Trying to find my feet after finally breaking off BPD relationship

[eprogeny]

Hello everyone.  I'm 45, female, and have been in a 4 year long "something" with a younger woman who I think has BPD based on all I've read.  Due to my own issues (PTSD from childhood trauma), the relationship with this woman was very difficult for me - especially as she is the first person with whom I've ever risked love.

Yesterday, I finally got to the point where I had to stop everything - even all forms of communication, because I just couldn't take it anymore.  What had once been the most wonderful thing in my life turned into a years-long epic of emotional push/pull, lies, and mistreatment... .all while being told how "important", "valuable", and "worth it" I was to her.  But too much has happened, and too many lies have been exposed, and the stark mistreatment of me compared to the fantastic way she treats others just got me to a breaking point finally.

Whatever value I once held for her, I know now it disappeared long ago.  She has broken my heart, and me, multiple times - bouncing into new romances with others only to keep me on the hook as some sort of safety net.  It's been too much chaos for too long. 

What I can never know is how much of what we were was real for her, or for how long, even though all of it was always real for me.  I loved her, and I think part of me always will, but I know I cannot be with her.  I don't even think I can be a part of her life as a friend, which she so desperately wants me to be, because we tried that the last year and it was no better than any of the other later parts of our relationship.  Everything I loved about her, and what drew me to her, has been gone for a long time.  i just kept thinking it would come back if I was understanding enough while she dealt with her emotional turbulence.  I was wrong.

She used to self-injure, but I don't think she's done that in about 3 years.  She has no rage, at least not that is directed outward, has serious depressive bouts, and constantly swings from adoring and detesting the people in her life - especially me.  I could list all the things she's done to me, that I allowed to be done, but there's no real good in that.  I just know her behaviors and her words never match.  And it feels like I've been emotionally abused - which is why I've finally walked away.

I'm not really sure what I'm doing here, but I have found some comfort in posts made by others regarding their own experiences *as* someone with BPD.  I do have one question that I'm not sure anyone can really "answer", but any thoughts you wish to share would be much appreciated:

If she gets the therapy she so clearly needs, and she's successful in her recovery path, would there be any point in reconnecting with her?  Obviously, I will always hope she and I can have a future - but I know it isn't possible without her recovery, and my own (I'm in therapy for my PTSD)... .what I don't know is if someone post-recovery ever looks back at any of the pre-recovery people they used and sees them as actual people with whom they can and will be able to have a healthy relationship.

I'm just so incredibly sad, and I'm not even sure why at this point.  :/

[joeramabeme]

Hi eprogeny

Welcome to BPD Family.  So glad you made your first post.  I see that you have spent some time reading other stories and it is a great way to feel comfortable with sharing some of your own.  There are lots of us who spent time reviewing posts before taking that step.

I am sorry to hear about your relationship - even if you were the one who initiated the break; it is a very big step.  How long has it been since you have contacted her?  Does she accept that this is the right decision for her?

Regarding your question; "what I don't know is if someone post-recovery ever looks back at any of the pre-recovery people they used and sees them as actual people with whom they can and will be able to have a healthy relationship."  I am not a professional, just a fellow non that has experienced the heartbreak of a lost relationship with a partner who has traits of BPD, but a few thoughts come to mind.

People with BPD are individuals, so if she did receive treatment that is not necessarily a precursor to exploring possible re-connections with the past - I think that decision is less about treatment and more about whomever the individual is and there tendencies.  This is a question I too have asked and found myself having hope that possibly there could be a different outcome.

Do you think that if her disorder were not a factor, than your relationship would have lasted?  Or that if she gets treatment than you can get back together?

JRB

[eprogeny]

Hi joe. Thanks for the kind response.  To answer your questions:

Hi eprogeny

How long has it been since you have contacted her?  Does she accept that this is the right decision for her?

Last night was when I ended all contact - blocked her from my phone and my social media.  She does not accept it, she has intense abandonment issues, but I think she is resigned to it as the inevitable.

Do you think that if her disorder were not a factor, than your relationship would have lasted?  Or that if she gets treatment than you can get back together?

