Just got through months of hell with a BPD survivor...

[FeelingBitter]

Hi everyone,

I seriously can't believe I'm posting in this thread, but my feelings of bitterness and irritation are too great to ignore. I am an advocate for trauma survivors, although I would describe myself more as an 'activist/community organizer" because I am not a traditional advocate with a mental health center. I push for policy changes and a lot of survivors reach out to me, and my role as I see it is to connect them with the right support people, media to tell their stories, etc.

I currently am located in a college town, and last fall someone from the rape crisis center called me because she knew about my work and wanted to connect me with a survivor whose case had been horribly mishandled by the university. It turns out I knew this girl - I had seen her at local events around sexual assault awareness, and she always presented herself as very 'with it,' even if she came off as a bit forced. I met with her, and she was a completely different person when we met at the rape crisis center - she spoke in a baby voice, looked at both of us with big doe eyes, etc. I chalked it up to the trauma of talking about her story and didn't think anything of it.

Without going into details, her case is very compelling, and the university DID mishandle it immensely. I do not doubt her story - that she was horribly sexually assaulted, and then re-traumatized by the school when they failed to take her case seriously. I just want to be very clear about that from the get go.

Later on, this survivor - let's call her Anne - was working with me on her case file, and at one point she mentioned that she went to the hospital for suicidal ideations the day she found out about the outcome. She then said "I didn't want to be committed, so they diagnosed me with anxiety." A few days later, she sent me a cryptic text message along the lines of "I was wondering, do you know how I can get admitted to the hospital?" Keep in mind I had JUST told her I was going to bed, and she also didn't respond to my message asking her if she was ok. That was the first time I really got exposed to her manipulative behavior.

I called the woman at the rape crisis center, and she kind of sighed and said "yes, I wanted to warn you about her" and then told me that what she was doing was a game she had done to her many, many times, that she had a mental illness (without telling me, but later confirmed she thought it was borderline, with sociopathic tendencies) and that in the 10 years of working with people who had mental health issues (before she worked at a rape crisis center, she worked at a mental health clinic), she was one of the most manipulative clients she had EVER had. Needless to say, this freaked me out a bit. We had a meeting with the survivor, and told her that if she ever mentioned she was suicidal again, we were going to call the hospital. She then told us she felt she was 'losing control' but we told her that we weren't going to take that risk again.

I don't want to get into every detail, but since the fall I have been working with her, and it's been one drama after another. If I don't give her attention for a hot sec she manipulates her way back into making sure I'm engaging with her. She's not threatening suicide anymore , but there was plenty of other drama: "fainting" once on campus so the paramedics were called (even though she refused to go to the hospital), telling us she set a 'date' for her imminent death, etc. etc. i mean there's seriously so much I don't know where to start.

What really scares me though, is how she switches things on and off. One minute she's doe-eyed and speaking in a baby voice (she does this more with careworkers, people in the system she's trying to manipulate, I've noticed), the next she's speaking totally normally. One minute she's crying hysterically, the next minute she's totally fine. Recently, she revealed to me that she told her counselor that she's "always known something is wrong with her."

She really started to get MEAN however, when her friend disclosed to me she was also assaulted. I started to go to police meetings with her friend, etc, and then all of a sudden, Anne started to up the game. So for example, her friend was abused by a family member, and her mother didn't believe it. Now all of a sudden, Anne is constantly talking to me about how her family gives her 'financial support, but not emotional support' and how her family are these horribly abusive people even though they were there with her at every meeting from the moment she reported her case.  Granted, her parents are going through a divorce, and her mom is kinda a mess, but still. The point is, I didn't hear about any of this until she learned that her friend had disclosed to me about her abuse. She's very, very narcissistic and it's always 'me me me' every time.

The worst though, was after I spent an entire weekend with her helping her get a case file written, because she claimed she 'couldn't remember.' We didn't finish it, but I gave her a book as a present, which she was excited about. When I told her that I was giving the same book to her friend, all of a sudden her entire cadence changed, and she said she didn't want to accept it because it had a triggering word on the cover. I was like, is this b___ serious? Lol. Like take the book and then put it in a corner! She then proceeded to blow me off for two days, which was a BIG mistake on her part because on Wednesday she realized her flight to China was taking off a day early, and she had to finish off the entire file in 12 hours!

Which brings me to my last annoyance. She WAS able to finish the case file, and in just 12 hours too, which shows that her whole "I can't work on this without you cause I can't remember" was complete bull. Secondly, it put me in the stressful position of having to submit my part last minute. Third, the final file she submitted needed edits. When I edited it and submitted it to her, telling her to re-submit it officially, she actually had the nerve to complain about it, saying the office was now going to get confused!

