Therapist's thoughts on Codependency

[Depression = 72% of members]

I finally made it to therapy.  Not really impressed with the facility, but the therapist was nice enough.  One comment she made was in response to me saying that I think I have some symptoms of co dependency, was that she doesn't think co dependency is bad and that I probably benefit from helping others and should try to do that more.  She also wanted me to keep in contact with my parents until I told her how hard that would be for me and then she mentioned possible PTSD.  I'm sorta thinking there are co dependency support groups and dozens of books on co dependency- is the therapist out in left field?  I didn't make a follow up appointment, but that was mostly because the receptionist was busy.  Thoughts?

[MoreGuilt]

I finally made it to therapy.  Not really impressed with the facility, but the therapist was nice enough.  One comment she made was in response to me saying that I think I have some symptoms of co dependency, was that she doesn't think co dependency is bad and that I probably benefit from helping others and should try to do that more.  She also wanted me to keep in contact with my parents until I told her how hard that would be for me and then she mentioned possible PTSD.  I'm sorta thinking there are co dependency support groups and dozens of books on co dependency- is the therapist out in left field?  I didn't make a follow up appointment, but that was mostly because the receptionist was busy.  Thoughts?

[eeks]

Hi MoreGuilt,

Are you saying this is the first time you have had therapy?  If so, I am glad to hear that you have taken this step to seek help.  A good therapist is priceless but unfortunately many of them just aren't.  And it can be hard, especially when you are feeling vulnerable, to judge whether a therapist is the right one for you.  It sounds like you are already having some doubts about it, so good for you for sharing it here to get a few second opinions.

Saying that she doesn't think codependency is bad and you should try to help others more, to me that is an oversimplistic understanding of codependency.  Also, do you think she knows enough about you and your life to tell you you should try to help others more, after only one session?

I would want a therapist who asks questions like, what do you do that makes you think you are codependent?  Do you define yourself and your worth based on your own standards, or others'?  When you give, do you feel like you are full and giving from the overflow, or do you give when you're already depleted?  Does giving make you feel nourished, or drained?  (and eventually talk about how to deal with it when you want to change your behaviour and the people around you react because they "liked you the old way"

I also think she cannot know enough about you at this stage to tell you either that you should or shouldn't keep in contact with your parents!  This decision is very personal anyways, and I would much prefer a therapist who, rather than telling me what I should do, facilitates me making the decision by giving context, describing potential outcomes, etc.

Let me give an example of how a therapist did not help me, to illustrate what I would have found helpful.  I saw a psychoanalyst for a year and a half, (quit because I wasn't getting results).  After about 6 months I was talking to him about how my mother always has a watertight explanation for everything she said or did to/with me in my childhood.  (I don't think she has a personality disorder, her father likely had NPD, she was sexually abused by a family friend at age 4 and both her parents were authoritarian.  I see her symptoms as mostly rigid trauma defenses due to emotional and sexual abuse)

I was phoning my mother a lot at that time - I was (and still am) unemployed and, probably due to a core shame I am now realizing I have that none of the therapy I've had has really touched, I was hiding/avoiding people, because one of the first things they ask when you first meet them is what you do for a living.  I became too ashamed to even tell old friends "yep, still not working".  So I relied on my mother for a lot of my need for human contact.

My therapist told me to not call my mother so often, because it was interfering with the therapy. I just felt like a disobedient child, a "bad girl" who wasn't following the therapy rules.  (And in retrospect, if what he had to offer was so good, why does he need to keep my mother's "messaging" away from me, shouldn't it be easy in that case to give what he says priority over what my mother says? And, if the therapy is working, shouldn't I come around to not WANTING to call my mother, on my own?)

The other thing I don't think he kept in mind was that, hey, this is psychoanalysis, that means that a lot of what I said was happening in my life currently he would tie it back to something my mother said or did in my childhood or adolescence... .and guess what, in between sessions I was all alone with that information.  Whether that was just an unfortunate aspect of the therapy process that has to be gone through, or a sign that he was not helping me make the connection between my present and past in a way that would have been effective, I don't know.  In any case, it got stirred up without being resolved and for better or worse, I sometimes dealt with that by calling my mother and talking about what my therapist had said.

Right, so back to what the therapist did, and what he could have done that would have been more helpful.  When he said not to call her, I said, "Who am I supposed to rely on, then?" He said "Me!"  I said "You are only two hours a week, what about the rest of the time?  I am alone all week, she's the only person I have!"  I was crying by that point.  He said he understood, that she's all I have.  After that, he never mentioned to me again not calling her.  I don't think that was helpful for him to completely back off like that. 

