And, once again, why NC is so important

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

We'd done 7 days NC, which is the longest ever, and yesterday for the first time, I had some conversations with friends and family which left me thinking that maybe I could have a future that would be better without her in it, some glimmers of hope... .

And then I got a phone call in the early hours of the morning. It woke me up, I ignored it, but if course was then awake, alternating between worrying if something was wrong (ex has chronic health condition) and thinking that it was nothing to do with me, feeling cross that she'd called... .Eventually, when my alarm clock went off, I sent a text saying I had a missed call, hoped she wasn't sick or had a friend to help her if she was, take care.

And got a reply saying sorry, it was a mistake, the call accidently happened when she was deleting my number, it won't happen again as she no longer has my number. She is healthy and hopes I am now too.

I replied thanks for the reassurance about her health, I'd deleted her number too so maybe now we could both just get on with our lives. She replied with a smiley face and kiss.

So that's all that happened, all very pleasant, probably a genuine mistake.

But of course I've gone into overdrive, have had to virtually bite my own arm off to not text her, (to say what? Let's live happily ever after?) and wondering if it was a mistake, what does it mean blah blah, and spent the day attached to my phone hoping for a call or text, (knowing that I'd reject it anyway as no good would come of it) and all the plans of yesterday seem dumb and pointless.

And so, back to NC day 1, again, feeling just as bad as a week ago, and a week before that, and a week before that... .Sigh.

[La Carotte]

We'd done 7 days NC, which is the longest ever, and yesterday for the first time, I had some conversations with friends and family which left me thinking that maybe I could have a future that would be better without her in it, some glimmers of hope... .

And then I got a phone call in the early hours of the morning. It woke me up, I ignored it, but if course was then awake, alternating between worrying if something was wrong (ex has chronic health condition) and thinking that it was nothing to do with me, feeling cross that she'd called... .Eventually, when my alarm clock went off, I sent a text saying I had a missed call, hoped she wasn't sick or had a friend to help her if she was, take care.

And got a reply saying sorry, it was a mistake, the call accidently happened when she was deleting my number, it won't happen again as she no longer has my number. She is healthy and hopes I am now too.

I replied thanks for the reassurance about her health, I'd deleted her number too so maybe now we could both just get on with our lives. She replied with a smiley face and kiss.

So that's all that happened, all very pleasant, probably a genuine mistake.

But of course I've gone into overdrive, have had to virtually bite my own arm off to not text her, (to say what? Let's live happily ever after?) and wondering if it was a mistake, what does it mean blah blah, and spent the day attached to my phone hoping for a call or text, (knowing that I'd reject it anyway as no good would come of it) and all the plans of yesterday seem dumb and pointless.

And so, back to NC day 1, again, feeling just as bad as a week ago, and a week before that, and a week before that... .Sigh.

[zeus123]

No contact means:

NO talking to them no matter what happens and no matter what you hear.

NO letting them talk to you. NO listening to anything they say,NO "hearing them out".

NO letting them in your house and NO going to their house.

NO phone calls and NO returning voicemail messages.

NO sending or responding to E-Mails.

NO meetings to "talk things over" or "work things out".

NO communication at all except through attorneys.NOT THERAPISTS.

NO cards or letters and NO responding to cards or letters.NO birthday cards.NO Christmas cards.

NO gifts and NO accepting gifts.

NO exceptions for holidays, birthdays, or anniversaries.

NO visits, including hospital visits.

NO public pleasantries. if you run into them in a public place, ignore them, turn your back,and walk away.

NO discussing them with anybody who has contact with them.

NO listening to news about them.

NO giving other people information about you they could carry back to your abuser.

NO invitation to your big events and NO responding to invitation they send you.

NO responding to news about marriage,having a baby,new job,retiring,moving,taking a trip,sick,dying or dead.

NO big announcement or telling them anything about your life.

NO CONTACT means NO CONTACT. nothing, nada, zilch, zip, zero.

BPD/NPD do not understand limits, maintaining a comfortable distance, taking it slow, or being cordial while still keeping someone at arm's length. they only deal with extremes, and must be totally enmeshed with you, with no boundaries or restrictions. it's all or nothing with them.