I'm posting here because this whole case has left a very, very bitter taste in my mouth. I am SO glad she is gone for three months, and so is the head of the crisis center. Not once in the last few weeks has she thanked me. She's a user and abuser, a wholly manipulative person who even admitted to me she only 'reaches out to people when she needs something from them." I read recent research that shows borderline women are actually female psychopaths, and I definitely think she leans more on the sociopath spectrum.  She shows NO remorse, calculatingly manipulates situations, needs to always be the center of attention, and seems to have limited empathy. I also think she's a narcissist - she's obsessed with her image, is in a million different clubs (none of which she really takes a lot of leadership or is invested in), and even said to me she wants to be a corporate lawyer because she 'wants the power and connections." What 19 year old girl says that?

One more addendum. This whole experience for me has reinforced the difference between trauma and a personality disorder. Anne's friend, the incest and rape survivor, clearly suffers from PTSD. She became promiscuous when she got to college, has trouble sleeping, suffers from depression. She is a lovely person though. Anne however, may suffer from trauma, but it is clear that the root of her dysfunction is her borderline/sociopathy.

Anyway, I guess i feel upset and bitter because it is so frustrating to give so much of myself to someone, only to have them be entirely ungrateful. She is coming back into town by the end of the summer, and I'm supposed to help her with a few things. I'm going to be heading out though most likely to look for a job (she doesn't know that). I am posting her to vent, but also wondering if you had any coping tools to suggest. The problem is that if I sit down and had a conversation with Anne about how she treated me (I've tried before, trust me), I have no doubt she would just turn it against me and throw me under the bus. Mental illness or not, I just don't see her as a good or nice person.

What's sad is that this case has kinda turned me off direct service, even though I was a case manager for another org a few years back. But I don't have the mental health background to deal with someone like this, and it's all been very stressful.

[Turkish]

Hello FeelingBitter,



I'm sorry that you went through this to the extent that you feel turned off by this person to the extent that you want to change what you do. Transferring somewhere else sounds like a good step in healing though.

Kudos to you and the other woman at the clinic for asserting the boundary that you did. pwBPD have poor boundaries themselves, and it's easy to get caught up in the drama. Leaving aside what happened to her, she sounds like she casts herself as a victim. It's a way to avoid accountability, aside from being attention-seeking. What you told her about the book triggered rage. She probably saw herself as suddenly not special.

Given that it sounds like you may have to work with her for a time, you may benefit from the

Lessons on the Improving Board, specifically the communication tools in Lesson 3. You may need to "improve" things for a time in order to finish your work. The goal is to reduce conflict. In addition, this material may help:

TOOLS: Responding to hostile email

I've found that Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm also works when tailored verbally.

Let me know if this helps.

Turkish

[FeelingBitter]

Thank you so much for your response! I went to my counselor yesterday and b___ed about it (she's worked with a lot of borderlines) and she told me that setting boundaries is the name of the game. Once she comes back from China I'm going to be firmer about that. She suggested telling her that with an upcoming criminal case, I need to set more professional boundaries and to defriend her on facebook, etc (this is a big part of the problem - we were friendly before i knew about the assault so she considers me an advocate/friend). I thought that was a brilliant idea.

I might also have a convo with her friend too, and let her know that I don't think it's a good idea to talk about her case with Anne because she might compare them.

Your quote: "Leaving aside what happened to her, she sounds like she casts herself as a victim. It's a way to avoid accountability, aside from being attention-seeking. What you told her about the book triggered rage. She probably saw herself as suddenly not special." That's EXACTLY what happened. All of a sudden she wasn't the most special, most important person, the one who'd been victimized the most.

Thank you for the resources, I will look through them. I feel better today than I did yesterday. Resolving to set boundaries is very empowering!

Hello FeelingBitter,



I'm sorry that you went through this to the extent that you feel turned off by this person to the extent that you want to change what you do. Transferring somewhere else sounds like a good step in healing though.

Kudos to you and the other woman at the clinic for asserting the boundary that you did. pwBPD have poor boundaries themselves, and it's easy to get caught up in the drama. Leaving aside what happened to her, she sounds like she casts herself as a victim. It's a way to avoid accountability, aside from being attention-seeking. What you told her about the book triggered rage. She probably saw herself as suddenly not special.

Given that it sounds like you may have to work with her for a time, you may benefit from the

Lessons on the Improving Board, specifically the communication tools in Lesson 3. You may need to "improve" things for a time in order to finish your work. The goal is to reduce conflict. In addition, this material may help:

TOOLS: Responding to hostile email

I've found that Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm also works when tailored verbally.

Let me know if this helps.

Turkish

[FeelingBitter]

Also, can borderlines also have narcissistic and sociopathic traits? The whole "I'm so special" screams of narcissism, and sometimes the calculating ways she manipulates people feels very sociopathic... .

[FeelingBitter]

Also, I have a question.