He could have explained it to me in a way that was a "hard truth" but still respecting my sensitivity and vulnerability at the time.  I would have been more helped if he'd said something like, "The thing is, when you call her, you get the same message every time.  Another "dose" of that same "drug" that, from what I know about her through you, you already got repeatedly through your childhood.  She is a trauma survivor, and from what I know of her through you sounds to be in denial about a lot of things and lives mostly in defense/survival mode. She hasn't had any therapy, she doesn't have the self-awareness you do." And probably something about the grief or loss of fantasy that might come up when I do this.  After bringing those emotions out into the open, then we could talk about some alternate healthy things I could do instead when I want to call her.   

I imagine your situation is not the same as mine.  However, if it were me I would want a therapist who would respect and help me deal with the difficulty and complexity of contact with disordered parents... .like what about when it's necessary to have contact?  What are you truly hoping to get from contacting them?  Etc.

Good luck with your therapy journey.  (I hope I haven't turned you off therapists completely!  I'm sure there are some good ones out there)
eeks

[MoreGuilt]

Yes, this was the first time in therapy for me.  The therapist reminded me of a fortune teller in that she just threw stuff out there to see what stuck.  She suggested that I may be perimenopausal.  She also suggested that I may just be realizing my kids will be on their own soon.  She also told me she is sure I am a good mother.  How would she know that?  I thought that was strange.  I have to wonder if my mom sat before her if she would have told her she was a good mother too    I don't know about the co-dependency thing.  My sister doesn't believe in it either, but I think she shows some strong BPD traits, so I don't know... .Then it hit me that maybe this therapist has BPD!  My mom is very nice to people she doesn't know, too.  Did you end up finding a good therapist, eeks?

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Moreguilt

I'm glad that you posted the thoughts you did about your T session and Co-dependency. In my opinion, I also have concerns, like those Eeks mentioned. Kudos to you for your ability to think through things enough to be able to step back and analyze the situation!  You were brave to take that first step tto, reaching out to find a T.

Finding a good T is so important, especially if you've had a pwBPD in your life.  Is your parent a BPD? It is indeed worthwhile to take time to look around and find someone who is going to be helpful to you as you seek to understand the effcts of BPD in your life. In my own T, I am frequently asked questions to get me thinking, to help me look at the past and how it has affected me. My T does not tell me how I should be or need to be thinking. He largely helps to draw me to process and think so that I can grow and heal. He challenges me when he feels I need to look at a situation differently. I encourage you to keep looking. Do you have any friends who can give you recommendations? Also be sure to ask if they have any experience in working with BPD.

There is an article about Co-dependency here that you may want to read if you haven't already:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

I find that I struggle with codependency a lot. It was something I learned very well from my uBPDm. Such a challenge to break the cycle, but it is possible. What causes you to feel as if you may have codependency issues?

Wools

[Turkish]

Co-dependency is one of those terms whose definition is unclear.  People who are rescuers,  for example,  may or may not exhibit co-dependent behaviors.  I'm thinking of rescuer types in a number of professions.  

To throw another opinion out there,  my T balked at me calling myself codependent.  He said that he was treating a woman who was (and keep in mind that  codependency isn't a diagnosis), and that it permeated every aspect of her life,  not just one or two relationships.  

Maybe a good question for the T would be to ask why specifically would it be good to keep in contact with your parents.  It's there an angle here in which it makes sense from a PTSD perspective?  My T said that there's nothing wrong with being a Rescuer.  He was one.  It's a noble trait to help people,  showing compassion.  

[Notwendy]

It took me a while to understand the term codependency. It was especially confusing as one can be an independent person in terms of being able to take care of oneself and be codependent at the same time. The difference between helping someone/doing something nice for someone and being co-dependent is not always that obvious.

I think it is great that you have begun therapy. I don't know what to make of your T's comments. People can be co-dependent to various degrees- there's a spectrum like there is with BPD. How "bad" or "good" that is is probably related to how much it interferes with someone's life and relationships. Perhaps she was trying to say that it isn't bad like the plague is bad- one can work on it? Helping people is a good thing- the challenge is to offer the kind of help that it in their best interest, not enabling or out of your own fear, or to your detriment. I don't know what she means about contact with your parents. I would think she would need more information to determine that situation.

It's hard to say what to do or not. One session isn't enough time to get the whole picture- for you or her. I guess your choices are to give this another chance and see where she is heading. I agree that I wouldn't waste a lot of time or money on something that doesn't work, but I don't know if one session is enough time to tell.

[HappyChappy]

The therapist reminded me of a fortune teller in that she just threw stuff out there to see what stuck.

Hi MoreGuilt,

I’ve had experience of a few therapist and found them to be very helpful and the one thing that jumps out about your account, assuming I’ve read it correctly, is that you had one session and several big  terms were banded about. Something like PTSD can be tricky to diagnose, but is common among children of BPD. The co-dependency label also common, but are these diagnosis’s or areas to explore ? I tried three T all of whom had their merits, but the 3rd one was spot on the money. So I’d keep looking. Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT) and EFT are the two approaches with the best success rate for PTSD and just correcting negative thinking in general. But there are other types. Best of luck

[Notwendy]

I don't know how long the idea of co-dependency has been around, but I am actually astounded that no therapist has mentioned it to me since recently.

