When is it time to be done with grieving/sadness?

[joeramabeme]

My T seems mystified that I am still so hurt by the ending of my marriage (3 months divorced / 9 months since her departure).  T keeps telling me that I can meet someone with same qualities as ex and, that in my age group, there are more women than men and so odds are in my favor.  She has wondered/proposed that my sadness is trauma related and so has recently presented a new idea to me that my continued sadness and hurt is probably the result of a re-injured core wound from childhood when parents emotionally abandoned me and my trust got "shattered".  Her theory is I got re-triggered when ex re-"shattered" my trust by leaving.  She now wants to focus our sessions on my "trust issues".

I am feeling kind of self conscious, confused and even angry about all of this.  My intellect says – of course I am still sad and hurt – my ex kept repeating she would never quit working on the marriage and then one day turned all that off and changed the tune altogether.  All the life goals that she and I worked on were suddenly flushed down the toilet.

But how do I know if my feelings are outside the norm?  Doesn’t feel like trauma to me – but what do I know – I had it and didn’t even know it.  I am sure the ending of the marriage had links to trauma, but now the mourning process has a trauma tie to?

Outside of therapy I have been accused of being “old-fashioned” and even “childish” about my view of marriage; that it lasts forever and you keep working on it.  She and I agreed to this before we married; it was part of the reason I said yes to marriage with her, I knew I never wanted to get divorced – I heard her say the same.

Friends keep saying, “Get over it and move on”.  Now the message in therapy seems to be “your past is keeping you from moving on”.  Am I from another planet?  I am so disappointed that this is the message coming from everyone and in what feels to me like a relatively condensed period of time since divorcing.  I even have a close woman friend that says she is ready to meet someone new and fall in love even though she is still not divorced.

I am still working on acceptance, some days are better than others; but I still have a lot of days, even now, where I have sudden moments of “I can’t believe she really left”.  I don’t see this going away today or tomorrow.  Honestly, I still love my wife, BPD and all.

I have readjusted back into much of my life – as best as possible – but the feelings I have for her and us still remain – even more so when I see or interact with all the women that “put the odds in my favor” ( ).  I understand that my marriage was not working well but I am no less sad about the loss of it and all the dreams that we had together even while I understand that there is a certain pragmatism about moving forward and "letting it go". 

Can others share their thoughts on what the T is saying and their own experiences with this? 

[HurtinNW]

Personally, my opinion is our culture has developed some strange and arbitrary ideas on grief. We think it is supposed to end at a certain time, like a sports game. We've oversimplified 'stages' and expect people to follow them, and then all of a sudden healing is supposed to happen and everything is bright and shiny and new all over again. Healing accomplished!

I don't think any of that is true.

Grief is an intensely complicated process. Sometimes it is prolonged because we have core wounds. Other times it is prolonged because, hello, we really loved that person. Imagine losing a child. That grief doesn't just go away. It lasts, and lasts, and lasts. I know this because I lost a child. I miss her every day. That is not a sign of weakness. It is a sign of our strength and vulnerability, our amazing human ability to love beyond measure. 

In many ways grief is how we honor our love for another person. It is our last testimony. As Ray Bradbury says, "When you have been loved you never die." You live on in the memories of others.

I don't want to diss your therapist because I suspect they may be on to something. They want you to examine your core wounds and that never hurts. But I also do not agree with the modern culture that love is something you put through the spin cycle and then you are done.

Take as long as you need to grieve. Make sure that you have done it as much as you need. You will feel better about yourself in the end.

PS: I have a friend that lost his wife to cancer. It took him ten years to grieve her properly. Now he is happily remarried. If he had gone out before that, pressured by well-meaning friends, he would not have been in the place to love again. Really, honor your feelings here.

[gotbushels]

I've heard 4/5 parents who suffered from loss of children 'express stability' after 1 year. The remainder is still about 1/5.

I've also heard people who don't treat grieving properly, or reach premature conclusions, can create later problems for themselves.

[Lifewriter16]

It seems to me that the time you are taking to grieve is not unusually long. Most people approach loss by covering it over with a new relationship. It is good that you are not doing this.

However, I think that exploring core wounds could be very beneficial. You have nothing to lose. If there aren't any there, you'll know. It there are, you'll be released from their effects whether visible to you or invisible. I'd recommend an open mind on this but to not buy into your therapist's assessment of how long you should grieve for. It takes as long as it takes.