While this girl is not threatening suicide anymore, she did tell me she has set a 'date' to take her life (two years I think?). Yet she absolutely refuses to go to a mental health clinic to be on suicide watch, and stopped making threats as soon as we told her we would call the clinic. If she is so suicidal that she will set a date, why wouldn't she want to go to a clinic?

[C.Stein]

She suggested telling her that with an upcoming criminal case, I need to set more professional boundaries and to defriend her on facebook, etc (this is a big part of the problem - we were friendly before i knew about the assault so she considers me an advocate/friend). I thought that was a brilliant idea.

I concur and would go so far as to suggest you keep the relationship strictly professional, especially in this case.  This will allow you to maintain an objective distance without emotional entanglement.    

[once removed]

hi FeelingBitter, i wanted to join Turkish and say

youve received great advice so far, and it sounds like you have a solid plan. be warned though, that there may be consequences for setting these boundaries. they may be experienced as abandonment. her behavior may escalate, and/or you may be painted black. boundaries are crucial in any form of relationship with someone with BPD (the name of the game as your counselor said), but conversely, people with this disorder have a tendency to try and bust them. you might want to ease into these boundaries. the good news is, escalation on her end may eventually die down as you stick to your guns.

[FeelingBitter]

Ok, so that was what I was worried about!   That if I set boundaries, this would spark her rage.

So here is my plan for now. She is studying abroad for the summer, which I'm hoping will give her some distance from all this drama, help to see the world in more gray, increase her empathy, etc. She messaged me on FB the other night. I'm thinking for now, I will ignore the FB messages but will reply to her emails.  That way, it won't be so drastic when she and her friend come back and I explain to them that I think it would be best if we defriend each other on FB for the sake of their court cases.

Thoughts? Thank you so much for your support!

hi FeelingBitter, i wanted to join Turkish and say

youve received great advice so far, and it sounds like you have a solid plan. be warned though, that there may be consequences for setting these boundaries. they may be experienced as abandonment. her behavior may escalate, and/or you may be painted black. boundaries are crucial in any form of relationship with someone with BPD (the name of the game as your counselor said), but conversely, people with this disorder have a tendency to try and bust them. you might want to ease into these boundaries. the good news is, escalation on her end may eventually die down as you stick to your guns.

[Fr4nz]

Ok, so that was what I was worried about!   That if I set boundaries, this would spark her rage.

So here is my plan for now. She is studying abroad for the summer, which I'm hoping will give her some distance from all this drama, help to see the world in more gray, increase her empathy, etc. She messaged me on FB the other night. I'm thinking for now, I will ignore the FB messages but will reply to her emails.  That way, it won't be so drastic when she and her friend come back and I explain to them that I think it would be best if we defriend each other on FB for the sake of their court cases.

Thoughts? Thank you so much for your support!

hi FeelingBitter, i wanted to join Turkish and say

youve received great advice so far, and it sounds like you have a solid plan. be warned though, that there may be consequences for setting these boundaries. they may be experienced as abandonment. her behavior may escalate, and/or you may be painted black. boundaries are crucial in any form of relationship with someone with BPD (the name of the game as your counselor said), but conversely, people with this disorder have a tendency to try and bust them. you might want to ease into these boundaries. the good news is, escalation on her end may eventually die down as you stick to your guns.

Another possible strategy is to behave like a "gray rock", whenever NC is not really possible:

Now, the link above isn't, probably, the most reliable source, given its harsh style, but it nonetheless gives a pretty good idea about the method and its goals. I'll quote here the most salient part:

Gray Rock is primarily a way of encouraging a psychopath, a stalker or other emotionally unbalanced person, to lose interest in you. It differs from No Contact in that you don’t overtly try to avoid contact with these emotional vampires. Instead, you allow contact but only give boring, monotonous responses so that the parasite must go elsewhere for his supply of drama. When contact with you is consistently unsatisfying for the psychopath, his mind is re-trained to expect boredom rather than drama. Psychopaths are addicted to drama and they can’t stand to be bored. With time, he will find a new person to provide drama and he will find himself drawn to you less and less often. Eventually, they just slither away to greener pastures. Gray Rock is a way of training the psychopath to view you as an unsatisfying pursuit — you bore him and he can’t stand boredom.

Now, the problem with this tactic is that you don't have to provide ANY kind of feedback (either positive or negative) when you are subject to some kind of stimulus... .which we know it can be pretty hard, in case you have to manage a r/s with a borderline. Anyway, it's quite a powerful alternative, if you want to avoid NC. It just takes patience, focus and emotional strenght.

[sweet tooth]

My dad is in the mental health field. I've asked him how he copes when he has a patient that is toxic and he knows he can't help them. His response was, "I remind myself I get paid money to do this." In other words, he is being compensated for putting up with the BS. I assume that you are being appropriately compensated.

