Tense Monday morning after a good weekend

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

The things that matter more than the rules, I think ,are consistency. That kids know what the rules are and they don't change. The other thing that is important is that all adults in the home are consistent, so kids don't play one parent over the other. They may be allowed to do something in grandmas house but they know the difference between their home and other homes.

I don't know what your wife is doing. For one, I don't think it is good for the kids to have frequent sleepovers with mom. That blurs the boundaries between parent and child. Sure ,I fell asleep putting kids to bed many times, and also comforted them if they weren't feeling well. I've taken trips and stayed in a hotel room with them. But in general we don't have sleepovers if you get the gist. We don't eat cupcakes in bed as if we were playmates.

I'm pretty sensitive to these boundaries as they were blurred in my FOO. For the most part, BPD mom painted me black but she also acted as if I was a peer when I was a teen. I heard way TMI about her issues with my father. The nature of her illness was to triangulate, get us on her side ( it didn't work) but also because of her own emotional immaturity, she acted like we were peers.

So, to get on a soap box- what concerns me is inconsistent rules, different rules between parents, and poor boundaries between parent and child. If the marriage is such that she does not want to sleep with you, then better to put the kids together in a room, give her her own room, and keep that boundary. The kids are not her friends, and they are not a substitute for a spouse. That isn't good for them.

Now, how to discuss this with your wife- I have no idea. Sorry

[Notwendy]

The things that matter more than the rules, I think ,are consistency. That kids know what the rules are and they don't change. The other thing that is important is that all adults in the home are consistent, so kids don't play one parent over the other. They may be allowed to do something in grandmas house but they know the difference between their home and other homes.

I don't know what your wife is doing. For one, I don't think it is good for the kids to have frequent sleepovers with mom. That blurs the boundaries between parent and child. Sure ,I fell asleep putting kids to bed many times, and also comforted them if they weren't feeling well. I've taken trips and stayed in a hotel room with them. But in general we don't have sleepovers if you get the gist. We don't eat cupcakes in bed as if we were playmates.

I'm pretty sensitive to these boundaries as they were blurred in my FOO. For the most part, BPD mom painted me black but she also acted as if I was a peer when I was a teen. I heard way TMI about her issues with my father. The nature of her illness was to triangulate, get us on her side ( it didn't work) but also because of her own emotional immaturity, she acted like we were peers.

So, to get on a soap box- what concerns me is inconsistent rules, different rules between parents, and poor boundaries between parent and child. If the marriage is such that she does not want to sleep with you, then better to put the kids together in a room, give her her own room, and keep that boundary. The kids are not her friends, and they are not a substitute for a spouse. That isn't good for them.

Now, how to discuss this with your wife- I have no idea. Sorry

[Notwendy]

I had a thought. The role changes- could she be jealous- possibly threatened - by the fact that now, you are spending more time with the kids at home while she is at work. Could this be the reason she is keeping them up later and doing things like eating cupcakes with them? She could be missing her mom time and also fear they will get closer to you than to her.

My H is the chief wage earner, and he really showed no interest in things that he considered to be "women's work" . I was more egalitarian. I wished he would have taken more of an interest in these things, and I liked my part time job. Yet, even though this arrangement was how he wanted it, he would sometimes say things to me like " you are keeping the kids from me" " you are separating me from the kids" which I was not doing and didn't intend to do.  Now, it was actually his choice- to not spend time doing child care that made him feel as if the kids were more attached to me, but he saw it as my doing.

Your wife may not like the role reversal, and she likely misses her time with the kids. It would make sense considering BPD if she saw this as your doing- saw you as a dividing the kids from her, and now is scrambling to get that position back.

[formflier]

So, to get on a soap box- what concerns me is inconsistent rules, different rules between parents, and poor boundaries between parent and child. If the marriage is such that she does not want to sleep with you, then better to put the kids together in a room, give her her own room, and keep that boundary. The kids are not her friends, and they are not a substitute for a spouse. That isn't good for them.

Now, how to discuss this with your wife- I have no idea. Sorry

Yep, I could have written this myself. 

Back when I didn't have so much sleep apparatus I might fall asleep a time or two a year in a kids bed.  There was usually something odd going on (protecting them from "monster" or they were sick, who knows). 

In our last house I was pretty efficient at giving them the boot from my bed, even with Mommy there.  Every once in a blue moon I would let one stay, but this is a few times a year thing.

My best guess is to hang on until in a counseling situation to talk to her.

