Manipulation / low emotional intelligence

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Question.

How do these two work together? It seems to me that in order to manipulate others the way they do (via hot cold games for example ) they'd have to be VERY intelligent in knowing how to read other's states and emotions, walk on a thin line, understand the other's person emotions etc.

Thoughts on this?

It's easy to say that they're child like emotionally but I don't think you could play others so expertly without understanding others to a very high degree.

I wasted so much time I'll never get back and she's acting like a complete tool to boot.  I wish she would quit.

I think that there are two ways that you can look at this. There are a lot of lessons that we can learn about ourselves in relationships with what we put out there in the world that we can take with us moving forward.

I know how invalidating that can feel when our ex partner's are acting like a tool because she can't put herself in your perspective and assess how her behaviors may hurt your feelings. I would feel hurt too. A pwBPD have low emotional intelligence, difficulties managing their own emotions and understanding the emotional state of others.

How about indifference? Become indifferent to her behaviors. You neither hate it or like it. Make sense?

this is part of radically accepting a person. of course her actions, toward you, feel very personal.

That's right. As I said earlier, we can look at this more than one way and not let her behaviors affect you down the road with radical acceptance. I see ex snap chatting without a care in the world again  

[NCEA]

Question.

How do these two work together? It seems to me that in order to manipulate others the way they do (via hot cold games for example ) they'd have to be VERY intelligent in knowing how to read other's states and emotions, walk on a thin line, understand the other's person emotions etc.

Thoughts on this?

It's easy to say that they're child like emotionally but I don't think you could play others so expertly without understanding others to a very high degree.

I wasted so much time I'll never get back and she's acting like a complete tool to boot.  I wish she would quit.

I think that there are two ways that you can look at this. There are a lot of lessons that we can learn about ourselves in relationships with what we put out there in the world that we can take with us moving forward.

I know how invalidating that can feel when our ex partner's are acting like a tool because she can't put herself in your perspective and assess how her behaviors may hurt your feelings. I would feel hurt too. A pwBPD have low emotional intelligence, difficulties managing their own emotions and understanding the emotional state of others.

How about indifference? Become indifferent to her behaviors. You neither hate it or like it. Make sense?

this is part of radically accepting a person. of course her actions, toward you, feel very personal.

That's right. As I said earlier, we can look at this more than one way and not let her behaviors affect you down the road with radical acceptance. I see ex snap chatting without a care in the world again  

[UVA2002]

Reptilian part of brain, animal instincts? It's like natural anthropology to them.Seriously if everything can be used intensified in a way we cannot understand why not. To the pwBPD this is normal that there instincts are programmed for the hunt because they have to fill a constant need. In the three cases I've had it was scary the level of intelligence and tactics but coming from a childlike brain. To balance multiple acts and keep them apart (mostly) is incredible in a way and very intelligent it's just when they capture their prey like a child they don't know what to do with it so we get really hurt in the process of them playing with us.

[bAlex]

Question.

How do these two work together? It seems to me that in order to manipulate others the way they do (via hot cold games for example ) they'd have to be VERY intelligent in knowing how to read other's states and emotions, walk on a thin line, understand the other's person emotions etc.

Thoughts on this?

It's easy to say that they're child like emotionally but I don't think you could play others so expertly without understanding others to a very high degree.

I wasted so much time I'll never get back and she's acting like a complete tool to boot.  I wish she would quit.

I think that there are two ways that you can look at this. There are a lot of lessons that we can learn about ourselves in relationships with what we put out there in the world that we can take with us moving forward.

I know how invalidating that can feel when our ex partner's are acting like a tool because she can't put herself in your perspective and assess how her behaviors may hurt your feelings. I would feel hurt too. A pwBPD have low emotional intelligence, difficulties managing their own emotions and understanding the emotional state of others.

How about indifference? Become indifferent to her behaviors. You neither hate it or like it. Make sense?

this is part of radically accepting a person. of course her actions, toward you, feel very personal.

That's right. As I said earlier, we can look at this more than one way and not let her behaviors affect you down the road with radical acceptance. I see ex snap chatting without a care in the world again  

I don't know, but having read the quotes you posted... I can only say that I was played masterfully. She knew exactly what to say to get the desired response. Also, I was told 1st hand by her how she manipulated others. Although she didn't perceive it as manipulation.

I think "social intelligence" could run high with them. If you think about it, maybe it was something they needed to learn in order to keep others around? Something to perhaps counter that fear of abandonment?