It is hard to know the answer to your first question here.  I'm not sure right now if we would have even had a relationship if not for her BPD.  She said that she "couldn't handle" the wild emotional swings that she had with loving me - one moment loving me beyond measure, and the next feeling absolutely nothing for me.  I know only that she hated how it made her feel, and that to some degree it including a feeling of being completely out of control and unable to know what it was she did feel for me because it was never consistent.

If she gets treatment, and has success with it, I'm not sure if we could or would be able to be in a relationship again.  Would I want that?  Yes, of course, but only if it could be healthy for both of us.  I just don't know if a pre-recovery BPD's romantic partner is someone that could be a successful post-recovery BPD person's romantic partner.  I hope that made sense.  What I'm trying to say is, if she picked me during her pre-recovery, then I cannot help but wonder if she picked me precisely because I'm an impossible successful relationship choice for her irrespective of her recovery, or if there was an actual chance for us that the lack of recovery ended. 

I guess, in a way, it is my way of trying to gauge the "realness" factor.  For some reason, it seems harder to think none of it was real than to think there had been a real chance - even if it was only a small one, and short-lived.

[patientandclear]

Hi there. I relate to much that you wrote here--the wild swings, the erosion of what was wonderful after many rounds of ambivalence and subtle mistreatment and devaluation out of the blue. Also, the friendship experiment (I no longer can do this--it's exploitative, me giving deep love which he eagerly accepts while calling it something else that allows for no accountability or acknowledgement).

Anyway. Three thoughts in response to your question. One, don't hold your breath on the prospect of recovery. She's likely to continue to be the woman you know. How hard is it even for us, without baked in personality disorders, to change our core impulses and ideas?

Two, I think whether the r/ship retains its core value depends somewhat on how you've handled it throughout--with respect for yourself and for her despite the mess? That's the one thing that has somehow survived the carnage of the past five years of my BPD r/ship, which is why I think he retains a confused allegiance to it. It's warm but has not been thoroughly corrupted by my allowing crappy behaviors. Which has come at a huge cost to me in repeatedly walking away, enforcing boundaries etc.

The more important point though is this. Whether SHE would see you as a suitable partner post-recovery is only half the question. At what point is your feeling for her different because of what has actually happened? I have a huge degree of resistance to this but my feelings for my person have begun to change. Whether he had any choice in the matter or not, he has not taken care of me or us. He has taken the lovely thing for granted, and to the extent he hasn't, it's because I've prevented that with boundaries, not because he doesn't want to continue to extract the good stuff from me/us as an object.

I've been slower to shift my love feelings from him in light of this actual sequence of events than I would like, but they are changing. I'm going to try to move that process along. It counts. I came to love someone whom I never thought would act like this. But he did.

So I guess the question is whether YOUR feelings post- your own recovery would be compatible with this r/ship.

Sorry it's so very painful. I know too well.

[eprogeny]

Hi patientandclear

Hi there. I relate to much that you wrote here--the wild swings, the erosion of what was wonderful after many rounds of ambivalence and subtle mistreatment and devaluation out of the blue. Also, the friendship experiment (I no longer can do this--it's exploitative, me giving deep love which he eagerly accepts while calling it something else that allows for no accountability or acknowledgement).

Thank you for sharing that.  It helps in some odd way, to know I am not alone.  Like you, I believe the friendship experiment is just not healthy.

You've raised some good points to ponder.  I am not confident she will seek help, or that she will actually commit to it if she does.  I think she would really just prefer how to pretend better so she doesn't get caught again, if you now what I mean. ;p

I don't know what my feelings will do post-relationship.  I've never been in love before, so I don't really know what changes may come.  I think my feelings now would preclude a relationship, but not because I wouldn't want one.  I just know it wouldn't be healthy.  If there is ever going to be a hope I know it will mean she will have had to have had successful therapy, and come to a place where she is capable of what she's not capable of now.  And I'd have to believe it.

I don't think there's a high chance of it, but if I weren't such a hopeful person I'm sure I wouldn't have hung in there with her as long as I did.  In the end it's less about will she, and more of "what if she did?" sort of thing.  Simply knowing whether a recovered BPD person has ever been able to look back at pre-recovery days and say "yep, I did actually love that person, but I did it in unhealthy ways and ruined it - and her along the way." 