FF

[formflier]

I had a thought. The role changes- could she be jealous- possibly threatened - 

Very likely.

And she knows I like the time and actively push for it.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

FF, I suggest you make it a daily or weekly at least practice to spend 15 minutes or so thinking about what is or might be stressing your wife out, what she might be afraid of... .and do a bit of prep work on each one, pre planning the sort of thing you might be able to validate at an opportune moment. (Consider a top topic here)

As for the kids ... .I'd suggest you choose your battles. Maybe sleepovers and cupcakes aren't worth addressing with her.

Consistent parenting is a great goal. I suspect your wife would even agree. I also don't think she is capable of it. Any more than she is capable of being a consistent wife these days! I don't think much good will come of discussing this with her... .

Control battles with the kids seem pretty toxic, and you've had too many already. I wouldn't risk one over brushing teeth.

You still have to deal with or watch for the parental alienation issue... .if you can let lesser things go, do it.

[Notwendy]

FF, I recalled from some of your other posts that when you pushed for family time- and time with your kids, this was sabotaged- other family invited, the extra kid. There were times you had agreed on your time with the kids, and somehow this agreement was changed.

Now, you do have your time with the kids.

My H is a great dad, and personally, I push for Daddy time. I am not threatened by it. I know my kids love me. Since the tendency in my home is to hand the child related duties to me- I feel the kids need their Daddy time. I also recall my own relationship with my father and want my kids to have a relationship with their dad.

Boundaries are a principal here. Yes, we are parents, and a couple, but we are individuals as well. While kids should not be allowed to divide parents, they can get to know them as individuals. I have no issue with the kids getting to know their father on a one on one basis.

If I compare this to my own FOO, an individual relationship with my father was seen as a threat by BPD mom. The two were a pair, but with my mother's tendency to triangulate, if we spent time alone with dad she saw it as a threat- as if my spending time with dad would undermine her.

Then there is the change in roles and employment, and here's where I think it is important to be really honest, because if we are honest, we can admit that what we do forms at least a part of our identity, our sense of self- and if there is a poor sense of self, a lack of self esteem, a strained relationship- then what we do can play an even bigger part of that. I would propose that even for the most emotionally intact person, a loss or change of profession  is an adjustment and that you are experiencing this too. I know that when I left the work force to raise the kids, I lost a lot of validation that I got at work and this was an adjustment.

Considering your background, I would bet your wife's identity was a stay at home mom with a large family-and that in your community, this brought her validation. I have friends who are conservative Christians, stay at home moms, who home school. They are members of churches where a lot of the moms are also in the same position. This is considered to be the most important role. One of them left a high paying prestigious job to do this. My friends are happy- this is what they want to do. Now, I know that if they had to return to the workforce, they could and they would, but if it is possible for them to do this, then they choose this.

It would make sense that if your wife has a poor sense of self that she would be feeling this change very strongly and be struggling with it. It would also make sense to me if you were feeling this transition too- no matter how strong you may be. This is a transition. One thing I noticed in my FOO is that we had normal family transitions like every family- the empty nest, kids growing up and getting married, moves. retirement. It seemed though that these things that many families dealt with could be even more disruptive with a parent with BPD.

[Notwendy]

I want to add that perhaps the behaviors that seem so crazy and mean to you are driven by your wife's painful feelings and fears. She may feel her entire sense of self is lost- and that is frightening. When one has no solid sense of self and their sense of self is how others see them, then a change in that can feel as if their very being is attacked.

When I was finally able to hear my mother's perspective without feeling triggered, it astounded me how much she felt invalidated and victimized- by us as teens, by my father. To us, it appeared that he was a victim of her behavior, but I have to also consider that in her point of view is some validity. We were invalidating. My mother's sense of self seems to be derived from external sources. If she is seen in a good light, all is good, but this can be shattered in an instant by someone making a comment that she perceives as critical and this can ruin an otherwise good day. Hence the good day/bad day behavior. 

Your wife is hurting. You are too. I don't think a pw BPD who is hurting can see that others are hurting. They are overwhelmed by their own pain. This is a tough situation but if you can somehow see that she is hurting and have insight to it, perhaps it will reframe her behavior for you.

[formflier]

 

So, let's assume change of roles is the primary issue.

How to I validate or address it?

I do listen, am empathetic and validate what I can in her work situation.  Whenever she brings it up I try to be careful about being present to listen.

Hmmm,

More later, hint.  I found out this morning that I was "bad" at the bookmobile.

