Do you think pwBPD ever get better?

[paperlung]

I met my exGF when she was almost 20. She's 24 now and is probably at rock bottom right now. She's had 6 or 7 boyfriends in just the past year and has no where to call home. I let her stay at my place for a while but it just didn't work out. I see others talking about their ex husbands or wives in their 30s and 40s and it got me thinking. Does this just go on forever? I know DBT is supposed to be like THE therapy for pwBPD, but do you believe it's actually effective?

[blackbirdsong]

I think it gets better as they get older BUT only in case they are in therapy.

BPD is personality disorder. Personality. You cannot take a pill and change your personality. It is integral part of you.

Therapy doesn't cure BPD, it only helps them to recognize the traits and to suppress them.

To be honest, I am very suspicious regarding the DBT as silver bullet therapy type.

DBT, CBT and similar things are good with "rapid results", in cases where person is very self-destructive (suicide attempts etc.).

I think, based on the things I researched, you can get very good results in just a year or two.

The true recovery requires more intensive therapy (like 10 years).

So to answer your question, yes - I think they can definitely get better, but only with hard work.

This doesn't mean just going to the therapy. For example, some people go to therapy and this type of treatment serves them only as alibi. No real self-examination.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey paperlung, I think that, without treatment, BPD can get significantly worse as time goes on.  Many people suffering from BPD are strongly opposed to therapy, in part because they are unwilling to take responsibility for their own issues, because the issues are too painful for them to face, in my view.  I don't rule out the Possibility of improvement, as blackbirdsong notes, but the reality is often a heightening of symptoms over time.

LuckyJim

[GreenEyedMonster]

I think it depends on the individual level of insight.  A person who notices, hey, every time I'm faced with a big commitment, I freak out, is more likely to get help.  If the person is basically just the perpetual victim of their own emotions, with no idea where those feelings come from, I think their prospects are much worse.

[tryingsome]

I think the general consensus in the psych community that it does improve over time.

Take it from a high level here, that generally as people get older they get more relaxed/less emotional.

I am not saying they become emotionless.

Now here is the rub, your particular relationship might not get better.

Imagine that a BPD is like a scale. It the beginning it is balanced.

Over time, a pwBPD adds more and more weights to one side until the relationship is severely unbalanced.

Now as they get older the amount of weights they add is less and less. Or maybe they add none at all.

But the scale is still unbalanced. It is very hard to balance a scale with a pwBPD after the fact.

So a pwBPD in their 50s is probably less volatile/less BPDish than they were in the 30s.

However, your relationship is likely to be worse because it is very hard to re-balance the relationship.

The sooner one can establish strong boundaries, the better.

[Frank88]

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the BPD females eventually hook a guy and keep him, whether through pregnancy or just control. BPD may never get better, but that doesn't mean all these women end up alone. Those of us on here are the ones who got out. Some apparently never do. Some of those on here were broken up with and some did the breaking up. Time will tell, but it seems like the replacements eventually end up going through hell. A narcissist may be able to make it last longer with a BPD. I'm waiting to see how long my ex's new one can last. The last one didn't make it very long. 

[Beacher]

Speaking for myself, my BPD husband has gotten worse over time. I've read with great hope that they do get better but this is not the case for us. He has been in therapy and on meds for most of his life for depression and anxiety, but will not even go near the idea of a diagnosis of BPD. In the last few years he has toned down the screaming and rages, only because he knew I would leave. But this was replaced by a slew of other traits- binge eating and weight loss, car accidents, reckless spending, paranoia, the list goes on and on. Habitual lying is probably the biggest one, and an affair to put the cherry on top. I pray for him and hope maybe one day he will explore the possibility of BPD, and get the help he needs. Good luck to you

[woofbarkmeowbeep]

Does it get better? Donno. My BPDex was in therapy (both group and individual) for a year prior to us meeting. She was sure she was on top of it all and convinced me to move across the country and stay with her for two months. I did. Within a week she had sex with her ex boyfriend. A week later she had kicked me out of her place. The following week she was doing cocaine with random people, not sleeping, and shoplifting. :-|

[paperlung]

Does it get better? Donno. My BPDex was in therapy (both group and individual) for a year prior to us meeting. She was sure she was on top of it all and convinced me to move across the country and stay with her for two months. I did. Within a week she had sex with her ex boyfriend. A week later she had kicked me out of her place. The following week she was doing cocaine with random people, not sleeping, and shoplifting. :-|

Damn. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

[Lonely_Astro]

Ah, the age old "do they get better" question.  Do I think they ever get better?  It depends on how one quantifies 'better'.