I am not hoping it will happen for me.  It would be enough to know that it could or did legitimately happen (and not in a "well anything can happen" for someone.  Knowing that was a possibility for her, allows me to believe in the possibility of it having had something real to it.  Right now I struggle with having no choice but to believe none of it was real - I can handle it ending, I just can't quite find my feet not knowing what was real or manufactured.

[patientandclear]

I suspect had the feelings not been strong and specific to you, it would not have crashed in the way(s) that it did.

When love is set up to preclude vulnerability on the part of one person, I'm not sure it is the same kind of love as you experienced on your part. That's how I think of the "other person as object" dynamic that seems to characterize BPD relationships.

For what it's worth, as much of a painful mess as my r/ship became, I do think as we went on it became more and more real. And thus more and more unmanageable through his normal mechanisms. But no longer unreal to the extent that's how it began.

[thisagain]

Welcome to the family!

I remember having similar questions after my breakup. In a way, it would have been comforting to know that there was a real person under there who really loved me and wanted to be my partner. And that but for the BPD, we could have had the beautiful future that we dreamed of together. Is that kind of where you're coming from?

I think that the kind of recovery you're describing -- complete, consistent, with insight into how the disorder affected her past perceptions -- is pretty close to impossible. My BPD ex was in therapy for most of our relationship and had some insights that seemed really promising at the time. For example, she told me a few times that when she's "doing well" it seems like I'm a lot nicer to her, but really, I'm probably treating her well all the time and she just distorts it.

But she couldn't hold onto that insight the next time she devalued me. Her actual memory of what was said and done could change based on her mood. I don't think she could ever recover enough to not have the false memories of me saying and doing supposedly heinous things.

And I think it's also important to recognize that there's an enormous amount of pain on YOUR end that would affect a future relationship. Someone told me right after my breakup that even if his ex-wife did recover, he wouldn't want to resume the relationship because he would constantly be worrying about whether she was going to regress, questioning whether her feelings were healthy or BPD, etc. And that would be too hard on the relationship.

How are you feeling today after ending contact last night?

Before this relationship, did you ever think you were "in love"? Relationships involving BPD can be VERY intense and make us think that none of our previous relationships were anywhere near this passionate, loving, etc. This can make the breakup harder because we fear we'll never find that kind of connection again. So I'm curious if that might be contributing here, or if this was really the first relationship in which you felt in love.

[eprogeny]

I suspect had the feelings not been strong and specific to you, it would not have crashed in the way(s) that it did.

When love is set up to preclude vulnerability on the part of one person, I'm not sure it is the same kind of love as you experienced on your part. That's how I think of the "other person as object" dynamic that seems to characterize BPD relationships.

Thank you for this.  It sounds so odd, when I read the words you've given, but I can actually understand what you are saying... .that the reason it was so chaotic was because she did have some mutual vulnerability, if even just briefly.  It makes sense that this is why she felt extremes that she couldn't handle, and would also explain why she keeps trying to find the same connection with others, without the extremes, and failing.

For what it's worth, as much of a painful mess as my r/ship became, I do think as we went on it became more and more real. And thus more and more unmanageable through his normal mechanisms. But no longer unreal to the extent that's how it began.

I think for us it was the opposite.  She set out to charm me and then became unnerved when I bypassed all of that to focus on just her.  Part of my childhood trauma involved an explosively angry BPD parent, so it's really not a surprise that I was able to pick up on the subtleties - and wasn't turned off by the opposite-aligned actions and words.  At least while they were in my favor. hah! 

The relationship itself opened a lot of old wounds, and it sent my PTSD therapy into a whole different direction where I have come to learn I have a lot more to work on than I knew at the time.  I think it was the first year of our relationship that was the most real for her, because she systematically closed off every channel of actual connection we had until all that was left was a surface friendship.

[eprogeny]

Welcome to the family!

I remember having similar questions after my breakup. In a way, it would have been comforting to know that there was a real person under there who really loved me and wanted to be my partner. And that but for the BPD, we could have had the beautiful future that we dreamed of together. Is that kind of where you're coming from?

Nailed it!