FF

[formflier]

Update:

Last night wife cooked dinner as per our compromise we worked out on Saturday morning.  It was wonderful.  I did note we at at 6pm, she had raged (previously) about having to eat at 5 because of a whole host of things.  Whatever.

After dinner we went to the local park, played tag, played on swings and then played some basketball.  It was a great time.  Anyone that saw us would think we were a wonderful loving family.  As we were walking away from park I couldn't believe what I saw.  The bookmobile was there at 7 something at night!  I had no idea.

Quick history:  Not sure if I have ever mentioned this here before.  In my previous county executive employment solid waste was my clear favorite department and library was number 2.  I spent lots of time in our library growing up.  Fond memories and still have a big conviction that kids need a habit of going to the library.

Kids all piled in.  The two librarians didn't have any other customers.  We got library cards, checked out books it was wonderful.  Well, until this morning.

She gets up a full hour early, I'm up doing my normal routine.  Remember the little 5 lb dog we have?  Coordination about the dog going potty is critical since she lives inside.  If in doubt we leave her in bathroom where she has indoor pee pad, food, kennel and all that.

I took her out and she appeared interested in going potty but didn't.  Odd for that time of the morning.  So, I pitched her in her room and figured I would look after her again later.

At some point my wife asked where the dog was and I told her.  In a dictatorial voice she directed me to let the dog out.  I ignored the voice (didn't complain) and asked if she had taken her potty yet or noticed anything about that this morning.  Zero response as wife walked away.  So, I went on about my business.  Nope, didn't let dog out.

Well, in about 5 minutes here comes the stomping, flings the bathroom door open with lots of loud questions about why I can't do what I'm told.  

Perhaps I should have ignored the entire thing, not sure.  I went and asked if there was something she needed help with (I had idea what was going on but wasn't sure).  She did lower her voice to almost reasonable, so I stayed engaged.  I tried some active listening and she is basically pissed that I didn't follow her command.  I asked if she heard my follow up questions, she really didn't answer directly but indicated that a follow up meant I didn't trust her.  (I didn't try to validate that, but I should have.  I'm open to suggestions on how).

She directly asked why I didn't let the dog out.  I told her about staying outside for a while and dogs behavior, lack of information from her and figured it would sort itself out.  "But I told you, "  I again tried sort of a SET about frustration to not be listened to with the T being "I will NOT do as I am told, I MAY do as I am asked".

This sort of opened a rabbit trail for complaints about me not thinking she can handle the bookmobile ?  Apparently I said something to the librarian about age ranges of our kids.  My wife and I were both talking to her, she would answer and fill something out, like how many kids in age range 0-4 and so on.  I would answer the next.  She asked if I was trying to prove that I was a Dad or something?  

I indicated I didn't understand that enough to provide a response (again, open to suggestions on how to be better).  And she switched back to a loud, mocking  "FF will you PLEASE do this today and PLEASE do that, "  I said I would be happy to discuss later when there was less energy in the conversation and left the room.  She flung some words at me and I stayed in the other room.

Well, I thought about giving her space (yep was thinking about you guys).  So I went to tell her that I was going to go walk for a few minutes and I apologized for "being in her space" at the bookmobile.  Weird, I could see her relax.

I came back 20 minutes later, all seemed normal.  We had breakfast together and all was normal until time to take kids to the bus.

I came back after dropping off S13 and she started heading everyone out the the car.  I said "I thought I was taking S7 and D10 today as per our conversation on Saturday."  

She stayed calm and said, "Well, you will have to take a different vehicle and since you don't have one ready, I will take them today."

I said, "The van is running and ready to go (my vehicle) and your vehicle is warn and ready as well."  She lost it.  You are being ridiculous! is what she said.  "I can't believe you are doing this!"

I walked out and told the two kids to hop in the van.  To her credit she told them that I wanted to take them to the bus stop and she got in her vehicle.  

Well she follows me down there.  As we get turned around she pulls in in front of my van and blocks me in and sits there.  She and D2 and D5 are in her car, I am in van with S7 and D10.  I ignored it and had a great conversation for about 10-15 minutes with the kids in my car.  Bus comes, kids get out, my wife makes big deal about calling them over for a goodbye kiss.  Wife drives off and I drive home.

So, there you go.  I'm looking forward to my day.  Was productive yesterday and hope to be productive again today.  T appointment in the middle of the day.

