you try to work it out.  Yes after some point you need to realize it's not working and the need to let go.  Thats where I let myself down.  I allowed my line to be crossed.  It got worse, multiple breakups initiated by her( push/pull).  She  went on a date after one breakup but we got back together right after.  One breakup she got involved in a relationship and after two months we got back together at my urging.  Even when she was with this guy she still saw me occasionally, we had sex once though she claims it was over then though I believe she was still with him at that time.  So the verbal abuse, lies, breakups got worse however I did then learn about BPD and learned validation, empathy, and just not to take things personally so the relationship was manageable.  Even then after going through hell I still couldn't let her go.  I set conditions, no more breakups and no cheating or I will be done.  Her next initiated breakup was with a text, no reason, no prior argument, nothing.  I knew I was done then so thats where I am.

Why do I still care for her so much after all I've been through.  Why  does it hurt so much?  Why did I go for so long like that?  Is it just possible I loved her so deeply and there's nothing wrong with me? 

[steve195915]

I'm trying to do some self examination into why I allowed myself to be in an unhealthy relationship for so long with all the lying, constant verbal abuse, false accusations, her intense anger and blowups, throwing things, breaking things, multiple breakups, etc.

Reading other posts here they reference us nons as being co-dependent or lacking self-esteem however those don't fit me.  I'm very aware that I've always had personality traits of being very kind, generous, caring and helpful to other people, even strangers, and to put others needs before mine. Yes I can be taken advantage of and there are slimy people out there that would, but I am not naive in that and I don't want to and will not change this personality trait.  If I do get taken advatage of then I would be done with that person.  I have noticed that in some of my past relationships it was with those in need or pain or in some difficulty but I didn't know this at first until after we met and there was already an attraction.  Yes it does feel good to be the savior or to come to someone's rescue sometimes.  In prior relationships, There's no way I would have tolerated being mistreated like I was with my  BPDex.  In one past relationship, my ex-gf could not let her hatred go with her ex for cheating.  It affected our relationship and eventually I ended it realizing she was not capable of loving me fully when she had so much hate for her ex.  In another relationship, my gf was remarried 3 times with the same guy and though I had strong feelings for her, after I found out she was still friendly with him and seeing him, I walked out.  I didn't need an emotionally unstable person in my life.  I care about me too much.  I'm very independent, don't feel like I need anyone, I have a positive opinion of myself, I'm a good person.

Fast forward to my relationship with my BPDex.  I was mesmerized the instant our eyes met and it was mutual.  We went out the next day, talked alot, she told me she had health (kidney) issues but I wanted to still see her.  For three months we dated it was wonderful, though I traveled alot so we only saw each other every two weeks but talked daily.  Very little issues were observed at first.  After that I saw her anger outbursts over seeming nothing, then accusations, jealousy, some occasional verbally abusive comments.  At first I attributed them to stresses or issues with dealing with her past.  Her ex cheated on her.  Ok so she wasn't perfect.   I loved her and any normal couple has problems and if you love each other you try to work it out.  Yes after some point you need to realize it's not working and the need to let go.  Thats where I let myself down.  I allowed my line to be crossed.  It got worse, multiple breakups initiated by her( push/pull).  She  went on a date after one breakup but we got back together right after.  One breakup she got involved in a relationship and after two months we got back together at my urging.  Even when she was with this guy she still saw me occasionally, we had sex once though she claims it was over then though I believe she was still with him at that time.  So the verbal abuse, lies, breakups got worse however I did then learn about BPD and learned validation, empathy, and just not to take things personally so the relationship was manageable.  Even then after going through hell I still couldn't let her go.  I set conditions, no more breakups and no cheating or I will be done.  Her next initiated breakup was with a text, no reason, no prior argument, nothing.  I knew I was done then so thats where I am.

Why do I still care for her so much after all I've been through.  Why  does it hurt so much?  Why did I go for so long like that?  Is it just possible I loved her so deeply and there's nothing wrong with me? 

[burritoman]

Early on I told myself that she had a bad first 20 years or so of her life, but I can't judge her for it. Her horrible childhood wasn't her fault, and she's removed herself from that environment. She mentioned she had problems but she seemed to present herself so well. I thought she knew how to handle herself. Also, I felt like I was Mister Fix-it... .

Once the bad traits started coming out I put my guard up, which then fueled her to get more and more upset. On the side though, I remembered the good times and the sweet girl I first met, and I tried harder and harder to bring her back. Then she would drop things like "why do you even want to be with me? You could do so much better," "we're on different wavelengths," "I'm sorry, but this isn't working out." I'd stay because I felt I could fix things, but at the same time SHE stayed as well.

The push/pull, the extreme highs, the low lows. It sucks you in, and you try so hard to make things right because you believe it's YOUR fault things got bad. Then they leave you regardless, and you walk around aimlessly with big cartoon question marks hovering over your head. It's a drug.

[butterfly15]

I agree with burritoman... .it's definitley an addiction. I was addicted and still am to my ex. It was the charm, the sex, nothing like I had every felt. He had little to offer otherwise. He was in a bad financial situation when we met. He promised things would get better. That was 2 years ago. Not much has changed with him. I know he will continue to struggle in all aspects of his life. Literally. However, I am still addicted. From what I have read it does get easier with time. I haven't had any contact with him in over a month and I am still missing him terribly. I know I am so much better without him. I would literally wait by my phone for any message or phone call from him. I finally changed his ring tone and text tone to the default setting. I found relief by doing so. I know longer wait for his special sound.