Keep in mind the rest of us here have been abused, our hearts are broken, we're physically and mentally ill, and all we have to show for it is our scars.

[FeelingBitter]

Nope. Not compensated. All of the work I do for survivors is strictly volunteer. She is not a family member. She is not a partner. There is no reason for me to feel obligated to help her except that I have THAT big of a heart, .

That's probably why I feel so gross about everything. I have gone above and beyond for her, and I don't have to, you know?

I'm sorry about all that you and everyone else on this board has been through

My dad is in the mental health field. I've asked him how he copes when he has a patient that is toxic and he knows he can't help them. His response was, "I remind myself I get paid money to do this." In other words, he is being compensated for putting up with the BS. I assume that you are being appropriately compensated.

Keep in mind the rest of us here have been abused, our hearts are broken, we're physically and mentally ill, and all we have to show for it is our scars.

[once removed]

FeelingBitter,

its important to have realistic expectations here. the roots of BPD begin very early in life - around 1-3 years old. a trip for the summer will not teach her to see in greys, or to develop her empathy skills, or otherwise cure BPD. years of therapy might.

as for the specific boundaries, and how to apply them, i think youll get better input on the Improving board. you can find it here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=6.0

but before you do that id like to pose a question:

There is no reason for me to feel obligated to help her except that I have THAT big of a heart, .

That's probably why I feel so gross about everything. I have gone above and beyond for her, and I don't have to, you know?

the question is what are you getting out of this relationship? im not implying you have the hots for her. many in the mental health field have that big heart youre describing. if there is no reason for you to feel obligated to help her, why do you? whats the emotional attachment?

ps. yes BPD can be comorbid with other personality disorders.

[FeelingBitter]

Wow. The 'Grey Rock' method is fantastic! This line: "When contact with you is consistently unsatisfying for the psychopath, his mind is re-trained to expect boredom rather than drama. Psychopaths are addicted to drama and they can’t stand to be bored. With time, he will find a new person to provide drama and he will find himself drawn to you less and less often."

I'm going to try this. When she emails me from now on about her case I will reply in short, clinical answers. If anything, this whole experience will teach me how to set better boundaries, practice self care, etc. It will make me a better advocate in the long run!

Also, is there crossover between borderlines and psychopaths? I've always thought this survivor had sociopathic qualities... .

Ok, so that was what I was worried about!   That if I set boundaries, this would spark her rage.

So here is my plan for now. She is studying abroad for the summer, which I'm hoping will give her some distance from all this drama, help to see the world in more gray, increase her empathy, etc. She messaged me on FB the other night. I'm thinking for now, I will ignore the FB messages but will reply to her emails.  That way, it won't be so drastic when she and her friend come back and I explain to them that I think it would be best if we defriend each other on FB for the sake of their court cases.

Thoughts? Thank you so much for your support!

hi FeelingBitter, i wanted to join Turkish and say

youve received great advice so far, and it sounds like you have a solid plan. be warned though, that there may be consequences for setting these boundaries. they may be experienced as abandonment. her behavior may escalate, and/or you may be painted black. boundaries are crucial in any form of relationship with someone with BPD (the name of the game as your counselor said), but conversely, people with this disorder have a tendency to try and bust them. you might want to ease into these boundaries. the good news is, escalation on her end may eventually die down as you stick to your guns.

Another possible strategy is to behave like a "gray rock", whenever NC is not really possible:

www.lovefraud.com/2012/02/10/the-gray-rock-method-of-dealing-with-psychopaths/

Now, the link above isn't, probably, the most reliable source, given its harsh style, but it nonetheless gives a pretty good idea about the method and its goals. I'll quote here the most salient part:

Gray Rock is primarily a way of encouraging a psychopath, a stalker or other emotionally unbalanced person, to lose interest in you. It differs from No Contact in that you don’t overtly try to avoid contact with these emotional vampires. Instead, you allow contact but only give boring, monotonous responses so that the parasite must go elsewhere for his supply of drama. When contact with you is consistently unsatisfying for the psychopath, his mind is re-trained to expect boredom rather than drama. Psychopaths are addicted to drama and they can’t stand to be bored. With time, he will find a new person to provide drama and he will find himself drawn to you less and less often. Eventually, they just slither away to greener pastures. Gray Rock is a way of training the psychopath to view you as an unsatisfying pursuit — you bore him and he can’t stand boredom.

Now, the problem with this tactic is that you don't have to provide ANY kind of feedback (either positive or negative) when you are subject to some kind of stimulus... .which we know it can be pretty hard, in case you have to manage a r/s with a borderline. Anyway, it's quite a powerful alternative, if you want to avoid NC. It just takes patience, focus and emotional strenght.

