Biblical Marriage Counselor backed down on claim he couldn't counsel me

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So, there is some "homework" about the legal case where I was supposed to answer some questions my wife had.  If you remember, she contacted "the other side" and broke spousal privilege.

Well... .there was no way to answer the questions without revealing legal strategy or important information.

So... .I made up a paper that said "Covenants and Understandings" that basically said that if my wife wanted to contact anyone up there, she promises to go through lawyer first and if lawyer says no... .she abides by that.

Well... .you can imagine the flopping around... ."you can't control me"... .to which I calmly said that I respected her and she didn't have to sign.  "But then I don't get to see you homework... ." she wailed.

I agreed with the outcome and said I would respect her choice.  She came back at one point with a vague divorce threat.  I didn't pick up any bait... .and stayed calm and friendly.  Some light validation here and there.

Eventually she said she would sign.  Read the homework... .and really wasn't a big deal.

It was brought up as a big issue in MC and the MC was leaning on me that I was wrong to have made her sign it... .based on her description.  I said that I was happy to agree to disagree... .which sort of set him off... .and he basically said that if I was so wise that I didn't need him.

It seemed to me that he was trying to summarize what I was saying... .but twisting it badly... .and I was steadfast in correcting him.

He grows more frustrated and again said it was my fault that marriage was in this shape because I didn't bring clarity to things.  I said... .I 100% agree... .and my actions today were designed to prevent that from ever happening again (having a signed written record). 

He then realized he was kinda caught and tried to say I did it in an "unbiblical way".

I offered to show him the paper.  He agreed.  He read it... .and apparently realized what my wife described and what she signed were two different things. 

He said he was in agreement with what I had written.  Lots of sighing from my wife.  He pressed her about that and got nothing from her.

He then was reflective and said he had never counseled a couple where things had to be written down, but was willing to try if I wanted to continue. 

I said I was. 

Lots of sighing from wife.

Not sure if he blinked... .or is getting it... .or what.  Obviously... .you guys get my vibe about this guy.

He did back my wife in a corner about several issues and get her agreement.  So... .I guess he is useful.

Very frustrating.

FF

[formflier]

So, there is some "homework" about the legal case where I was supposed to answer some questions my wife had.  If you remember, she contacted "the other side" and broke spousal privilege.

Well... .there was no way to answer the questions without revealing legal strategy or important information.

So... .I made up a paper that said "Covenants and Understandings" that basically said that if my wife wanted to contact anyone up there, she promises to go through lawyer first and if lawyer says no... .she abides by that.

Well... .you can imagine the flopping around... ."you can't control me"... .to which I calmly said that I respected her and she didn't have to sign.  "But then I don't get to see you homework... ." she wailed.

I agreed with the outcome and said I would respect her choice.  She came back at one point with a vague divorce threat.  I didn't pick up any bait... .and stayed calm and friendly.  Some light validation here and there.

Eventually she said she would sign.  Read the homework... .and really wasn't a big deal.

It was brought up as a big issue in MC and the MC was leaning on me that I was wrong to have made her sign it... .based on her description.  I said that I was happy to agree to disagree... .which sort of set him off... .and he basically said that if I was so wise that I didn't need him.

It seemed to me that he was trying to summarize what I was saying... .but twisting it badly... .and I was steadfast in correcting him.

He grows more frustrated and again said it was my fault that marriage was in this shape because I didn't bring clarity to things.  I said... .I 100% agree... .and my actions today were designed to prevent that from ever happening again (having a signed written record). 

He then realized he was kinda caught and tried to say I did it in an "unbiblical way".

I offered to show him the paper.  He agreed.  He read it... .and apparently realized what my wife described and what she signed were two different things. 

He said he was in agreement with what I had written.  Lots of sighing from my wife.  He pressed her about that and got nothing from her.

He then was reflective and said he had never counseled a couple where things had to be written down, but was willing to try if I wanted to continue. 

I said I was. 

Lots of sighing from wife.

Not sure if he blinked... .or is getting it... .or what.  Obviously... .you guys get my vibe about this guy.