I also feel that I am not the co dependent type. Any other relationship and I would never have stayed with them. Something about him just had me enthralled, trapped, addicted. I was married for over 5 years and never felt any of this for my ex husband.

[steve195915]

I agree with burritoman... .it's definitley an addiction. I was addicted and still am to my ex. It was the charm, the sex, nothing like I had every felt. He had little to offer otherwise. He was in a bad financial situation when we met. He promised things would get better. That was 2 years ago. Not much has changed with him. I know he will continue to struggle in all aspects of his life. Literally. However, I am still addicted. From what I have read it does get easier with time. I haven't had any contact with him in over a month and I am still missing him terribly. I know I am so much better without him. I would literally wait by my phone for any message or phone call from him. I finally changed his ring tone and text tone to the default setting. I found relief by doing so. I know longer wait for his special sound.

I also feel that I am not the co dependent type. Any other relationship and I would never have stayed with them. Something about him just had me enthralled, trapped, addicted. I was married for over 5 years and never felt any of this for my ex husband.

Same stories.  I can say I felt addicted too. She had nothing to offer, health, emotional, and finanial problems.  Mine also asked why I would want to be with someone like her, that I could do better.  I do think now she just said that for manipulation as other times she was adamant there was nothing wrong with her (as she's screaming vulgarities at the top of her lungs). 

She even asked me once if I truly love her or am I just addicted. 

So if we aren't the co-dependent type, what is it?  An addiction to what?  Addictions are typically due to chemicals, alcohol, nicotine, etc. 

Can it be a combination of things;  we were very much in love, plus we may have a 'caretaker' or other personality traits (i.e. desire to not fail), plus the pwBPD actions of being the victim, manipulating us to feel guilty, them not giving us any sort of closure, them keeping the door partly open? 

Also for me I never experienced some of the situations and when encountered may have been emotionally immature in dealing with them rationally.  Situations like the most amazing sex ever (it was truly like pure love) then brutal verbal attacks like they hate us followed by love again.  The walking away with no real reason leaving us confused and devastated.  Then they cry and want us back and say they love us so much. 

[RR4U]

I'm still IN it trying to get out. My recent therapist gets it and that's a relief. I def think we stay so long bc we all have that caretaker role.  We don't want to be another person that abandoned them and I think that fear of the unknown.  As much as its and up/down we have come to except it. It becomes normal.  Right now Im at the fear stage. Scared of everything. You all give me encouragement that I can leave

[steve195915]

I'm still IN it trying to get out. My recent therapist gets it and that's a relief. I def think we stay so long bc we all have that caretaker role.  We don't want to be another person that abandoned them and I think that fear of the unknown.  As much as its and up/down we have come to except it. It becomes normal.  Right now Im at the fear stage. Scared of everything. You all give me encouragement that I can leave

Yes all very true.  I'm definitely a caretaker and I have told myself that I'm not the one thats going to abandon her.  The only fear I have was that I may never find a love that strong again.

What's your fear?

No one deserves to be mistreated like we were.  We are decent people that deserve much better and we can have hope that we can find somebody one day that can truly love us.  Yes it hurts to try and move on but we have to respect ourselves and know we can do it. 

[antelope]

many times our reason for staying is fundamentally grounded in our families of origin (FOO)... .something about the way we were treated by our BPD is reminiscent of our upbringing or the model our parents/guardians played for us

yes, self-esteem and rescuer tendencies play roles, as often does the emergence from a crisis prior to our meeting the BPD (i.e. being in a vulnerable place on our life, be it financial, emotional, identity, etc)

yet, ironically, the reason we stay may have to do with the familiarity of the person with BPD... .someone in our family may have displayed these emotional characteristics, so it seemed 'normal' to us. 

you may notice patterns with the friends and former lovers you have gravitated towards as well... .rescuing may be part of it, but perhaps some dormant psychological issue may be pressing to find its resolution vis-à-vis our association with 'toxic' people... .

[antelope]

many times our reason for staying is fundamentally grounded in our families of origin (FOO)... .something about the way we were treated by our BPD is reminiscent of our upbringing or the model our parents/guardians played for us

yes, self-esteem and rescuer tendencies play roles in our reasons for staying, as often does the emergence from a crisis prior to our meeting the BPD (i.e. being in a vulnerable place on our life, be it financial, emotional, identity, etc)

yet, ironically, the reason we stay may have to do with the familiarity of the person with BPD... .someone in our family may have displayed these emotional characteristics, so it seemed 'normal' to us.  

you may notice patterns with the friends and former lovers you have gravitated towards as well... .rescuing may be part of it, but perhaps some dormant psychological issue may be pressing to find its resolution vis-à-vis our association with 'toxic' people... .

[antelope]

sorry for the double post 

[Pretty Woman]

Hi Everyone. Great thread... .had to chime in.

We stayed for many reasons, many that the posters before me pointed out.

1) We are caregivers

2) We became emeshed in a co-dependant relationship

3) We ourselves are emotionally wounded

You can be a confident, independent person and still get involved with a BPD. The difference is this... .as soon as all the shyt started flying an emotionally healthy person would have run.

We did not. There is a reason we stayed and that has to do with our own issues.