Love Lifewriter

[thisagain]

I think it's perfectly fine for you to still be grieving. I'd also imagine that you made some progress during the first six months, and then the divorce brought back more intense feelings.

For me it depends on the length of relationship and the intensity. My first relationship lasted three months and I still wasn't over it two years later, but it was my first relationship at age 20, and I had some emotional issues of my own that contributed. When I see people who are still ruminating over a three-month relationship that ended more than a year or two ago, I start to wonder what's going on with them that they haven't looked at because they're so focused on analyzing the ex. But there are many factors (abuse, reopening of FOO wounds, etc) that could explain it.

About this T, I'm torn because exploring your core wounds and how your past influenced your feelings during/after the BPD relationship are very important. But, it seems like you're feeling invalidated and judged for still grieving, and she shouldn't be making you feel that way. If you feel comfortable, it might be worth telling her that you do want to explore anything that could be contributing to your sadness, but the way she's framing it is making you feel judged, invalidated, etc.

[Sunfl0wer]

I wonder if this may be helpful:

www.elephantjournal.com/2014/05/everything-the-buddha-ever-taught-in-2-words/

When I read your words, it sounds like you are saying that you expected your reality, your identity, to maintain like a fixed point in life and others are suggesting this is naive thinking.

I grew up seeing couples stay together forever, never ever divorcing.  To me, marriage is defined as a forever commitment.  I think I get what you are saying.

I was shocked that my relationship was ending.  I could not imagine another identity or reality than the one I was living.  Yet reality is a subjective thing.

Something that has been helping me is the idea of 'contructs' and understanding that the identity that I cling to from the relationship is what I mostly did not want to let go of.  It was my own construct tho that I was attached to... .as reality is subjective.

Honestly, letting go of this identity construct was the most gut wrenching loss of the whole relationship. 

Grieving for me happened in small manageable pieces... .

... .loss of step daughter

... .loss of being a couple

... .loss of cultural matters he brought

... .loss of daily habits of companionship

... .loss of having a tether to share life events

Etc

As I grieved my loss.  I literally grieved for pieces of the loss one at a time.  When a wave of grief would hit me... .I would actually ponder with curiosity, then find what this grief was and realize for example, while last month I grieved not having his family as my own, this month I grieve collaboration on household matters.

However, it seems that after grieving all the pieces of what I lost... .

The finale huge grief left is... .

Is the grief of my identity.

While the others losses feel gut wrenching.  To grieve my identity loss, feels unbearable... .  Maybe it is like the big bang theory and a universal explosions to give birth to a new universe.  Then all that exists will exist on that new universe.

It helps me to accept change by thinking of life as a type of reincarnation. 

I am working on my next identity post r/s and this is the next life for me.

[Eyeamme]

Sunflower,

I have a tattoo on my arm that says "When I let go who I am, I become what I might be".  I look at it every day to help me remember that my identity is not just as a mom with a daughter.

[anon72]

I just read a great article by Tim Lawrence that may be helpful (particularly as our culture has this crazy concept of a strict timeline for "grieving" : www.timjlawrence.com/blog/2016/3/23/wallowing

[eeks]

My T seems mystified that I am still so hurt by the ending of my marriage (3 months divorced / 9 months since her departure).  T keeps telling me that I can meet someone with same qualities as ex and, that in my age group, there are more women than men and so odds are in my favor.  She has wondered/proposed that my sadness is trauma related and so has recently presented a new idea to me that my continued sadness and hurt is probably the result of a re-injured core wound from childhood when parents emotionally abandoned me and my trust got "shattered".  Her theory is I got re-triggered when ex re-"shattered" my trust by leaving.  She now wants to focus our sessions on my "trust issues".

Do you feel like your therapist helps you process and grieve the end of your marriage?  Maybe it's taking longer than she thinks it should because she's not helping you as effectively as she could.  Not to assume it's her shortcoming, but just putting it out there as a possibility.

You'll note I said "how long she thinks it should take" because like the other members who have responded, I don't feel qualified to tell you how long it should take. 

Of course, your childhood still may have something to do with it.  Also, has your therapist considered that the emotional "residue" of a relationship with a pwBPD might be greater, and that that has something to do with why it's taking you longer?