My ex (J) appeared to be better when we started up 3 years after NC (or ELC, since we work together).  She told me she had been through DBT and had managed her BPD.  That, of course, was a lie.  The only thing she seemed to have gotten better at was lying.  She had honed that skill to perfection, it seemed.

In a twist of irony, after our split and subsequent talks (where it was strongly hinted at reconciliation was possible) I found out she was "head over heels in love" with my replacement.  Oh, my replacement came into the picture while we were in limbo and she outright asked me to keep going with her.  She claims that she is still in DBT (started mid-September 2015) but I doubt that she is.  After all, the world is perfect for her right now... .I was the problem in her life.  Of course, I kept getting conflicting stances from her (one day I was the bad guy, the next I was a great guy that she did horrible things to, etc).  The part that hurt me the most was her saying that it was me that drove her to "be a better person" and how she'll "always and forever love" me.  But just not enough to have a r/s with me, right?   

While I haven't known J long term (4 years), it has been my experience that they don't get better.  Of course, each person is different, but the statistics just aren't in their favor.  Now, with that said, J is extremely high functioning (outside appearance) but also displays narc traits.  So, once again, stats show that 'recovery' (aka 'manageability' isn't in her favor either.

50% of those that seek DBT drop out.  The remaining 50% that stay in and do the work (over the course of years) manage to show some improvement.  But, once again, 'improvement' is how you quantify it.  20% of that 50% "backslide".  The remaining number can still be triggered under certain situations.  One thing that seems to be agreed upon is that while BPD is manageable, it isn't easy to manage and takes a lot of dedication, work, focus, and commitment to treatment from the pwBPD.  Most don't do that.  Of course, in the meantime, it's business as usual for them.  DBT is hotly debated among therapist and isn't a magic bullet.  If you dig into the studies, you'll see that improvement is mostly graded on them not wanting to self harm.  The other things they deal with are still present.

Like any individual, some get 'better' with age, others get 'worse'.  It has been my experience that J was pretty much the same girl I remembered at the end of our 1 year r/s.  Nothing had changed, even though she was always saying that she had.  The only thing that changed was she had refined her routine to make people believe she was 'fine' when in fact she was a hot mess of a human being.

So, all that text was for me to say, no.  I don't believe they get better. 

[Fr4nz]

So, about the never-ending question "do BPDs get better over time?"... .

Some time ago I wrote to a past ex of my uBPD/HPD ex gf (story here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=290255.0), in order to have an empirical, final confirmation that "I wasn't the problem".

As you can read from the post, that ex noticed the same, dysfunctional behavioural patterns I experienced throughout the relationship. The same! :O

The relationship with that ex happened between 2005-2009 (so, she was 23-27 years old), while mine was between 2013 and 2015 (so, she was 31-33 years old).

So, my case represents a further, empirical evidence that BPDs (and HPDs) usually do not get better without proper therapy and introspection. Indeed, without a realization they have a problem - and thus take appropriate actions, they go on repeating endlessly their dysfunctional behavioural/thoughts patterns across the relationships, thus creating an endless sequence of dramas, damages and traumas.

PS: I'd also add that if you want a confirmation that they don't get better over time... .you can try contacting one of your ex's ex whom you are sure he/she is fairly in the distant past (i.e., you're sure they're completely out of your BPD's life, so contacting them won't have any bad side-effects).

[Lonely_Astro]

So, about the never-ending question "do BPDs get better over time?"... .

Some time ago I wrote to a past ex of my uBPD/HPD ex gf (story here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=290255.0), in order to have an empirical, final confirmation that "I wasn't the problem".

As you can read from the post, that ex noticed the same, dysfunctional behavioural patterns I experienced throughout the relationship. The same! :O

The relationship with that ex happened between 2005-2009 (so, she was 23-27 years old), while mine was between 2013 and 2015 (so, she was 31-33 years old).

