Helping fellow members or enabling?

[Sunfl0wer]

I have been dying to ask this question, for quite sometime... .

How do we post in a way that enables and facilitates growth to other members?  What are some techniques you observe that you love, or that you employ yourself?

Don't some members seem stuck in the same cycle even after months of advice they dismiss?

Don't you ever get this feeling... .  Am I really 'helping' or is this enabling a dysfunctional dynamic?

Am I actually wanting to help, more than this person wants actual help?

What have you found is the best way to post when you feel your words are falling on deaf (or 'not ready' ears?

... .

I am really trying to approach things pragmatically and compassionately in this thread vs venting.

Suggestions welcome!

Thanks guys!

[C.Stein]

Honestly is always the best policy IMO, even if it hurts to hear it.  The hard part is being honest without offending. 

[Sunfl0wer]

Yes, the hard part for me is that I often feel I have lots to offer yet I have to consider that the receiver... .well... .has a certain ability to receive.

So I struggle with giving it my all... .  Adding ALL of my good advice

Vs trying to meet them at their level of receptiveness.

I get invested to help sometimes... .  Then find that maybe I am the only one invested? 

Does this make sense?

I think I misunderstand a persons 'excitement' or urge for 'help' as actual investment in the process.

Hummm... .

Well, hopefully this will evolve to be a thread we can all gain from.

I'll be patient.

[C.Stein]

I think I misunderstand a persons 'excitement' or urge for 'help' as actual investment in the process.

What process would that be?

[Sunfl0wer]

Good question!

Lol!  Likely a process that I have decided and am imposing on someone to follow!

I suppose... .even if I use the tools on this site... .and feel I am following that as 'a process' ... .then I am still defining a path for another person.

Likely wise of me to NOT design someones path, but rather ask where theirs is?

Humm... .

Interesting.

I am missing stuff though... .but feeling closer.

[gotbushels]

Haha Sunfl0wer  

No worries. I too feel like I'm mentally shuddering at my screen and am like "dude... .that one is clearly your fault". Good point on enabling. I too don't know sometimes whether I'm enabling by participation. If I really think so, I just sit it out . I think of it using that famous lighthouse analogy... .

We are just one lighthouse. On the boards, collectively, we are many lighthouses. If a member wants to ignore the battery of lighthouses and just go on sailing in shallow water, such is life. We can encourage and offer advice, but in the end it will be up to the member to decide how they want to go about their business.

For these:

some members seem stuck in the same cycle even after months of advice they dismiss?

I just figure they will run out of long-term members who will interact with them. As lighthouses, we tend to "shine" where we think we would be most effective. If there is a member who can be better assisted, we will naturally spend our time there.

Techniques I love? Mirroring. It's like deflector shields and tie fighters.

[lbjnltx]

It is important that we meet people where they are.

It is important that when they arrive here that we validate them... .most have not had the needed validation from their family and friends.

We don't want to overload members with TMI as they are beginning their journey of discovery, that can be discouraging.

We need to exercise patience with everyone.  We all move through our journey at our own pace.

We want to lead others.  One way to lead is to use our own story to illustrate why we understand.  This builds trust.  We want to share information that is applicable and proven to be effective in situations like theirs.  When we are trusted the information we share is more likely to be received and applied.

We do make investments in others and hope that they are learning and improving themselves alongside us.  Members can get stuck sometimes.  It is up to us to know when to step back or keep investing ourselves.  It is also important to keep in mind that hundreds of other people are reading topics and benefitting from them even if the Original Poster doesn't seem to be at the time.

Hope this perspective helps.

lbj

[HopefulDad]

No sugarcoating.

No judging.

Break up long paragraphs.

Break up long posts.

[eeks]

There are a number of directions I could go with this.  I agree with what has been alluded to so far, the importance of balancing honesty with empathy, and knowing when to step back.