[sweet tooth]

From what I understand BPD most commonly overlaps with Avoidant PD, Narcissistic PD, and Anti-Social PD, but I'm not expert.

[sweet tooth]

And I'm sorry that you aren't compensated. These relationships, as I'm sure you've experienced, are draining. I've felt a plethora of emotions relating to my ex: glee, euphoria, peace, sadness, anger, anxiety, depression, embarassment, frustration, lust, love (what I'm accustomed to as love, that is), trust, distrust, jealousy, exhaustion... .all of these emotions take a toll on your physical and mental health. They're called "emotional vampires" for a reason.

[FeelingBitter]

The reason why I am helping her is complicated. First, I was specifically brought in to this case because I have the policy expertise to help her file a larger complaint about how her case was treated, and thus don't feel right about backing out of that now since I made a promise in the beginning to help. Second, I genuinely feel sorry for her. Third, I am working personally with her friend, also a rape survivor, who disclosed to me and who now is starting a criminal case and is thinking of a lawsuit against those who also botched her case. She hasn't told her mother because her mother blamed her when she disclosed she had been abused as a child.  If I ditch Anne then I'm going to have to ditch her friend, because not doing so will I'm sure provoke Anne's jealousy and rage. There is no way I can morally walk away from her friend, who I have already committed to helping.

Really what it comes down to is, I was brought into a case because I have a background in policy and advocacy, but was not informed of the personality disorder by the crisis counselor. And I just didn't have the mental health background to understand this disorder and why it's important to set boundaries. I think I am saavy enough to handle this situation and help these survivors hold these institutions responsible for botching both of these cases. I just need to use this summer to reflect on what I learned and how to set better boundaries so I can be a better advocate.

I think not replying, and then defriending on facebook, is a good start. I also plan to tell Anne that while I am more than happy to help her with the complaint, I am going to let the crisis center work with her on her criminal case. No more meetings with detectives/judges/courts, etc.

And by the way... .I'm moving in the fall anyway. So really, setting boundaries is going to be much easier when I am physically not so close anyway.

FeelingBitter,

its important to have realistic expectations here. the roots of BPD begin very early in life - around 1-3 years old. a trip for the summer will not teach her to see in greys, or to develop her empathy skills, or otherwise cure BPD. years of therapy might.

as for the specific boundaries, and how to apply them, i think youll get better input on the Improving board. you can find it here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=6.0

but before you do that id like to pose a question:

There is no reason for me to feel obligated to help her except that I have THAT big of a heart, .

That's probably why I feel so gross about everything. I have gone above and beyond for her, and I don't have to, you know?

the question is what are you getting out of this relationship? im not implying you have the hots for her. many in the mental health field have that big heart youre describing. if there is no reason for you to feel obligated to help her, why do you? whats the emotional attachment?

ps. yes BPD can be comorbid with other personality disorders.

[FeelingBitter]

Thanks for the reminder about realistic expectations. It reminds me of that saying... .you can't control other people's behavior. You can, however, control your response to it!

FeelingBitter,

its important to have realistic expectations here. the roots of BPD begin very early in life - around 1-3 years old. a trip for the summer will not teach her to see in greys, or to develop her empathy skills, or otherwise cure BPD. years of therapy might.

as for the specific boundaries, and how to apply them, i think youll get better input on the Improving board. you can find it here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=6.0

but before you do that id like to pose a question:

There is no reason for me to feel obligated to help her except that I have THAT big of a heart, .

That's probably why I feel so gross about everything. I have gone above and beyond for her, and I don't have to, you know?

the question is what are you getting out of this relationship? im not implying you have the hots for her. many in the mental health field have that big heart youre describing. if there is no reason for you to feel obligated to help her, why do you? whats the emotional attachment?

ps. yes BPD can be comorbid with other personality disorders.

[FeelingBitter]

"Emotional vampires." Wow. That is SO ACCURATE!

And I'm sorry that you aren't compensated. These relationships, as I'm sure you've experienced, are draining. I've felt a plethora of emotions relating to my ex: glee, euphoria, peace, sadness, anger, anxiety, depression, embarassment, frustration, lust, love (what I'm accustomed to as love, that is), trust, distrust, jealousy, exhaustion... .all of these emotions take a toll on your physical and mental health. They're called "emotional vampires" for a reason.