I am not saying we are as unhealthy as the BPD but we do have core wounds. I never realized how wounded I was until this relationship ended and I got into therapy. It was there I realized why I stayed and took the abuse until she abandoned me... .

I have been abandoned ever since I was little. My dad left, key friends left. I have had a few people just disappear on me. So here I was clinging to this ill person as a life-raft when she couldn't even keep herself above water.

People get scared they won't find a love as deep as the one with their BPD.  Removed from the relationship 6mo I can say my BPD was neither deep nor was this love. I know nothing about her other than she loves football, collects rocks and well... .that's it. No goals, hopes or dreams. I know she rages, cheats, lies and steals.

I am hard pressed to think I could do any worse.

I am dating a man now who is amazing.  Do I still think about my ex? Yes. But I can tell you with certainty you CAN find someone of more substance who is capable of real love and intimacy. I actually pushed this guy away at first but he knows the situation and has been patient with me.

I am falling in love again. It is scary but once you realize this person is nothing like your ex you will trust again.

You will be happy. Have faith!

PW

[steve195915]

Hi Everyone. Great thread... .had to chime in.

We stayed for many reasons, many that the posters before me pointed out.

1) We are caregivers

2) We became emeshed in a co-dependant relationship

3) We ourselves are emotionally wounded

You can be a confident, independent person and still get involved with a BPD. The difference is this... .as soon as all the shyt started flying an emotionally healthy person would have run.

We did not. There is a reason we stayed and that has to do with our own issues.

I am not saying we are as unhealthy as the BPD but we do have core wounds. I never realized how wounded I was until this relationship ended and I got into therapy. It was there I realized why I stayed and took the abuse until she abandoned me... .

I have been abandoned ever since I was little. My dad left, key friends left. I have had a few people just disappear on me. So here I was clinging to this ill person as a life-raft when she couldn't even keep herself above water.

People get scared they won't find a love as deep as the one with their BPD.  Removed from the relationship 6mo I can say my BPD was neither deep nor was this love. I know nothing about her other than she loves football, collects rocks and well... .that's it. No goals, hopes or dreams. I know she rages, cheats, lies and steals.

I am hard pressed to think I could do any worse.

I am dating a man now who is amazing.  Do I still think about my ex? Yes. But I can tell you with certainty you CAN find someone of more substance who is capable of real love and intimacy. I actually pushed this guy away at first but he knows the situation and has been patient with me.

I am falling in love again. It is scary but once you realize this person is nothing like your ex you will trust again.

You will be happy. Have faith!

PW

Yes I'm a caretaker but the other things don't seem to apply to me.  I grew up with a very normal family and had a healthy happy childhood.  I considered myself confident and independent.  Also I was very selective in dating and therefore had few serious relationships and if I saw any red flags I ended them abruptly.  With this relationship, she was on the best behavior for the first 3 months and I remember thinking how lucky I was to meet someone that was so beautiful and normal.  During those 3 months we only saw each other every two weeks on the weekends as I traveled for work so that made it easier for her to keep her true colors hidden. By the time red flags surfaced, I was deeply in love.  So the first anger outburst of course I'm not going to give up.  In any normal relationship there are issues and arguments and there should be a committment from both to work through issues and not just give up on the first sign of trouble.  Also I can be stubborn and determined and that's what I was.   

I believe I was emotionally healthy and didn't have unhealthy emotional issues.  If after her first breakup if she said she didn't love me anymore, it's not working for her and there was no future for us, I would've been deeply hurt but would've moved on.  But there was no closure, the breakup was for no real reason, she said she still loved me.  I was devastated, it didn't make any sense.  So when she contacted me of course I wanted to get back together. 

If the same thing happens again in the future with another person, I wouldn't give up on the first argument that happened 3 months in, and I probably would still take her back after the first breakup.  How can that not be considered normal behavior?  What doesn't seem normal would be to break up upon the first disagreement that happened 3 months into the relationship, or to give up on the first sign of any adversity. 

What I did do was allow the recycles go on too many times but couldn't that just be because of the love I felt, my strong determination and confidence that I can make things better, my personal trait to be a caretaker? Once I realized she had a BPD and that there was nothing I could ever do to have a healthy relationship with her, I knew I had to let her go no matter how painful. 

Lets say there's a married couple of several years where one spouse has an affair.  If the other spouse chooses to go to counseling to try to work things out would they be judged to have deep emotional issues for trying.  If they immediately filed for divorce is that the normal thing to do.  Who's to judge what's normal. 

Yes I have been emotionally damaged by this relationship and in the future I will be more aware of actions and mental illnesses that are incurable, and not allow myself to be put through the same hell however, I also will not run from the relationship upon the first disagreement or sign of adversity as I think that is unhealthy and a sign of emotional instability. 

[Newton]

steve195915 a caveat is I haven't read your back story... .nor have I posted here for a while... .that aside   ... .

Your initial post sounded a lot like I did... .(can do)... .and also a heap of cognitive dissonance (I'm not a person who acts like this but I did)... .

Maybe you are 'codependent'... .you've certainly listed a good deal of traits in the particular relationship... .acknowledging you let go of your boundaries is good news!... .it means you have some... .and they need defining and reinforcing!... .so you maintain them with others but not this particular person?... .

Perhaps you haven't exhibited this behaviour repeatedly in life and were sideswiped by a very manipulative individual.  People with a shifting sense of self will often say whatever is needed to acheive a goal in any given situation that presents,... .