FF

[formflier]

 

Followed by a completely normal and kind text exchange.  FYI:  I have posted a bazillion things on ebay and c-list.  We have identified stuff that doesn't go in this house and are having success getting it sold and gone. 


ff wife: Honey that's great abt Craigslist and eBay, Glad u r having success selling our stuff, Please think about getting the shelves up in the laundry room and big pantry so we can get more organized 8:12 AM

Me: Yep, agree. Hope to get those up today. I'm about to head up and try to find that power supply. 8:13 AM

ff wife: Had a great time at the park last night, Want to do it again after dinner? 8:50 AM

ff wife: U r cooking tonight right? 8:50 AM

ff wife: d19 is handling her docbstuff today 8:50 AM

Me: yes, more park! 8:55 AM

Me: yes I will cook. We need to use the rolls. What was that thing where the rolls were on top and bottom and cooked with meat in the middle 8:55 AM

ff wife: Will send u link 8:56 AM

Me: thanks 8:56 AM

ff wife: Hawaiian rolls, lunch meat and cheese 8:57 AM

Me: ugg, have to let them sit overnight. I will figure something out for dinner. Will prep those rolls for another night 8:59 AM

ff wife: Spaghetti is easy, We hv lots of bread, Grilled cheeses 9:01 AM

ff wife: There are leftover burgers and hot dogs 9:05 AM

[Grey Kitty]

OK, I see a big picture issue here around the kids.

You and your wife are getting into control battles about who takes the kids to the bus stop, whether they are working on projects you are supervising, etc.

Your wife has a very bad habit of dragging the kids into berating you for not doing what she commands. (Which goes into parental alienation.

You've have a history of wanting quality time with your kids, and your wife does things which thwart it, or change the mix, either adding others, or removing kids from the mix you were planning on.

Anyhow, I think it is time for you to work out in your head where YOUR boundaries are. You seem to be working one around parental alienation. (No need to use the phrase with her; label is for discussion here)

The other stuff--really work out what is "over the line" and what is "acceptable." Because you want to do firm boundary enforcement on stuff that crosses the line. And on stuff that is unpleasant but acceptable, you can avoid feeding invalidation and conflict into your marriage by not testing/questioning/fighting at all when you back down.

I'm very aware that she often makes plans that involve you, and only informs you when you start acting not according to plan.

That's why you should work it out as well as you can in advance, so you can very quickly decide whether to go along gracefully, or make a stand. Yes, the line will be an iterative thing for you to figure out. But as you work it it will get clearer.

... .once you have that seeming pretty clear, you can also work on validation.

Your wife is feeling overwhelmed by her job and her obligations as a mother combined. She's not comfortable with her inability to spend the time she used to spend with her kids. There is plenty in there to validate. (When she's not busy berating you for failing to mop the floor!)

[Notwendy]

I see patterns but then a focus on the day to day things. At one time, you could be all playing in the park and things are good. Then, it's gone wrong. A good weekend then, a bad Monday. One way of looking at this is that this is how life is. Ups/downs, then more ups and downs all in a day. One moment you're the good guy, then you are the bad guy.

This is your life with a BPD wife who isn't all bad, isn't all good, and you are the same. I'm not dismissing the issues, but a woman who can teach and raise 8 kids has some serious strengths to consider. You guys have some pretty steamy moments- maybe not all the time but you do. You have some significantly good times together.

One episode during a good time at the park does not mean the family is out of control. Neither is eating cupcakes in bed a few nights, maybe even more than that. Two of your kids have made it to college. Again, I am not dismissing the issues, but something has to be going right enough of the time to achieve the order, marriage, and family that you have.

Maybe part of radical acceptance is accepting that life with a BPD person is sort of a roller coaster, and to consider that as part of the deal. You don't want to unravel the big picture, but examining, every text, mood swing, what crazy MIL says today, may be looking too closely.

[formflier]

Maybe part of radical acceptance is accepting that life with a BPD person is sort of a roller coaster, and to consider that as part of the deal. You don't want to unravel the big picture, but examining, every text, mood swing, what crazy MIL says today, may be looking too closely.

Yep, I get this.

Part of why I am/was looking so closely is there may be a "new normal" in this new location.  What we have had for last few days MAY work for me long term.

What we had for a couple weeks of sleep deprivation, police showing up, father in laws doing the sugar ray thing, that WILL NOT work.

More later,

FF

[formflier]

 

Hey guys, couple things I would like you guys to consider and give opinions on.  A few days ago I said something to the effect that if I was going to make a mistake, I was going to "lean in" to the r/s rather than "lean out".  In other words, push for closeness rather than push for separateness.