I used to be an advice-giver.  Then, around 2008 (when my sister was going through some conflict with her boyfriend and was talking to me about it) it occurred to me how annoying and not very useful I found it when my mother gave me advice, and I committed to what I referred to at the time as "helping others find their own best answers".  I am sure I still give advice (I'm giving you advice right now!) but I would say especially when it comes to interpersonal/relationship situations, there are so many emotional components that you could give another person the best, most correct advice in the world and they still couldn't implement it because they have to sort through their own emotions.  I see emotions not as "pesky things to be gotten out of the way so you can think clearly", but as energies when processed and seen through can actually inform effective decision-making.  And so I think the best thing that can be done for another person is to support that process. 

You may be wondering "how do I do that?"  This might sound odd, but I think that the better you know yourself, the more "tuned in to the situation" the support you give others will be.  Understanding your own emotions, motivations, needs (through therapy, Nonviolent Communication, etc.) allows you to "bring more of yourself" to interactions with others, so to speak.  It's an ongoing process and it isn't going to happen overnight.

That said, I could probably offer some basic guidelines... .validating (without necessarily agreeing) and asking questions (with real curiosity, not assuming you know the answers, the purpose of the question is to deepen the other person's understanding of their own situation).  I also think empathy can be challenging when it's an online discussion forum (so much of empathy is eye contact, body language, touch, and we don't have the benefit of that) but it can be done.

I just read this, it is in line with my views and experience  www.focusing.org/psychotherapy.html

[C.Stein]

and I committed to what I referred to at the time as "helping others find their own best answers".

I agree.  I call it helping you help yourself.  This is what I attempted to do, with some success, with my ex and other ex's that were "damaged".  Unfortunately they always end up leaving.  Not entirely sure if I should be hurt by that or proud.  

[Sunfl0wer]

Wow, such great stuff to read, reread, and ponder guys!  Great thread! Thanks!

... .still processing it all... .

and I committed to what I referred to at the time as "helping others find their own best answers".

I agree.  I call it helping you help yourself.  This is what I attempted to do, with some success, with my ex and other ex's that were "damaged".  Unfortunately they always end up leaving.  Not entirely sure if I should be hurt by that or proud.  

Humm... Sounds like you are saying that the result of setting good boundaries, repels those without boundaries?

... .

So, what keeps happening to me... .In all life... .

Even when helping someone to find their own answers, it becomes apparent, that their actions in the conversation are not matching their behaviors.

What I mean is... .

They say the want answers, but are really seeming to just keep you tied in engaging in circles for their own self soothing.  Even if you are asking them to help find their own answers... . They raise MORE problems vs actually engaging in problem solving process, they avoid a conclusion or path but continue in circles on the issue and seemingly are recruiting me to experience their drama world.

I initially believe the logical words... .then after 'dancing' realize, the behavior is communicating to me:

I am a person who is attracted to drama, dance in drama with me.

Like a revolving carousel, by then, I do not know how to get off that ride.

I cannot see the behavior, until engage in it. 

I then have to eliminate my original perspective:

This person is seeking growth

To the new understanding:

This person is recruiting drama dancers

... .

So a conflict... .

Yes, I realize our members did not get enough validation... .However, when we are directly discussing ways to self soothe, and redirecting to that topic, and I'm being engaged in 'the problem'... .Isn't validation at that point actually enabling the person to be aviodant in turning inward to apply self soothing tools?  If person needs to learn 'SELF' care, yet rejects actually performing it, not out of ignorance, but choice... .Then comes here... .To avoid self care... .Aren't we enabling?  (So odd to even determine that as it seems NPD of me to 'know' what another truly needs)

[eeks]

So, what keeps happening to me... .In all life... .

Even when helping someone to find their own answers, it becomes apparent, that their actions in the conversation are not matching their behaviors.

What I mean is... .

They say the want answers, but are really seeming to just keep you tied in engaging in circles for their own self soothing.  Even if you are asking them to help find their own answers... . They raise MORE problems vs actually engaging in problem solving process, they avoid a conclusion or path but continue in circles on the issue and seemingly are recruiting me to experience their drama world.

I initially believe the logical words... .then after 'dancing' realize, the behavior is communicating to me:

I am a person who is attracted to drama, dance in drama with me.