I'd definitely look up 'trauma bonds' if you haven't already... .previous posters are spot on with the addiction element of these relationships... .(there are probably still links to articles here if you ask 

One of your sentences concerned me... ."put others needs before mine"... .why?.

[goateeki]

I'm trying to do some self examination into why I allowed myself to be in an unhealthy relationship for so long with all the lying, constant verbal abuse, false accusations, her intense anger and blowups, throwing things, breaking things, multiple breakups, etc.

Reading other posts here they reference us nons as being co-dependent or lacking self-esteem however those don't fit me.  I'm very aware that I've always had personality traits of being very kind, generous, caring and helpful to other people, even strangers, and to put others needs before mine. Yes I can be taken advantage of and there are slimy people out there that would, but I am not naive in that and I don't want to and will not change this personality trait.  If I do get taken advatage of then I would be done with that person.  I have noticed that in some of my past relationships it was with those in need or pain or in some difficulty but I didn't know this at first until after we met and there was already an attraction.  Yes it does feel good to be the savior or to come to someone's rescue sometimes.  In prior relationships, There's no way I would have tolerated being mistreated like I was with my  BPDex.  In one past relationship, my ex-gf could not let her hatred go with her ex for cheating.  It affected our relationship and eventually I ended it realizing she was not capable of loving me fully when she had so much hate for her ex.  In another relationship, my gf was remarried 3 times with the same guy and though I had strong feelings for her, after I found out she was still friendly with him and seeing him, I walked out.  I didn't need an emotionally unstable person in my life.  I care about me too much.  I'm very independent, don't feel like I need anyone, I have a positive opinion of myself, I'm a good person.

Fast forward to my relationship with my BPDex.  I was mesmerized the instant our eyes met and it was mutual.  We went out the next day, talked alot, she told me she had health (kidney) issues but I wanted to still see her.  For three months we dated it was wonderful, though I traveled alot so we only saw each other every two weeks but talked daily.  Very little issues were observed at first.  After that I saw her anger outbursts over seeming nothing, then accusations, jealousy, some occasional verbally abusive comments.  At first I attributed them to stresses or issues with dealing with her past.  Her ex cheated on her.  Ok so she wasn't perfect.   I loved her and any normal couple has problems and if you love each other you try to work it out.  Yes after some point you need to realize it's not working and the need to let go.  Thats where I let myself down.  I allowed my line to be crossed.  It got worse, multiple breakups initiated by her( push/pull).  She  went on a date after one breakup but we got back together right after.  One breakup she got involved in a relationship and after two months we got back together at my urging.  Even when she was with this guy she still saw me occasionally, we had sex once though she claims it was over then though I believe she was still with him at that time.  So the verbal abuse, lies, breakups got worse however I did then learn about BPD and learned validation, empathy, and just not to take things personally so the relationship was manageable.  Even then after going through hell I still couldn't let her go.  I set conditions, no more breakups and no cheating or I will be done.  Her next initiated breakup was with a text, no reason, no prior argument, nothing.  I knew I was done then so thats where I am.

Why do I still care for her so much after all I've been through.  Why  does it hurt so much?  Why did I go for so long like that?  Is it just possible I loved her so deeply and there's nothing wrong with me? 

I think whether you believe this is a good relationship depends on your view of what a relationship should be.  Maybe this fell within your definition of "good relationship" for some extended period of time.  I realize now that my 19 year marriage with my diagnosed BPD ex wife was from its start an unholy thing.

The thing is, you can be all of those things -- loving, kind, considerate, tolerant of fault -- with someone who gives the same to you.  That's where I am now.  The woman I'm with, we just want to love each other.  We don't want to evaluate each other, tolerate each other, manage each other, and we do not have to.  The only thing there's room for is really appreciating and loving each other. 

It is possible that you and I are very much alike.  My T pointed out early on that the kind of adaptiveness you show is a good thing when you're in a prison camp.  If you're ever in one, you'll be the one guy who makes it because you can tolerate anything and have an unrelenting belief that you can make a bad situation work.  But that very characteristic works against happiness in a relationship with a pwBPD.  We accommodate and manage and forgive and overlook and pour more and more love into system that is flawed in the way its built. 

So maybe there isn't a thing wrong with you.  You're probably a super person.  There's probably NOTHING wrong with you.  You just make crappy choices sometimes, as most of us do. Love is a great thing in reciprocal relationships.  Love exacerbates the flaws in nonreciprocal, unequal relationships.

I am convinced that my relationship with a fellow non (just over a year now) is something that is (as I like to say) more than the sum of its parts.  We really are something better and bigger together than we are if you just add she and I together.  It is fundamentally different from my marriage.   

[Newton]

goateeki I'd like to associate myself with your comments... .well said  

Not attempting to put words in steves mouth here... .it seemed to me that the motivation for the post was WHY these choices to participate were made at that time... .?...

"When someone shows you what they are like... .believe them"... .why didn't we?, over extended time?... .repeatedly?.  

[steve195915]

Goateeki, very well said and thanks for responding. 