Yes.  That's exactly where my head is.  It is okay if I never speak with her again, as hard as that would be, if I knew that our connection had been real - that the possibilities weren't "just" a dream... .that I wasn't so delusional that I believed a wholesale lie for so long, and gave myself to it so wholly.  Because... .wow... .just... .how does one actually protect themselves from that kind of blind naive trust for someone else someday if we couldn't see the lie right in front of our faces?  My PTSD makes me acutely aware of physical dangers... .I never knew there could be emotional ones, until this relationship happened.

I think that the kind of recovery you're describing -- complete, consistent, with insight into how the disorder affected her past perceptions -- is pretty close to impossible. My BPD ex was in therapy for most of our relationship and had some insights that seemed really promising at the time. For example, she told me a few times that when she's "doing well" it seems like I'm a lot nicer to her, but really, I'm probably treating her well all the time and she just distorts it.

I hope it is not impossible.  I have read much on the recovery process, and that people who suffer from BPD have gone on to live their lives a lot more like the rest of us - with quite healthy relationships.  I know they will always have immediate first-reactions like usual, but they are able to apply their therapy and to work through the negativity so that they are making better choices that align with their desired outcomes.  If that isn't true, then there really is no such thing as recovery for anyone with BPD and everyone should just bail on them asap as if they were NPDs.  Because, really, what's the point if they can't get to a functioning level, you know?

But she couldn't hold onto that insight the next time she devalued me. Her actual memory of what was said and done could change based on her mood. I don't think she could ever recover enough to not have the false memories of me saying and doing supposedly heinous things.

Same for my ex, only worse.  She really can't remember anything accurately - and most of the time can't remember it at all.  Anything she experiences that comes with any of her BPD emotions is something she just can't process enough for it to become an independent memory.  Thus, as the mood changes, so does her ability to recollect anything accurately.

And I think it's also important to recognize that there's an enormous amount of pain on YOUR end that would affect a future relationship. Someone told me right after my breakup that even if his ex-wife did recover, he wouldn't want to resume the relationship because he would constantly be worrying about whether she was going to regress, questioning whether her feelings were healthy or BPD, etc. And that would be too hard on the relationship.

How are you feeling today after ending contact last night?

Yes.  Enormous is an understatement.  How it would effect things, as far as what I think for the future, would be that I would be less willing to buy into her sales pitch, and less willing to trust that it wouldn't end up in flames again.  But... .I would be willing to watch and wait and take things slowly and see if the necessary foundation was there for us to be able to have anything meaningful.  I sincerely believe, however, that my own PTSD limitations coupled with her BPD limitations would always have us one step from disaster no matter how successful any therapy might be.  And, I'm not sure that's a risk worth taking without seeing a true commitment from her toward less emotionally-driven decision-making.

As for how I am feeling after last night... .ugh... .mostly I feel strong... .still a little angry, a lot hurt, and somewhat sad.  I am struggling to know what to feel, to be honest.  It's like a feeling of betrayal, but not quite that so much as it is feeling dehumanized or something.  It's hard.  That's the best I can describe it.  I don't want to feel that way anymore, and that's why I walked away - and it's why I wouldn't be willing to have her in my life again, in any capacity, unless she had successful therapy.

I've tried to walk away many times.  Each time, though, I was sucked/suckered back in by the guilt of knowing how much it hurt her to be "abandoned". This time, however, I know my guilt over that is misplaced and that any pain she feels isn't pain that is based on anything valid - and until she learns to manage her symptoms, I will only ever be her unintentional victim.  I may owe her an apology for some choice things I said to her in that last discussion, but life will go on just fine if she never gets to hear it.

Before this relationship, did you ever think you were "in love"? Relationships involving BPD can be VERY intense and make us think that none of our previous relationships were anywhere near this passionate, loving, etc. This can make the breakup harder because we fear we'll never find that kind of connection again. So I'm curious if that might be contributing here, or if this was really the first relationship in which you felt in love.

Man.  Great question.  No, I never felt "in love" before - but I had a couple of relationships where I knew I could have been in love.  I have loved people before, but not ever been "in love" with anyone.  That's a result of my PTSD - where I have always, my entire life, been unable to have both a physically intimate and emotionally intimate relationship with the same person.  It could be one or the other, but never both, and with the emotional intimacy it was always very limited.