Like a revolving carousel, by then, I do not know how to get off that ride.

When someone says those "logical sounding words"... .you say you believe them. So... .going back in your imagination to a recent situation like this... .someone asks for advice or seems to want answers... .you're hearing their words... .what are you feeling at that moment?  What do you notice about your experience?  Slow the "tape" way down in your mind.

[Sunfl0wer]

On Validation... .

I wonder who else thinks this?

For me... .Giving emotional validation feels like a hug.  I think some of us... .Give 'too much' around here no?

If my child is in school hitting another kid... .

He comes home... .

I don't say come here Johnny, let me hug you.  Yes, school was difficult today, lets talk about this.  Lets talk about how you got frustrated so easy... .  Going on about and making Johnny's feelings seem more important than the event is the wrong message no?  I think Johnny's validation should be BIFF vs coddling.

There is a balance isn't there?  Isn't too much validation an issue?

I rather say to Johnny:

Hey Johnny, I heard you were pretty frustrated today.  Tell me why.

Ok, yea, when you are left out and not including, that IS frustrating.

Actually sincerely validate.

Then firmly discuss behavior, and how other kid deserves to be treated, etc.

So... .balance the validation right?

ALL validation is not helpful all the time is it?

[Sunfl0wer]

So, what keeps happening to me... .In all life... .

Even when helping someone to find their own answers, it becomes apparent, that their actions in the conversation are not matching their behaviors.

What I mean is... .

They say the want answers, but are really seeming to just keep you tied in engaging in circles for their own self soothing.  Even if you are asking them to help find their own answers... . They raise MORE problems vs actually engaging in problem solving process, they avoid a conclusion or path but continue in circles on the issue and seemingly are recruiting me to experience their drama world.

I initially believe the logical words... .then after 'dancing' realize, the behavior is communicating to me:

I am a person who is attracted to drama, dance in drama with me.

Like a revolving carousel, by then, I do not know how to get off that ride.

When someone says those "logical sounding words"... .you say you believe them. So... .going back in your imagination to a recent situation like this... .someone asks for advice or seems to want answers... .you're hearing their words... .what are you feeling at that moment?  What do you notice about your experience?  Slow the "tape" way down in your mind.

You are right eeks!

I want to save them!  :'(

I am then angry at them for rejecting my saving!  How dare they! Lol

[eeks]

I want to save them!  :'(

I am then angry at them for rejecting my saving!  How dare they! Lol

Aha.  What needs of yours would be met by saving them?  Another way of putting that would be, what is your investment in saving them?

I'm not implying that you don't care about them at all, just trying to help you clarify your own motivations.

[flourdust]

I think it's helpful to consider that the people come here in different states of mind and with different amounts of baggage.

Some people are posting when they're upset. It's understandable. It can be a form of self-soothing to write about what's bothering you, while the pain is still raw. I try to be careful in responding to those folks, because they may feel differently once they've returned to some emotional baseline. I think there are some posters who may be in this cycle -- post here when they are upset, agitated, angry, frustrated -- and then deflect all advice and feedback when they are feeling more positive and in control, only to repeat this the next time their life or relationship is disrupted.

Some people are posting just to vent. They don't really want to make changes; they just want a place to rant. They differ a bit from the first group above because they generally only post their complaints and don't talk about changes they want to make. Other than sympathy, I don't know that much can be offered to them.

There's a third group -- a small one, but real, I think -- that has significant mental illness. There are regular posters who I'm pretty sure have their own personality (or other) disorders that distort how they think, feel, and remember things. An example would be someone with BPD who projects BPD onto their partner and then comes here to complain about it. This is unfortunately pretty normal for groups dealing with mental health issues. (Did you know that clinical psychology programs have to screen for mental illness in applicants for just this reason?) I'm hesitant to diagnose someone through a computer screen -- especially when we're all dealing with mental illness and irrational situations which can make any of our stories seem crazy -- but there are some posters who consistently demonstrate this sort of distorted thinking and feeling in their interactions with other posters. I'm not sure there's a way to successfully counsel those folks on this board, but the true veterans might have more insight into that kind of history.

