I think I may break down and reply-please help

[Penelope35]

I know... .I broke no contact so many times and always ended up in a much worse place... .This is the first time I stick to it for so long because this time at least my head knows that I can't have a relationship with him. My heart is still behind

[C.Stein]

I don't know... .I may still be in denial but right now I honestly don't feel like he was intentionally hurting me.

I believe there is a good possibility he doesn't know he is hurting you.  He has a need to be validated and doesn't see anything beyond that ... .specifically the impact on you.  My ex did this to me many times and I don't believe she was consciously aware of hurting me.  That said there were some times when she knew what she was doing (going to do) would hurt me but did it anyway. 

[Caley]

I don't know... .I may still be in denial but right now I honestly don't feel like he was intentionally hurting me.

I believe there is a good possibility he doesn't know he is hurting you.  He has a need to be validated and doesn't see anything beyond that ... .specifically the impact on you.  My ex did this to me many times and I don't believe she was consciously aware of hurting me.  That said there were some times when she knew what she was doing (going to do) would hurt me but did it anyway. 

C.Stein ... I have read a great deal of your posts and your advice to people is measured, balanced and reasonable. What I have trouble with this is ... you say there is a 'possibility that he doesn't know' he is hurting her and cite that in your own experience with your 'difficult' person is that you don't believe she was consciously aware of hurting you (feelings, moral standards, principles, tacit and implied agreements etc.,), then admit to the truth by realising that there were times when she did know and behaved in the way that she did ( which was planned) regardless of knowing it would hurt you.

What if she and he did and do know? Prior to gratifying their self serving desires that if you found out ... you would be hurt ... what if they did know? I feel that this is where people get stuck, make excuses to alleviate their trauma. Is it that you truly don't believe ... or is it more that you don't 'want' to believe that the person that ensnared you (for your upstanding qualities) could behave so uncaringly towards you?

Perhaps, because often people have been conditioned to internalise and blame themselves for 'not being good enough' when things go wrong ... that this is the reason this person has done what they have done. NOT TRUE ... they did it because they knew that there would be a more than strong possibility they'd be forgiven ... and you would try even harder to 'make things better' or 'fix' whatever it is they say is wrong which drove them to do what they did. Is it so ugly to accept that this is why they chose you ... that you cannot ... will not accept?

It's a tough dilemma ... if you ignore, they'll take it that what they do is OK with you ... and keep doing it. If you explode they'll accuse you of being controlling (an accusation which will really knock you into the orbit of cognitive dissonance and one you will insist you prove is not true) ... and they'll keep doing what they want ... when they want. If you believe the way forward would be to explain your feelings and how their actions affect your feelings/emotions ... guess what? They don't care about how you feel ... they only care about how they feel. You're also telling them that they have control of you, your feelings and emotions, your decision making processes and your altruistic, empathic nature can be used and manipulated but not interfere with their personal agenda. Unless you know what their core fear is ... .YOU cannot solve this puzzle. And, neither should you want to, because which ever way you go ... you'll be defeated.

The only way out ... the only effective way to navigate your way through this ... is to live a healthy life. To care for yourself and others, that have demonstrated again and again their worthiness of your time, affection and love.

Penelope ... your man, in the beginning, loved you (but it was his interpretation of what he thought love to be); he loved you with an intensity beyond healthy love. He believed you were the answer ... the one... the answer to his dilemma and fantasy. Whilst, in the beginning, you reflected back to him his brilliance, omnipotence and God like presence in your life ... he was happy. But, there came a point where you could not sustain giving all of yourself to him without losing your identity, goals, wants, wishes and expectations of self realisation. This was when he started to devalue ... find other 'supplies' that reflected his deluded ideas he had of himself (a fraudulent one) ... because he became aware that you wouldn't cow tow to his every whim ... that you were separate from him, an individual with designs of your own. So he went elsewhere. And when you stood up for your rights and called him out on his schoolyard behaviour ... and demanded explanation and accountability ... you got "Hey honey, you don't need to feel like that ... they're just friends! I'm allowed to have friends, aren't I?'

And then truth has a way of revealing itself ... they weren't friends were they? Nada ... more conquests? He was sleeping with them and they were reflecting back to him his magnificence ... (Urghh ... it makes me sick). And, you? You're now believing 'I'm obviously not good enough because he wouldn't do this if I was?'

Penelope ... you are stronger than him. You are morally centred, kind and giving ... don't settle for anything else in someone else in a romantic intimate attachment.

People like this ... who behave in this way ... are vulnerable and it is possible to 'tame' them. But, you have to possess an element of Machiavellism to exact a balance. It is much easier ... and healthier to just let go of them. And, if that isn't possible at such an early stage of separation ... just loosen your grip. You 'NEED' time apart from him to work this out. This is about you ... NOT HIM ... So try your best to give you the time and space to work out why you fell for a con man.

To keep him ... you must be a willing participant who can ceaselessly extol and reflect the idea that he is perfect ... In every way. The price you will need to consider to pay will be your Self. DO NOT DO THAT ... and do not have children with this man. And, do not give energy to any thoughts that arise that your life could not be better without him.