NO CONTACT is THE END. you have already wasted time trying everything possible to have a nice peaceful relationship, ad nothing worked. there's nothing left to try. it's OVER. it's time to put a period on it, walk away, and never look back. time to finally live your life. time to do what you must to protect yourself and your loved once from evil people who would do you harm. if you break NO CONTACT, you will only regret it. if you keep NO CONTACT, you will live your life in peace, freedom, and safety.

[Lonely_Astro]

No contact means:

NO talking to them no matter what happens and no matter what you hear.

NO letting them talk to you. NO listening to anything they say,NO "hearing them out".

NO letting them in your house and NO going to their house.

NO phone calls and NO returning voicemail messages.

NO sending or responding to E-Mails.

NO meetings to "talk things over" or "work things out".

NO communication at all except through attorneys.NOT THERAPISTS.

NO cards or letters and NO responding to cards or letters.NO birthday cards.NO Christmas cards.

NO gifts and NO accepting gifts.

NO exceptions for holidays, birthdays, or anniversaries.

NO visits, including hospital visits.

NO public pleasantries. if you run into them in a public place, ignore them, turn your back,and walk away.

NO discussing them with anybody who has contact with them.

NO listening to news about them.

NO giving other people information about you they could carry back to your abuser.

NO invitation to your big events and NO responding to invitation they send you.

NO responding to news about marriage,having a baby,new job,retiring,moving,taking a trip,sick,dying or dead.

NO big announcement or telling them anything about your life.

NO CONTACT means NO CONTACT. nothing, nada, zilch, zip, zero.

BPD/NPD do not understand limits, maintaining a comfortable distance, taking it slow, or being cordial while still keeping someone at arm's length. they only deal with extremes, and must be totally enmeshed with you, with no boundaries or restrictions. it's all or nothing with them.

NO CONTACT is THE END. you have already wasted time trying everything possible to have a nice peaceful relationship, ad nothing worked. there's nothing left to try. it's OVER. it's time to put a period on it, walk away, and never look back. time to finally live your life. time to do what you must to protect yourself and your loved once from evil people who would do you harm. if you break NO CONTACT, you will only regret it. if you keep NO CONTACT, you will live your life in peace, freedom, and safety.

BOOM! 

"it's all or nothing with them"... .provided it's on their terms.  At no point is anything about you.  Ever.  It's ALWAYS about what they want, need, desire, etc.  If you ask for anything in return, that'll be the end of the relationship.  Maybe that's just my experience, but that's been my experience.

[La Carotte]

Thanks zeus123, your list made me smile in its honesty and bluntness! Apart from the fact I don't believe my ex is an evil person, I do agree with all you say, impossible as it seems just now. Worryingly for me, I identify with the enmeshment and all or nothing thinking to quite a large extent.

Lonely_Astro, it's been my experience too unfortunately, although she does sometimes tell me she's got back in touch because she feels sorry for me as I'm obviously struggling with the breakup - very kind of her!

northernlight- are you broken up with your pwBPD? For pretty much a year now my ex and I have been "broken up" but have seen each other and texted regularly, although the periods of NC getting longer- we did a week this time, and have done 5 days occasionally. It's torture, it's kept us both stuck in a situation where we're not really repairing or developing our relationship and we're not moving on either. I do believe it's finally over now, and we will keep apart, (although I'm aware I've said that more than once before) and although it physically pains me when I think about it, and feels impossible to do just now, I do know it's for the best and will get easier.

As for going NC and saying or not- it's up to you and your situation, we've done both, but my personal opinion is that it's kinder to say that's what you're doing. And then do it.

You say you're scared of him and his anger. What does that really mean in practical physical terms and what can you do about it? I've given in to ex in the past because I was scared of her anger, not phsically, but her smearing campaigns and threats of made up charges against me. I know this isn't right but it's frightening. I also don't keep her blocked for the same reason- it antagonises her. I can live with that one, although it would be easier if she was blocked. But then I'd be wondering if she was getting in touch anyway 

You say about meeting someone else to help you be strong. I've done that after past relationships, but have decided that this time I'm not going to. Firstly because I don't think it would be fair to inflict myself on someone, but also becasue this time I'm determined to go it alone just to prove to myself I can.