[bravhart1]

I have heard/read that women mentally "move out" from their spouses six months before they actually do or say anything. And that men do not start to grieve the loss of the relationship until after it actually ends. Having said that, assuming that it's a fairly true statement, then perhaps you aren't as slow to recover as she thinks. And maybe a male therapist would understand you better?

[joeramabeme]

Wow!  Thank you all for the thoughtful replies.  I will try and respond to all in my next post.

Having read all this and also reading the article on "Grieving", I have to add some important points to my grieving that I have only  intermittently processed for myself. 

My Mother passed away in December and her funeral and my divorce were 1 day apart.  The divorce was first, and my newly ex wife came to the services and was very supportive in a healthy way.

Two months prior to that I lost my Uncle.  He was really the closest person to me in my family; kind of a Father figure for me and I was the Son he never had.  So, I had a lot of loss in a very short period of time.

It has been somewhat strange that I have had to toggle the processing of each of these losses.  As the divorce was approaching I so desperately wanted to ask my wife not to follow through - I really was going to ask - and then my Mom died.  It completely knocked everything off the plate that I had been thinking about.  I was so overwhelmed that all the pending divorce grief stopped and I went into confusion and had a mental/emotional crash that lasted for nearly 2 months with virtually one month on the couch. 

I still find myself toggling sadness and memories from all 3 losses.  The three people I lost at the end of last year were the nucleus of my family.  The marriage hurt the most though, we were supposed to have our own family and never did - which is another part of what I am grieving.

Reading the Timothy Lawrence article made me realize, I have not shared any of this b/c I do not want to seem like a wuss or seeking pity.  Only now do I begin to acknowledge this is a legitimate reason to feel grief and probably has a real impact on my feelings of sadness and sustained sense of grieving.

Thank you for listening.

[joeramabeme]

In response to what others have posted:

Thank you HurtinNW, gotbushels and Lifewriter16: I am going to do some exploring of past with the therapist and thanks for affirming that it is not too long a period for processing... .

thisagain, I think you are on to something, invalidated is what I feel.  There may be some unhealthy dynamics with the T and I am seeing her role in the end of my marriage as also needing closure.  Her trying to tell me what I need for closure with wife is kind of feeling hurtful as I blame the T for poor marital counseling that perpetuated my ex's BPD behaviors and mindset.  I think this process could go on for awhile longer.

Sunflower & eyeamme - Thanks for the Buddhist link.  I have read this one before and there is some profound information about life that is written.  I am sure this has a place in my recovery and is a good place to start putting perspective on my life and how it really is the way the river flows.

anon72- WOW!  YES!  That article hit the spot.  This is my favorite quote:

"If life feels like hell one moment and then you’re caught in a wave of oh ___ I might actually work through this and then the next day you can’t stop weeping and then a few days after that you help another wounded soul and you feel like you’ll still be of service to the world, keep it up and keep going.

Why? Because this is the nature of grief. It's one of the messiest, nonlinear, paradoxical experiences we endure in this life. Some days you'll feel like you're moving forward in confidence—even in hope—while other days your pain will penetrate you to your core. This is normal."



Like hell one moment, weeping the next, helping someone the moment after  . . . fits to a tee!


Eeks I have been trying to process lingering feelings I have that the T brought in a level of dysfunction to the marital counseling with my ex uBPDw and that I believe the T's approach added to the demise of my marriage.  I have felt a desperate desire to get her to see the errors she made and how I think she negatively impacted the chances of correcting my marriage - while we were still a couple in her office.

The T will not accept responsibility and is very defensive to what I say and finds ways to pass off her faults as either stylistic choices or choices my ex and I made while under her care.

IMO, the T still doesn't "get it" and says stupid crap like you can find another women with similar traits.  I want to say to the T that not to worry if your brother dies, you can find someone else with similar traits.  I know that sounds harsh but that is what feel like she is saying to me about the loss of my marriage - no problem - just replace with similar person.  The T has hit nerves with me multiple times.  After 6 years of individual counseling and 4 years of marital counseling I asked the T for an explanation to my disbelief and lack of understanding when my wife announced her departure, the T said; "that's just the way R does herself".