30 odd days of NC is but a scratch ... commit to yourself today ... and implement NC until you draw your last breath. He will always be in your heart and you will never be free, entirely, of him ... because he has left a scar. Not just with you but with his wife and every other target he's set his sights on.

Someone will come for you ... and he'll be good for you ... trust that this will happen.

Much love. x

[troisette]

Caley: your post is perceptive. Thank you

[C.Stein]

I don't know... .I may still be in denial but right now I honestly don't feel like he was intentionally hurting me.

I believe there is a good possibility he doesn't know he is hurting you.  He has a need to be validated and doesn't see anything beyond that ... .specifically the impact on you.  My ex did this to me many times and I don't believe she was consciously aware of hurting me.  That said there were some times when she knew what she was doing (going to do) would hurt me but did it anyway.  

C.Stein ... I have read a great deal of your posts and your advice to people is measured, balanced and reasonable. What I have trouble with this is ... you say there is a 'possibility that he doesn't know' he is hurting her and cite that in your own experience with your 'difficult' person is that you don't believe she was consciously aware of hurting you (feelings, moral standards, principles, tacit and implied agreements etc.,), then admit to the truth by realising that there were times when she did know and behaved in the way that she did ( which was planned) regardless of knowing it would hurt you.

Caley, it wasn't an admission of truth as much as it was to point out there were times when she knew exactly what she was doing/saying was going to hurt me and times when she didn't.  I don't see a discrepancy here and there is no doubt in my mind this occurred.  The confusion she exhibited when I would point out some of the hurtful behavior was unmistakable.  If she was aware of what she was doing then it wasn't a conscious awareness but rather subconscious due to a learned automated (re)action -> result.  

This is really not much different than a child lashing out at a parent in an emotionally volatile time.  The child has no real knowledge/understanding what they are doing is hurting the other person, they are just acting on their emotions of the moment.  This is (can be) the insidious nature of emotional pain, it is not readily apparent to the person inflicting the pain especially when that person has the emotional intelligence of a child.

Now there were also times when she did know exactly what she was doing and actually warned me (at times) that something she was going to do/say would upset me.  

The discrepancy between the two is time.  When she was cognitively aware that her actions/behavior might hurt me there was a thought process over a period of time that preceded the action/behavior.  When she wasn't aware she was acting on her emotions of the moment, impulsive and reactive like a child.

What if she and he did and do know? Prior to gratifying their self serving desires that if you found out ... you would be hurt ... what if they did know? I feel that this is where people get stuck, make excuses to alleviate their trauma. Is it that you truly don't believe ... or is it more that you don't 'want' to believe that the person that ensnared you (for your upstanding qualities) could behave so uncaringly towards you?

It just isn't that black and white.  We all function in a grey area, pwBPD are included in that grey.   I know it is easier to just believe borderlines are all same and their actions/behavior are planned and intentionally malicious in nature but this is just not true.  The easiest way to visualize this is imagining your ex is a child trapped in an adult body.

BPD is a spectrum disorder and the resulting behavior on that spectrum is vast.  Certainly in some cases the behavior/actions are premeditated and in others it is not, even within the same person.  Recognizing this isn't making excuses for a borderlines behavior nor is it accepting responsibility for them but rather recognizing the complexity of the disorder and that we are all different.  

[WoundedBibi]

... your man, in the beginning, loved you (but it was his interpretation of what he thought love to be); he loved you with an intensity beyond healthy love. He believed you were the answer ... the one... the answer to his dilemma and fantasy. Whilst, in the beginning, you reflected back to him his brilliance, omnipotence and God like presence in your life ... he was happy. But, there came a point where you could not sustain giving all of yourself to him without losing your identity, goals, wants, wishes and expectations of self realisation. This was when he started to devalue ... find other 'supplies' that reflected his deluded ideas he had of himself (a fraudulent one) ... because he became aware that you wouldn't cow tow to his every whim ... that you were separate from him, an individual with designs of your own. So he went elsewhere. And when you stood up for your rights and called him out on his schoolyard behaviour ... and demanded explanation and accountability ... you got "Hey honey, you don't need to feel like that ... they're just friends! I'm allowed to have friends, aren't I?'

And then truth has a way of revealing itself ... they weren't friends were they? Nada ... more conquests? He was sleeping with them and they were reflecting back to him his magnificence ... (Urghh ... it makes me sick). And, you? You're now believing 'I'm obviously not good enough because he wouldn't do this if I was?'

... you are stronger than him. You are morally centred, kind and giving ... don't settle for anything else in someone else in a romantic intimate attachment.

Caley, even though you didn't write it to me, this really resonates with me. I'm going to print it and hang it somewhere I can see it.

[Penelope35]

I apologise for not replying yet but I will. He keeps sending me messages and I am not in a really good place right now... .I haven't responded though.  It's torture and it's my fault that I let it happen

[WoundedBibi]

Is he texting you? Can you switch your phone off so you don't have to see them? Is changing your number an option?