Good luck with whatever you decide. It will be so very hard. Keep posting on here, you're sure to get good support and advice.

[zeus123]

FIT, BPD's have no EMPATHY, that is what i meant by EVIL!

[Confused108]

I really don't believe your ex made a mistake in calling you trying to delete your number. These individuals are manipulators and pathological liars. You can't believe the Lord's Prayer outta their mouths. Mine pulled the same $hit on me as well. It must have been 1 to 2 weeks after she dumped me and she called my house phone. 1 ring and hung up. When I called her back she would not pick up her cell. I left a message for her asking if she was ok. She then texted me and said oh this was a mistake , she was trying to call back a client of hers and since my house # was the last call she made she dialed it by accident! This really was a mistake she said at the end. So your gonna tell me you have NOT used or dialed on your cell for over a week?  Bull $hit lies! And when she sent me a long message about how she doesn't want me etc and that we should remain friends and as long as I'm clear about that etc. at the very end signs it XoXoXo! You sick B$tch! So no my friend your ex made no mistake about calling you! Just stay the hell away from her bc no good can come of it!

[La Carotte]

She turned up at my house last night - and when I asked why, said it was partially because she was passing by and it was  just habit... .   

[Confused108]

She is trying to recycle you! When my ex came back she would send me Pms on Facebook all the time. She then would have a normal convo with me that eventually ended up with did you k ow your mom yelled at me? My mother was responsible for our breakup as teens in 87. She did this from Feb 2013 to June of 2015. I knocked her down as quick as she mentioned it to me. Then in June of last year she started to pm me at 12 midnight saying a lady in another building was sitting naked by her computer ! Crazy stuff. I then was stupid and replied and then again she mentioned is and my Mother and well here I am. The point she was so sweet and vulnerable to get me back in her grasp. Then after she had me within days push /pull, testing me etc. The beginning of Sept dumped me and didn't look back! She sat patiently for me to take her bait since she found me on FB in 2013. Do not trust ur ex. She is looking to worm her way back into your life! With me I had NO IDEA what BPD was. I had no idea my ex  was so mentally sick. If I knew my situation would never have happened.

[Confused108]

FIT, BPD's have no EMPATHY, that is what i meant by EVIL!

So TRUE my friend So TRUE!

[Driver]

FIT, BPD's have no EMPATHY, that is what i meant by EVIL!

This is not quite true. Although I agree 1000% with everything you said about NC, and although it is true that NPD have no empathy, this is not the case for pwBPD. PwBPD do have empathy, I'd say much more than any nonBPD! However, due to the fact that they see things in black and white, when they paint us black they go through the same emotional state as children meaning that when they are angry they hate us. This may mislead us to believe that they have no empathy, but in reality when they calm down, they do realize what they did and they feel guilt to such an extent that it makes them feel miserable even more. It's not easy for us, but neither it is for them, that's why many of them hurt themselves and even try to commit suicide. Their pain is unbearable.

[zeus123]

driver,

EMPATHY is the action of understanding, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another-even if you haven't had the same experience. put simply, it's the ability to put oneself into the shoes of another person to understand her emotions and feelings.whether or not people with BPD have empathy is a controversial issue, and you can find studies that say that. "A dysfunctional pattern of empathetic capacity may account for behavioral difficulties in BPD", and "the findings thus support a conceptualization of BPD as involving deficits in both inferring others' mental states [being able to put themselves in another's person's shoes] and being emotionally attuned to another person." and officially. the proposed revision of BPD in the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5(the clinician's "bible" for diagnosis and treatment) contains the following proposed criteria under impairments in interpersonal functioning: compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity(i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities." A psychology blog posted by Dr. Eric A Fertuck. Ph.D discusses a study that concluded that people with BPD have "enhanced sensitivity to the mental states of other" based on their heightened ability to recognize the mental state of people. he does not say, however, that this ability enables people with BPD (when not under stress) to demonstrate more empathetic behavior toward their loved ones. EMPATHY is an emotion, and people with BPD have low emotional intelligence. this means they have difficulty knowing their own emotions, managing their emotions, and recognizing emotions in others. people with BPD are nearly always in emotional overload, encumbered by negative painful feelings constantly begging for attention. so when there seems to lack empathy, it's not a deficit so much as a complication of trying to pay attention to your feelings and desires when they're consumed by their own. conclusion: they lack empathy!.