He did back my wife in a corner about several issues and get her agreement.  So... .I guess he is useful.

Very frustrating.

FF

[HopefulDad]

Your BMC is in so far over his head and this is just the latest example.  After all these sessions with you both, he still falls for her story before actually reading the paper she signed?  Seriously, a LMFT would have had her pegged after the 3rd or 4th session, if that.

The guy is not equipped to deal with PDs.  Period.

[chump]

Your BMC is in so far over his head and this is just the latest example.  After all these sessions with you both, he still falls for her story before actually reading the paper she signed?  Seriously, a LMFT would have had her pegged after the 3rd or 4th session, if that.

The guy is not equipped to deal with PDs.  Period.

Gotta agree with HopefulDad here FF.  Really glad you have your PhD T, she sounds like she gets it.

Chump

[Verbena]

Does your marriage counselor have any idea that you are married to someone who has a serious mental illness?  You know far more about how to handle your wife than he ever could, and if he had to live with her for one week he'd be running for the hills.  He seems naive, impractical, and not too smart. 

Is there ANY way that your wife would agree to get therapy for her PD on her own, without you?  I still say that until she does that, marriage counseling is not going to change much.  You wouldn't have all these issues in your marriage if not for her mental illness, and she isn't addressing that. 

[Lilyroze]

  FF,

If you're the husband, you're to love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it (Ephesians 5:25). If you're the wife, you're to treat your mate with respect as head of the house (Ephesians 5:22-23; I Peter 3:1).

In other words, your first priority is your spouse's spiritual welfare. It's also important to keep in mind that your choices will affect the spiritual state of your children if you have any (1 Corinthians 7:14)

So my question to you is biblical counselor aside , what is your plan for future? If she doesn’t respect those things, ( the counselling, basic common sense for your court case) you need to plan on your  strategy for this relationship, because you’re never going to make it if she doesn’t respect you, and respect God and respect your relationship with God. How can you be in a relationship with someone that doesn’t respect your faith and your convictions if Christian? You can’t be, unless you are willing to sacrifice that part for you both... So most counselors tell you to be unequally yoked and pray, stay in it if no abuse and be bigger one, or plan exit strategy, or be equally yoked. Only you know what your marriage is. They say  get counsel before you leave her or divorce her. Get some counseling to see if you can get to that place where he can respect your faith and your convictions.   That is what you are doing, but seems like it has become a push and pull, with drama.

So I am not sure how much more the Biblical counselor can do. The verses are there, the biblical instruction is there, the counselor has told. Now what? They might be part of Church, part of counseling, or head of spiritual but they aren't her Dad, and can't make her be truthful or whatever.

That would be biblical point of view. So if you two can't agree with biblical counselor, do you and can you accept that? Can you then just go to other counselors and know in your head, she will betray with those things as she feels she has the right?

 I guess what I am asking is all biblical counseling aside and other counseling. Has it gotten to the point you feel good continuing on?  What is your plan from here? You can't go forever as adults going to have someone sign papers with basic thoughts between can you? The person can't control her, or make her, neither can you. So is she bringing to the table the healing she needs to make this work?

I know she is a wonderful wife, mental illness aside, probably great Mom and friend. I know you both have put lots of effort. So I guess at some point, if no one can get through, do you try some other means? Other counseling? Other methods? Or accept her as she is?

Just some thoughts for you. Biblical is of Christ and God( I am Baptist as well), God can work miracles, through and with people. But alas people have free will, and the choice is up to her. Mental illness or not, the counselor can only do their best, and frankly if she is lying to him. It is clearly not his fault.

Just some thoughts. Hope I didn't over step my bounds. Just throwing out there. Use what you can, throw out the rest and be blessed.

[formflier]

Nope, didn't overstep bounds. 


He was quite frustrated as he related that he had NEVER counseled a couple that "had to" have things written down between them.

He did feel "boxed in" as he had just said that he was holding me responsible for "lack of clarity" in our marriage before and that I was responsible for leading the way out of that.  To which I said... ."I 100% agree... "  that I thought we had healed our marriage to the point where writing was needed and I made a decision to talk through issues and trust.  I was clear that I made the error and that I would correct that error.