My ex has been seeing this T for 20 years, and despite all my personal pleas to this T (while we were still married) to tell wife that she is BPD or at least confront her behaviors - she never will.   I have had a secret hope that the T will help my wife "see the light" and then my ex will want to come back to me.  I know this will never happen - particularly as long as this T is with her.  So - hearing T offer explanations as to why I am still grieving brings me to anger and desire to get T to see my POV, just like I did with my ex... .  while grieving it is unlikely to ever happen.

bravhart1: Yes, I have heard the same stats.  In addition, I have also heard that it takes men 2 years to process a relationship loss.  So, using my divorce date, I have about 21 months of grieving remaining.  I sure hope it doesnt take that long, I am pretty sure it will not... .

[thisagain]

I would drop this T like a hot potato and find a new one. The same T saw your ex for 20 years and did marital counseling with the two of you? That is some bad juju.

And more concretely, I would guess that this T has some really gnarly countertransference going on with your ex. Part of being a good T is recognizing when you're out of your depth and/or the therapeutic relationship has been dragging on for too long without making progress. She should probably have had a talk with your ex about terminating 15+ years ago. The fact that she didn't indicates to me that she isn't capable of handling BPD and instead she let herself sucked into your ex's drama. As you know pwBPD can be very charming and elicit a lot of sympathy with their stories of persecution... .

And another issue, which you hint at, is that it sounds like you might be projecting some of your feelings about your ex onto the T. As in, you really want your ex to admit her fault in the demise of the marriage, admit she has BPD, see your POV, etc. And it's highly likely that this T is over-identifying with your ex's point of view. So you're both probably acting out the same dysfunctional dynamics from the relationship, with the T in your ex's role. Does that sound familiar?

[Sunfl0wer]

I get the sense that you feel like you are hanging on to the T even though you feel like it isn't working so well?  Because you want to hear her validate you?

Please clarify if I am not understanding.

It sounds like you are hanging on for hope for something she just isn't able to give?

Maybe RA is needed here?

[Grey Kitty]

My T seems mystified that I am still so hurt by the ending of my marriage (3 months divorced / 9 months since her departure).  T keeps telling me that I can meet someone with same qualities as ex and, that in my age group, there are more women than men and so odds are in my favor.  She has wondered/proposed that my sadness is trauma related and so has recently presented a new idea to me that my continued sadness and hurt is probably the result of a re-injured core wound from childhood when parents emotionally abandoned me and my trust got "shattered".  Her theory is I got re-triggered when ex re-"shattered" my trust by leaving.  She now wants to focus our sessions on my "trust issues".

My $.02:

Your T is probably right that there are some underlying issues you have that caused this breakup to be so hard on you.

Your T is also correct that you could find somebody else who has just as many issues as your ex does... .Start a topic on the detaching board asking for PMs with contact info of all the other member's exes so you can get somebody with the same issues!    

And a broken clock shows the right time twice a day, but that doesn't mean it is doing a good job of telling time.

That said, what you are getting from your T doesn't sound like good therapy to me, even if some statements are true. I'd suggest looking for a different T as well.

[joeramabeme]

Maybe RA is needed here?

Quick reply - what is "RA"?

[Sunfl0wer]

*Radical Acceptance

[joeramabeme]

I would drop this T like a hot potato and find a new one. The same T saw your ex for 20 years and did marital counseling with the two of you? That is some bad juju.

And more concretely, I would guess that this T has some really gnarly countertransference going on with your ex. Part of being a good T is recognizing when you're out of your depth and/or the therapeutic relationship has been dragging on for too long without making progress. She should probably have had a talk with your ex about terminating 15+ years ago. The fact that she didn't indicates to me that she isn't capable of handling BPD and instead she let herself sucked into your ex's drama. As you know pwBPD can be very charming and elicit a lot of sympathy with their stories of persecution... .

And another issue, which you hint at, is that it sounds like you might be projecting some of your feelings about your ex onto the T. As in, you really want your ex to admit her fault in the demise of the marriage, admit she has BPD, see your POV, etc. And it's highly likely that this T is over-identifying with your ex's point of view. So you're both probably acting out the same dysfunctional dynamics from the relationship, with the T in your ex's role. Does that sound familiar?