Don't blame yourself, you've done enough of that already. 

[Penelope35]

Yes he keeps texting to tell me how much he loves me and misses me. I blame my self for reading them and not blocking his number! I can't believe I still have so strong feelings for this guy! He sends a text and my attachment is back like nothing has ever happened!

[WoundedBibi]

Breaking up doesn't mean the feelings are gone. You're still attached. He occupies your mind, heart and soul. Like someone else here wrote "like a tenant who isn't paying rent".

Detaching takes time. Give yourself time. If you're not ready to block his number, than at least don't read his messages, or switch off your phone when you don't need it. Or, if this is an option for you, get a second SIM card. Give that new number to all the loving and important people so you can use it all day long, and put in your old SIM card only when you are strong enough to read the messages, or put it in 1 x per week, then hand it to a trusted friend and have her/him delete the messages so you don't have to look at them.

Try to stay away from reading them now, he's trying to weaken your strength and he's succeeding...

[gotbushels]

Hey Penelope35

Oh btw no one said it but I feel lonely sometimes too on my birthday, even with loads of company, so if you felt unusually lonely on that day I want to normalise it 

I know... .I just wish my heart would catch up... .It's a good thing I have things planned for today. And a good circle of friends who won't allow for me to be alone on this day. Thank you Fanny

Your heart will catch up eventually.  It is great you have a good circle of friends.  Enjoy your birthday with people who actually care for your well being.   This can be the present you give yourself. 

I agree with C.Stein. Your heart will align. But if you can help your heart, would you?

Does it feel better to let his texts come in?

Penelope you made the decision to NC him, and you know you've broken NC before, why are you making it harder for yourself?

Yes he keeps texting to tell me how much he loves me and misses me. I blame my self for reading them and not blocking his number! I can't believe I still have so strong feelings for this guy! He sends a text and my attachment is back like nothing has ever happened!

But the fact is, the actions - all of them - are the truth.

For some reason, it took me a loong time to fully recognize that my ex's words and actions rarely aligned.

I know... .I broke no contact so many times and always ended up in a much worse place... . This is the first time I stick to it for so long because this time at least my head knows that I can't have a relationship with him. My heart is still behind

Be kind to your heart and help it along. It can't carry you all the time... .

Your positive decisions and your own wellbeing is your choice Penelope, things like this are as important as the day you initiate NC, they just don't feel that way.

If you really want to, you can turn off your phone, and do something that requires you to get active or out of the house. Not on-call, not meeting friends to dwell on it, go for a swim or a walk and take your mind off it. Go do something you enjoy that will be effective for you. Think of the other things you have in your life. These things help your heart.

I hope you find rest.

[gotbushels]

Caley and CStein respect to you both.

No right or wrong here, I'm not questioning either of you, but I want to offer a positive perspective on what could be more constructive action.

Whether the BP knows he's hurting someone or doesn't, or has intention or doesn't shouldn't factor into decision making for the non.

What matters are the facts.

We know pwBP traits have a tendency to not have 'normal' thinking. So to attempt to understand what is often not understandable is folly. In fact it can be a destructive habit for a non.

E.g. The BP says "oh i love you, loved you like i never loved before, don't ever leave me please, let's spend forever together, i wish i met you years ago". Then dysregulates, goes out drinking, gets drunk, cheats on the non, then needs to get fetched because they're passed out on the street somewhere and vomiting on themselves. I don't care what the intention is. Assess the actions.

If one dwells in the "intention" of a non too far, then it promotes FOG. Just add abuse, sleep-deprivation and stir well. This played into me being stuck for months.

<EDIT> I don't want to come across as being unsympathetic to BP thinking CStein, please don't take me to be saying that.  I do agree with your last post on the potential variety of borderline thinking. I want to make it clear I'm not generalising BPs, but for romantic-SO nons like Penelope, handling the SO BP is what I think would be prudent to focus on. 

[C.Stein]

<EDIT> I don't want to come across as being unsympathetic to BP thinking CStein, please don't take me to be saying that.  I do agree with your last post on the potential variety of borderline thinking. I want to make it clear I'm not generalising BPs, but for romantic-SO nons like Penelope, handling the SO BP is what I think would be prudent to focus on.

I don't think that and I agree.  In the end the actions are the only thing that matter, PD or not. 

Any one of us can speculate on what our respective borderline intentions and thoughts motivated their actions but it is still speculation or at best an educated guess based on your knowledge of that person.  I feel it is necessary for people to understand it simply isn't as cut and dried as they are all knowingly malicious in every hurtful action because in my case it wasn't true.  This isn't denial or making excuses it is objective fact. 

The more stories you read on the board the more you realize the nature of the disorder is so variable that blanket assumptions of behavior simply don't apply.  This isn't to say there aren't many similarities but just everyone be aware that borderlines are just as different as they are alike.

[Caley]

C.Stein ...