I have written him a letter, which he apparently has not read yet, asking if he is able to have a conversation about "openess" perhaps not being the best policy as that "feeds" whatever my wife's underlying condition is.

Even previous Biblical counselor (several years ago... before I read SWOE) got to the place where my wife was only allowed to ask a question 1 time, I gave one answer and she was supposed to trust God with the rest.

I meet with P later today and will obviously discuss.  For now there still seems to be a stabilizing role for MC.  I do need to be ready for what happens when he gives up, or we get kicked out... .or he demands something that I will not give.   

FF

[formflier]

So... to give balance... .or where he was useful.


He was 100% on my side and pressed my wife for a while about why on earth she would not want to have marital discussions in private.  Wife wanted kids to see.  There was sighing and huffing for a couple of minutes, to which he asked for an explanation and didn't get one.  She finally agreed to hold discussions in private.
 
Once he read the paper that I had written about dealings with lawyers, he did stick with the issue until he got a verbal agreement from my wife that she is NOT allowed to contact "the other side" without first talking to me, then talking to our lawyer and if we are both saying no that she should seek further counsel on "what is righteous in the eyes of the Lord" before proceeding.  She said she understood and agreed.

Note to all:  As I just wrote that... .I'm struck by how preposterous it is that I had to go to such lengths to get my wife to agree to marital privilege.  Sigh... .

FF

[KateCat]

I'm struck by the fact that you're still trying to get your wife to sign (and understand) contracts, when she seems to be a primary source of your other contractual disputes. 

Thank you to Lilyroze for her post above, which gives an explanation I can understand of a Christian biblical perspective on the difficult choices faced by spouses of people with mental illness. Trying to contain family problems so that they do not spill over onto other people is a continuing issue for a lot of us.

[formflier]

Yeah... .so I had her sign a "covenant and understanding" (language and spoken words that went with it at direction of my P).

Contract is for business... .people in an intimate relationship make promises and covenants to each other. (the basic jist)

And it was a choice.  If you want access to information we will have a written understanding of our promises and covenants.  Or you can freely choose to not engage in that activity... .without persecution.

However... .from a boundaries point of view.  You don't get access to "my" property without covenants and understandings.

She gets to make choices... .I have already made mine.  Was clear to her... .and to MC. 

They both "blinked... "

Hope this clarifies... .

There was a time when I thought this type of things would "fix" her and I "pushed".  Now... I make my decisions about my boundaries... .and she has choices.  My job is to remain steadfast.  She sorts out her own emotions and decisions without me pestering.

I get how it can "look" the same, but there is a big shift in mindset on my part.

FF

[KateCat]

formflier, do you have a plan for managing your strictly business contracts in the future?

I'm wondering, for instance, what would happen if you did develop your property management company further and did become a landlord with multiple tenants. Based on past experience, would you predict your wife might go door to door of these properties demanding to know if tenants were having affairs with you? Would there be a way to prevent that from happening if that is a concern?

Just wondering what the future looks like from a practical business point of view. What will and what won't be compatible with your wife's mental illness? What can you independently turn your attention to if/when joint counseling comes to a conclusion?

[formflier]

KateCat,

As usual... .wonderful questions.

Right now I own or have interests in 8 properties.   My plans are to reduce that exposure to 3 properties.  Action is being taken on that as we speak.  Likely it will take 6 months or so to get there... .perhaps longer... .

Staying with my wife and managing that kind of business are fundamentally not compatible.

I have a few job applications in... .I am being very selective about what I make any effort on.

I also have a deadline for social security disability of having a completed claim by September to use my original filing date as the date of disability.  There is a special program for 100% disabled veterans that fast tracks their applications.  The standards are the same.

I would say I'm 50/50 on getting it the first time around.  Standards are different than VA.  There is enough of a chance that it is worth my while to try.

Again... wonderful questions... .keep them coming. 

Already have extra session set aside with P this week to make sure we get through all issues.

FF

[formflier]

More accurately said.  The amount of effort I choose to put into my family (wife AND kids) is fundamentally not compatible.