I grew up assuming that if I didn't act like my mother, I would be OK. It seemed I was. I got good grades in school, had friends, went to college and didn't seem different from other young people my age. In fact, us kids doing well had an affect of "normalizing" BPD mom and invalidating us. People would say " she couldn't have been all that bad- look at how you kids turned out".

By teens and college, I began to struggle emotionally and it appeared in dating/close friendships. BPD mom was a family secret. Relatives told us nothing about her. She was "normal" and if she was upset with us, we were the problem. But by my teens, I knew she wasn't normal and that our family was different. Other kids didn't come home from school wondering if a raging mother would open the door.

So, I decided, on my own, to discuss my FOO with the college counselor and later, when there were issues in my marriage, a counselor to help me with that. I was forthcoming about my childhood. Later, when I learned mom had BPD, I asked for help with that.

It wasn't until relatively recently that a counselor used the term codependent with me and advised me to check out a 12 step group. I was shocked. Me? 12 steps? I thought that was for alcoholics and drug addicts and I was neither one of those. But I hope I don't sound too preachy when I recommend them, because they added something to the therapy, and would have helped me sooner had I known to go to one.

One thing I do wonder about why co-dependency was not suggested sooner, is- how aware are therapists of this? Is it mostly dealt with in 12 step groups- and in that case, not something all T's are aware of? I may just have been fortunate that this T had experience with this. On the other hand, some people do not like 12 step groups at all. I think we may need to explore different options to see what seems to work for us.

[MoreGuilt]

Hi Wools-  I have an uBPDm and uNPDf.  Roughly a year and a half ago, I discovered my husband had been doing something for the past 20+ years behind my back that he knew was wrong and against our marriage and when I found out, it turned my world upside down.  In trying to figure out why it shook me up so bad ( I couldn't eat for 2 days), I went online and discovered that I was most likely codependent with my husband.  The specific traits I see in myself from the checklist  are self-sacrificing, overwhelming desire for acceptance, external referencing, denial, and low self-worth.  I revolved around my husband but he did not revolve around me.  I mentioned co-dependency to the T because had I not realized these behaviors in myself, and started working on them, I may not have been able to see the BPD and NPD in my parents and continued with the denial and subsequent physical illnesses that ended up costing me my job.  I had an true awakening over the course of a year.

Hi Turkish-  Interesting about your T's comments about codependency permeating more than one or two relationships.  I guess I'd qualify because I exhibited the traits at work and in volunteer work as well.  I was a confidante to my uNPDf and covered for my uBPDm behaviors.  I did tell the T straight out that I didn't see any point in keeping contact with my parents since we both agreed they aren't going to change.  I mentioned that I have 2 siblings that live in the same town as them- the golden child even still lives at home!  He is going to inherit everything, we all know this, not that I want any of it, but in all fairness, he can inherit the elder issues as they arise as well, then.   She did mention  compassion, helping  and giving to others  and I told her that I think I have plenty of opportunities to give to my children right now. I felt like I was defending my position, so maybe I am simply not open to T's advice about the level of contact with my parents.  I am angry with them.

Hi NotWendy-  For me with my husband, I did do a lot of things for fear he would leave me if I didn't.  I married young- to get out of my parent's house- and didn't think I could support myself financially- especially with the loss of my job.   I feel trapped.  I was hoping that the T could help me with that too.

Hello Happy Chappy-  I think if I do continue in therapy that I will try to look more into PTSD.  When she threw that one out there, it did stick.  What is EFT?  Can I try any of those online?

[Notwendy]

Our FOO issues do spill over into our relationships and even how we parent the next generation. I got my co-dependent traits from modeling after my father and being held responsible for my mother's feelings and being her emotional caretaker from a young age. I had no idea there was any other way to be, since this was the norm in my house. But taking these traits into relationships led to dysfunction.


The co-dependency and ACA ( or ACOA ) ( extends to adult children of dysfunction, even without alcohol) groups helped me- but one doesn't get nearly as much out of the groups without the one on one with a sponsor. It was terrifying to do this- I had no idea what to expect- but for me, this, in addition to therapy, really helped me to break the habits. It's really hard work. Sitting in meetings can't replace that. Having a sponsor turn the mirror on me and what I was doing wasn't comfortable, but I an grateful for it.

[HappyChappy]

What is EFT?  Can I try any of those online?

EFT is sometimes called tapping. Here you create a repetitive rhythm by tapping or following a finger with your eyes. So probably not on-line, but CBT is something you can do out of books or online. E.g.
Free On-Line Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Program (CBT)