So, my case represents a further, empirical evidence that BPDs (and HPDs) usually do not get better without proper therapy and introspection. Indeed, without a realization they have a problem - and thus take appropriate actions, they go on repeating endlessly their dysfunctional behavioural/thoughts patterns across the relationships, thus creating an endless sequence of dramas, damages and traumas.

PS: I'd also add that if you want a confirmation that they don't get better over time... .you can try contacting one of your ex's ex whom you are sure he/she is fairly in the distant past (i.e., you're sure they're completely out of your BPD's life, so contacting them won't have any bad side-effects).

Even if they know they're BPD and hurt people, that doesn't for sure stop them.  J knows she's BPD.  She knows she hurts people.  She is unbelievably self aware.  Her stance, unapologetically is "I know I'm sick. I know I'm not right.  I can't help myself and you should be ok with that."

Keep in mind that J is diagnosed, medicated, and (allegedly) going to DBT.  I have seen zero change in her behavior, other than to flaunt her new r/s and how perfect my replacement is. I'm sure he is... .for now.  But that's BPD, isn't it?  Their old partner was the problem, their new one is the answer.  He will be right up until the moment he's not.

My experience is that they do not change.  They may claim they have and there's moments they are lucid, but with long term observation, I just don't see it happening.  I'm speaking on terms of the vast majority, not the few that dedicate their lives to suppressing BPD. Those are the definite minority, not majority.

[Michelle27]

I took myself to therapy during the last year I was with my ex, in part to find ways to be able to help him, and myself and in part to make a decision on whether I could continue on in the relationship.  My therapist has worked with personality disordered individuals and in the plainest language she could, she told me that if I was going to stay, it couldn't be because he "might" get better, it had to be with the full on knowledge and acceptance that he was the way he was and with no expectation of change.  Radical acceptance.  I fought this for a long time because his words were that he wanted to get better and would do whatever it took.  It seriously  took me years to finally understand that staying would mean accepting him the way he was and that's when I decided that for my own emotional well being, I could no longer stay.  With everything I learned, here, in books and from my therapist, I believe progress can be made, but it takes huge effort and a long period of time to get there.

[anothercasualty]

I took myself to therapy during the last year I was with my ex, in part to find ways to be able to help him, and myself and in part to make a decision on whether I could continue on in the relationship.  My therapist has worked with personality disordered individuals and in the plainest language she could, she told me that if I was going to stay, it couldn't be because he "might" get better, it had to be with the full on knowledge and acceptance that he was the way he was and with no expectation of change.  Radical acceptance.  I fought this for a long time because his words were that he wanted to get better and would do whatever it took.  It seriously  took me years to finally understand that staying would mean accepting him the way he was and that's when I decided that for my own emotional well being, I could no longer stay.  With everything I learned, here, in books and from my therapist, I believe progress can be made, but it takes huge effort and a long period of time to get there.

Wow! I had never really grasped the idea of "radical acceptance" until I read this. You and your therapist stated it very plainly. I think we always want to go back to the honeymoon period of the relationship and assume that when the partner is healed, that is what would happen. The reality is today and today is disordered. Thanks for the straight talk.

[Lucky Jim]

Right, Michelle27, the question turns in part on whether the pwBPD is willing to put in the "huge effort" over a "long period of time," as you put it.  In my experience, the answer is No, because a pwBPD can't admit that he/she is part of the problem.  They drop out of therapy.  They blame the spouse or SO.  They shift responsibility to others.  Their actions belie their talk.

LuckyJim

[Dutched]

One of THE questions.

Based on my very long experience in that r/s it certainly worsens with age.

Based of the many stories from other members with similar lengths of their r/s, it gets worse.

Based on stories of members who has an older parent already, it gets worse.

So a pwBPD in their 50s is probably less volatile/less BPDish than they were in the 30s.

So, no

PwBPD have a half core and that will stay that way, they have attachment issues, it stays, they have abandonment issues, it stays, the have engulfment issues, it stays

The core stays the same.   

# It is a disorder, it can’t be cured, it can be managed after therapy.

# Hormonal changes during mid-life in a woman can cause a lot of upheaval, even in normal relationships. Imagine the situation with a HFBPDw in pre- or post memopause. It is a catalyst for more and intense outbursts and abrupt destroying a family, just for a minor issues which couldn’t be handled.