My therapist of 6 years said about 4 years ago that I am extremely high-functioning with the PTSD, and have even managed to find a way to make some of the limitations work to my advantage in career, etc., but that the one major area I needed to work was in being able to establish truly emotionally intimate relationships.  Until this ex, I was actually incapable of it.  I ended therapy after that because what did I care about something that I didn't even understand, you know?  

Then I met my now-ex, and I began to realize that with her I would end up having both and it terrified me.  So back to therapy I went, because I did not want my limitations to be what ended us (kind of funny when I think about it now).  I had relationships that were as passionate, one maybe even moreso, but from a physical-only perspective.  I don't know that I've ever had a "loving" relationship since I can't quite get to that level with people - or didn't think I could.  

That is the one really tremendous gift this relationship gave me - it taught me that I am capable of a love I never even knew existed let alone that I could actually feel it myself.  And it also means I was always capable.  To be perfectly honest, it hasn't been the best experience, overall... .I really don't know how normal people live like this.

All kidding aside, though, it is good to know I am capable.  It is the one thing that will always make me grateful for having loved my ex despite all it cost me.  In time, I may one day be able to have something healthy with someone.  And if I can find that kind of happiness a second time in my life, well, how much more grateful for that will I be?  I'm just far too raw, I think, to be willing to allow it for a while. And I'm not sure it would be fair to even try until the love I still have for my ex is less "present"... .if that makes sense.

[thisagain]

I don't think it was a lie. When she said she loved you and wanted to be with you, that is genuinely what she felt in that moment. The problem is just that with the disorder, how she feels and what she wants can change in the blink of an eye. When she swings between adoring and detesting, both of those are real feelings for her at that time.

Plus your experience of loving her, and experiencing physical and emotional closeness with the same person, was real. With a non-BPD partner it might be less intense, in that the highs maybe aren't as high but there is much more stability. Do you think you might be open to that?

As for the possibility of recovery etc, there are people on here who have generally happy relationships with pwBPD. Usually that happens when both partners are actively working on their own issues and improving the relationship. The non-BPD partner often still has to do a lot of sacrificing. A lot of us don't feel like we can or should make those sacrifices because of our own emotional issues and needs. It sounds like you have a solid understanding of the challenges you'd face, which is great.

Do you know if your ex is in any treatment? Are you planning to maintain any contact with her to see if she does?

[eprogeny]

I don't think it was a lie. When she said she loved you and wanted to be with you, that is genuinely what she felt in that moment. The problem is just that with the disorder, how she feels and what she wants can change in the blink of an eye. When she swings between adoring and detesting, both of those are real feelings for her at that time.

The problem is, when she said she loved me it came with her saying how much she didn't want to be with me. That it was too hard.  And she nearly had a nervous breakdown the whole time she was trying to say it. 

It didn't change her actions though.  She steered the ship right onto the rocks and ran from it as fast as she could - until she needed me for something in her life again.  And the whole time I was left with a gigantic What the heck? sign hanging over my head.  It took years to learn from her just how much she hated how she felt about me and how that led to her behaviors toward me.  And for some odd reason, I can't really comprehend right now why I even allowed it to go on after the first times hurt me.  Weird.

Plus your experience of loving her, and experiencing physical and emotional closeness with the same person, was real. With a non-BPD partner it might be less intense, in that the highs maybe aren't as high but there is much more stability. Do you think you might be open to that?

I don't know.  I've never experienced what you're describing.  I don't know that what I had with my ex was "high" or not, but I do assume it was - based on what I've read.  However, I don't have anything else to really compare it to.  I haven't had a mutually loving relationship before so I don't know what the "norm" is.

I can only think that it would be exactly the kind of relationship that I thought my ex and I were going to have.  I know what I don't want, and that's really all I know for sure right now.

As for the possibility of recovery etc, there are people on here who have generally happy relationships with pwBPD. Usually that happens when both partners are actively working on their own issues and improving the relationship. The non-BPD partner often still has to do a lot of sacrificing. A lot of us don't feel like we can or should make those sacrifices because of our own emotional issues and needs. It sounds like you have a solid understanding of the challenges you'd face, which is great.