[Herodias]

I have always wondered the same thing. I used to think mine was so smart. Now I realize he really isn't. It's more about mind games.  Most of these are learned behaviors from childhood that are continued into adulthood. Read "Mind Games" by Pamela Kole. It's really interesting. Mine emailed me this morning and asked me, ":)o you have any plans this weekend?"  Now that is random... .I asked "why?"  No response. Am I supposed to read his mind? (Sometimes he thinks that I can.)  Is he wanting me to communicate with him? Is he wanting to get together? Is he wondering if I am dating someone so he can file adultery on me? Does he think I am dumb enough to answer that question? It's maddening! I think they just throw stuff out there to make us wonder and make us think of them... .It is all mind games. Mine watches tons of movies and was in the Marines. I think he just keeps studying behavior. Life is just a big game to him and he is out to win! At the same time he acts so infantile and he doesn't understand emotions... .at all!  He has even told me this... .He doesn't understand why people are so emotional he said. They are just different than us and see life through a different reality.

[NCEA]

I think it's really easy to confuse what people call here "fear of abandonment" ("they left us before we could leave them ! Because they have low self esteem!" with just getting board and wanting to jump from one relationship to another.

Also, many here were with their partners 3-5-8 years or more.

People don't "ghost" you after 8 years.

They simply fall out of love , and get bored and want something new. 3-5-8 years is a long time. Someone with low self asteem *for real* would stay only a few weeks or less, fearing he / she will be exposed.

A lot of the "literature" doesn't make sense to me, to be honest.

I'm starting to think that a lot of who we think are disordered are just sh|tty people.

Cut themselves?

Wanting to die?

A different person every day?

Clinically depressed?

No emotions at all?

Yea, maybe disordered.

The rest are just infantile, childish, immature, selfish, manipulative uneducated people. Does that make them sick? I don't know, I don't think so.

Maybe that's my biggest hurt, that maybe my ex wasn't even "special enough" to really be disordered. Maybe she's simply someone with a high libido, hate of men and low morals. And I'm angry for falling in love with her because, obviously, what does that mean about me?

Let's take "triangulation" for example. Do they really "play us"? Or is it just that they have bad manners and little else to talk about other then stories of the ex? And an inability to make a decision, between two people, because they HAVE THE OPTIONS and they're childish?

Did you ever watch a child trying to pick out a flavor of ice cream? They're like that. So they jump... .From one flavor to the next.

And can we really blame them? Life is short.

So what really is the issue here? In my case, that she did it after I already booked a flight and an Airbnb flat.

Does that make her sick? Or just a really awful person?

I don't know any more.

Just venting.

in 2 minutes it's NC 89. Amazing

[NCEA]

Hey BH,

Maybe he simply wanted to know what you were doing this weekend, out of curiosity?

Last night my friend, who I sleep with sometimes in the same bed with but don't have sex , asked me if she could come over.

I said yes.

Then after an hour she asked if I was expecting her, I said not really but if you want you can come, so she said "it was just a joke".

That's that's already a little more elaborated and does seem like a strange little game. But men are not as complicated as women and if he asked you just that one question... .I don't know if it's a game.

You answered a question with a question, he might have felt it hostile and didn't reply. You could simply say "it's non of your business" or tell him that you're busy.

I have always wondered the same thing. I used to think mine was so smart. Now I realize he really isn't. It's more about mind games.  Most of these are learned behaviors from childhood that are continued into adulthood. Read "Mind Games" by Pamela Kole. It's really interesting. Mine emailed me this morning and asked me, ":)o you have any plans this weekend?"  Now that is random... .I asked "why?"  No response. Am I supposed to read his mind? (Sometimes he thinks that I can.)  Is he wanting me to communicate with him? Is he wanting to get together? Is he wondering if I am dating someone so he can file adultery on me? Does he think I am dumb enough to answer that question? It's maddening! I think they just throw stuff out there to make us wonder and make us think of them... .It is all mind games. Mine watches tons of movies and was in the Marines. I think he just keeps studying behavior. Life is just a big game to him and he is out to win! At the same time he acts so infantile and he doesn't understand emotions... .at all!  He has even told me this... .He doesn't understand why people are so emotional he said. They are just different than us and see life through a different reality.

[MapleBob]

Children are VERY VERY emotionally manipulative. It's in adulthood that we develop ethics and morals and realize that everyone gets along better when they're not being manipulated. Some people didn't learn that, for numerous and varied reasons.

[Herodias]

Thanks NCEA, I didn't want to tell him of course and I wasn't sure I should say "none of your business" because I thought it would seem b___y... .I just think it's strange he even asked... .He hasn't in a long time.  I really think he was wondering if we could do lunch or something... .that is what I would think if I was "reading his mind" like he likes me to do. I am not interested... .maybe he wants to haul me off somewhere and do away with me so he doesn't have to pay for the divorce,  (seriously, who knows) That's how much I worry about how he is... .I really need to stay away from him. That's the sociopath side of him I am afraid of. It's a wonder why I am even sad. I miss the good version of him. Not safe though. When your's said "just a joke", to me that says she was just wondering if you would be willing to see her... .plus, she wanted you to want her to... .not to say that you weren't really expecting her. They want you to be really nice and really want them. Honestly, I think that's part of the push/pull thing. I think it's all part of the drama. They want you , then they fight with you, so you can kiss and make up. Then go back to fighting and start over. It all has to be like a fantasy. This man is complicated... .he has a feminine side,

[apollotech]

NCEA,

I think that what you're perceiving as manipulation is just a pwBPD attempting to regulate themselves. That's why you'll often see advice on these boards that their actions/statements/behaviors shouldn't be taken personally (easier said than done). Think about it like this, a skilled manipulator plies his/her craft in such a way as to not be discovered. This requires a high level of maturity and sophistication. In contrast, a pwBPD is right in your face with their maladapted tools.