# I would recommend ‘how a Borderline relationship evolves’ on this Board. The next r/s will evolve the same.

I think the general consensus in the psych community that it does improve over time.

Take it from a high level here, that generally as people get older they get more relaxed/less emotional.

I am not saying they become emotionless.

# All clinical data available concluding that which age the BPD gets ‘better’, become dormant, etc., is solely based on the population of patients once treated for the disorder.

Most, maybe even all, patients as mentioned weren’t able to function well in society.

However one must be diagnosed first. Not diagnosed, means no data available. How many of the (ex)partners on this board are diagnosed?

# Meanwhile there is scientific evidence that the brain of pwBPD is ‘different’. Among the Amygdala, part of the Limbic system. Therefore the explanation that emotions are differently processed.

The memory function is therefore involved too, as the Amygdala processes all impressions (applies to everyone) before storage in our memory.

Specific for a non disordered person, we are able to lets say, equalize emotions, before it gets in our memory. A pwBPD more or less processes the raw emotions, therefore ‘feelings become fact’s'.

# From my experience with a high functioning.

With age and towards others the self-confidence rises as the social mask/face is appreciated due to the effort put into social activities.

Able to hold a job, being successful, promoted and appreciated.

The circle of ‘friends’ the known pull and push behaviour until disposed by minimizing, later ending, contact.

In fact exw only had a best gf as a teenager.

Within the circle of the closest ones (so the SO) as referring below.

# It is known, referring to Randi Kreger (professional member of this board), the more high functioning pwBPD are in denial, blaming the partner for all problems, showing their behaviour only toward those closest to them, etc.

So based on many, many years, I predicted how exw emotionally would end up, never reaching the baseline anymore, empty and dead eyes, burden towards kids and craving for any moments of joy.

It is as predicted.

Predicted the downgrade of a man exw would be hooked by.

It became even more than a downgrade (a mr Onslow – UK tv-series – as her ‘intimae’ secretly call him).

Predicted an emotionally shallow r/s, based on joy, just anything to avoid emotional pain. Therefore closeness is out of the question. Seems it is as predicted.

However, your relationship is likely to be worse because it is very hard to re-balance the relationship.

The sooner one can establish strong boundaries, the better.

First of all, the demolition is within themselves, not us, but is projected at us.

Any event, by which a pwBPD feels like the hurt child, will be remembered. Even moments that we even can’t imagine that it would be of any importance. 

So in time the balance can only be restored for periods that get shorter and shorter, as we more and more are seen as the persecutor.

Boundaries. As you correctly state establish strong boundaries. Question is how? Based on that long r/s I had strong boundaries, but it is the way pwBPD feel/see your boundary.

Establishing a boundary causes (strong) upheaval in the mind of pwBPD.

Common is the mistake that one draws the line for the pwBPD.

It is better (and much more relaxing living) to draw our line for the pwBPD.

The parent – child upbringing…

[Itstopsnow]

I agree with beacher. My ex was getting worse and worse. He was on the priesthood for 4 years and seminary 6. I read that when people with BPD have very structured jobs their symptoms can appear to lie dormant for periods of time. I think in his case it was partly true. He was still acting out in the priesthood. Hooking up with people on the down low. But because he had his housing, food and car paid for him by the church . He didn't have rock bottoms to hit.

As he got out and had to support himself... It got worse! He got into crazy credit card debt, drove over his lease car Milage by driving across the country . It was so bad, his mom had to give him her old car to drive. He was cheating on me by having emotional and physical affairs . He developed a gambling addiction. And he had bouts of gaining 40 pounds from binge eating and then lost it all by having anorexic fasts . Went through 4 jobs in 18 months. And manages to save no money but only get further into lies, debt and his outbursts, rages and temper tantrums were out of control at points. Reckless driving. I don't know what he's up to now but I'm sure more of the same. I think they only get better if they admit to themselves they are sick and get help and stay committed to it.

The thing about aging and getting better. I think that's more about not being physically able to keep up with their shenanigans like in their later years like 60's 70's 80's ... But they will likely still have their temperment, odd thinking and paranoid thoughts, anger may slow a little but I think it depends on the situation and the person. 

[balletomane]

Two points to consider here.