I'm sensing that you might have felt that I've been critical towards what you have said. And, if I have offended you I apologise. I do get it ... yes, there were times in my own experience that it seemed to me that my partner seemed totally unaware that her behaviour could be interpreted as hurtful. And, on occasions that I'd talk to her about it (and these things related to both our relationship and her relationships with her family, friends, work colleagues, etc.,) she would react, or it appeared to me that way, that she was surprised.

In cases were someone's behaviour is socially accepted in wider society as being boundary busting, in terms of what wider society judges to be acceptable/unacceptable behaviour, especially in intimate/romantic relationships, cheating (emotionally and sexually) is pretty academic. So, when I posted, I was referring to Penelope's situation. Yes, there are many shades of grey between black and white. And, I am very well schooled in what research has to say about people with BPD.

Within the field of Psychiatry and Psychology there is a feverish debate taking place about whether or not 'anti-social' behaviour is resultant of factors such as genetic disposition, environmental considerations and psychodynamics. Many believe these anti-social behaviours should be categorised and explained away as 'mental disorder' (biological disposition) whilst many other argue that it is more related to 'character disorder' (just plain misbehaviour unchecked and excused) than biological, neurological factors. Either way ... you will not get any psychiatrist or psychologist, that are worth their salt, to categorically state they know the answers to these 'behaviourall disorders'. What is very interesting is that when psychiatrists and psychologist approach, in therapy, the character disordered approach ... evidence shows a good deal of success. The approach is to not find excuses, or justification for anti-social behaviour outside of the person themselves, but to guide an individual to the realisation that they have no other option (if they want to enjoy healthy attachments) but to become responsible and accountable for the things they do. In essence ... not buying into bulls?t, minimisation, illogical justification and intellectual rationalisation is a very effective way to aid someone to make better decisions (for themselves ... which has a positive impact on their relationships).

There are currently two separately published 'go to's' dealing with mental disorder. Limiting this to the DSM volumes ... the increase in mental disorders from the DSM I ... .the DSM V has now grown to list, fabulously, circa 6000 mental disorders. I would also like to point out that the DSM 'bibles' are funded by the pharmaceutical industry which provides drugs to 'aid' such disorders. You can probably tell I don't have shares in them! My point is this ... a great deal of revenue is made in the promotion and belief that biological and neurological factors are what drives people to act like complete arses. When I was growing up (and you might relate to this too or something similar, I suspect you do) ... a thick ear from the local bobby ... and a further thick ear from my father for getting a thick ear from the local bobby ... did the trick (for those that are the other side of the pond ... a 'bobby' is a policeman).

I am very accepting C.Stein of your take (and the explanation of your experience) that pwBPD (and co-morbid other traits) do sometimes 'know' and at other times do not 'know'... if you will accept my take that sometimes things can be, most definitively, either black or white. A light bulb is either on or off ... and when there's a dimmer facility the light bulb is still on ... not off. Yes, there is mental illness and mental disorder ... at the same time, buying into "a child 'trapped' in an adults body is a green light to an emotional marauder. And, what you hear, as a result of this belief, is "you can't criticise or punish me for a disorder that is beyond my control". When people commit legal crimes they are punished with imprisonment. When people commit emotional crimes ... in todays world they're given excuses.

I can relate to Penelope's situation because it has startling resemblance and correlation to my own. Here's the thing ... a person that loves another person doesn't elicit attention, admiration and adoration (sexually) from other people because they understand, that if they did, it would hurt the person that they have declared that they love. A healthy, loving person would be abhorred by this. And, healthy loving people do not 'mess up' and say 'I love you and miss you' after transgressing a fundamental law without committing to huge reparation post humble, heart filled apology ... not 'It was because of you' but 'Ouch, I am ashamed of myself for the agony I have put you through and I will show you, through sustained action, that I am sorry ... and I will not do this to you ... ever again'.

This man is not loving Penelope ... he is abusing her. He doesn't love her ... he loves feeling powerful that he can do what he wants, when he wants, and she'll take him back ... pour her love into him regardless of how sh?tty he treats her. And, all the while she believes that her love will conquer (which doesn't interest him because he is fuelled only by positive or negative emotional response) ... she will live her life giving to a man who has no compassion for her whatsoever. "Hey, yeah ... OK ... I have been cheating! But, I cheated because you looked at me funny ... Oh, and by the way, have I explained how awful my ex-wife treated me? I've only ever wanted you!"

I'd gamble a mortgage his ex-wife and his supplementary supplies of adoration have heard the same words from his mouth.

PLEASE? A spade is a spade ... an arse is an arse ... and a douche bag is a douche bag. Penelope's chap is a ratbag ... and there's a chap out there, for her, that would chop her current bloke's head off for someone with her qualities.

Diagnosis doesn't matter in the long haul ... behaviour is significant because behaviour defines character.

Best wishes.  

[C.Stein]

I'm sensing that you might have felt that I've been critical towards what you have said. And, if I have offended you I apologise.

I didn't feel that way Caley and most certainly not offended.  No worries.  Thank you for the consideration and I can understand why you might have thought that.  At times I can be rather blunt.  

I don't have time to give your post the attention it deserves right now but I will when I get a chance.