My relationship was excellent for the first 3 months, the next 3 were reasonable, not really out of the norm but she did exhibit extreme jealousy and bouts of anger.   I wrote off the jealousy as fear of abandonment since she admitted this due to her father abandoning her as a child and then her exH cheating on her several times in the marriage.  She admitted she had 'fire' but I thought then it was manageable.  It was after that the push/pull, the breakups, the accusations, lies, the extreme rage, the constant verbal abuse and the manipulations to keep me attached occurred that were way out of the norm.  The relationship lasted another 16 months less the inbetween breakups.  In retrospect possibly after the first or definitely the 2nd breakup I should've called it quits so I stayed 8 months longer than I should have.  If she was a somewhat normal person I would have but she is a master manipulator and knew how to push all the right buttons.  Love is blind sometimes. 

[butterfly15]

Goateeki, very well said and thanks for responding.  

 The relationship lasted another 16 months less the inbetween breakups.  In retrospect possibly after the first or definitely the 2nd breakup I should've called it quits so I stayed 8 months longer than I should have.  If she was a somewhat normal person I would have but she is a master manipulator and knew how to push all the right buttons.  Love is blind sometimes.  

Same for me  love is blind

[goateeki]

goateeki I'd like to associate myself with your comments... .well said  

Not attempting to put words in steves mouth here... .it seemed to me that the motivation for the post was WHY these choices to participate were made at that time... .?...

"When someone shows you what they are like... .believe them"... .why didn't we?, over extended time?... .repeatedly?.  

Honestly, I think I know why we were drawn in. 

My T has spoken to me about this a bit, and this guy is not trying to be an advocate for me at all.  One reason I like him is that he is so consistently frank with me, and I think that this is something that might not exist between myself and a female T. 

He suggested to me that very often, pwBPD are raised in an environment that teaches them to provoke sympathy in others.  Either because affection and understanding is absent, or in the more complex case of the engulfing parent, because parental attention is too great and has to be managed THROUGH sympathy (it too me a while to get this but in essence, the constant evocation of sympathy is a way to exert control over an engulfing parent who has her own agenda for the child).  He said that because the path to BPD begins in childhood, we might expect that sympathy is the "vector" on which the pwBPD acts upon the world.  Children are capable of little else to affect their surroundings.  This is also why the coping mechanisms of a pwBPD are compared to the coping mechanisms of a child (all good / all bad thinking, etc.).  He believes that ingrained expertise in the evocation is sympathy is essential to understanding pwBPD.   

So, their forte is evoking sympathy in much the same way a Venus fly trap or pitcher plant evokes a "come hither" response in an insect.  Sympathy, healthy or pathological, is what the pwBPD traffics in.  It's highly evolved, just along a very bad path.  That's why decent people are drawn to them.  Callous or selfish people are not drawn to them in anywhere near the same numbers we principled nons are, he said. 

[hopealways]

Hi Everyone. Great thread... .had to chime in.

We stayed for many reasons, many that the posters before me pointed out.

1) We are caregivers

2) We became emeshed in a co-dependant relationship

3) We ourselves are emotionally wounded

You can be a confident, independent person and still get involved with a BPD. The difference is this... .as soon as all the shyt started flying an emotionally healthy person would have run.

We did not. There is a reason we stayed and that has to do with our own issues.

I am not saying we are as unhealthy as the BPD but we do have core wounds. I never realized how wounded I was until this relationship ended and I got into therapy. It was there I realized why I stayed and took the abuse until she abandoned me... .

I have been abandoned ever since I was little. My dad left, key friends left. I have had a few people just disappear on me. So here I was clinging to this ill person as a life-raft when she couldn't even keep herself above water.

People get scared they won't find a love as deep as the one with their BPD.  Removed from the relationship 6mo I can say my BPD was neither deep nor was this love. I know nothing about her other than she loves football, collects rocks and well... .that's it. No goals, hopes or dreams. I know she rages, cheats, lies and steals.

I am hard pressed to think I could do any worse.

I am dating a man now who is amazing.  :)o I still think about my ex? Yes. But I can tell you with certainty you CAN find someone of more substance who is capable of real love and intimacy. I actually pushed this guy away at first but he knows the situation and has been patient with me.

I am falling in love again. It is scary but once you realize this person is nothing like your ex you will trust again.

You will be happy. Have faith!

PW

IN BOLD: this really resonated with me PrettyWoman, thank you. Now that I think of it 5 months later, what do I even know about my ex?

[burritoman]

I know nothing about her other than she loves football, collects rocks and well... .that's it. No goals, hopes or dreams. I know she rages, cheats, lies and steals.

You know... .I've thought about this a lot and I realized that I feel the same way. I knew about her interests, hobbies, goals (which she never strived to achieve - blamed it on me). I also knew about her family past and her past relationships, but I never really KNEW her. I could never figure out what makes her tick. One minute she'd be laying down some bizarre philosophy about life and telling me she thrives on chaos, and the next minute she'd be house-sitting for her friend's cat because she loves animals. It was impossible to get inside her brain and say "yes, THIS is who you are. This is what you're about."

Sometimes she'd even say "well you obviously don't understand me." I tried, dear. For three years.

[Herodias]

I was supposed to read mines mind! Yes,,, I am thinking about this as well! Mine just acted like my plans were his plans! I wonder if he is doing that now with having a baby? He never talked about dreams and plans... .Maybe about my plans. When he would tell me his thoughts, they weren't at all what he is about to do now! I guess mine was always short term and all about the moment! Although he did talk about "future women" so he does plan on cheating in the future,

[apollotech]

An addiction to what?  Addictions are typically due to chemicals, alcohol, nicotine, etc.