Thanks thisagan, yes - this "does sound familiar" and I have suspected as much right from the beginning.  Early on in our marital sessions I mentioned it several times.  I was pretty sure I had a legitimate point but the T kept saying it was ok, and also, more compelling for me; I was between a rock and a hard place with my wife at the time who told me she only wanted to work with this T but I could go out and try to find someone new.  I tried to find a new T and gave up after a couple of introductions that were clearly unsuitable and that I was sure my ex would have said No to.

Interesting how my "non" dynamic has played out so completely with the T as well as my ex.  Over time, the T told me that my perceptions were not accurate or skewed with trauma type thinking and this lead me to deeper levels of confusion.  During the course of our marital sessions, I also was undergoing trauma therapy with this T - falsely believing this was the cure that would get us over our difficulties - An "all my fault" type of thinking - So I went along with what was being said as I really wanted to save my marriage, have a family etc. - even as I sensed this is not right.  Further, my wife kept echoing (think beating me over the head) with the same messages T was saying - I did not have a snowball chance in hell of changing that.

In writing all this out and listening to others feedback, I suspect that part of my deep sadness deals not only with my ex wife leaving me but also that the T - while a really good trauma therapist - was way off base about my marriage and her marital counseling skills and I strongly believe had a very negative impact on the outcome of 1- My marriage and 2- My wife's ability to see herself (and by extension: stay with me). 

Of course, the events that happened are not as linear and clean as I would have it be in my own mind (and writing), but this is a pretty good sketch of what transpired.

I have made a decision to somehow say goodbye to this T.  I say "somehow" b/c - just like my ex - I don't know how to do it or more accurately, I am scared to do it - feels like a really large loss - an admission that none of this worked - (interesting feeling that popped in my head when I just wrote this; "my parental figure could not save the day and I really will get destroyed [alone/isolated etc]"

. . . I will start a new post for this topic - it has really mushroomed in my awareness since starting this thread. 

Perhaps saying goodbye to the counter-transferrence version of my ex will give me some needed closure.  I still have a large sense of betrayal from this T, even while knowing the T herself is simply another person - warts and all. 

[joeramabeme]

My T seems mystified that I am still so hurt by the ending of my marriage (3 months divorced / 9 months since her departure).  T keeps telling me that I can meet someone with same qualities as ex and, that in my age group, there are more women than men and so odds are in my favor.  She has wondered/proposed that my sadness is trauma related and so has recently presented a new idea to me that my continued sadness and hurt is probably the result of a re-injured core wound from childhood when parents emotionally abandoned me and my trust got "shattered".  Her theory is I got re-triggered when ex re-"shattered" my trust by leaving.  She now wants to focus our sessions on my "trust issues".

My $.02:

Your T is probably right that there are some underlying issues you have that caused this breakup to be so hard on you.

Your T is also correct that you could find somebody else who has just as many issues as your ex does... .Start a topic on the detaching board asking for PMs with contact info of all the other member's exes so you can get somebody with the same issues!    

And a broken clock shows the right time twice a day, but that doesn't mean it is doing a good job of telling time.

That said, what you are getting from your T doesn't sound like good therapy to me, even if some statements are true. I'd suggest looking for a different T as well.

Thanks GK. 

I have been thinking about your idea of starting a new thread on the Detaching board - seems like a reasonable way to avoid dealing with all this stuff.  I guess this is the equivalency of taking the "blue pill"!  A thought I have had more than once.   

[Grey Kitty]

I have made a decision to somehow say goodbye to this T.  I say "somehow" b/c - just like my ex - I don't know how to do it or more accurately, I am scared to do it - feels like a really large loss - an admission that none of this worked - (interesting feeling that popped in my head when I just wrote this; "my parental figure could not save the day and I really will get destroyed [alone/isolated etc]"

. . . I will start a new post for this topic - it has really mushroomed in my awareness since starting this thread. 

Perhaps saying goodbye to the counter-transferrence version of my ex will give me some needed closure.  I still have a large sense of betrayal from this T, even while knowing the T herself is simply another person - warts and all. 

That's a powerful reaction to your relationship with your T, which is (by definition) a professional relationship, despite all the intimacy involved in it.

My negative comments about your T (and likely other posters as well, but I won't speak for them) is based on the professional relationship with your T--Somebody you have hired to do work for you, in helping you find insight and change yourself--somebody who has a poor track record, but still has the job despite not being very effective at it for years.

... .this is a lot more complicated, isn't it!