Just got through months of hell with a BPD survivor...

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

On another note, is there any hope for the BPD sufferer? Can they learn to be less narcissistic, less selfish?

yes, if they choose to do so.

heres a case study that gets me every time: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=120563

[once removed]

On another note, is there any hope for the BPD sufferer? Can they learn to be less narcissistic, less selfish?

yes, if they choose to do so.

heres a case study that gets me every time: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=120563

[Fr4nz]

On another note, is there any hope for the BPD sufferer? Can they learn to be less narcissistic, less selfish?

yes, if they choose to do so.

heres a case study that gets me every time: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=120563

Note that the sufferer is 13 years old, so very young... .I guess that, at that age, the brain is enough "plastic" to allow the "reprogramming" of dysfunctional thouhts/behaviours quite more easily than in older people.

[Turkish]

On another note, is there any hope for the BPD sufferer? Can they learn to be less narcissistic, less selfish?

yes, if they choose to do so.

heres a case study that gets me every time: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=120563

Note that the sufferer is 13 years old, so very young... .I guess that, at that age, the brain is enough "plastic" to allow the "reprogramming" of dysfunctional thouhts/behaviours quite more easily than in older people.

And yet, Marsha Linehan... .

[FeelingBitter]

The survivor I'm working with is 19 years old, and she's been in therapy for a year. Her therapist has not officially diagnosed her with borderline, she's been working with her on the trauma aspect though. However, it seems she's been giving her a lot of dialectical behavior coping tools, and the fact that the client told me "I've always known something was wrong with me" indicates to me that she is at least starting to realize there are other things going on with her besides just the trauma from her assault.

I hope she will continue with the counseling. She actually did leave it a few months ago cause she felt she needed a break, but started it up again. 

Once she was ranting about her parents and everyone in her life and how no one gives her any support. I told her that she should notice when she thinks in 'black or white' and to catch herself in negative thinking. She said she's "always thought like this" and I was like "you're still young. If you don't start working on it now, it's just going to get worse and worse."

On another note, is there any hope for the BPD sufferer? Can they learn to be less narcissistic, less selfish?

yes, if they choose to do so.

heres a case study that gets me every time: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=120563

Note that the sufferer is 13 years old, so very young... .I guess that, at that age, the brain is enough "plastic" to allow the "reprogramming" of dysfunctional thouhts/behaviours quite more easily than in older people.

[once removed]

thats good advice, and i hope it sticks with her. the problem is when she says shes "always thought like this" that means its all she knows. the concept of catching herself in black and white thinking is a foreign language she does not have the foundation, skills or tools to do. this is where DBT (developed by marsha linehan) comes in.

more about marsha linehan, and hope: www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[FeelingBitter]

That Marsha Linehan story is amazing. It almost makes me wonder though if she really has it? I mean, to get to where she's at takes an extraordinary amount of self-reflectiveness, which according to my anecdotal experiences with this one young woman and my research, BPD people really lack.

thats good advice, and i hope it sticks with her. the problem is when she says shes "always thought like this" that means its all she knows. the concept of catching herself in black and white thinking is a foreign language she does not have the foundation, skills or tools to do. this is where DBT (developed by marsha linehan) comes in.

more about marsha linehan, and hope: www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[FeelingBitter]

I have a question for people on this board actually... .

Something I've noticed her doing is taking other people's traumas and utilizing them to amp up her own trauma and situation. For example... .her friend went to a mental health clinic when she was in high school, and had a terrible experience. The girl I'm working with then told me and the crisis center she also "wanted to go to the hospital" which was a clear suicide threat. when we told her we would commit her, she stopped. Then, a friend of mine killed herself after 'setting a date' for her death, and then guess what? This survivor announced to me and the crisis center she had also set a date (two years from now).

What is the root of all this? Trauma? A cry for help? (borderline) Or narcissism (ie, no one's traumas are as bad as mine). It's almost like she's competing with other people, or maybe she's just desperate for attention. It's all really disturbing.

[Turkish]

There is a vicimhood mentality with many pwBPD (and little accountability for their actions). In therapy, it's stated, "you're not responsible for your illness, but you are responsible for your actions."

Does anything here help?

TOOLS: Dealing with threats of Suicide and Suicide Attempts

[FeelingBitter]

There is a vicimhood mentality with many pwBPD (and little accountability for their actions). In therapy, it's stated, "you're not responsible for your illness, but you are responsible for your actions."