[once removed]

when i learned about BPD, i used that line myself. im not sure its a healthy way of painting a group of millions (17 million in the US alone) of people. the thing about vampires is that they have to be invited in.

sometimes people fall into an overwhelming situation they dont want to be in (been there). its like you said, FeelingBitter, you cant control other people's behavior, but you can control your response, and you can definitely learn from all of this. i think you have a good plan in place  

[FeelingBitter]

Thanks It may not have seemed like it from my first post (I was very frustrated, today I'm post-counseling vent  ) but I'm a very optimistic, half-glass full kinda person. I really do want to take something from all of this. If I learn to create better boundaries, to not be guilted into responding to someone, to learn how to practice self-care, that will make me a better advocate, and stronger person, in the long run. That's a good thing, right?

when i learned about BPD, i used that line myself. im not sure its a healthy way of painting a group of millions (17 million in the US alone) of people. the thing about vampires is that they have to be invited in.

sometimes people fall into an overwhelming situation they dont want to be in (been there). its like you said, FeelingBitter, you cant control other people's behavior, but you can control your response, and you can definitely learn from all of this. i think you have a good plan in place  

[FeelingBitter]

I just wonder if she will ever down the road look back and be grateful for all the work I've done, or if she's so manipulative and selfish that won't even registering for her, you know?

[Turkish]

I just wonder if she will ever down the road look back and be grateful for all the work I've done, or if she's so manipulative and selfish that won't even registering for her, you know?

Probably not given how low functioning you describe her. This is one of my favorite discussions here, from:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=60935.0;all

Here are some characteristics of emotional immaturity from When the man in your life can't commit by David Hawkins:

1. Volatile Emotions Emotional volatility is indicated by such things as explosive behavior, temper tantrums, low frustration tolerance, responses out of proportion to cause, oversensitivity, inability to take criticism, unreasonable jealousy, unwillingness to forgive, and a capricious fluctuation of moods.

2. Over-Dependence Healthy human development proceeds from dependence (I need you), to independence (I don’t need anyone), to interdependence (we need each other — see also the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey).

Over-dependence is indicated by: a) inappropriate dependence, e.g. relying on someone when it is preferable to be self-reliant, and b) too great a degree of dependence for too long. This includes being too easily influenced, indecisive, and prone to snap judgments. Overly-dependent people fear change preferring accustomed situations and behavior to the uncertainty of change and the challenge of adjustment. Extreme conservatism may even be a symptom.

3. Stimulation Hunger This includes demanding immediate attention or gratification and being unable to wait for anything. Stimulation hungry people are incapable of deferred gratification, which means to put off present desires in order to gain a future reward. Stimulation hungry people are superficial and live thoughtlessly and impulsively. Their personal loyalty lasts only as long as the usefulness of the relationship. They have superficial values and are too concerned with trivia (their appearance, etc.). Their social and financial lives are chaotic.

4. Egocentricity Egocentricity is self-centeredness. It’s major manifestation is selfishness. It is associated with low self-esteem. Self-centered people have no regard for others, but they also have only slight regard for themselves. An egocentric person is preoccupied with his own feelings and symptoms. He demands constant attention and insists on self-gratifying sympathy, fishes for compliments, and makes unreasonable demands. He is typically overly-competitive, a poor loser, perfectionistic, and refuses to play or work if he can’t have his own way.

A self-centered person does not see himself realistically, does not take responsibility for his own mistakes or deficiencies, is unable to constructively criticize himself, and is insensitive to the feelings of others. Only emotionally mature people can experience true empathy, and empathy is a prime requirement for successful relationships.

[FeelingBitter]

That's what is so weird though. I do think she has severe BPD, but she's not unsuccessful. She's involved in a lot of groups on campus. She's a very good student. She's a major and double minor. That is what is so befudding about this to me. It's why I think she lies on the sociopathic spectrum, because I don't think someone who is full-on borderline would be able to do as well as she does and mask her illness around certain people like she does.

It seems, that she has an ability to turn the drama on and off... .maybe? I do remember asking another student who was in a club with her what he thought of her, and he replied, "oh, we all thought she was really crazy." So maybe her illness seeps over into other aspects of her life in ways I don't see.

That link you sent me is perfect. This especially:

"A self-centered person does not see himself realistically, does not take responsibility for his own mistakes or deficiencies, is unable to constructively criticize himself, and is insensitive to the feelings of others. Only emotionally mature people can experience true empathy, and empathy is a prime requirement for successful relationships."

I just wonder if she will ever down the road look back and be grateful for all the work I've done, or if she's so manipulative and selfish that won't even registering for her, you know?

Probably not given how low functioning you describe her. This is one of my favorite discussions here, from:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=60935.0;all

Here are some characteristics of emotional immaturity from When the man in your life can't commit by David Hawkins:

1. Volatile Emotions Emotional volatility is indicated by such things as explosive behavior, temper tantrums, low frustration tolerance, responses out of proportion to cause, oversensitivity, inability to take criticism, unreasonable jealousy, unwillingness to forgive, and a capricious fluctuation of moods.

2. Over-Dependence Healthy human development proceeds from dependence (I need you), to independence (I don’t need anyone), to interdependence (we need each other — see also the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey).