It is good to know there are people here who have had so much success.  It truly gives me hope that she will find that same sort of treatment.  And, maybe, if she does that then we will be able to have some part in each other's lives again.  That would be nice.  And, yes, I am comfortable sacrificing for the right reasons.  And that's where I'm hesitant when it comes to the recovery.  What I won't do is sacrifice for someone who sees me as someone to use.  In fact, I've never allowed that sort of thing in my life before so finding out so recently that I allowed it for so long with my ex has really thrown me.  It completely was invisible to me until recently, and I really can't quite wrap my brain around it. 

Do you know if your ex is in any treatment? Are you planning to maintain any contact with her to see if she does?

She's only had general counseling.  I've talked with her for a long time about therapy, and helped her make an appointment in the past.  When she failed to keep it, I stopped being involved with that area of her life. 

She did recently make a new appointment, though, so maybe she'll actually go.  But I'm not confident she will.  She feels a lot of shame, and tends to gloss over her real issues with professionals, and to be perfectly honest, I think she's far too afraid of working her ass off in therapy only to be one of those who never gets better.  As that's a very real possibility, there's really no way to know if she'll go or commit herself to the work that needs to be done. 

[patientandclear]

How did you come to perceive that she was using you?

[eprogeny]

How did you come to perceive that she was using you?

While I should have come to the realization much sooner, there was an undeniable moment for me earlier this year that I've spent a lot of time trying to comprehend.  The short of it, she began some sort of a new "something" with someone - but kept asking me not to let go of "us"... .and then she called me up one day and was very much the old her from our early days... .then asked me to buy her a ticket so she could visit me.  I thought maybe she meant it, and that maybe this would be a new beginning, but it turned out what she wanted was to due her obligation of "visiting" me by staying one day before taking off to spend the rest of her time in another state with that girl she was just starting to see.

That event along with other requests to meet her financial, emotional, and even physical needs was simultaneous been presented right alongside being disregarded or forgotten by her.  So, yeah, it's been clear for a long while that she's been using me.  I was just too blind to understand that her own blindness to the behavior was a good reason to forgive her.  That her BPD behavior wasn't her fault, therefore I couldn't hold her accountable to the consequences... .or so I had reasoned.

To this day she doesn't see any of it as having been true unless I list it off all the offenses during an argument - she then says "well when you say it like that" and apologizes... .which tells me she probably doesn't actually realize anything but just says she does.  It certainly never changes anything.  

Funny, but not so funny, thing is... .that same girl she wanted me to pay for her to visit, the one she denied was a romantic interest... .is currently visiting her for a few weeks and they're sleeping together.  She even took 2 full weeks of vacation to spend with her - but not in all the years we were together, and all the times I spent with her did she ever take even a single hour off of work to spend with me.  

Learning about this visit and her behavior differences yesterday, revealed a lot of truths.  They were hard truths and they came with some hard emotions - and even harder words.  And that's when I finally came to realize I just cannot justify remaining in contact with her.  Because, the honest to god truth is - she really has no idea why any of it is wrong, why it hurts me, or why I would insist that I'm not nearly the "important", "valuable", or "worthwhile" person that she insists she "cares so much about".

I just can't rationalize it away anymore, and I cannot be a part of her life or let her be a part of mine unless she gets the help she needs to be able to comprehend what it is she does.  In the meantime, I'm focusing on why it is that I allowed so much of it for so long.  It's been painful all around.

[patientandclear]

Wow, I have so been there. I reached that conclusion 2.5 years ago and stepped away. Horrible feeling. I hadn't realized till reading what you wrote here that a component of the confusing dynamic and why it was so hard for me to see, is that he doesn't see it as a problem. He sees what we do as great! He has told me what the deal is so there is no problem--if I continue to engage it's on me. Not untrue.

In our case this guy overtly offers every once in a while to make whatever changes I need so I'll stay in his life--which is also confusing--a few times it's been clear he and I were not on the same page and he was just trying to figure out what to say to get me to say yes, but in my most recent encounter, he seemed genuinely also to want to try to do the real thing, a committed relationship with me. The attempt didn't last more than a short time (incidentally I've concluded that for him, as for you, it's combining physical and emotional closeness that is kryptonite, as well as his continued appetite for the highs of the initial stages love affairs). Hurts.