[joeramabeme]

We want to lead others.  One way to lead is to use our own story to illustrate why we understand.  This builds trust.  We want to share information that is applicable and proven to be effective in situations like theirs.  When we are trusted the information we share is more likely to be received and applied.

Thanks lbjnltx, I think this is correct.  And it is very difficult to do partly because there are so many responses coming from so many different members. 

When I arrived I soon learned that Members that had a designation like "Ambassador" etc. were the ones that I tried to tune into and did indeed trust them while walking me through some difficult questions.

JRB

[joeramabeme]

Hi SF, good question.  I think there have been a lot of great answers given.

Myself, I came here starved for information and was able to immediately benefit from most responses.  I have had some stuck points along the way and kept repeating the same questions and challenging the responses - stuff that I see clearly now, but not at the time. 

I doubt there is a one-size-fits-all approach.  Sometimes I know that I cannot be helpful in a situation but may offer encouragement.  Other times, the topic is in my wheelhouse. 

":)o some members seem stuck"?  Absolutely.

"Am I really 'helping' or is this enabling a dysfunctional dynamic?" Doubtful that you are enabling unless encouraging the person to stay stuck.  There are posts where others pile on in a negative fashion, that feels enabling.  I can recall a number of posts talking about how pwBPD are evil and then watch others vigorously defend and build on that point of view, this is enabling.

"Am I actually wanting to help, more than this person wants actual help"; I think this is a question about us personally.   Perhaps it even borders on what some may label as being codependent.  You care.  Good for you!  It is natural to cross this boundary - and only harmful when we know that is has been crossed and chose to stay there all the same.

"What have you found is the best way to post when you feel your words are falling on deaf (or 'not ready' ears?"  I usually don't.  It becomes apparent when someone is not ready.  I think the only thing you can do is echo back their statements in the form of a question.

Given all you know and the thoughtfulness with which you present it, I think your posts have been very helpful to many, myself included... .

[anon72]

 

I know that I felt like this on the Quitting Smoking board at times (although I am no longer on it) after I had quit smoking for 3-4 months, as so many people said they wanted to quit, but then their words and actions seemed like they indicated otherwise.  Which was frustrating, and many of them were sabotaging their efforts by steps they were taking - very obviously.

Interesting thread.  You are right, we/you can only help people find their own way/answers - that is all that can be done.  Yes, there will always be people that seem to just want to vent or be negative etc. - but if your advice/leading by example helps a small group of people - then hasn't your advice/suggestions been worthwhile?  I personally would tend to stand back if someone has a track record of being negative (without the goal of working on themselves) and only wants to vent rather than work on their issues.

And for me, coming to this board after so many years in the dark and wondering why I felt the way I did, has been like a huge "lighthouse"! Incredibly helpful and benefitted me a great deal

I have found your (Sunflower/Eeks etc. etc.) advice very helpful for the record  However, it is not always easy putting the advice into practice when you have these bad habits/broken records in your head (as I know you appreciate) - it takes time to process stuff/move through it, get unstuck when stuck (which I am sure we all do at times through this process).  I think we do need to remember also that we can't fix anyone (like was previously mentioned) - only that person can decide whether or not they want to take advice onboard (assuming that we are ready for it).

However, I do understand it can be frustrating if people just want to be really negative about their BPD Partner or Mother etc. etc. - as that is just continuing the dance (assuming that they do not want to work on their issues)  I still find myself talking about her with my T - but generally - I have tried to let go and just work on me - so that I can stop the dance in the tracks as much as possible.

Hope that all makes sense - as I am a newbie in those whole thing (2 months).  

[anon72]

On Validation... .

I wonder who else thinks this?

For me... .Giving emotional validation feels like a hug.  I think some of us... .Give 'too much' around here no?

If my child is in school hitting another kid... .

He comes home... .

I don't say come here Johnny, let me hug you.  Yes, school was difficult today, lets talk about this.  Lets talk about how you got frustrated so easy... . Going on about and making Johnny's feelings seem more important than the event is the wrong message no?  I think Johnny's validation should be BIFF vs coddling.