In the meantime, my views on accountability.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=288926.0;all

[Caley]

Caley and CStein respect to you both.

No right or wrong here, I'm not questioning either of you, but I want to offer a positive perspective on what could be more constructive action.

Whether the BP knows he's hurting someone or doesn't, or has intention or doesn't shouldn't factor into decision making for the non.

What matters are the facts.

We know pwBP traits have a tendency to not have 'normal' thinking. So to attempt to understand what is often not understandable is folly. In fact it can be a destructive habit for a non.

E.g. The BP says "oh i love you, loved you like i never loved before, don't ever leave me please, let's spend forever together, i wish i met you years ago". Then dysregulates, goes out drinking, gets drunk, cheats on the non, then needs to get fetched because they're passed out on the street somewhere and vomiting on themselves. I don't care what the intention is. Assess the actions.

If one dwells in the "intention" of a non too far, then it promotes FOG. Just add abuse, sleep-deprivation and stir well. This played into me being stuck for months.

<EDIT> I don't want to come across as being unsympathetic to BP thinking CStein, please don't take me to be saying that.  I do agree with your last post on the potential variety of borderline thinking. I want to make it clear I'm not generalising BPs, but for romantic-SO nons like Penelope, handling the SO BP is what I think would be prudent to focus on. 

I agree ...

I'd like to add too ... that whilst we might perceive their actions to be nonsensical ... to them ... their behaviour is completely logical when you understand what it is they are eliciting ... repeatedly, daily.

[Caley]

I'm sensing that you might have felt that I've been critical towards what you have said. And, if I have offended you I apologise.

I didn't feel that way Caley and most certainly not offended.  No worries.  Thank you for the consideration and I can understand why you might have thought that.  At times I can be rather blunt. 

I don't have time to give your post the attention it deserves right now but I will when I get a chance.

It's OK to be blunt ... I didn't take it as being blunt ... I took it as your direct experience and that you were expressing it.

One planet ... 7 billion worlds.

[jhkbuzz]

Penelope35: you may or may not have yet heard about a member named 2010 - her posts are legendary on these boards.  As I've been reading through all the responses to you, it made me think of a response that 2010 gave to a person who had to attend an event with her ex. While the circumstances are not the same as yours, the message can greatly benefit you.

______________________________________________________



Original post: If I were a lucky person he would not engage me in a conversation, but I am not usually so lucky.

2010:  What does luck have to do with intent? Nothing. What does luck have to do with willpower? Nothing. If it is your intention to engage him in conversation, luck (or bad luck as it appears) is only an excuse to continue dialogue with a person that hurt you.

Having to be in the same place with him is nothing less than having to go grocery shopping while you're on a diet. You don’t go into a supermarket and find yourself in the cookies and candy aisle because you're unlucky.  You might want to tempt fate and walk the aisle to prove something to yourself - but for the most part that's setting yourself up in order to fail - and it's your addictive brain talking *instead* of your rational reason. The addictive brain loves to blame bad decisions on "luck."

If you happen down that cookie/candy aisle without thought, and then pick up a box of Hostess Ding Dongs just to sniff them - you'll find out pretty quickly that one sniff leads to a touch, and a touch leads to a read of the label, then... .the Ding Dong gets thrown into the cart. What's it going to hurt? Certainly the Ding Dong wants this, right? The Ding Dong says, "Why hello, you've obviously been thinking about me. You obviously care. And I care too - I care that I have you right where I want you. What a coincidence you walked down this aisle. To see me? Now, touch me, tell me how you like my new bald headed snowball wrapper - ssssh - don't speak - take me home... ."

Addictive thought doesn't want you to think about the first defense (don’t go down the aisle) BUT if you find yourself in the aisle, do not loiter - do not make small talk. Get away - do your business shopping and LEAVE. Do not sniff the Ding Dong, do not touch the Ding Dong and do not read the label to figure out if Ding Dong's ingredients are healthy. They are not. He is a Ding Dong. A ding dong is only empty calories - and if you take a bite you will get a sugar high only to crash and burn later with nothing to show for it.

Put the Ding Dong down.

______________________________________________________

His texts to you are the Ding Dong. If you continue to read them, you will eventually cave - it's just a matter of time.

Put the Ding Dong down.

[WoundedBibi]

Penelope35: you may or may not have yet heard about a member named 2010 - her posts are legendary on these boards.

______________________________________________________



2010:  :)o not sniff the Ding Dong, do not touch the Ding Dong and do not read the label to figure out if Ding Dong's ingredients are healthy. They are not. He is a Ding Dong.

Put the Ding Dong down.

______________________________________________________

roaring with laughter 

My ex is a Ding Dong (not that I've ever seen one in real life as they are not sold over here but I get what it is  ).