That feeling of being used while someone is telling you you are the most important person etc., AND when you know that is actually true (in the sense that you are the sustained and non-disposable connection, you actually know them and like the actual person, not the seduction act), and when they are also the most important person to you but for you that yields very different things than it does for them ... .So tough. I feel like I am the Brussels sprouts in his life and he prefers cake and Brussells sprouts, but if required to choose one, will go with cake every time. While I know that's an ultimately wasteful and detrimental choice--but one that is his to make.

Breaking away from that is such an important step in affirming our own value. I haven't seen this specific dynamic on these boards often, so really appreciate you posting about it.

When you say it took you a few years for her to explain how much she hates how she feels about you--how did she explain that? That sounds illuminating.

[patientandclear]

I should add: you no doubt are that important or valuable to her. Like Brussels sprouts are valuable to someone on an otherwise all-cake diet. As a friend of mine observed about my r/ship -- it's great to have a loving historian in her life, someone who knows her and still loves her, someone consistent. It probably makes her feel great! If she was going to pick one most important person over time, it would probably be you.

I came to feel like the operating system in my person's life. Very important! When I'm around he seems able to seize the day in other aspects--girlfriends, work, new experiences. I make him feel much better about himself, it seems. When I'm gone it's not as good for him.

For a long time I confused this sort of "importance" as the next thing to true love, and thought it could evolve. (Especially when he's telling me it might.)  And it's confusing because it IS good. We're great together. Yet he is bound and determined to also have cake.

So the point is--not sure you have to dismiss how important you are to her, to focus on the fact that the importance is asymmetrical btwn you, that in fact you are being used, and it is always going to feel bad to you unless you can and want to reconcile yourself to being someone's operating system. When I feel true love for the person, I've found that accepting that role is very damaging. I really commend you for the step you've just taken. I'm sure she will eventually resist it and try to retrieve what you do for her ... .

[eprogeny]

he doesn't see it as a problem. He sees what we do as great! He has told me what the deal is so there is no problem--if I continue to engage it's on me. Not untrue.

For me it has been a slightly different thing.  She agrees it is a problem if I'm being used - but does not see what she does as using me.  LOL

In our case this guy overtly offers every once in a while to make whatever changes I need so I'll stay in his life--which is also confusing--a few times it's been clear he and I were not on the same page and he was just trying to figure out what to say to get me to say yes, but in my most recent encounter, he seemed genuinely also to want to try to do the real thing, a committed relationship with me. The attempt didn't last more than a short time (incidentally I've concluded that for him, as for you, it's combining physical and emotional closeness that is kryptonite, as well as his continued appetite for the highs of the initial stages love affairs). Hurts.

Ugh. Been there and done that a thousand times with my ex.  Each time I wanted to believe her so much, that I would make the effort.  And each time it just cycled back to the same pile of garbage.  The cycles became shorter, because my tolerance lessened, and eventually I just called her on her BS.  When the whole thing was just a pointless endeavor to me, I began my first steps toward walking away.  It was super effective, too, *eye roll* because that walking away happened umpteen times before I finally did hit the end of my rope.

That feeling of being used while someone is telling you you are the most important person etc., AND when you know that is actually true (in the sense that you are the sustained and non-disposable connection, you actually know them and like the actual person, not the seduction act), and when they are also the most important person to you but for you that yields very different things than it does for them ... .So tough. I feel like I am the Brussels sprouts in his life and he prefers cake and Brussells sprouts, but if required to choose one, will go with cake every time. While I know that's an ultimately wasteful and detrimental choice--but one that is his to make.

I have literally said to her that she will always choose anyone else's well-being over mine.  She might truly care for and about me, but given a choice between what will spare me from being hurt over sparing someone she says is literally nothing to her - she chooses the other person to spare.  I am always the one, besides herself, who pays the price for her disorder.