Does anything here help?

TOOLS: Dealing with threats of Suicide and Suicide Attempts

That's a good thread, but I don't think it takes into account the manipulation aspect of the suicide threats... .

Like I think she tells people she is suicidal but doesn't want to go to the hospital 'now' because she doesn't really want to kill herself, she just wants sympathy for her real pain.

But it's more than that. She reported to the institution (work place/military/university-keeping it ambigious) that she was assaulted, and then when she didn't get the outcome she wanted, she went to the hospital that night and was diagnosed with anxiety because she didn't wnat to be committed. Then she later claimed 'suicidal ideations'. The next day she went to the woman who decided her case and gave her the hospital diagnosis, asking her to add it to her file and reconsider her case.

The threats of suicide really just seemed like a manipulative attempt to help her case, more than anything. (ie, look what you've done to me, etc etc)

And it kinda pisses me off, because survivors do suffer a lot of trauma, and it's manipulative behavior like this that makes people not believe survivors!

[Fie]

Hello Feelingbitter,

I think you should be proud of yourself for having tried so hard to help this person ; congratulations !

A friend of mine is a psychologist/family therapist. She works with people with BPD quite often. Once I asked her : what do you do if your client does not want to work along with you ?

Her answer was quite simple : ‘I love my job. If someone keeps stepping over my boundaries, I tell him/her that my limits have been reached, and he should look for a more ‘capable’ therapist, someone who can deal better with the problems he or she is having.’ I think she’s wonderfully right. It’s all about setting limits.

Do you think this could be an option for you ?

[FeelingBitter]

Hello Feelingbitter,

I think you should be proud of yourself for having tried so hard to help this person ; congratulations !

A friend of mine is a psychologist/family therapist. She works with people with BPD quite often. Once I asked her : what do you do if your client does not want to work along with you ?

Her answer was quite simple : ‘I love my job. If someone keeps stepping over my boundaries, I tell him/her that my limits have been reached, and he should look for a more ‘capable’ therapist, someone who can deal better with the problems he or she is having.’ I think she’s wonderfully right. It’s all about setting limits.

Do you think this could be an option for you ?

Yes, it is. I'm already starting the process of setting boundaries. I'm just going to make myself more scarce, limit social media interactions, etc.

I'm thinking the first month she gets back, I'm going to tell her I'm busy/traveling and so that will force her to reach out to other people for help, take initiative to do things on her own, etc.

[Invictus01]

I guess stories like this make you understand why many psychologists don't want anything to do with people who they suspect to be personality disordered. On one hand you think "How selfish and unprofessional of them!" Then you read an account like this and go - "Eh, I am not sure you can blame them"... .

[Fie]

Hello feelingbitter,

Good on you !

For me personally, I think I would set a clear goal for her to work towards to (not offending me, being honest, ... .whatever I would feel I would need to work with her).

I think I would be honest, telling her : look, if you feel you cannot do this and cooperate, I am terminating our working together because I don't think I am capable helping you in that case. And I would give her the contacts of someone who'd want to finish the work I would have been doing.

I would not beat around the bush, making up excuses. In my view, this will only cause more drama and pulling and pushing from her side - which would be bad for you both as for her. I would go for a cold turkey.

But that's only how I see it. I think you are best placed to decide what is best for you.

Good luck with it, and let us know how it goes !

[FeelingBitter]

I guess stories like this make you understand why many psychologists don't want anything to do with people who they suspect to be personality disordered. On one hand you think "How selfish and unprofessional of them!" Then you read an account like this and go - "Eh, I am not sure you can blame them"... .

I know right?

The head of the crisis clinic told me repeatedly that she was constantly in fear of losing her license over this case, especially over the repeated suicide threats and gestures she was making that may have been real on the one hand, but were just as likely, if not more, a manipulative way to make sure she had the counselor's investment AND a way to bolster her case that she had been wronged.

The counselor left the clinic and said that entire case left a bitter taste in her mouth. And she was amaaazing. Everyone loved her and trusted her.

I never thought I would see a day where I felt relieved when a survivor left the country for three months. But that's EXACTLY how I feel. Relieved. And dreading when she returns and me having to set boundaries and the inevitable fall-out from that.

[FeelingBitter]

Hello feelingbitter,

Good on you !