[Learning_curve74]

It is learned behavior like the way children and dogs manipulate their parents and masters. They are immature like children because it's the immediate payoff that conditions this type of behavior; the problem is they don't make the connection to their tactics as being a poor long term bet. It's not some Machiavellian scheme, in fact if you can actually get a BPD to open up about their behavior and attitudes, they can be surprisingly naive and immature.

Often we may feel as if they are master manipulators, but that is part of why we find ourselves here on this community. Others are not so susceptible and may dismiss the BPDer out of hand. For example, one of my friends met my exgf for all of five minutes and later told me she was crazy and I was a fool to get involved with her.

[NCEA]

Good point. Some was in my face but others more subtle.

NCEA,

I think that what you're perceiving as manipulation is just a pwBPD attempting to regulate themselves. That's why you'll often see advice on these boards that their actions/statements/behaviors shouldn't be taken personally (easier said than done). Think about it like this, a skilled manipulator plies his/her craft in such a way as to not be discovered. This requires a high level of maturity and sophistication. In contrast, a pwBPD is right in your face with their maladapted tools.

[NCEA]

The girl who wanted to come to sleep over is not my ex who I think is BPD. Just a girl.

But you're right, it was a test. Last night she was out with friends, got drunk, and as always wrote me... ."I'm drunk". So yea, games from just a "regular" girl.

I know this sounds sexist and you're not going to like it but I see disordered women as just extreme versions of "normal" ones. They are "regular" women on turbo, that's all. More games, mors sexuality, more emotions, more manipulation, more lovers, more drama, more self esteem fluctuations... .More of everything.

But at the core it's just normal female behavior. All women are like that, but to much lesser degree.

And it's probably the same with disordered men - core masculine traits taken to the extreme.

Thanks NCEA, I didn't want to tell him of course and I wasn't sure I should say "none of your business" because I thought it would seem b___y... .I just think it's strange he even asked... .He hasn't in a long time.  I really think he was wondering if we could do lunch or something... .that is what I would think if I was "reading his mind" like he likes me to do. I am not interested... .maybe he wants to haul me off somewhere and do away with me so he doesn't have to pay for the divorce,  (seriously, who knows) That's how much I worry about how he is... .I really need to stay away from him. That's the sociopath side of him I am afraid of. It's a wonder why I am even sad. I miss the good version of him. Not safe though. When your's said "just a joke", to me that says she was just wondering if you would be willing to see her... .plus, she wanted you to want her to... .not to say that you weren't really expecting her. They want you to be really nice and really want them. Honestly, I think that's part of the push/pull thing. I think it's all part of the drama. They want you , then they fight with you, so you can kiss and make up. Then go back to fighting and start over. It all has to be like a fantasy. This man is complicated... .he has a feminine side,

[LostGhost]

Unfortunately I'm starting to agree with a lot of your conclusions NCEA. Having to recognize some of these facts about relationships and their convoluted dynamics leaves me feeling a little hopeless. I want a simple relationship. Someone to travel with, go out to dinners and movies, cuddle at home watching our favourite show, make love to, share a home and a life with. I'm not interested in mind games, threesomes, swinging, cheating or all the other stuff that seems so common. I don't feel like I will ever find that partner. I now fear any person I am with will be enthusiastic at fir and then just get bored and wonder what else is out there because "life is short" or "YOLO".

[NCEA]

No no. Don't worry. There are many such girls. Just be very clear on what you want and SCREEN the women you date. Ask all the questions about exes and past relationships and sexual adventures etc. Look for someone who is very clear about wanting monogamy. Sure it may not work but at least you'll have a better starting point.

Unfortunately I'm starting to agree with a lot of your conclusions NCEA. Having to recognize some of these facts about relationships and their convoluted dynamics leaves me feeling a little hopeless. I want a simple relationship. Someone to travel with, go out to dinners and movies, cuddle at home watching our favourite show, make love to, share a home and a life with. I'm not interested in mind games, threesomes, swinging, cheating or all the other stuff that seems so common. I don't feel like I will ever find that partner. I now fear any person I am with will be enthusiastic at fir and then just get bored and wonder what else is out there because "life is short" or "YOLO".