First of all, people with BPD are just that - people. (This is one of the reasons why I cringe when I see posters referring to them as 'PDs', as though they're just personality disorders on legs.) All people can change and grow in their lives, providing they're nurtured and supported. People with BPD are no different. The nature of the support they need might be different, but that's all.

Second, people with BPD are all individuals. Some may recover completely, meaning they never have any interpersonal difficulties at all (or at least, no more difficulties than the average person). Some will recover to the point where they will still experience problems, but they have insight into the problems, can manage them, and are able to lead a fulfilling life with good friendships and relationships. Others will never get to that point. I think it's impossible and unhelpful to speculate about which category our exes or someone else's ex might fall into. Equally, while DBT has a good evidence base, it's not a magic bullet and isn't meant to be approached as such - just as not all of us here will benefit from the same type of therapy, neither will all people with BPD. Recovery is a very personal journey.

I say this as someone working in a hospital for people who have extremely severe mental health problems. Sometimes I see people write things about BPD or its treatment that are off-base. As this site warns, not everything you read on the Internet about BPD or its treatment is accurate, and asking broad questions that call for generalisations aren't helpful. I think it's more useful to ask why the question is important to us. For example, is it born of a hope that they will be sorry for how they acted and come back to the relationship 'better'?

[SlyQQ]

No! That does not mean they can't improve though. Like most things with BPD its slightly complicated but easy to grasp once you understand.

BPD is a little like a pendulum without dampers once it starts swinging every little impetus makes it wilder

An due to a BPD's nature it is very easy for these to become reenforcing  where there behaviours feedback into more an more out of control behaviours. If you can stabalize someone with BPD a lot of there behaviours can go into "remission" but once subject to sufficent stressors the pendulum starts swinging again. Age and help can help in placing "some" dampers on this pendulum but once a certain stage is reached they normally go out the window.

DBT Schema and Cognitive therapy help mainly with the denial aspects of BPD or the fact = feeling misnomer. Hence radical acceptence i.e. I must accept i am wrong thinking or my feelings are somehow misplaced. Ironically this may be helped by a BPDs trust issues, you have to convince them not to trust themselves.

There is little that seems to help there core Abandoment an Fear issues except via the backdoor as mentioned above of not trusting themselves.

Once relatively stable if they avoid stressors like romantic ralationships they can stay stable for extended periods of time. This is my opinion only but if you can see how it relates to you it will probably make sense.

P.S. Apologies I can't spell.

[woofbarkmeowbeep]

Two points to consider here.

First of all, people with BPD are just that - people.

Second, people with BPD are all individuals.

I used to think this. I used to think I was dating a person *with* BPD... but now I've come to believe that I was dating a BPD. I find it difficult to see a person in any of this.

[balletomane]

Two points to consider here.

First of all, people with BPD are just that - people.

Second, people with BPD are all individuals.

I used to think this. I used to think I was dating a person *with* BPD... but now I've come to believe that I was dating a BPD. I find it difficult to see a person in any of this.

I understand feeling that way, but it's important to remember that feelings are not facts.

After I cut off contact with my ex, I was engulfed by a particularly horrible kind of confusion and pain - the sensation that I'd never really known who he was. Had he been like this all along? Had I been deceiving myself about his qualities and good points? Which aspects of his behaviour were down to his mental health and which weren't? Did he abuse me deliberately? I felt as though I'd been standing on quicksand without realising it, and now it was swallowing me.

Pretty recently I have been able to accept that these questions are not my business and the answer to them is not particularly important. I'm not all-knowing. I can't read his thoughts. I don't know what's going on in his mind. At one time, telling myself this just caused myself further hurt - I felt like I needed to know in order to feel better. It's normal to crave some certainty after coming out of a turbulent and in some cases abusive relationship, which may explain the temptation to think about people with BPD and even ourselves in very black-and-white terms, e.g. "People who date BPDs have issues with their family of origin", "BPDs do Y", "Nons do X." It's easier and more comforting to think this way than it is to accept that there are things we can't know and outcomes beyond our control. However, now I'm further on from that initial crushing suffocating mass of pain, I've found it quite freeing to accept this. I have realised that by trying to put my ex into a box, to explain everything he did and tidily label everything that happened, I was boxing myself up too. And I have a new life to focus on now, so I don't want to stay boxed into the past. Recognising that there are things I can't know and may never know has enabled me to let go and concentrate on things I actually can do something about - building my own life. His life is his business, and I'm not the expert on it.