For me personally, I think I would set a clear goal for her to work towards to (not offending me, being honest, ... .whatever I would feel I would need to work with her).

I think I would be honest, telling her : look, if you feel you cannot do this and cooperate, I am terminating our working together because I don't think I am capable helping you in that case. And I would give her the contacts of someone who'd want to finish the work I would have been doing.

I would not beat around the bush, making up excuses. In my view, this will only cause more drama and pulling and pushing from her side - which would be bad for you both as for her. I would go for a cold turkey.

But that's only how I see it. I think you are best placed to decide what is best for you.

Good luck with it, and let us know how it goes !

Thank you so much for this advice. A friend of mine also told me I needed to be brutally blunt and honest with her. He said I could bluntly tell her that we can't have this dual relationship, that it needs to be strictly professional, and then suggested that I give her the list of options I could come up with to address the conflict of interest and let her choose... .but explain the rationale and be like... .we can't have this dual relationship.

I really want to tell her that she crossed a line when she rejected my book and then blew me off for two days. That I am uncomfortable with how she competes with her friend for my attention, and that because of that, I am going to make this relationship strictly professional.

It's hard because I will be working with her friend on her criminal case as well. She will be coming back a month earlier than Anne. I was thinking of sitting her friend down too and not being dramatic about it, but just saying, "we need to keep this professional, and I don't plan on talking about your case with Anne anymore."

What do you think about that?

[Fie]

Hello feelingbitter,

I will tell you what I think I would do,  regarding the information I got. Because of  course I don’t have  a full view of your situation, and also everyone has his or her own way with dealing with things.

First of all, I would tell her I need to make the relationship strictly professional, so I can fully help her. I would not say that I  am doing this because of her behavior, I would say that I  need to do this so I can help her better.

Secondly I would tell her that from now on, there are boundaries and I would explain them. I would  also tell her that if she crosses them, I would refer her to someone who can ‘deal  with her situation/behavior better’. ( I would make sure I have the contacts of that someone already in this stage. Maybe it can be a good idea to check with this someone if he/she would be willing to take her case, so she does not have to  feel rejected when they don’t want to help her).

I would explain shortly which kind of behaviors that are a no-go  for me from now on, but I would also try to make it not  too personal, because than I would be kind of dragging my feelings of friendship into the whole  story, and that’s what I want to avoid from now on. I would try to be as dry/objective possible.

I would not give her options, as your friend suggested – or  maybe he is more aware of the subtleties of the situation of course, that is possible.

In my experience, if you give BPD people too many options (even 2 can be enough), they flip (poor decision making) and  the pushing and pulling risks to start again.

If you decide to terminate your working together, you could write the contacts of a few new people on a piece of paper you give her. These are also options, but not options she has to discuss with you.

But as I said, this is how I see it. Do you think it could be a good idea to discuss this over with the head of the crisis clinic ? 

Good luck ! You can always pm me if you want to keep me posted how it goes.

[FeelingBitter]

Hello feelingbitter,

I will tell you what I think I would do,  regarding the information I got. Because of  course I don’t have  a full view of your situation, and also everyone has his or her own way with dealing with things.

First of all, I would tell her I need to make the relationship strictly professional, so I can fully help her. I would not say that I  am doing this because of her behavior, I would say that I  need to do this so I can help her better.

Secondly I would tell her that from now on, there are boundaries and I would explain them. I would  also tell her that if she crosses them, I would refer her to someone who can ‘deal  with her situation/behavior better’. ( I would make sure I have the contacts of that someone already in this stage. Maybe it can be a good idea to check with this someone if he/she would be willing to take her case, so she does not have to  feel rejected when they don’t want to help her).

I would explain shortly which kind of behaviors that are a no-go  for me from now on, but I would also try to make it not  too personal, because than I would be kind of dragging my feelings of friendship into the whole  story, and that’s what I want to avoid from now on. I would try to be as dry/objective possible.

I would not give her options, as your friend suggested – or  maybe he is more aware of the subtleties of the situation of course, that is possible.

In my experience, if you give BPD people too many options (even 2 can be enough), they flip (poor decision making) and  the pushing and pulling risks to start again.

If you decide to terminate your working together, you could write the contacts of a few new people on a piece of paper you give her. These are also options, but not options she has to discuss with you.

But as I said, this is how I see it. Do you think it could be a good idea to discuss this over with the head of the crisis clinic ? 