[bAlex]

The girl who wanted to come to sleep over is not my ex who I think is BPD. Just a girl.

But you're right, it was a test. Last night she was out with friends, got drunk, and as always wrote me... ."I'm drunk". So yea, games from just a "regular" girl.

I know this sounds sexist and you're not going to like it but I see disordered women as just extreme versions of "normal" ones. They are "regular" women on turbo, that's all. More games, mors sexuality, more emotions, more manipulation, more lovers, more drama, more self esteem fluctuations... .More of everything.

But at the core it's just normal female behavior. All women are like that, but to much lesser degree.

And it's probably the same with disordered men - core masculine traits taken to the extreme.

Thanks NCEA, I didn't want to tell him of course and I wasn't sure I should say "none of your business" because I thought it would seem b___y... .I just think it's strange he even asked... .He hasn't in a long time.  I really think he was wondering if we could do lunch or something... .that is what I would think if I was "reading his mind" like he likes me to do. I am not interested... .maybe he wants to haul me off somewhere and do away with me so he doesn't have to pay for the divorce,  (seriously, who knows) That's how much I worry about how he is... .I really need to stay away from him. That's the sociopath side of him I am afraid of. It's a wonder why I am even sad. I miss the good version of him. Not safe though. When your's said "just a joke", to me that says she was just wondering if you would be willing to see her... .plus, she wanted you to want her to... .not to say that you weren't really expecting her. They want you to be really nice and really want them. Honestly, I think that's part of the push/pull thing. I think it's all part of the drama. They want you , then they fight with you, so you can kiss and make up. Then go back to fighting and start over. It all has to be like a fantasy. This man is complicated... .he has a feminine side,

I agree with this. Everything IS amplified, the good and the bad. It's what makes them so addictive - the good is just soo damn good... and most likely what makes it so hard to detach from them.

[C.Stein]

It is learned behavior like the way children and dogs manipulate their parents and masters. They are immature like children because it's the immediate payoff that conditions this type of behavior; the problem is they don't make the connection to their tactics as being a poor long term bet. It's not some Machiavellian scheme, in fact if you can actually get a BPD to open up about their behavior and attitudes, they can be surprisingly naive and immature.

I agree with this.  While I am certain some pwBPD know exactly what they are doing, I think many do not.  It is a learned behavior without any real cognitive connection.  Like children they see certain actions/behavior produces a certain result without really understanding why.  I might even go so far as to say it becomes habitual behavior.  I know with my ex I have pointed out certain things she did and her response was one of unmistakeable cluelessness.   She truly could not see the connection between the behavior and the result (consequences).

[GoingBack2OC]

I'd agree. My sociopath / BPD ex pushed me so far one time I replied back in such anger and frustration - that I felt she was emotionally retarted. She's very smart, from an "academic" standpoint. But if I called her and said my parents just died in a car wreck; she'd likely respond "i had an argument with my boss today". 

Zero emotional IQ. She just simply didnt get it.

[willtimeheal]

I think it's really easy to confuse what people call here "fear of abandonment" ("they left us before we could leave them ! Because they have low self esteem!" with just getting board and wanting to jump from one relationship to another.

Also, many here were with their partners 3-5-8 years or more.

People don't "ghost" you after 8 years.

They simply fall out of love , and get bored and want something new. 3-5-8 years is a long time. Someone with low self asteem *for real* would stay only a few weeks or less, fearing he / she will be exposed.

A lot of the "literature" doesn't make sense to me, to be honest.

I'm starting to think that a lot of who we think are disordered are just sh|tty people.

Cut themselves?

Wanting to die?

A different person every day?

Clinically depressed?

No emotions at all?

Yea, maybe disordered.

The rest are just infantile, childish, immature, selfish, manipulative uneducated people. Does that make them sick? I don't know, I don't think so.

Maybe that's my biggest hurt, that maybe my ex wasn't even "special enough" to really be disordered. Maybe she's simply someone with a high libido, hate of men and low morals. And I'm angry for falling in love with her because, obviously, what does that mean about me?

Let's take "triangulation" for example. Do they really "play us"? Or is it just that they have bad manners and little else to talk about other then stories of the ex? And an inability to make a decision, between two people, because they HAVE THE OPTIONS and they're childish?

Did you ever watch a child trying to pick out a flavor of ice cream? They're like that. So they jump... .From one flavor to the next.

And can we really blame them? Life is short.

So what really is the issue here? In my case, that she did it after I already booked a flight and an Airbnb flat.

Does that make her sick? Or just a really awful person?

I don't know any more.

Just venting.

in 2 minutes it's NC 89. Amazing

This was interesting. My exBPD had a brilliant IQ but had no idea how to mange her emotions. Bpd or not she was just not a nice person. It was always about her and what she could get from the world.