Steve,

You, we, were addicted to a chemical, our own brain chemistry, which was/is altered during these intense, chaotic relationships. These relationships don't mature beyond the infantile beginning stage of any relationship; as a result, a Non is abnormally overstimulated for an abnormally long period of time. (This is the cause of PTSD.) So yes, chemicals were involved. The highs and lows we experienced were products of our own biology; our respective partners were merely the catalyst for said experiences.

[Trog]

It's a funny one isn't it? In all manner of other things, perhaps business or other life, if someone was to give you the level of sh*t that a BPD ex gives you - you'd have called it off long ago. I think there's a trick in all this, its the nagging doubt that perhaps it's you, it's a lack of confidence in your own decision making that they hang their whole charade from. Something always feels kinda off, and for me, something always did, but I was always willing to take on her things as my things and then talk myself out of these creeping feelings.

One is, we want it to be true. We want to believe the best in people and it's our "fair person" mentality that they are able to play so sweetly. We hold up the relationship. I have commented before, not my friends not my brothers, they were all amazed at how I could put up with a person like that for so long, to them, it was crystal clear she was bad news and irritating/mentally ill, but a part of me got pleasure from the fact that I was STRONG, i could handle this DAMAGED person, that made me feel good, hey, all her exes couldn't cope with her but HEY, im different and strong and that made me feel like a "good person". The fact it nearly killed me and made me miserable beyond belief wasn't registering as loudly as the faux morality.

In the end of course, even on that level of thinking I was helping her, I was only enabling her and then when we finally turn and get it, we're replaced, because at the end of the day, there's always another sucker out there who thinks they are going to be the one who solves all her problems. It hurts because we realise we are not special, our special-ness was simply that attribute of taking a lot of crap and enabling bad behaviour, when that well dries up, we are left with the reality, it isn't love. If we wont hold them up anymore they wont change their ways because they love us, they'll just find another well. That's heartbreaking.

We stay as long as we have to in order to get the lesson. It took me 7 years and 3 recycles to get the lesson. I'm slow.

[Newton]

Good points well made Trog... .

These relationships are a dysfunctional dance... .Our partners were conditioned in often shocking home environments, the resulting stunted, under developed EQ manifesting through acting out/in.

It takes introspection and hard personal work to establish how our own EQ was also significantly lacking and actively encouraged us to seek out, participate... and remain in the chaos... .

   

[RR4U]

Thank you for all the strength you all had to leave, it's encouraging . I'm another Slow one.  I'm trying to get out now. Scared that I may never be strong enough to do it.

[steve195915]

Thank you for all the strength you all had to leave, it's encouraging . I'm another Slow one.  I'm trying to get out now. Scared that I may never be strong enough to do it.

We all have to do it ourselves in our own way.  For me I tried NC and couldn't do it.  So I'm in contact with my ex daily via phone and I see her on weekends.  Not the recommended method but it's working for me.  I'm detaching from the emotional bondage by researching BPD, being on this site and reading about all the horror stories.  I realize the cycle will just repeat and I respect and love myself to not allow it to happen anymore.  Awareness is the key for me.  Keeping in my mind all the instances and pain I had to endure, and knowing there is no cure, it will never get better, just worse or more of the same, why would I want to stay in a relationship like that? 

[letmeout]

I think I won the 'slow' game, it took me 35 years to get out. I put up with a lot of crazy to be his 'caretaker' because as he said himself, I was a rock and I could handle anything.

I finally decided that life is too short to waste whats left of it with someone so abusive & self centered. He was full of drama and I guess I got off on the addiction to the drama, but life is so much more peaceful now.

[hopealways]

An addiction to what?  Addictions are typically due to chemicals, alcohol, nicotine, etc.

Steve,

You, we, were addicted to a chemical, our own brain chemistry, which was/is altered during these intense, chaotic relationships. These relationships don't mature beyond the infantile beginning stage of any relationship; as a result, a Non is abnormally overstimulated for an abnormally long period of time. (This is the cause of PTSD.) So yes, chemicals were involved. The highs and lows we experienced were products of our own biology; our respective partners were merely the catalyst for said experiences.

I completely agree with this. And this is why NC is so important to level out these out of balance chemicals.

[FlyFish]

I agree that the pain we are going through is the result of withdrawing from an addiction. Don't get me wrong all breakups suck, even mutual ones. But, All of us on here are/were addicted to our exBPD in some way or another. Maybe it manifests as addiction to love, sex, loyalty, intimacy, etc... .But the pain we are experiencing is that of withdrawal. Our exBPD were giving us something that our bodies and minds felt we needed in order to function properly and we became consumed by it (At least I did). My T is sometimes treating me as if I'm withdrawing from a drug addiction. In the first month after the final breakup my body even reacted like I was coming off an addiction to drugs: no sleeping, nightmares, no eating, dry heaves, shakes, sweets, panic attacks, obsessive thinking, alcohol abuse (coping), etc... .

Like many of you I thought I had found the love of my life. She completed me, for lack of better words. I am still struggling with this 4 months later and I still question whether I am improving. Why did we stay so long? In my case it was because I had found a relationship that I had been seeking for my whole life. The good times were the best I have ever had. The worst times were worst. Extremes to both ends. I stayed because I longed for the highs. I longed for the love that I thought she could provide. I stayed because I thought I could fight through the difficulties we were going through. I stayed because I thought she could change. You cannot change someone, they must want to change themselves. I could fight but she couldn't and it definitely takes two to make a healthy relationship. Was it love? I'd like to think so. But the more I look at it I needed her and she needed me. And just because two people can meet each others needs does not equate love.