There is a balance isn't there?  Isn't too much validation an issue?

I rather say to Johnny:

Hey Johnny, I heard you were pretty frustrated today.  Tell me why.

Ok, yea, when you are left out and not including, that IS frustrating.

Actually sincerely validate.

Then firmly discuss behavior, and how other kid deserves to be treated, etc.

So... .balance the validation right?

ALL validation is not helpful all the time is it?

Much of your commentary in this post makes perfect sense to me.  Apologies for hogging the thread  

I personally think that the validation needs to be balanced and sincere.  And there needs to be a reality check as well there - rather than too much validation.  If I am actually clearly creating more drama by what I am doing - and am avoiding the issues - then I personally would like someone to say so - in a gentle manner.  

That actually helps, rather than only being told - yes - that is so horrible etc. etc. and no real reality check that I am actually creating more drama by my actions. Particularly as so many of us have dealt in drama all our lives (unwillingly and unawares for much of my life - by my FOO - am sure it was also this way for many others) - and forget that we are actually unwillingly creating more drama at times.

[lbjnltx]

One of the possible benefits of validation is being able to self soothe.

If we self soothe we give our reason mind an opportunity to join in with our emotional mind.

When they join we call this wisemind.

When we are in wisemind we may be able to problem solve and/take responsibility for our emotions/situation.

How do we help members move towards wisemind?  Validation

Once they are validated and move towards wisemind what can we do if they seem stuck?  Ask Validating Questions. We want to keep the responsibility for problem solving where it belongs... .with the person asking for help.

I have written these words to an OP that seems stuck "You have received many wise responses here.  Which of these options do you think will work for you?"  and "Are you ready to change how you handle these types of situations?"

[C.Stein]

Wow, such great stuff to read, reread, and ponder guys!  Great thread! Thanks!

... .still processing it all... .

and I committed to what I referred to at the time as "helping others find their own best answers".

I agree.  I call it helping you help yourself.  This is what I attempted to do, with some success, with my ex and other ex's that were "damaged".  Unfortunately they always end up leaving.  Not entirely sure if I should be hurt by that or proud.  

Humm... Sounds like you are saying that the result of setting good boundaries, repels those without boundaries?

It doesn't really have much to do with boundaries with me.  I will help my SO to regain/build self-confidence, independence, self-esteem though support and guidance.   Once this is occurs I am thrown away.  This hasn't happened with all my SO's, just a few, but getting thrown away by those woman does hurt a lot more.

So, what keeps happening to me... .In all life... .

Even when helping someone to find their own answers, it becomes apparent, that their actions in the conversation are not matching their behaviors.

If this is happening then I might suspect they haven't found the answers.  It can be very easy to fall into the trap of providing answers instead of helping them find the answer within themselves.  When someone finds their own answers you are more likely to see results.  That said don't underestimate the power of denial and it's ability to muddy the truth.

Yes, I realize our members did not get enough validation... .However, when we are directly discussing ways to self soothe, and redirecting to that topic, and I'm being engaged in 'the problem'... .Isn't validation at that point actually enabling the person to be aviodant in turning inward to apply self soothing tools?  If person needs to learn 'SELF' care, yet rejects actually performing it, not out of ignorance, but choice... .Then comes here... .To avoid self care... .Aren't we enabling?  (So odd to even determine that as it seems NPD of me to 'know' what another truly needs)

Speaking from my own experience, when faced with a hurricane of emotions self care is the last thing on your mind.  Self-soothing at this stage is the only thing that is needed and quite frankly in many cases might be the only thing that can be managed.  At this stage it is more about weathering the storm of your own emotions, the self-care comes when the storm begins to lessen and your logical/rational mind sees the light of day again.

[Sunfl0wer]

I want to save them!  :'(

I am then angry at them for rejecting my saving!  How dare they! Lol

Aha.  What needs of yours would be met by saving them?  Another way of putting that would be, what is your investment in saving them?

I'm not implying that you don't care about them at all, just trying to help you clarify your own motivations.