Over-dependence is indicated by: a) inappropriate dependence, e.g. relying on someone when it is preferable to be self-reliant, and b) too great a degree of dependence for too long. This includes being too easily influenced, indecisive, and prone to snap judgments. Overly-dependent people fear change preferring accustomed situations and behavior to the uncertainty of change and the challenge of adjustment. Extreme conservatism may even be a symptom.

3. Stimulation Hunger This includes demanding immediate attention or gratification and being unable to wait for anything. Stimulation hungry people are incapable of deferred gratification, which means to put off present desires in order to gain a future reward. Stimulation hungry people are superficial and live thoughtlessly and impulsively. Their personal loyalty lasts only as long as the usefulness of the relationship. They have superficial values and are too concerned with trivia (their appearance, etc.). Their social and financial lives are chaotic.

4. Egocentricity Egocentricity is self-centeredness. It’s major manifestation is selfishness. It is associated with low self-esteem. Self-centered people have no regard for others, but they also have only slight regard for themselves. An egocentric person is preoccupied with his own feelings and symptoms. He demands constant attention and insists on self-gratifying sympathy, fishes for compliments, and makes unreasonable demands. He is typically overly-competitive, a poor loser, perfectionistic, and refuses to play or work if he can’t have his own way.

A self-centered person does not see himself realistically, does not take responsibility for his own mistakes or deficiencies, is unable to constructively criticize himself, and is insensitive to the feelings of others. Only emotionally mature people can experience true empathy, and empathy is a prime requirement for successful relationships.

[once removed]

BPD is often referred to as an "invisible disorder". thats over generalizing, especially since it varies with each person, but there is some truth to it in that most never see it unless they are close, or unless the level of dysfunction is simply that extreme. people with BPD have finely honed (though maladaptive) survival skills. levels of functioning may vary as well. many thrive professionally, or socially, but are no less disordered.

[FeelingBitter]

Based on the quote that's above, I really do think she's borderline and has narcissism disorder. Yes, she likely has abandonment fears. But anytime she gets the sense she is 'not special' or the center of attention, she freaks out. Like she did when I told her I gave the same book to her friend.

BPD is often referred to as an "invisible disorder". thats over generalizing, especially since it varies with each person, but there is some truth to it in that most never see it unless they are close, or unless the level of dysfunction is simply that extreme. people with BPD have finely honed (though maladaptive) survival skills. levels of functioning may vary as well. many thrive professionally, or socially, but are no less disordered.

[WoundedBibi]

I just wonder if she will ever down the road look back and be grateful for all the work I've done, or if she's so manipulative and selfish that won't even registering for her, you know?

As others pointed out pwBPD (or NPD) can hide their illness well especially from people further away from them or people that do not pay close attention and/or are caught up in the charisma of the pwBPD. Also intelligence has nothing to do with it. My ex is highly intelligent but still majorly disordered. And hides it well...

More importantly IMO why do you find it important that she shows gratitude for what you have done for her?

[FeelingBitter]

I just wonder if she will ever down the road look back and be grateful for all the work I've done, or if she's so manipulative and selfish that won't even registering for her, you know?

More importantly IMO why do you find it important that she shows gratitude for what you have done for her?

That's a good question. For the record I've worked with tons of survivors and in no way do I expect any survivor to thank me profusely or anything like that. Most don't tbh. But it's one thing to not show appreciation and another to actually actively hurt and manipulate the very person who's trying to help you.

I'm just a very polite, nice kind of person, so maybe I'm taking this kinda personally. I know I shouldn't. I think this summer will be helpful cause it will give me some space, and then when she and her friend come back I can make sure that I do set very strict boundaries.

[WoundedBibi]

I just wonder if she will ever down the road look back and be grateful for all the work I've done, or if she's so manipulative and selfish that won't even registering for her, you know?

More importantly IMO why do you find it important that she shows gratitude for what you have done for her?

That's a good question. For the record I've worked with tons of survivors and in no way do I expect any survivor to thank me profusely or anything like that. Most don't tbh. But it's one thing to not show appreciation and another to actually actively hurt and manipulate the very person who's trying to help you.

I'm just a very polite, nice kind of person, so maybe I'm taking this kinda personally. I know I shouldn't. I think this summer will be helpful cause it will give me some space, and then when she and her friend come back I can make sure that I do set very strict boundaries.

I think you are taking this too personal. The active hurting and manipulating comes with the PD. Whether it is an integral part of BPD or an NPD trait of some pwBPD is a discussion we have had on this board many a time. In the end for you that does not matter.

What matters is knowing people like this exist, and that how they behave has nothing to do with you. They were disordered before you met them and you cannot control or fix the disorder in any way. Learn how to remain at a professional distance and set boundaries. You will meet more people like this. Anyone in the mental health profession does and if they would feel hurt every time a client tried to hurt them with words or manipulate them no therapist would last longer than one week.