[khibomsis]

FIT, good on you for being strong! You managed seven days and when she contacted you, you BIFFed like an expert.  Being an older sister I can't resist saying I told you so. I said this ex would contact you again and indeed she did. When I read your first post in this thread I immediately said" ex will now engineer a meeting in person" and so it turned out. Strange this. BPD is the twilight zone, I have never been able to fully understand it until I grasped that it is the place with no rules. The minute you make one generalization their behaviour contradicts it. I have come to think of this feature as the defining element of BPD, and tho no expert, I think an uBPD mother, a BPD niece and an ex gives me some insight.We can never fully understand it because if we did we would have to be BPD ourselves, if that makes sense.  That being said, they can be surprisingly predictable at times. I personally try not to condemn people although I can loathe their behaviour, but the thing about your ex is that she gets something out of rejecting you. Whatever it is, my suss is that she will keep on seeking you out for the purpose of making you feel bad because she has a psychological need to do so. Can't tell you why the need but what you say of her behaviour over the past few years points to this. As you well know, it is up to you to take the driver's seat in this situation. And you can because she needs you to feel bad about yourself for some reason of her own. Do you need that? And please don't keep us in suspense! When she appeared on your doorstep what did you do?  ,khib

 

[La Carotte]

Ah, khibomsis, your post made me smile a lot- of course you were right! And probably are about your future predictions too... .However, the good news is that I do feel as though Im at least sitting on the driving seat... .

Of course you know what Im going to say about how I reacted when she turned up... .But... it was probably the most useful of these "we've broken up now let me turn up a week later to reiterate that we're broken up" conversations.

She came in as she usually does looking for clues of other people, and asking questions about my actions, and I started feeling cross. So I'm very happy to say that instead, I said, we're both doing what we usually do,  I know that this isn't why you came , so can we not do that? And we didn't.

She said she'd come partially out of habit   and partially because she felt bad about the fact that shed stood me up the week before when I'd asked to meet for a closure kind of walk as a respectful way of ending things. (We ignored the fact she was in my house when I'd asked her not to come, and my D18 was raging upstairs)

We both spoke honestly and kindly about many things and about the fact that we loved each other very much, had wanted and still did want a future together but neither of us believed in any way that we could do it, but we'd both tried our best and were glad for the time we'd shared, blah blah. What was great was that there was no blame from either of us, and we both accepted responsibility for our bits in the downfall. She acknowledged the awfulness of things she'd said, and how supportive I've been. The one thing she said that grated a bit was when she said she was sorry that she couldn't be the person I needed her to be, but actually, I suppose that is true. We also spoke of how I couldn't fix this, or her, no matter how much we both wanted me to be able to.

It was good for us both I think in that we were both kind and gentle and neither of us behaved or spoke in any way we regretted after (at least I didnt, and I don't imagine she did either). I realised today that one of the reasons I usually feel compelled to get in touch afterwards is either I've said something I regret, and have to make it ok, or she's said something that's frustrated me and so I have to address it... And neither of those is true this time so I've felt really calm all day with no desire to contact her. She said several things that upset or irritated me but they were real, not crazy making delusions or accusations or nasties, so that's ok, they just serve to reinforce my belief I can't be with her any more.

We hugged and were kind, and then she left, and it felt like you'd kind of want it to feel when you break up with someone. Ok. Sad but real and reasonable.

Since then I've had a couple of texts from her this morning, one asking a pointless question to which I replied blandly but ok, and then one that was "mistskenly" sent to me instead of her colleague with the same name. I pointed out the mistake, that's all, and got a thank you. That's all. And nothing since... .