I can just picture it... Me bumping into him near the office, him with a sour face and me spotting him and starting to laugh because I think "put down the Ding Dong". I would be in so much trouble for laughing at him in his face

[JQ]

Penelope, Jhkbuzz, & Group,

Jhk, Thank you for the walk down memory lane ... .and for the very needed laugh that made me snort my beverage ... .LMBO     For WoundedBibi ... .here is the description of the Ding Dong and a link to what it looks like. They are great to have in the summer when they're frozen ... .but it's been a couple of decades plus since I've done that.  As 2010 points out ... .they are certainly NOT healthy ... .like that of a s/o swBPD ... .I stop sniffing the Ding Dong ... .I DO NOT touch the Ding Dong ... .I have put the Ding Dong down ... .I miss the Ding Dong ... .that moment on the lips ... .the taste ... .that brief moment in time when I took that first bite ... .then what came after was nothing but work ... .running and running to get rid of the Ding Dong ... .a moment on the lips ... .PUT THE DAMN DING DONG DOWN !   

DING DONGS ® THE KING OF CAKES IS AT YOUR DOOR.

You know you love Ding Dongs if the sound of the doorbell makes you drool. And if that’s the case, you’re not alone. Because the Ding Dong is the king of all cakes. And in this majestic land of snacking, the Ding Dong reigns supreme over many loyal subjects

www.hostesscakes.com/products

@Caley, I admire & commend you on your straight forward take on things BPD ... .it's called tough love where I come from. Sometimes you need it ... .you need that smack in the face to wake the hell up from the nightmare you're in ... .you need to swallow the medicine no matter who nasty it taste ... .

@C.Stein, I admire your perception on things BPD ... .although not as "blunt" as Caley you too have a straight forward approach to the BPD world ... .

No two people are the same in a world of 8 Billion people ... .and although those with BPD exhibit similar behavior ... .they are still individuals and you can not predict the actions of one BPD based on the actions of another BPD ... .there were moments that I believe my exBPDgf didn't know or comprehend her bad behavior ... .then there were moments where she was quite lucid and I paid attention to those moments to know that she knew she was "broken" ... .the things she said & some of her actions gave me clues to her future behavior ... .her therapist gave me clues to her behavior ... .as hard as I fell for her ... .and wanted more then anything for it to work ... .the plain, simple and BRUTAL truth is ... .it was never going to work out ... .the further I dove into the world of BPD ... .the more I learned I had to save myself ... .I had to learn of my own behavior of a codependent, the NON ... .and as painful as it was ... .it was needed to save myself ... .I still have my moments of weakness like anyone ... .but I remind myself of the brutal truth of the situations and that moment passes ... .

Just a month ago today ... .she called my phone and let it ring once at 7am to let me know she was thinking of me ... .on her way to work ... .then again she called me the same day at 4 pm to ring just once, register on my phone to let me know she was thinking of me ... .on her way home from work ... .what did I do?  I did NOT return her call ... .I thought about a brief pleasant moment ... .then I thought ... .PUT DOWN THE DAMN DING DONG!     LMAO

anyone else care to put their two cents in as to why she called, let it ring once, just to register her call ... .all ideas are welcome ... .I look at it as an exercise of those of us "recovering from a BPD relationship" to learn from ... .to exchange ideas ... .to help each other explore new facets of our thought processing ... .

this chain has been a very interesting and educational ... .thank you all for your thoughts and ideas

J

[WoundedBibi]

Thoughts:

- thanks... now I want a Ding Dong 

- being with a pwBPD is like the gin & tonic effect; when you go to the pub the first sip of the first G&T is the best. I enjoy the rest of the glass. I can have another one. But all of it is slightly disappointing; none of it tastes like that first sip. Haven't had one for months (painkillers so no booze) but still remember the G&T effect

- the calls... Yes, "thinking of you" would be an option. If she was your gf I would find it endearing; "Just letting you know I'm thinking of you".

In this situation it feels more like "remember me? Why don't you give me call... " disguised as "thinking of you". Especially because you didn't respond to the first call and a second followed. If you succumb and she's not in the right mindset she can claim to have dialed your number by accident; it only rang once, no message left. If you succumb and she is in the right mindset she can try to recycle you.

My ex kept making remarks when we were supposed to be friends (a short period, torpedoed by me). "I think I need a nice blonde" and then walk away to get another drink.

Completely out of the blue: "I would like to buy you a bikini. Yeah... I would like to see you in that... "

They were attempts to reel me back in. But it would not have surprised me he would have rejected me if I had responded. Just to see if he still had a hold on me. If he could play with me, make my emotions flare up again.

[C.Stein]

I am very accepting C.Stein of your take (and the explanation of your experience) that pwBPD (and co-morbid other traits) do sometimes 'know' and at other times do not 'know'... if you will accept my take that sometimes things can be, most definitively, either black or white. A light bulb is either on or off ... and when there's a dimmer facility the light bulb is still on ... not off. Yes, there is mental illness and mental disorder ... at the same time, buying into "a child 'trapped' in an adults body is a green light to an emotional marauder. And, what you hear, as a result of this belief, is "you can't criticise or punish me for a disorder that is beyond my control". When people commit legal crimes they are punished with imprisonment. When people commit emotional crimes ... in todays world they're given excuses.