Anyway, been trying to think about big picture stuff, "mindset", and I'm wondering if my "lean in" attitude is a mistake.

If I leaned out do you think that would be better from a "push pull" point of view?  Plus, I agree, it's obvious she is sending signals that she needs space, wants space, whatever.


She is continuing the have a weird conversation pattern and then text about things after that.  I've pretty much stopped ham handed efforts at validation via text and focus on information and clarification.  If something really obvious is there to validate, I give it a shot.

Anyway there is the theory that says keeping some lines of communication open is better than saying via text that I will only discuss "issues" in private (face to face).

However, there is the other theory that says putting something in writing lets her sit there and look at it again and again and twist it beyond all recognition. 

Looking forward to comments and input.

FF

[Fian]

Personally, I think a text is harder to twist than a memory of a conversation.  So I like the idea of having something written down.

[Notwendy]

Maybe a copy of Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" would be an interesting read. It was not written for BPD and I think the example is husband pulling away from wife, but it may give you some ideas. I read it years ago and thought it was good. It is written from your spiritual perspective, but also Dobson is a psychologist and so that perspective with regards to relationships is also a foundation. I read this during a period where I didn't understand the marriage and read a lot of books from different perspectives.

The push pull plays out in many relationships. I think it has a unique place where BPD is concerned. I think the idea of leaving space is best considered from the self care perspective- not a an action with intent to affect them. I also don't think aiming at either extreme is helpful- leaning too far in and especially withdrawing in reaction- going way far out. Neutral- a steady, but not intrusive or reactive presence seems to be the best place I have found for me. Keeping whatever communication open is helpful. If the texts get too heated, texting " I love you honey but I can't respond well by text so maybe we can talk about this later at ( time)" may be better than a strict control on communications. Trying to avoid the escalations with strict control of how she communicates might be more frustrating to her than to just let her communicate and see how it goes. The control is with us. Our rectivity, or fear of escalation is the gasoline on the fire.  

[formflier]

 

I ordered the love must be tough and straight talk by dobson.  

Currently reading The Emotionally Destructive Relationship by Leslie Vernick.  

I like the written down thing.  I really like it.  My wife hates it.  Well she hates it when she has to face it.  

"We never discussed abc"

me:  "On 01/01/16 we have written discussion of issue and I have a text from you saying you are in agreement with the plan in our text log"

her:  "You faked it and I will not be doing it, "

Granted, stuff like this was from several years ago.  It feels icky to me to have a written record and then pretend it doesn't exist.

The written record is not to bash people over the head with, it provides a starting point for further discussion (in my world).  I get it her world is different.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Documentation, recordings, and written records are for courts and police if they are needed. (So make them and keep them in your back pocket)

If your wife is experiencing emotional distress (often she is), and has no better coping mechanism than blaming you for it (Also often), she's going to find some way to twist reality to match her need to be angry and blame you. Doesn't matter whether there is a permanent record of whatever she's blaming you for or not.

"Proving" that she's wrong will only invalidate her and make things worse. This is the time to disengage. JUST DO IT.

[formflier]

"Proving" that she's wrong will only invalidate her and make things worse. This is the time to disengage. JUST DO IT.

Yep, totally agree.

I used to be really good and proving myself innocent.  Did a lot of damage to the r/s.

The upcoming biblical counseling will be interesting.  I doubt there will be much middle ground.  Either she will get on the road to facing herself and healing or the r/s will continue to collapse.

They are big on journaling as a couple.  My wife's concerns about "honesty" led her to be the "recorder" for our talks and discussions.  So, she would write down what was talked about and the general agreement.

We were supposed to go back to that journal and appreciate the progress we made as a couple.  Once her writing began to constrain her ability to warp reality, she bolted.  I knew nothing about rules and lessons then.

Now, my general plan is to "not rescue" her from the different reality in her head and what she writes on paper.  I certainly won't persecute her with it either.

Perhaps there is part of her that knows this and wants to go face it.  I doubt she is thinking that clearly.

Oh, I love journaling.  I know enough to stay centered about it and do it but not be giddy about it.

Thoughts?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

$.02 on the biblical counseling. Scratch that--I've not had much luck with biblical stuff in general, so I'll ignore the "biblical" part and give you $.02 on counseling.