[Reforming]

Hi Steve,

I'm trying to do some self examination into why I allowed myself to be in an unhealthy relationship for so long with all the lying, constant verbal abuse, false accusations, her intense anger and blowups, throwing things, breaking things, multiple breakups, etc.

It's a question that gets asked a lot on this forum and you've already got a lot of very good answers.

It's three years since my relationship ended. The last thing my couple counsellor said when I ended my relationship in therapy was "I think you need to work out why you stayed so long"

I can't say it was something I wanted to hear at the time, but I noted it and over the last three years I done a fair bit of work on myself, CBT, Schema therapy and a lot of reading.

I think it's important to recognise that there's isn't a one fit all answer here. The answer question varies a lot on the relationship and the two people involved.

Co-dependency pops up a lot these days - I accept that it can be an issue for a lot of us, but it's also become an industry in itself.

Some of us definitely suffered from self esteem issues and poor boundaries. Some of us are unhealthily drawn to rescuing. But I also think it's often a little more complex than that

Most of us are culturally conditioned to believe that marriage or longterm relationships are a serious commitment that require effort and sacrifice.

They do, but they also require two relatively healthy liked minded people to work - something not really referenced in the sickness and health pledge. So social and cultural conditioning can also keep us in unhealthy relationships.

Do all healthy people walk away very quickly. No I think this is a myth. People of varying degrees of mental health can end up in very destructive relationships for varying lengths of time.

A relationship with a disordered person is often profoundly confusing because PDs are hidden, triggered by intimacy and often only really emerge over time. The majority of us know very little about mental illnesses and are very poorly equipped to recognise the warning signs. If they gradually worsen over time when you're already married with children your boundaries can be worn down and the behaviour can be normalised.

I think mental health and relationship skills should be a compulsory subject at every school, but it's not so most of learn by getting burnt.

Reading other posts here they reference us nons as being co-dependent or lacking self-esteem however those don't fit me.  I'm very aware that I've always had personality traits of being very kind, generous, caring and helpful to other people, even strangers, and to put others needs before mine. Yes I can be taken advantage of and there are slimy people out there that would, but I am not naive in that and I don't want to and will not change this personality trait.  If I do get taken advatage of then I would be done with that person.  I have noticed that in some of my past relationships it was with those in need or pain or in some difficulty but I didn't know this at first until after we met and there was already an attraction.  Yes it does feel good to be the savior or to come to someone's rescue sometimes.  In prior relationships, There's no way I would have tolerated being mistreated like I was with my  BPDex.  In one past relationship, my ex-gf could not let her hatred go with her ex for cheating.  It affected our relationship and eventually I ended it realizing she was not capable of loving me fully when she had so much hate for her ex.  In another relationship, my gf was remarried 3 times with the same guy and though I had strong feelings for her, after I found out she was still friendly with him and seeing him, I walked out.  I didn't need an emotionally unstable person in my life.  I care about me too much.  I'm very independent, don't feel like I need anyone, I have a positive opinion of myself, I'm a good person.

Loving something for or despite their flaws is not inherently unhealthy. It can inspire acts of kindness that can change people's lives and it's one of the most admirable human qualities. Sometimes people vulnerabilities can make them even more loveable. We'd be a much poorer society if we lost it.

Fast forward to my relationship with my BPDex.  I was mesmerized the instant our eyes met and it was mutual.  We went out the next day, talked alot, she told me she had health (kidney) issues but I wanted to still see her.  For three months we dated it was wonderful, though I traveled alot so we only saw each other every two weeks but talked daily.  Very little issues were observed at first.  After that I saw her anger outbursts over seeming nothing, then accusations, jealousy, some occasional verbally abusive comments.  At first I attributed them to stresses or issues with dealing with her past.  Her ex cheated on her.  Ok so she wasn't perfect.   I loved her and any normal couple has problems and if you love each other you try to work it out.  Yes after some point you need to realize it's not working and the need to let go.  Thats where I let myself down.  I allowed my line to be crossed.  It got worse, multiple breakups initiated by her( push/pull).  She  went on a date after one breakup but we got back together right after.  One breakup she got involved in a relationship and after two months we got back together at my urging.  Even when she was with this guy she still saw me occasionally, we had sex once though she claims it was over then though I believe she was still with him at that time.  So the verbal abuse, lies, breakups got worse however I did then learn about BPD and learned validation, empathy, and just not to take things personally so the relationship was manageable.  Even then after going through hell I still couldn't let her go.  I set conditions, no more breakups and no cheating or I will be done.  Her next initiated breakup was with a text, no reason, no prior argument, nothing.  I knew I was done then so thats where I am.

A relationship with a borderline or a disordered person is an extraordinary experience. 1 part intoxication - the idealisation is very heady and addictive - and 5 parts trauma - the lows are terrible, but still very intense and dramatic, which can be addictive too

Even you're self aware and independent it's very easy to get swept away so try not to be too hard on yourself. It's really positive and healthy to try and understand what happened and learn from it, but I think this needs to be tempered by compassion and understanding for yourself.

Why do I still care for her so much after all I've been through.  Why  does it hurt so much?  Why did I go for so long like that?  Is it just possible I loved her so deeply and there's nothing wrong with me? 