I can accept and agree sometimes things are simply black or white however in the case of personalities I don't believe this is the case.  To extend your light bulb analogy lets look at good vs. evil within a person.  I don't feel it could be said that any one person is all good or all evil with nothing in-between.  We are in essence gray, some good and some evil exists within all of us.  However isn't that what some do here, paint their ex's all evil?

I understand the hurt and pain that is caused by these relationships and sometimes it might be easier to see our ex's as all evil in order to deal with that pain.  Yet when we are honest with ourselves we did get involved with these people because there is good within them.  I honestly don't see how it can be constructive to view any individual as all black or all white, all evil or all good, always malicious in intent vs not.  Isn't that type of thinking very "BPD" like in itself?

In Penelope's case her ex is probably emotionally distraught and hurting, reaching out with declarations of love.  While this could certainly be seen as extraordinarily selfish given the circumstances it doesn't necessarily follow that it is being done to intentionally hurt or manipulate her.  This is also not a behavior unique to pwBPD as I am certain many of us "nons" have done the same reaching out.   I don't know if Penelope has spelled it out to him (that continued contact is hurting her), but if she hasn't then maybe she should?

With respect to the child trapped inside an adult body I think you misunderstood what I was saying.  No one deserves a free pass for wrong or hurtful behavior, be they child or adult.  Seeing a borderline as a child inside an adults body, emotionally speaking, is a means to understand them and their behavior.  It should never be construed as meaning they should not be held responsible/accountable for their actions.  If you don't mind me asking, why do you feel it means a free pass? 

Here's the thing ... a person that loves another person doesn't elicit attention, admiration and adoration (sexually) from other people because they understand, that if they did, it would hurt the person that they have declared that they love. A healthy, loving person would be abhorred by this.

I agree, within the framework of a monogamous relationship.  I am relatively certain my ex replaced me, at least emotionally, months before I was thrown away.  While I might be able to forgive her I can never forget or excuse this behavior.  In my mind a line was crossed that can never be uncrossed.  It has also been the most difficult thing I have had to come to terms with post trash bin.  

And, healthy loving people do not 'mess up' and say 'I love you and miss you' after transgressing a fundamental law without committing to huge reparation post humble, heart filled apology ... not 'It was because of you' but 'Ouch, I am ashamed of myself for the agony I have put you through and I will show you, through sustained action, that I am sorry ... and I will not do this to you ... ever again'.

I think we all know that generally speaking borderlines are incapable of this for the most part.   I completely understand the feelings of betrayal, the inaction by our SO to repair the damage done and to take the necessarily steps to avoid doing it again.  My ex destroyed me and our relationship because of her inability to do this.  Am I angry at her for this?  :)amn straight I am!  That said when attempting to look at it through the eyes of a borderline I can somewhat understand why she couldn't.  To be clear that does not mean I am making excuses or overlooking her behavior and inability to accept responsibility for her actions, it is simply an attempt to understand why it might have happened.

This man is not loving Penelope ... he is abusing her.

I don't believe anyone here has disputed this.  So what can we do to help Penelope detach and move on in a constructive and healthy manner?  

[Caley]

You make some valid points C.Stein.

I would agree, with you, that Penelope's chap is experiencing some hurt ... but not for the reasons you might think ... because you do not think like him. NC will be experienced as a narcissistic injury. He isn't hurting and emotionally sad because he's suddenly had an 'aha' moment and realised he might just be losing the best woman he's ever met ... he's hurting because he has lost control ... control that Penelope has seized back by adopting NC. He'll do practically anything (even become violent) to shatter her attempts to remove him from her life where he can no longer continue to emotionally abuse her. He cannot allow this to happen. He cannot allow a person he considers to be inferior to him, to 'get rid' of him.

I certainly wouldn't recommend that Penelope explain that his texts are hurting her ... this will only fuel further and increasing attempts to get her to meet with him face to face, where he can better manipulate her. In cases where someone displays clear narcissistic character traits ... this is the last thing one should do. Telling him this sends him the message that she still cares about him deeply (after all that he has already done). Not good. And, he'll be encouraged to ramp up his efforts to keep trying to contact her. By text, email, telephone calling, social media ... and then if all that fails ... he'll turn up at her work or worse, turn up on her doorstep, penitent and on bended knee, begging for 'just one more chance'!

Depending on whether he has set up a new primary source, prior to P adopting NC ... and whether he is high or low functioning ... his campaign to defeat her attempt will either be sustained energetically for a few months or fade away within weeks.

If she lets him back in she knows what will happen ... there'll be a brief respite where he'll treat her like a queen again (a return to the golden period of the relationship). Then he'll devalue her, triangulate, threat of loss and abandonment ... and then he'll discard her, again, only to charm her back once more to repeat the cycle.

Penelope's job is to weather the storm, remain firm and adamant that she needs to rid herself of this attachment ... and maintain that resolve until he finally does leave her alone ... his attempts to make contact will not go away entirely but they will fade. He may even wait a year or two ... then contact to say he's done a lot of work on himself and he's so very sorry he did those awful things ... the next thing is he's back in her life. A successful Follow Up Vacuum.