Couples therapy of any sort tends to go very badly with a pwBPD. Sometimes the pwBPD is able to snow the counselor and get them to blame the non- for everything. (Not a good outcome) Otherwise, if the counselor figures this out, and challenges the pwBPD, the counselor is painted black. Few counselors are specialized in dealing with BPD, and can manage this well, and get progress working.

That's why DBT is done the with two or three different T's involved, so that one isn't painted black when the others are, to keep progress going.

Obviously, it is worth going, and doing the best you can at it. But keep your expectations of progress on her part low--if she's not able to make progress with you at home, she's not likely to make much more with a counselor.

[formflier]

  But keep your expectations of progress on her part low--if she's not able to make progress with you at home, she's not likely to make much more with a counselor.

Yep, I am doing this.  However, this also contributes to a bit of negativity on my part about the future viability of the r/s.

If there are negative tools that she is able to put away (parental alienation, sleep deprivation, speaking with utter contempt, I could go on, ).  Then I have high hopes.

Now, I realize we all have bad days.  A blip here and there of eccentric or odd behavior is livable.

Will have to think on this more.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I don't mean that to indicate that it is hopeless.

I mean that to indicate that the odds of this biblical counselor saving the day quickly are really poor.

You are in a relationship with somebody with mental illness. You have to do 90% of the effective work, because you can do more than she can. It sucks, but it will be this way and suck, whether you accept it or not!

You know how to do this work. You've got the tools. You know which ones you need more practice with. Keep up the good work on it.

[KateCat]

formflier, when you speak of your wife "facing herself and healing," is that an optimism that comes to you from your Christian faith?

[Cat Familiar]

On that note, does your wife even think she needs to "face herself and heal?"

[empath]

Currently reading The Emotionally Destructive Relationship by Leslie Vernick.

Vernick's books are really quite good; I read The Emotionally Destructive Marriage as part of my multitude of reading -- because I needed something that came at the issue from a Christian perspective that was also sound from a relational perspective. It is surprisingly hard to find both perspectives. The Boundaries books by Cloud and Townsend are also good; I read Beyond Boundaries recently, too.

I've had issues with h when I have documentation of something that is contrary to what he says, but the dysregulation usually ends with him abiding with the documentation. He doesn't like it though, and the fact that I relied on the doc comes back up at certain times. It's a bit like the CPS involvement that you had -- comes back up. My advice is not to use the documentation unless necessary; it is more for your protection and sanity because it can be crazy-making to be in a relationship like this.

[formflier]

On that note, does your wife even think she needs to "face herself and heal?"

No.

She has said, in a half dysregulated state, that she is going to get me in counseling and get me the "help" I need.

FF

[KateCat]

If your wife suffers from PPD (and I think maybe you've been given an indication by a mental health professional that this is likely) then she will almost certainly not be able to "face herself" or "heal."

I think I'm with Grey Kitty in believing that progress for you will begin with greater understanding and acceptance of your wife's clinical disorder.

I wince when reading that you continue to "probe," to "take the temperature," to expect to "walk her back" toward healthy thoughts and behaviors. This is so threatening to a person with paranoia.

Those other suggestions about working the tools offered here, being less reactive, being strong and consistent. Relying 90% on yourself for changes in your family dynamic. Those are the winning ways, I think.

[flourdust]

Here's my experience with marriage counseling with a pwBPD. This is an N of 1, and my BPDwife has a diagnosis. She accepts (more or less) the diagnosis but not that it implies any accountability or indication of problems on her part.

The counselor has a background in psychology. He claims to be conversant with BPD.

Sessions often have him trying to redirect her -- "That's not what I heard him say." "OK, but can we put that aside for now and address this issue?" "Can we agree that this is a positive step that we could try?"

The same sort of circular talk that she uses with me -- she uses with him. His questions don't often get direct answers, and she'll deflect to blaming me or complaining about side issues. She's lost it a few times and stormed out. Other times, I've agreed to whatever the incremental change is but it's not clear if she's agreeing or not.

It's really not going anywhere. No, let me take that back. One thing it has done has been to help show me that the problems are more pervasive than just how we interact. Her disordered thinking extends to a third party who is trying in a neutral fashion to create a better environment for us to communicate. So, there's that -- not great if the goal is to save the relationship, but helpful in providing more context for how deep-rooted these problems are.

[KateCat]

Believe it nor not, PPD is thought to have a poorer prognosis than BPD.  :'(

[empath]

Self-reflection is a daunting and frightening task for a pwBPD; the underlying shame and fear usually prevents them from doing much of that kind of thing.