[woofbarkmeowbeep]

^^^

I'm not really sure you have argued your position here.

For me, I don't think it makes sense to describe it as anything other than dating a borderline personality disorder. To extend some semblance of personhood or autonomy to these people when it comes to relationships is problematic. Especially when they tend to operate in categorically distinct ways from typical social practices of being a human in relation with another.

To assume that they can 'recover' is to suggest that they were ok in the first place. Problem is, they weren't. They don't have a foundation for functioning successfully in relationships because they never had one to begin with. Can it be learned? Perhaps. But the onus ought to be on them to prove themselves as anything other than a BPD when it comes to close relations.

[balletomane]

No one is born with BPD and I think talking about "these people" as though they're somehow separate from the rest of humanity is unhelpful to both us and to them. Similar language has been used about people with many other illnesses and disabilities, often with devastating consequences, and I think it makes logical sense to concentrate on what we can take responsibility for - our own selves - rather than theorising and speculating about people whose lives and choices we can't control. Working with people with very severe psychiatric problems who have often been completely written off (the hospital ward where I'm based is literally the last chance saloon) I've seen people recover when it was assumed that there was no chance, and this is partly because our staff never say never when it comes to recovery. Taking an exploratory non-judgmental approach leads to better outcomes than assuming you know everything there is to know about a person. This doesn't mean I think we should stay with our partners - I am glad mine is out of my life because he was abusing me, and I have a right to be safe. I can say that with 100% certainty. What I cannot say with certainty is whether he will get better or not. I hope he does. I wish him well. I also wish myself well and that means not having any contact with him.

From a professional standpoint, a lot of inaccurate and sometimes highly stigmatising ideas about BPD and other mental illness get shared on this forum. Having suffered abuse in a relationship with someone who has BPD, I understand the anger and the pain that drives people to think like this, but it still isn't OK. Not having a psychiatric condition ourselves doesn't automatically make us correct on everything. "Prove that you're more than just your diagnosis" is a very demeaning approach to take towards anyone with any kind of health condition.

[Turkish]

Marsha Linehan?

[thisworld]

OK. Confession:

When I ask this question in relation to a person I love in a special, intimate way, it's actually not simply about the prognosis of a disorder. Underneath it, there is the nagging question "Shall WE be able to solve THE RELATIONSHIP problems one day and have a kind of life that I imagine." So, basically, I'm dumping my expectations from life on someone's disorder and potential prognosis. I also think this is not helpful when something psychology-related is in the equation.

For instance, I'm a member of Al-Anon, so I know a lot of people living with an alcoholic or addicted spouse. Many people in Al-Anon think that if the problem of alcohol or addiction is solved, we would live with our partners the life we have been dreaming of. It happens sometimes. People sober up, feel grateful to their spouses because they stood by, try to make up for the lost time and have good relationships with them. But other things happen as well: People sober up, start a journey of self-discovery and the couple looks at each other and go "hey, who the hell are you?" They feel like strangers to each other. One of them may want to experience a new life. This is very normal as people have just discovered a new self, they may want to explore the world and this may mean that their current relationship is not as attractive anymore. What are you going to do? People who build their lives on expectations about someone else's recovery run the risk of ending up bitter. Very bitter.

I've often thought about it in relationship to my BPD ex. This is because I, as a Non, liked him with my stable sense of self and my values. So, I imagine that if we get rid of problems (things I see as problems like his fondness of other ladies which I see as a coping skill of BPD:)) we can still have a life TOGETHER. Recovery does not guarantee this "TOGETHER". I believe this to be the Non's fantasy (which may or may not come true and it is of course unique for every relationship.) My ex with BPD did not like me because I was the most special woman on earth - though he bombed me with an "angel" image which is not completely true. Basically, he liked me because I came on his way and offered a chance to soothe his fear of abandonment at some point. Mirroring me, he also felt "whole" because that gave him a sense of identity. Very important as pwBPD lack a stable sense of self. He can do this with many different women who are complete opposites of me in so many senses - like values etc.