For instance:  Last night it was obvious I needed to get kids out of house.  So, instead of looking over lovely legal papers... .I loaded the van and took them to see horse for couple hours.  Leaving wife at home alone.

Kids first!

FF

[Verbena]

What happened last night that led you to get kids out of house?  Your wife was okay with you doing that?  If so, that's a really good thing. 

[formflier]

 Luckily... .nothing actually happened.  And yes... .that is a very good thing that she lets them go.

Relatively speaking... yesterday was "bruising" for her in counseling.  She "lost" several and "won" zero.  (the way she likely looks at it).

She was pensive... .sniffly... .and expressed a desire to go "hang out" at her parents house.  Using word tracks that my P helped me created... .I expressed that I could help her have alone time... .get kiddos off her hands.  Basically to let her have space... .without suggesting she needed it.

We had a good evening after that.  I came back hours later and she was in good mood.  Took bath together... .good snuggle time. 

Basically I was being proactive.

Today... .didn't see any way to avoid it.  She was being public with disrespect and accusations and we used MC's "conference table" to try and work through it.

Basically... .I called her on not exhibiting the correct behavior that we mutually agreed on.

When either party asks to pray... .both parties shut their mouths and focus on pleasing God.  She got louder and more hateful.

Also busted procedure on what to when a person raises their hand.  If hand is raised... .talking stops.  She gets louder and more forceful.

Yep... .she will loose that one as well.  Her choice... .

Sigh...

Looking forward to P visit in few minutes.

FF

[Fian]

 FF,

If you're the husband, you're to love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it (Ephesians 5:25). If you're the wife, you're to treat your mate with respect as head of the house (Ephesians 5:22-23; I Peter 3:1).

In other words, your first priority is your spouse's spiritual welfare. It's also important to keep in mind that your choices will affect the spiritual state of your children if you have any (1 Corinthians 7:14)

So my question to you is biblical counselor aside , what is your plan for future? If she doesn’t respect those things, ( the counselling, basic common sense for your court case) you need to plan on your  strategy for this relationship, because you’re never going to make it if she doesn’t respect you, and respect God and respect your relationship with God. How can you be in a relationship with someone that doesn’t respect your faith and your convictions if Christian?

As a Christian, I disagree with this.  There is my part (husband) and my wife's part.  My focus is on me doing my part.  It should not be whether she is doing her part.  That is between her and God.  I am in the marriage for as long as God wants me in the marriage, not for when she stops doing her equal share.  It should also be noted that what the Bible tells the man and woman to do are not easy.  Once you say, "Unless you do your part, I won't stay in the marriage", you are really setting the marriage up for failure.  We are still sinners, and if we expect our spouse to be sinless, it is going to be really easy to find reasons to leave.

[Lilyroze]

 FF,

If you're the husband, you're to love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it (Ephesians 5:25). If you're the wife, you're to treat your mate with respect as head of the house (Ephesians 5:22-23; I Peter 3:1).

In other words, your first priority is your spouse's spiritual welfare. It's also important to keep in mind that your choices will affect the spiritual state of your children if you have any (1 Corinthians 7:14)

So my question to you is biblical counselor aside , what is your plan for future? If she doesn’t respect those things, ( the counselling, basic common sense for your court case) you need to plan on your  strategy for this relationship, because you’re never going to make it if she doesn’t respect you, and respect God and respect your relationship with God. How can you be in a relationship with someone that doesn’t respect your faith and your convictions if Christian?

As a Christian, I disagree with this.  There is my part (husband) and my wife's part.  My focus is on me doing my part.  It should not be whether she is doing her part.  That is between her and God.  I am in the marriage for as long as God wants me in the marriage, not for when she stops doing her equal share.  It should also be noted that what the Bible tells the man and woman to do are not easy.  Once you say, "Unless you do your part, I won't stay in the marriage", you are really setting the marriage up for failure.  We are still sinners, and if we expect our spouse to be sinless, it is going to be really easy to find reasons to leave.