And so, do we think this is the end of it? It would be so nice to think that this was it, we ended it all finally, civilly and kindly... .Are you a betting woman, khibomsis?

Ps , what's BIFFed? Am I glad I did it?

[Confused108]

driver,

EMPATHY is the action of understanding, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another-even if you haven't had the same experience. put simply, it's the ability to put oneself into the shoes of another person to understand her emotions and feelings.whether or not people with BPD have empathy is a controversial issue, and you can find studies that say that. "A dysfunctional pattern of empathetic capacity may account for behavioral difficulties in BPD", and "the findings thus support a conceptualization of BPD as involving deficits in both inferring others' mental states [being able to put themselves in another's person's shoes] and being emotionally attuned to another person." and officially. the proposed revision of BPD in the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5(the clinician's "bible" for diagnosis and treatment) contains the following proposed criteria under impairments in interpersonal functioning: compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity(i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities." A psychology blog posted by Dr. Eric A Fertuck. Ph.D discusses a study that concluded that people with BPD have "enhanced sensitivity to the mental states of other" based on their heightened ability to recognize the mental state of people. he does not say, however, that this ability enables people with BPD (when not under stress) to demonstrate more empathetic behavior toward their loved ones. EMPATHY is an emotion, and people with BPD have low emotional intelligence. this means they have difficulty knowing their own emotions, managing their emotions, and recognizing emotions in others. people with BPD are nearly always in emotional overload, encumbered by negative painful feelings constantly begging for attention. so when there seems to lack empathy, it's not a deficit so much as a complication of trying to pay attention to your feelings and desires when they're consumed by their own. conclusion: they lack empathy!.

BINGO! I know mine lacked a ton of it! I was is a near fatal car accident she knew about and didn't even call or text me to see how I was. I had to text her and she was already devaluing me. 2 days later she dumped me. So yea BINGO!

[Driver]

@Zeus,

I was referring to your post in which you said that pwBPD have NO EMPATHY. Now, in your last post you come to conclusion that they LACK EMPATHY.

There is a difference between not having (=complete absence) and lacking (=partial absence / absence of emotion at a particular moment).

I agree that they lack empathy, but only when they are triggered and when they become dangerous to the environment and to themselves.

Also , saying that they have low emotion intelligence and equaling it to the emotion itself is unfair comparison. Yes, they have low emotion intelligence preventing them to regulate them the way nonBPD do it, but it doesn't mean that they have low emotion itself. We can't deny that they do have extremely strong emotions (including empathy) when they are at their best, and unfortunately hate when they are at their worst.

Also, I think that many people tend to forget that pwBPD may also have other disorders such as NPD. And it is true that pwNPD are the ones who don't have empathy at all.

All in all, pwNPD are the ones without empathy, whether they are in addition BPD or not actually.

The thing is, the studies clearly show that you can treat and even cure a pwBPD, but not a pwNPD. This means, that if pwBPD had no empathy they would be impossible to treat or cure.

For the rest, I agree with what you said.

[Lonely_Astro]

@Zeus,

I was referring to your post in which you said that pwBPD have NO EMPATHY. Now, in your last post you come to conclusion that they LACK EMPATHY.

There is a difference between not having (=complete absence) and lacking (=partial absence / absence of emotion at a particular moment).

I agree that they lack empathy, but only when they are triggered and when they become dangerous to the environment and to themselves.

Also , saying that they have low emotion intelligence and equaling it to the emotion itself is unfair comparison. Yes, they have low emotion intelligence preventing them to regulate them the way nonBPD do it, but it doesn't mean that they have low emotion itself. We can't deny that they do have extremely strong emotions (including empathy) when they are at their best, and unfortunately hate when they are at their worst.

Also, I think that many people tend to forget that pwBPD may also have other disorders such as NPD. And it is true that pwNPD are the ones who don't have empathy at all.

All in all, pwNPD are the ones without empathy, whether they are in addition BPD or not actually.

The thing is, the studies clearly show that you can treat and even cure a pwBPD, but not a pwNPD. This means, that if pwBPD had no empathy they would be impossible to treat or cure.