What would happen if my ex gained a stronger sense of self? Maybe this self would have nothing to do with me because our attraction also occurred within the space of the disorder. It wasn't like we fell in love healthily and then he became ill. So, maybe he would recover, maybe he would discover that he actually uses relationships as a survival tool and maybe he even doesn't want to be in a monogamous relationship with anyone! Maybe he will choose to be a Casanova not because he is ill but because that suits him as a lifestyle. Life allows that. Maybe he will see that he isn't attracted to me as a person, but he liked what he thought was "security". There is no way I can know who he will be when he recovers (as that's something about the disorder, he lacks a sense of self.)

Of course I would like him to recover because I know he is tormented through and through. But I avoid relating myself to this recovery. Maybe, if he recovers, I'll just be someone from a disordered past. 

How do you relate to her recovery?   

[JQ]

Group,

The question is, "o you think that pwPBD ever get better?" There are numerous studies, universities, professors, Ph.d's, MDs, therapist that have studied this question for decades. BPD is a VERY serious Cluster B mental illness with numerous studies to indicate that is in deed a genetic, physical defects within the brain coupled with environmental conditions that are responsible for BPD. BPD can also be co-diagnosed with other mental / behavioral illnesses such as NPD for example.  There are MD, Ph.d's that are trying to categorize BPD in the Cluster A mental illness category that includes paranoid personality disorder, schizoid personality disorder. The following is in part a study from Harvard Medical School which indicates an underlying abnormality of the brain structure or function resulting in a significant disability.

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) is a severe mental illness seen in approximately 20% of inpatient and outpatient clinical samples and between 1.2% and 5.9% of the general population and can co-occur with other disorders.

BPD is believed to emerge from an interaction between genes and environment. The major twin study showed that genes accounted for 69% of the variance in diagnostic concordance. This concordance rate is similar to that found in bipolar disorder and stronger than rates for depression or anxiety. Functional MRI studies of BPD patients show abnormalities in the amygdala (an almond-sized and shaped brain structure linked with a person's mental and emotional state) and the prefrontal cortex (a part of the brain associated with planning, reasoning, solving problems and regulating thoughts, feelings and behaviors). A major BPD twin study showed that genes accounted for 69% of the variance in BPD.

A core feature of BPD is self-destructive behavior, including bingeing and purging, substance abuse, risky sexual behavior, reckless driving and spending, and self-injury. In the short term, these behaviors attempt to regulate out-of-control emotions, but the interpersonal consequences further impair troubled relationships.

Recent data link BPD to both structural and physiological brain abnormalities. Volumetric studies using MRI consistently show decreased volumes in the hippocampus and amygdala of persons with BPD. Functional MRI studies using standardized tests have demonstrated differences in brain areas and functioning between people with BPD and controls. Using evoked emotional response, MRI differentiated BPD from controls with differences appearing in the amygdala, anterior cingulate and prefrontal cortex. This research suggests that both the affective instability and the interpersonal hypersensitivity seen in BPD have their roots in the sensitivity of the brain's amygdala to negative emotions.  In the face of this increased amygdalae activation, persons with BPD demonstrate impaired self-regulatory function in the prefrontal cortex.

The findings from psychopharmacologic and other biologic treatment data, coupled with associated brain functioning findings, indicate that BPD is a biologically based disorder.  Based on this analysis, including BPD in the Massachusetts Parity Law as a "biologically-based disorder" is well founded.


Yes there are several types of treatments that have several levels of "success" ... .success measured as limited MANAGEMENT of behavior from a chronic mental illness.  This study among others would indicate there is no full recovery or "cure" to indicate that they get better.  Example, my exBPDgf (age north of 50) has seen Ph.d's, clinical physiologist & therapist off & on for more then 25 years. She continues to have severe behavioral conditions that include impulse control issues, risky sexual behavior, alcohol abuse, reckless spending, self-injury, personal relationship trouble with multiple boyfriends, 2 ex-husbands and other BPD behavior that we've all read about.  She's been on several different meds in addition to Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) focuses on the concept of mindfulness, or paying attention to the present emotion. Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) can help people with BPD recognize and change both their beliefs and the ways they act that reflect inaccurate or negative opinions of themselves and others. Mentalization-based therapy (MBT) is a talk therapy that helps people identify and understand what others might be thinking and feeling.  Transference-focused therapy (TFP) is designed to help patients understand their emotions and interpersonal problems through the relationship between the patient and therapist in addition to mood stabilizers, anti-represents, anti-anxiety meds.