Good luck ! You can always pm me if you want to keep me posted how it goes.

"Secondly I would tell her that from now on, there are boundaries and I would explain them. I would  also tell her that if she crosses them, I would refer her to someone who can ‘deal  with her situation/behavior better’."

Thank you so much for your post. Per the quote above, I could definitely refer her to the counselor she is seeing. In fact... .I was thinking when I have a conversation with her, I could even meet with her counselor who can act as a third party per se. That might be a good idea because it would provide a 'witness' to our contract, so she would feel more bound by it. Second, if she freaks out/threatens suicide, then there will be a counselor there who can emotionally support her. Good idea?

And thanks so much for the support here everyone! I will def PM you as the case develops, thank you!

[C.Stein]

"Secondly I would tell her that from now on, there are boundaries and I would explain them. I would  also tell her that if she crosses them, I would refer her to someone who can ‘deal  with her situation/behavior better’."

Thank you so much for your post. Per the quote above, I could definitely refer her to the counselor she is seeing. In fact... .I was thinking when I have a conversation with her, I could even meet with her counselor who can act as a third party per se. That might be a good idea because it would provide a 'witness' to our contract, so she would feel more bound by it. Second, if she freaks out/threatens suicide, then there will be a counselor there who can emotionally support her. Good idea?

And thanks so much for the support here everyone! I will def PM you as the case develops, thank you!

This gives me the impression that you are participating as a friend and not in a professional capacity.  I think the best course of action here is to take friendship off the table completely and maybe even start looking for a way to remove yourself professionally as well.

[FeelingBitter]

"Secondly I would tell her that from now on, there are boundaries and I would explain them. I would  also tell her that if she crosses them, I would refer her to someone who can ‘deal  with her situation/behavior better’."

Thank you so much for your post. Per the quote above, I could definitely refer her to the counselor she is seeing. In fact... .I was thinking when I have a conversation with her, I could even meet with her counselor who can act as a third party per se. That might be a good idea because it would provide a 'witness' to our contract, so she would feel more bound by it. Second, if she freaks out/threatens suicide, then there will be a counselor there who can emotionally support her. Good idea?

And thanks so much for the support here everyone! I will def PM you as the case develops, thank you!

This gives me the impression that you are participating as a friend and not in a professional capacity.  I think the best course of action here is to take friendship off the table completely and maybe even start looking for a way to remove yourself professionally as well.

Well in a way, yes. I am not a mental health provider. I do not officially work with the crisis center. I knew her before I was called in to help. I was called in to help cause I'm a community organizer and I do a lot of research on sexual assault, and have worked with a lot of survivors. Her case was mishandled. I wasn't called in to help support her emotionally. I was never told about her mental illness until I was a month in and she started making suicide threats.

I definitely want to take friendship off the table, and I plan on easing out of this professionally as well. I will no longer go with her to anything that involves her criminal case. But I'm ok being there to answer the occasional question.

I'm moving in the fall, and will be traveling quite a bit, so I think creating physical distance will help me create psychological distance as well.

[FeelingBitter]

All - I need help. Anne and her friend are in China together. Anne's friend just texted me saying that Anne has been going on to roofs and ledges and told her she kind of wants to jump off or imagines doing it, and this weekend she's going to climb one of the world's deadliest mountains when Anne's friend away in Hong Kong this weekend.

What should I tell Anne's friend? I wonder if this is something Anne is just doing to guilt her friend for leaving her over the weekend. But if she is serious that is scary.

How am I STILL dealing with her drama when she's in the other side of the world?

[JQ]

HI Feeling better,

You've received some awesome guidance here & the input of a couple of site moderators.  You mentioned, "I have a huge heart" and you give and you give.  I would echo what everyone here has said ... .but I would add, "The 51% Rule".  Regardless of how big your heart is, how much you want to help, assist, others you need to keep 51% of your heart, energy, mind & soul for yourself.  AND then you can give 49% of  your time, heart, soul, mind to "Anne" or a combination of others on any given day. If you go beyond the 49%, you run the risk of running yourself in the ground. You run the risk of giving so much of yourself that it will be difficult to recover from. You will notice yourself not sleeping, anxiety increasing, not eating or eating to much, basically you'll notice a decrease of your whole mind & body. You need to stop what you're doing and take a deep breath and start to take care of yourself again. You've got a therapist which is a good start ... .

take care of yourself ... .keep your mind sharpe and keep 51% to yourself

J

[FeelingBitter]

All - I need help. Anne and her friend are in China together. Anne's friend just texted me saying that Anne has been going on to roofs and ledges and told her she kind of wants to jump off or imagines doing it, and this weekend she's going to climb one of the world's deadliest mountains when Anne's friend away in Hong Kong this weekend.