He needs to abuse. Positively charged emotion (fuel) such as her adoration for him is sweet ... but negatively charged emotion is sweeter. It makes him feel good to know that he is able to inflict atrocities and remain so magnificent (in her eyes) to be allowed back to carry on with his agenda. It makes him feel strong. Why does he need to behave this way? Because deep within himself he knows that he's weak ... and he does these things to keep that little, pathetic, weak creature from view.

It is very likely he has two or three other women that he is cycling through the stages of idealisation, devaluation and discarding manoeuvres. So, if he isn't abusing Penelope ... you can put a few dollars on the bet that he'll be abusing some other woman. He will do this repeatedly for the rest of his life unless he meets someone who is better at his vile games than he is, or, until his body and looks finally fail him. This isn't likely though because they're good at spotting their own kind and know that there's no fruit to be gained with their interactions.

I feel it is a big, big error to label him BPD ... he'll not mind because then he has another weapon in his toolkit called 'See! I told you it wasn't my fault. It's my genes fault!'

Pen ... keep away from his genes and his jeans, or Levi's or Wranglers ... !

NC Pen ... NC, Nada, zippo, zero ...

[Penelope35]

Hi everyone

First I want to say thank you because your responses and discussion here have been of a great help to me.

It is very clear to all of us by now that not all people with BPD or BP traits are or act the same and that although there are so many similarities among the relationships described here, each of them is different too and experienced very uniquely by each one of us. I will try to explain exactly what my understanding is on whether or not the people with BPD in our lives (and specifically my ex) were intentionally hurting us. English is not my first language so I hope I can get through to you exactly what I mean.

As I said before, I don't consider my ex to have any cognitive impairment nor do I consider any of your exs as being cognitively challenged. On the contrary most of them sound like very intelligent people. They know right from wrong and of course they know that lying and deceiving are bad and hurtful for the person on the opposite end. On this board I have seen people talking about them as if they are pure evil and others handling them as innocent babies and believing that they should spend their whole lives miserable so that they can save them I went through that phase too. However, my understanding now by reading your all's stories, learning about BPD and having this personal experience is that the people don't start a relationship with the intention to hurt anyone, and when they do they always have an excuse for it, which THEY BELIEVE, which is the sad part. If I hadn't been on this board, I would probably consider my ex as a ... .-bunch of curse words-... .deceitful, emotionless, meanest, worst man on earth. And I would definetely be able to get over him more easily. But being on this site I think gave me the BPD perspective and explanations (not excuses) as to why he behaved the way he did.

For example, this man is married with kids, which I found out after the relationship was over for good. He says he is separated and only stays at his family house once or twice a week. However, all evidence show that he is there everyday, I don't and will never know the kind of relationship he has with his wife but he says they have not been a couple for years. His reasoning behind hiding this information was that in the beginning he believed I would back up if he had told me and as the relationship progressed he couldn't find the courage to tell me because he believed I would abandon him. My understanding is this: HE KNEW he was hurting me by not telling me me and of course HE KNEW  that it is not ok to hide this kind of information with somebody who you see is investing in you and your relationship with them. His emotional maturity or I should better say immaturity and his greatest fear of being abandoned didn't let him act on those facts. If his story of being separated from his wife is true, or even if they are not separated but they are rather in a dead marriage, I would expect from a 40 year old man who claims he loves me to sit down with me and explain the situation, tell me his reasons of why he is still living with his wife and give me the opportunity to decide for my self  if I wanted to get involved in this or not. But he didn't because his purpose was to not be abandoned, whatever the prize for that. This doen't make him any less selfish of course. It was selfish and totally disregarding of me but he really believed that he had no other option if he didn't want to loose me. He wasn't just playing and thought oh well this is unecessary for her to know cause I will just dump her later on. I never got the impression that he was just a married man looking to fool around with somebody and it happened to be me. I hope you understand what I mean. The same goes with silent treatments, the fact that he is now sending me messages while I asked him not to and everything. Of course he knew he was hurting me during those. But it is his immature way to control me, it wasn' t to torture me for the sake of torture.

Some times he would cry when I would confront him about stuff during the relationship and he would say that he was not worthy of me, that he hated himself for making me sad and unhappy and that he wished I found the courage to end the relationship before I got more hurt because he couldn't find the strength to end it. He was devastated too but still couldn't act on it and couldn't do anything to reverse the trap that he got himself and me in. I hope you can understand that I am not excusing him for any of these. I am just explaining what I came to realise about what was going on.

I am afraid I picked up the ding dong though and I feel bad for saying this after all this discussion. I AM NOT PLANNING to go back with him though and I will not.The discussion here has helped me so much in not fooling my self again that I can have something more or something better with this man. I just couldn't stop my self after all those messages. I feel like I NEED to know the whole truth about his family situation, whatever that is so that I know what I need to process. I need to know if he is in a regular marriage because that would mean a bigger deceit towards me. Sorry if I have dissapointed you all

[once removed]

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