For the rest, I agree with what you said.

Even among health professionals, BPD being 'curable' is, to say the least, up for debate.  There are just as many studies that show it isn't curable as there are those that say it can be.  A basic search of Google has it labeled as "Can't be cured, but treatment may help" with sources from the Mayo Clinic and others.

DBT, the gold standard, is pretty much the only thing shown to possibly remit BPD symptoms.  And that is only if the patient stays with it (studies show 1/2 to 2/3 of patients drop out).  Studies also show the 'higher functioning' BPs are less likely to show positive results. 

I wouldn't take the stance that it is 'curable'.  Is it manageable?  Yes, if the pwBPD is willing to do the work in DBT and thats after years of it.

[khibomsis]

 Brief, Informative, Friendly, Formal (I think), one of the tools here on the right hand side which are very helpful. Although strictly speaking not an NC technique. But you and your ex have highly unique approach to NC FIT, your ex broke boundary (came to your house), lied (could not be texting you if she had deleted your number) and abandoned you yet again. Your  daughter loves you and has every reason to be concerned. You people just recycled. Psychoanalysis might say ex is re-enacting childhood dramas of abandonment, and that is the way she will communicate trauma until she decides to go into treatment. Behaviouralists may say that she abandons you because she can. My point is that it doesn't really matter. What matters is to understand what need of yours she hooks into? I speak of bitter experience and will gladly expand on the needs my ex hooked into if you would like me to hijack your thread  Still, if you are happy with the way things went than I am happy for you. If  you say you had that closure conversation you wanted then good for you! What conversation do you wish to have next time she drops by? 

[Driver]

@Zeus,

I was referring to your post in which you said that pwBPD have NO EMPATHY. Now, in your last post you come to conclusion that they LACK EMPATHY.

There is a difference between not having (=complete absence) and lacking (=partial absence / absence of emotion at a particular moment).

I agree that they lack empathy, but only when they are triggered and when they become dangerous to the environment and to themselves.

Also , saying that they have low emotion intelligence and equaling it to the emotion itself is unfair comparison. Yes, they have low emotion intelligence preventing them to regulate them the way nonBPD do it, but it doesn't mean that they have low emotion itself. We can't deny that they do have extremely strong emotions (including empathy) when they are at their best, and unfortunately hate when they are at their worst.

Also, I think that many people tend to forget that pwBPD may also have other disorders such as NPD. And it is true that pwNPD are the ones who don't have empathy at all.

All in all, pwNPD are the ones without empathy, whether they are in addition BPD or not actually.

The thing is, the studies clearly show that you can treat and even cure a pwBPD, but not a pwNPD. This means, that if pwBPD had no empathy they would be impossible to treat or cure.

For the rest, I agree with what you said.

Even among health professionals, BPD being 'curable' is, to say the least, up for debate.  There are just as many studies that show it isn't curable as there are those that say it can be.  A basic search of Google has it labeled as "Can't be cured, but treatment may help" with sources from the Mayo Clinic and others.

DBT, the gold standard, is pretty much the only thing shown to possibly remit BPD symptoms.  And that is only if the patient stays with it (studies show 1/2 to 2/3 of patients drop out).  Studies also show the 'higher functioning' BPs are less likely to show positive results.  

I wouldn't take the stance that it is 'curable'.  Is it manageable?  Yes, if the pwBPD is willing to do the work in DBT and thats after years of it.

Each person is different, including pwBPD. Some have clearly shown to be capable of stabilizing their emotional stress over the years, some not. The same goes with therapies. With some pwBPD it works, with some it doesn't.

The thing is, it is undeniable that they too when they fall in love with someone they are afraid. They are not only afraid for themselves, but they are afraid to hurt the ones they love too. In many cases pwBPD leave their loved ones for no apparent reason. But, in reality due to the sickness, they leave their partner either because they are no longer in love and experience severe splitting (we all do, except that with pwBPD it's much stronger) or they leave in order to avoid the one they love to suffer. It wasn't the case with my exBPDgf for example, but I won't forget what she told me before I even knew she had BPD. She told me: ":)o not let a person like me destroy you, I love you so much." If this sentence doesn't translate the feeling of empathy, then I don't know what else it does.