What should I tell Anne's friend? I wonder if this is something Anne is just doing to guilt her friend for leaving her over the weekend. But if she is serious that is scary.

How am I STILL dealing with her drama when she's in the other side of the world?

I just spoke with someone, who suggested I tell the friend she firmly tell Anne that if she threatens or hints at suicide again, she will inform an instructor or the study abroad office. And I will tell Anne's friend that if she informs me Anne keeps on doing this, I will inform the study abroad office!

[john83]

Also, I have a question.

While this girl is not threatening suicide anymore, she did tell me she has set a 'date' to take her life (two years I think?)

why wait so long?

Don't rush to give up the job... .you provide a valuable and much needed service, and if this one client has made you question your abilities, then consider it a veiled gift... .shame the lady at the crisis centre didn't give you a 'heads up' beforehand... .

[john83]

I have a question for people on this board actually... .

Something I've noticed her doing is taking other people's traumas and utilizing them to amp up her own trauma and situation.

What is the root of all this? Trauma? A cry for help? (borderline) Or narcissism... .

One-up-manship... .story-topping... .is a common trait among BPD and NPDs... .attention seeking in it's most basic form. I imagine your client simply absorbs negative scenarios she hasn't considered herself, to use as and when... .rather like the way we remember jokes to tell at a suitable juncture. As for the root cause, who knows?

[FeelingBitter]

HI Feeling better,

You've received some awesome guidance here & the input of a couple of site moderators.  You mentioned, "I have a huge heart" and you give and you give.  I would echo what everyone here has said ... .but I would add, "The 51% Rule".  Regardless of how big your heart is, how much you want to help, assist, others you need to keep 51% of your heart, energy, mind & soul for yourself.  AND then you can give 49% of  your time, heart, soul, mind to "Anne" or a combination of others on any given day. If you go beyond the 49%, you run the risk of running yourself in the ground. You run the risk of giving so much of yourself that it will be difficult to recover from. You will notice yourself not sleeping, anxiety increasing, not eating or eating to much, basically you'll notice a decrease of your whole mind & body. You need to stop what you're doing and take a deep breath and start to take care of yourself again. You've got a therapist which is a good start ... .

take care of yourself ... .keep your mind sharpe and keep 51% to yourself

J

Thank you for the reminder. And you are 100% right. I really planned to take this summer to take a mental health break from advocacy. I am looking forward to it!

[FeelingBitter]

Also, I have a question.

While this girl is not threatening suicide anymore, she did tell me she has set a 'date' to take her life (two years I think?)

why wait so long?

Don't rush to give up the job... .you provide a valuable and much needed service, and if this one client has made you question your abilities, then consider it a veiled gift... .shame the lady at the crisis centre didn't give you a 'heads up' beforehand... .

Omg I just laughed really hard! I'm going to hell 

Even if she did give me a heads up, I prob would have helped her, cause I had no real concept of a personality disorder and at the very least, I can chalk this up as a way to gain more experience in the field.

[FeelingBitter]

Bumping this post... .

All - I need help. Anne and her friend are in China together. Anne's friend just texted me saying that Anne has been going on to roofs and ledges and told her she kind of wants to jump off or imagines doing it, and this weekend she's going to climb one of the world's deadliest mountains when Anne's friend away in Hong Kong this weekend.

I'm advising Anne's friend that if Anne mentions this again, she should tell her that she will go to the study abroad program. And then I will say that if she tells me Anne is continuing to do this, I will call the study abroad program!

How am I STILL dealing with her drama when she's in the other side of the world?

[once removed]

I'm advising Anne's friend that if Anne mentions this again, she should tell her that she will go to the study abroad program. And then I will say that if she tells me Anne is continuing to do this, I will call the study abroad program!

if "Anne" mentions it again, either one of you should not communicate to Anne what you intend to do, but contact first the nearest local suicide helpline (local to you or her), and if directed, to the study abroad program.

[Mutt]

The thread has reached its post limit and is now locked. You're welcome to start a new or similar topic of discussion. Thanks.