Love is a big word which can mean a lot of very different things to different people. The heady mix of idealisation and intense drama can leave a very strong mark especially when it's ends in chaos and trauma, but in many ways it's fundamentally shallow

I think healthy love is something different and much more sustainable.

With time and effort I've learned to see the experience in a different light and recognise that what I thought was love was more about need and intensity. I also recognise that I'll always be marked by the experience, but that it doesn't have to define me

The best of luck

Reforming

[thisworld]

I think when a turbulent relationship with some devastating experiences fails, we tend to look for weaknesses in ourselves. After a couple of these relationships (low-grade non-grandiose Narc mom, 10-12 years of marriage with a difficult husband - but not cluster B- , 8 months with a high functioning cerebral narc and 2-3 months with a dysfunctional BPD with strong narcissistic traits and somatic narcissism -and yes, I had healthy relationships, too) I'm now of the opinion that some positive qualities we possess also contribute to our demise in these relationships. Plus, codependency is often stereotyped and doesn't always occur through our weaknesses, there are very strong and independent people who somehow come up with these patterns in relationships. And the last but not the least, these relationships have an abusive nature, and people tend to stay longer than usual in these relationships for a variety of reasons embedded in the nature of the relationship rather than their usual personalities. When I ask myself why I stayed, the following are my answers:

1. Inexperience: The first is usually the longest. Have a couple of relationships like this and it becomes easier to see patterns. Then you get out quicker. (The question of why I repeated is something I'm working on.)

2. Their experience: People who don't have necessary emotional, cognitive and whatnot tools to build long-time intimate relationships have honed their skills really well to attract and charm people. This is one of the basic things their emotional survival (and sometimes physical) depends on. They can be dysfunctional themselves but attract high functioning people. There is no way I could attract anyone if I was as dysfunctional as my last partner, yet he did it:)) We have different skill sets, initial attraction is their playground.

3. Rationality: I love this one. Rational people tend to remain in irrational dialogues and all sorts of unhealthy communication because they are rational and probably not arrogant. They simply think that the problem could be solved rationally, the argument could be put back into a rational framework with rational tools. Well, not in Cluster B. This results in the rational one becoming crazy. I now see this as my half-rationality when interacting with Cluster B, a fully rational person sees it for what it is and stops believing that this can be solved rationally at home.

4. Well-developed problem solving skills: My inner voice: "I have tremendous problem solving skills, they have helped me everywhere in my life. My partner seems a bit crazy, but no worries, I can solve this with my problem-solving skills." (This is where my codependency and controlling aspects of my character come into play, not through lack of independence and confidence but the other way around.)

5. Lack of acceptance (probably an ego thing as well): My inner voice: "I have spent an enormous amount of time in an ultimately pointless relationship. I lost a lot of things and a lot of time. This is very difficult to accept because I don't see myself as someone who falls for this kind of drama in other aspects of my life. I have to stay and sort this out for my ego's sake. Gosh, I can't have done this! I can't have done this! I'll stay and sort this out and prove to myself that I haven't done this!      

6. An observing personality rather than a judging one: My inner voice "I've never seen anything like this. What's he going to do now? Let me stay and learn." Well well, curiosity killed the cat

7. Denial: My inner voice: "I'm not in an abusive relationship. I'm a high functioning, independent person. I cannot be abused, it's for other people. It cannot happen in my life. This is something else."

8. Guilt: My inner voice: "In the end of the day, I know my life will be OK after this. His may not be. I shouldn't leave him like this. Not right now. Maybe when he gets a bit better."  Sometimes we stay out of politeness

I sometimes feel engulfed but think it's very rude to admit this, especially if they seem to be "working" on the relationship.

Some elements of abusive relationships:

1. It works in cycles: The low is very low but the high is very high (compensation, otherwise nobody would stay). With the right amount of "high", we stay in these relationships. In abuse terminology, this is called "dosing."

2. Our confidence or belief in something is eroded even though we may not admit it.

3. We get used to the adrenalin high we get from fights and start missing it, too.

4. Sex is used as a control tool in these relationships a lot and at first we don't understand it. If there is a lot of sex we stay because it's extraordinary. Even when we start seeing it as a control tool, for a while we stay because what the heck, we are enjoying it. When there isn't a lot of sex, we again stay because we want to get it back (for ego-reasons).

5. We are trained, conditioned to lower our standards,  decrease our expectations slowly. But this happens pretty slowly. Somewhere in the middle, we are simply grateful that there isn't a big drama that day. Lack of drama starts feeling good enough. At one point, I was simply grateful that my partner cooked and cleaned the kitchen counter   Also, these days lacking drama are our only windows for problem solving. But we know what happens when we try to build boundaries or problem-solve. We are very tired emotionally so choose the easy road of just letting go, just for that day. Those days build up.

6. Our schema is confused. Being exposed to constantly contradicting behaviour does this to us. We can't act as soundly as we do in other things in life.

7. Illusionary comfort of the familiar: he is crazy but at least he is "my" crazy, and there is the semblance of a relationship at home. (This despite my being a very independent person.)

These are the first things that came to my mind. It's not always about weaknesses.  

Oh and the addiction aspect: I don't like the mirroring phases in Cluster B, I find them uncomfortable. I stayed in my longest relationship because of FOO (the primal need for validation/recognition). My deepest need was to be seen and recognized for who I was - something my mother never gave me. When I managed to internalize that I was who I was even though the other person couldn't see it, addiction stopped.