I respect your opinion and agree, I certainly did not mean what you assumed or implied from my post. I meant in regards to FF posts, and his reason for being in marital biblical counselling as well as other counselling. I am talking in regards to the standard to hold the MC to ( there is only so much they can do with a mental illness)

 I have been 18 years in a mental illness marriage, ( with abuse) so have not stayed hoping one would be sinless. I am only writing to clarify my views so they are not misrepresented or assumptions here.  

Though I am Baptist, I have ran counselling for Fathers Rights groups ( on anger management) many years ago and marital for Saint Mary's of the Woods on a few retreats over years. I am no expert, but didn't ever mean anyone would expect someone to be sinless. Or equal parts, whether to stay. A Biblical counselor is held to a standard and can't be diagnosing someone unless a Dr. in that field ( which is rare).

There will be choices FF has to make, and only his to make not just on the counseling, his business, and future. If she is not willing to do some, then he has to decide if the MC is best not being biblical based, as she is not open to be honest and a waste of MC time.

FF knew what I meant as he answered my questions.

I will not defend my faith or post, but will explain a misunderstanding. Be well be blessed.

[empath]

Must be something in the air. I had a significant movement in my pastor's understanding of our 'marital issue'. He thought that I was holding up the progress based on my husband's description of the issue (my 'spiritual struggles' that I've denied being an issue). He thought that we just had 'unhealthy communication patterns' and needed marriage counseling; I've been pushing back on that one due to the abuse.

When I described the issue and what was holding up the progress, he said he was out of his league with that and I needed professional help. (I just thought, yeah, that's why I've been getting better help than you can provide) He had brought up triangulation, so I asked them to speak to me directly about issues related to me.

Seriously, we are not responsible for our spouse's interpretive issues, only for ourselves, our responses and words.  The minimization makes us seem unreasonable.  Unless someone hears these conversations, it is hard for them to understand the twisting that happens.

What they are dealing with is 'not normal,' and the cognitive distortions are challenging to explain.

[Lilyroze]

Empath 

What they are dealing with is 'not normal,' and the cognitive distortions are challenging to explain.

Totally agree, that is the hardest part. They see and feel things, that are distorted, or worse rage in private and seem fine in public, and to others. Some can hold it together for work, or in couseling and twist everything you say until you begin to question yourself... .

It is very tough then to try to get counselers or Dr's to see where and how they need help, as they don't see they need help, nor want it. Very trying indeed. Especially due to the illness many project, dismiss help or lack empathy so there you sit.

It is best for us to do our work within, our core values, boundaries, and beliefs and hope they do the work for themselves, get help or are willing to do what is necessary.

Many times faced with the choice of help they don't want or feel they need it. Then couple that with how long it takes to explain to those in position to help them, what the situation is while they twist and distort is enough to drive you to sadness and madness. Sheer heartbreak if you are for saving them, the family, and are a caring fixer type person. You do everything within your power to have compassion, care and try to well, be blamed most times.

[KateCat]

Once you say, "Unless you do your part, I won't stay in the marriage", you are really setting the marriage up for failure.

Fian, I don't disagree with this. Not for a minute! And it seems that, while formflier's wife has threatened divorce dozens, if not hundreds of times, he never has.

But what a puzzle when there is verbal abuse. And what a puzzle when that abuse is public, and in front of children. And what a puzzle when a wife with paranoia openly expresses contempt for her husband. (Sadly, a clinical feature of paranoia can often be feelings of contempt for close family members.)

Formflier, kudos to you for working on this so, so hard. I am keenly following the story of your counseling with the senior psychologist. Please keep the updates coming, as they help many of us.

(It is also interesting to hear of the input of the Biblical Counselor. I couldn't begin to guess what he will do or think as time goes on, as I've only been counseled by professional mental health workers myself. You are no doubt giving this fellow a meaty workout!)

[formflier]

Yep... .the moment yesterday when MC said that he had never counseled a couple that had to have written agreements and records... .but he was willing to try... was a true human moment.  I felt for the guy... .

More later... .great session with P today.  Getting an extra session in later this evening.  Lots to discuss.

FF