[La Carotte]

 You people just recycled.

What matters is to understand what need of yours she hooks into? I speak of bitter experience and will gladly expand on the needs my ex hooked into if you would like me to hijack your thread 

What conversation do you wish to have next time she drops by?  [/quote]
Thanks for the straight talking, khibomsis, it was what I need. 

It never occurred to me we recycled, but you are right of course. Did I mention it was a long hug? 

You've spoken a couple of times about her need to abandon me and reject and make me feel bad, possibly as a way of reenacting childhood trauma. I've not really thought of that before, and am going to give it thought, it may help me understand.

More to the point, what hook in me? I don't know. My immediated reaction is - that I don't want this relationship to be over! But I suspect I need to think beyond that, why don't I want it to be over when it's clearly so awful such a lot of the time? Please feel free to hijack the thread and tell about your hooks! I'd be really interested to hear, and it may help me in getting towards understanding mine...

As for the conversation next time she drops by... .Maybe she won't? But just in case, because I am getting to understand the predictable unpredictability you spoke about, I did lock the gate last night, for the first time ever, so she couldn't get in, and maybe the rejection of that will make her leave and I won't have any conversation with her... .

[khibomsis]

FIT, I hope by now you have kissed and made up with your daughter and learnt to beware those loong hugs  My story: I came to the conclusion that I was using my BPD ex to explore my own fears of abandonment. It makes sense like this: I was abandoned by my parents as a baby. Although we later reunited it left deep ego wounds not helped  by growing up with my uNBPD mother. In adulthood I was forced into  therapy due to repressed memories coming back which completely debilitated me and was diagnosed with suicidal depression and PTSD. Years later I had sorted out most of it but that babyhood stuff was simply not accessible to conscious healing. Too early for words or even the act of memory. Babies do not have a past and therefore nothing to remember, and the brain is still busy developing. So, getting attracted to a woman like my mother, being abandoned over and over again was I guess my inner child talking very loudly of this wound that was not getting healed. And somehow I  sorted it that way. I learnt that I could survive abandonment. I learnt that some people it was better to be abandoned by.I learnt that boundaries were more precious than even that intoxicating BPD attention phase. All that prepared me for the happiness I have today. So all in all I reckon I owe my ex an apology. One should not use the one you love. Whatever she was getting out of the relationship I was also enacting my own psycho dramas. Once I had sorted out my hook I didn't need her any more. Glad to say I occasionally troll  her social media and she seems to be doing fine. Whether my replacement is doing equally fine is another story but not my monkeys. If my story is of any help to you I shall be glad. I want to ask how is your ex today? Or would that be overly cynical on my part?

[La Carotte]

Khibomsis, thanks for sharing your story, I value that. Its so good to hear that you have been able to learn from what must have been terrible times, and are now in a much healthier and happier place. I'm still not sure what my hooks are, but I do feel as though, with all the reading and thinking im doing, that im getting closer to finding out, so that's ok.

Things are fine again with daughter, and as for ex, I'm sure she's fine too... .

[khibomsis]

F-I-T, it is equally good to hear from you! Wonderful news about your daughter, it is such a sensitive time of her life as she is just about to embark on her own adulthood. Make the most of the time you have together, these moments pass so quickly. My oldest niece is 26, and mostly busy having a life of her own. She tells me freely and not always politely what she thinks of my codependency. I miss her but am happy to let go and think that I have helped to bring up such a fine woman.

Recovery is a long process and by no means linear. Some days it feels like two steps forward one step back. Good if my experiences may help, although you know, I would not recommend trying this at home I was in counselling most of the time and even then thought I was going to die from the pain a couple of times. But here I am, so far, so good. Being spared for better things I guess.

And you? You were gradually climbing into driver's seats and locking gates and getting stronger day by day. However things go I was very impressed that the recycling attempts are coming from your ex and that you were staying resolute in not initiating contact. Hope you continue getting there at your own pace.  , khib