So do they get better? BPD is NOT like cancer that with surgery, chemo, radiation they "MIGHT" get better & after 5 years of no additional indications of cancer they are deemed "cured".  Evidence indicates BPD is at the gene level of the human body and physical abnormalities of the brain.  In the NON or codependent world we are in part a perfectionist ... .we want to "fix" everything to make everything better.  It was un-educated arrogant behavior on MY part to believe that I could "FIX" my exBPDgf with understanding, love, caring and wanting to help her ... .WHEN 25 plus years of professional psychiatric assistance & meds couldn't and still can't manage the mental illness.

So the question isn't do they get better ... .the question should be, "As codependents do we get better?" and the answer is yes with a little help from a good therapist helping us learn why we became codependent in the first place.  We can then live & share a life with someone who isn't mentally ill.

JQ

[SlyQQ]

Just curious? Why do you categorize the partners of BPDs as co dependent ?

[Stolen]

Just wanted to add my personal experience to this.

The (excellent) post by Dutched on page 2 summed up the crisis point in my relationship perfectly:

"# Hormonal changes during mid-life in a woman can cause a lot of upheaval, even in normal relationships. Imagine the situation with a HFBPDw in pre- or post memopause. It is a catalyst for more and intense outbursts and abrupt destroying a family, just for a minor issues which couldn’t be handled."

Even though I had experienced two decades of dysregulation and dysphoric rage to this point, I had found a way to manage (?) it.  xW meltdown as she ran into peri-menopause had me convinced she was victim of a hormonal crisis (if not a brain tumor... .).   I only "discovered" BPD when chasing the displayed symptoms - particularly the splitting of long term friends and family.  And then it clicked... .

And - as I look back at last generation (xMIL) and see her exhibiting rage, triangulation, splitting well into her 70's, and having seen W's grandmother pass in her 90's still being the raging puppet master, I know in my experience, that BPD does not get better with age.  If anything, they became more devious and skilled at practicing their craft... .

[Georgina T]

I think with therapy they do get better

Also a serious life crisis might make them reconsider their own personality, especially if they are in therapy at the same time.

Without therapy I'd find it really hard, unless they do a lot of reading, a lot of self help (forums etc), they are at the low end of the BPD continuum and so on. So many factors but to get entirely better magically on their own, that would probably be a difficult thing

[JQ]

Hey Group,

@Sly ... .In my life I have come to learn that nothing has & nothing can be said in a blanket statement so if I inferred that in my statement of "partners of BPD's as codependents" I certainly apologize. However, it appears that an overwhelming majority of those here  on this site are or do indicate to some degree exhibit behavior of codependency.

@Stolen, I can agree with your statement, " see her exhibiting rage, triangulation, splitting well into her 70's, and having seen W's grandmother pass in her 90's still being the raging puppet master, I know in my experience, that BPD does not get better with age"   My step mother in her early 70's continues to rage at those closest to her. She continues to triangulate siblings against one another to bide for her "love & attention" in what has been a lifetime of cage matches. She still continues to idealize one while at the same time demonize the others in an attempt to manipulate us to give her what she wants.

She continues to project, deregulate, split & manipulate those closest to her who only want to help. She is ... .or attempts to be, "using Stolen's words", the "raging puppet master".  Just this week she tried to manipulate, shame me, bait me, verbal, emotional & mentally abuse me in a conversation we had.  I've seen the physical & emotional toll it's taking on her partner of 25 years after I watched the physical & emotional toll it took on my father.  He exited this life with a broken mind & body before the age of 50 but before he did, he abused alcohol & prescription meds to dull his emotions from the day after day onslaught of BPD behavior.

I must admit after our conversation I had to have a glass of liquid nerve tonic as she knew exactly how & what buttons to push. But thanks to this site, some guidance from a therapist or two, more then one book I used the techniques to "communicate" with her. But like a lot of people believe it's a one sided conversation in order to prevent her from complete meltdown because we all know nothing good would come from that.  "We" talk a lot about going NC with a romantic BPD r/s ... .I'm currently & have been for sometime NC with my step sister who is BPD and I'm about one conversation from going NC with my step mother ... .I know my mental well being would be better off ... .

J