[FeelingBitter]

Thanks so much. I understand that. This is the first time working with a survivor I've encountered a personality disorder, and one so severe at that. Usually survivors are dealing with trauma. However, as a friend told me, sexual abuse and personality disorders often go hand in hand, and people who suffer from personality disorders are more likely to be victimized. So this is a good learning experience for me.

On another note, is there any hope for the BPD sufferer? Can they learn to be less narcissistic, less selfish?

I just wonder if she will ever down the road look back and be grateful for all the work I've done, or if she's so manipulative and selfish that won't even registering for her, you know?

More importantly IMO why do you find it important that she shows gratitude for what you have done for her?

That's a good question. For the record I've worked with tons of survivors and in no way do I expect any survivor to thank me profusely or anything like that. Most don't tbh. But it's one thing to not show appreciation and another to actually actively hurt and manipulate the very person who's trying to help you.

I'm just a very polite, nice kind of person, so maybe I'm taking this kinda personally. I know I shouldn't. I think this summer will be helpful cause it will give me some space, and then when she and her friend come back I can make sure that I do set very strict boundaries.

I think you are taking this too personal. The active hurting and manipulating comes with the PD. Whether it is an integral part of BPD or an NPD trait of some pwBPD is a discussion we have had on this board many a time. In the end for you that does not matter.

What matters is knowing people like this exist, and that how they behave has nothing to do with you. They were disordered before you met them and you cannot control or fix the disorder in any way. Learn how to remain at a professional distance and set boundaries. You will meet more people like this. Anyone in the mental health profession does and if they would feel hurt every time a client tried to hurt them with words or manipulate them no therapist would last longer than one week.

[WoundedBibi]

Thanks so much. I understand that. This is the first time working with a survivor I've encountered a personality disorder, and one so severe at that. Usually survivors are dealing with trauma. However, as a friend told me, sexual abuse and personality disorders often go hand in hand, and people who suffer from personality disorders are more likely to be victimized. So this is a good learning experience for me.

On another note, is there any hope for the BPD sufferer? Can they learn to be less narcissistic, less selfish?

I just wonder if she will ever down the road look back and be grateful for all the work I've done, or if she's so manipulative and selfish that won't even registering for her, you know?

More importantly IMO why do you find it important that she shows gratitude for what you have done for her?

That's a good question. For the record I've worked with tons of survivors and in no way do I expect any survivor to thank me profusely or anything like that. Most don't tbh. But it's one thing to not show appreciation and another to actually actively hurt and manipulate the very person who's trying to help you.

I'm just a very polite, nice kind of person, so maybe I'm taking this kinda personally. I know I shouldn't. I think this summer will be helpful cause it will give me some space, and then when she and her friend come back I can make sure that I do set very strict boundaries.

I think you are taking this too personal. The active hurting and manipulating comes with the PD. Whether it is an integral part of BPD or an NPD trait of some pwBPD is a discussion we have had on this board many a time. In the end for you that does not matter.

What matters is knowing people like this exist, and that how they behave has nothing to do with you. They were disordered before you met them and you cannot control or fix the disorder in any way. Learn how to remain at a professional distance and set boundaries. You will meet more people like this. Anyone in the mental health profession does and if they would feel hurt every time a client tried to hurt them with words or manipulate them no therapist would last longer than one week.

Your friend is right. Sexual abuse and PDs often go hand in hand. Either because the pw a PD developed the PD as a consequence of sexual abuse, or because the pw a PD uses sex as a means to sedate their pain or manipulate others, or because the pw a PD uses alcohol or drugs or dangerous situations to sedate their pain and is abused while intoxicated, or a combination of all of the above.

After everything I have learned I would say no, there is no hope. BPD cannot be cured. It is not a healthy person with an unhealthy part attached that you can cut off. Their personality is disordered. You cannot have a personality transplant. It is everywhere. I like to compare it to a piece of really well marbled meat. You cannot cut all the fat away from the meat, it's all over. And if you could you would be left with pieces of personality that still do not form a whole personality. Pieces of personality are missing with pwBPD and they have filled in the blanks with coping strategies. Your personality is formed in the first 3 years of your life. After that the window of opportunity to form or change the personality has passed.

At best pwBPD can learn how to manage some of their BPD behaviour (often the worst parts are left as those are worst for a reason) after years and years of therapy. That doesn't happen often. PwBPD tend to act on what they feel. If they feel they don't want or need therapy (because of course it is heavy and difficult and makes you feel like crap a lot) they walk away from it. They often also at first idealize their therapist and then devalue them when the therapist asks difficult questions or has 'abandoned' them by going on a holiday. You're not going to stay in therapy once you have decided the therapist is a major a-hole.

So no cure, just management, and only after years and years of therapy most aren't able to stick with for years and years.