Saving them helps me to have an identity, a role, feel worthy.

Without helping others, I often feel useless, or anxiously anticipating feeling useless.

Also, sometimes when I see someone in pain, and they allow me to hear all of their hurt... .I like for them to never feel shamed or abandoned, but instead, help them find a space with me to exist in the pain and be provided love. It feels (whatever the opposite of projection is) like I am hugging my inner child and giving it love.  It feels lovely.  So when it is not received, I feel rejected, my inner child feels jipped.

This is an important problem for me because my sense of protecting that person from their own shame or abandonment... .Means I don't always back away or put up a boundary when I should.  These are the times I feel 'lost.'

[eeks]

I want to save them!  :'(

I am then angry at them for rejecting my saving!  How dare they! Lol

Aha.  What needs of yours would be met by saving them?  Another way of putting that would be, what is your investment in saving them?

I'm not implying that you don't care about them at all, just trying to help you clarify your own motivations.

Saving them helps me to have an identity, a role, feel worthy.

Without helping others, I often feel useless, or anxiously anticipating feeling useless.

Also, sometimes when I see someone in pain, and they allow me to hear all of their hurt... .I like for them to never feel shamed or abandoned, but instead, help them find a space with me to exist in the pain and be provided love. It feels (whatever the opposite of projection is) like I am hugging my inner child and giving it love.  It feels lovely.  So when it is not received, I feel rejected, my inner child feels jipped.

This is an important problem for me because my sense of protecting that person from their own shame or abandonment... .Means I don't always back away or put up a boundary when I should.  These are the times I feel 'lost.'

Good self-awareness.  Try this... .imagine one of these people who triggers your "saving" program, coming towards you, or if it's online reading their message... .feeling whatever emotions you feel... .and just for a moment, sitting there and doing nothing. 

Yep, that's right, don't launch into helping them... .just sit with whatever you feel, even discomfort.  If it's really intense, only do it for a few moments, that's OK to start off.  This is just for practice, in a lower intensity situation (your imagination/memory, no one is actually there). 

What comes up for you when you do that?  Try to get underneath any thoughts/worries ("... .but I don't have an identity!  now I'm useless!) to the experience of the feelings, even physical sensations.

[once removed]

what a thoughtful and insightful thread!

You are right eeks!

I want to save them!  :'(

I am then angry at them for rejecting my saving!  How dare they! Lol

i cherish my care taking qualities, and the fact that people in my life come to me for advice. neither my care taking qualities nor advice make up my entire personality or what i have to offer. it seems obvious, but at some point it really clicked for me that i cant save everyone and its not my responsibility. i found that incredibly freeing. it doesnt mean im any less idealistic or compassionate when it comes to human suffering, or any less interested in what i can do about it. it does mean i can experience those things without being consumed by the urge that follows them.

when it comes to advising others, there are innumerable things to consider. some grief is more complex than other. some personalities are more challenging than others (navigating requires great skill that ive definitely not completely achieved). circumstances, life experience, personality, even brain chemistry all play in to where a person is at when youre advising them. for me, it really all boils down to "if i like to help others, how can i best do that?". if my focus is entirely on the person/personality, i may find myself going in circles, or trying different techniques, getting nowhere, frustrating myself and the other person. listening is fundamental, but so is signalling that i am listening, in order to build trust. others have described the communication skills involved with that.

my natural urge is to put myself in the other persons shoes, imagine what would help me or what id want to hear, and start telling the person what theyre experiencing, and what to do about it. thats not all bad. it involves a certain amount of empathy. i try to remember im not this person and im not in their shoes and even if i have experienced exactly what they have, i have not experienced it in exactly the same way that they are, nor am i experiencing it now, for that matter.

as someone said, knowing yourself goes a great distance. for me it means i can surmise the situation and how i can best help them, and what my motives are, or perhaps determine im not the person to help them.

great thread Sunfl0wer 

[Sunfl0wer]

Gotbushels:

Techniques I love? Mirroring. It's like deflector shields and tie fighters.

When I think of mirroring, I tend to think in terms of the mirroring that occurs in the beginning of a relationship during the idealizing phase.

Can you explain more about the type of mirroring you are referring to?

I have an idea what I think you mean, just not quite sure.

[gotbushels]

Hey Sunfl0wer 

I'm glad you asked.

The type of mirroring I often use is like this. When I talk to someone and I feel they are (1) trying to project an emotion on to me, or (2) I happen to feel like I'm 'sponging' it somehow--then mirroring is useful. I can use mirroring to 'keep the buckets' separate. I define the buckets as a representation of the bunch of emotions that each person brings to the conversation. Each person has one. I mentally 'see' the buckets in my head as the mirroring technique. This helps me keep emotions where they belong. You keep your fish in your bucket--and I keep mine.

I've surprisingly used it in my workplace quite a lot. You might find it can speed up some conversations with colleagues. It's useful for those of us who are supposed to be lighthouses--but end up following the boat instead. Does that clarify?

I'm a little confused as to your usage in the idealising phase. I'm thinking that in this phase, there are a lot of ups. Why would one want to mirror those :P Maybe to maintain control of a total view... interesting. I've only really used it 'defensively'. Perhaps you could explain your thinking? 

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey Sunfl0wer 

I'm glad you asked.

The type of mirroring I often use is like this. When I talk to someone and I feel they are (1) trying to project an emotion on to me, or (2) I happen to feel like I'm 'sponging' it somehow--then mirroring is useful. I can use mirroring to 'keep the buckets' separate. I define the buckets as a representation of the bunch of emotions that each person brings to the conversation. Each person has one. I mentally 'see' the buckets in my head as the mirroring technique. This helps me keep emotions where they belong. You keep your fish in your bucket--and I keep mine.

I've surprisingly used it in my workplace quite a lot. You might find it can speed up some conversations with colleagues. It's useful for those of us who are supposed to be lighthouses--but end up following the boat instead. Does that clarify?

I'm a little confused as to your usage in the idealising phase. I'm thinking that in this phase, there are a lot of ups. Why would one want to mirror those :P Maybe to maintain control of a total view... interesting. I've only really used it 'defensively'. Perhaps you could explain your thinking? 

I have to say, yesterday I tried having a conversation and imagining buckets.  It was pretty helpful.  I do tend to get muddled up in being empathetic that I'm dipping into their bucket.

Here is link from here on mirroring:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58298.0;all

My ex did this in the first year.  He adjusted his wants and needs to match what would appease me.  I suppose many of us mirror to some extent when dating.  (It was not necessarily a conscious thing) Yet it hid who he really is.

[Notwendy]

I don't think it is possible to "save" someone unless they want the help. I will post something if I think it is possibly helpful, but the other person has to be willing or able to receive it. Sometimes it doesn't happen, and that is frustrating. Then, I realize that the poster is not the only one reading it. It may help someone else. Sometimes when I am reading a thread, I think - wow that is good advice--- for me too. So because it has helped me to read advice for other people, I think perhaps my posts will help an unknown number of people.

One thing I am grateful for is the people in my life who let me vent, but then, turned the mirror on me. I think it would be enabling to take sides, and say yes, it's all the other person's fault. But that can be enabling. We can validate- say wow that is hurtful, but then consider the dynamics.

One idea that stood out for me is the concept that we choose partners who match us emotionally in some way, and that we are the other half of the dysfunctional dance/drama in conflicted relationships. It isn't pleasant to have the mirror turned on us. Some people will reject it, but by doing this, I can hope to not be enabling.

If I find I have said all I think I can say, and it doesn't seem to be making a difference, then I tend to back off from those threads when I start to feel frustrated.

[Sunfl0wer]

Once Removed:

Thank you for the way you frame things!  

I'd like to be able to cherish my caretaking. (Atm, I am feeling skeptical of myself.)  I like pondering over the idea of 'cherishing' parts of myself.

neither my care taking qualities nor advice make up my entire personality or what i have to offer. i

So important for me to read again and again.

it does mean i can experience those things without being consumed by the urge that follows them.

This reminds me of the earlier concept of the buckets.