I have come to understand this is because of a really messed up perspective she has... .because she is compelled to put on a front for so many people at all times, she does not feel that putting energy into the person for whom no front is required is a necessary thing.  In other words, I'm a solid and dependable presence in her life, so she's not driven by the fear of losing me - ergo, all her energy and "consideration", her show of "value" goes elsewhere... .right up until I'm so fed up that I'm done.  And then the waterworks come out and the apologies, and she's begging me to give her another chance to try.  Right around then the Yoda in me comes out and I simply say there is no try, there is only do.    And for a short time she does; until she's confident that the absolute minimum she's giving me is enough.  But, of course, it never is.  

Breaking away from that is such an important step in affirming our own value. I haven't seen this specific dynamic on these boards often, so really appreciate you posting about it.

Thank you for asking about it.  I've appreciated being able to delve into this with someone and put to words the things I've only felt for so long.  It's nice to be able to say it all, see it all, and have it affirmed.

I have to wonder if your BPD was like mine in the sense of being non-rageful?  Something tells me that if the rage aspect were involved, it would be a lot easier and faster for us to realize the level of use and misuse.  I can definitely state that if my ex had ever done the walk-on-eggshells or you get the explosive rage thing at me I'd have walked the second it happened.  

Instead of that very direct level of dysfunction, mine was more benign, and that made it far more difficult to even see the reality let alone realize the detrimental effect it had.  That the benigns are so convincing, probably because they are speaking their truth, makes it almost impossible to see there is an overriding opposite reality taking place.    

When you say it took you a few years for her to explain how much she hates how she feels about you--how did she explain that? That sounds illuminating.

She had tried to explain it to me before, but it wasn't until my therapist suggested that my ex might have BPD - and explained what that does and doesn't mean about the behaviors and how they can be so opposite and therefore impossible to navigate without professional help, that I had a way to not take everything so personally.  I did a lot of reading after that, and I came to the conclusion that my therapist is ridiculously amazing. :D   I didn't really even know there was a condition called BPD at the time - but we walked through it enough that it gave me a lot of things to realize.  

Once I had that information, the next time I talked with my ex and listened her try to describe how she never knew how she felt and that her feelings weren't consistent - I was able to understand that she didn't mean those words in the same way you or I might mean them.  I asked a few questions about it, to make sure what I was hearing was not being filtered by any assumptions of normalcy on my part, and when she felt safe that she wasn't "saying the wrong thing" and that I was asking and listening not to blame her but to understand her and to, in effect, give her a way to not be "at fault" for being a "bad person", then she seemed to feel safe enough she began to describe how it felt for her - and I voiced my absolute empathy and incredulity of how difficult that had to be for her.  And then I told her how much I now realized she was trying in the face of something impossible and that any failure I thought happened was still far more success than I think I could have in the same circumstance.  I still think that's true, by the way.  I don't know how BPDs keep going.  I can't even imagine it.

Anyway, what you may find interesting is that what she described was, in my mind, the exact normal set of emotions everyone feels when it comes to love - with the difference being that it sounded like she was feeling a year's worth of ups and downs in the span of days and hours.  Like she had a 1 year relationship with me in the span of a week or something.  She was miles ahead of where I could have or would have been in every aspect of our years long relationship - so for me it was always some out of left field What the heck insanity happening before I would even know something was amiss.

Analogy-wise... .it is like the whole world is playing their lives as an LP on 33 speed at a relaxing volume for a few hours a day, but hers is at 45 and at full volume 24x7.  She is on a constant cycle of extreme highs and lows that she can't slow down and can't process.  Ever.  And somehow she's expected to function that way.

I'm definitely the opposite. I have a problem with being overly logical and far too compartmentalized.  I never make the emotional decision unless it is the same one as the logical.  And whereas I have difficulty parsing my emotions because I have to spend time analyzing them due to being so compartmentalized, my ex can't tell what emotion she's feeling because she's feeling them all too quickly - and then she's reacting to the strongest ones she feels even though she doesn't know what it is she's feeling.  And her actions, almost always, are in the right "family" of emotions based on instinct just not the right one for what she wanted.

That is to say, if she feels vulnerable then she reacts with a fear response like the average person does, and then ends up running away and shutting down to the person with whom she felt that vulnerability.  The average person, however, might override that fear response to choose a behavior like talking it through with the person, and trusting in them to help with the difficulty, or writing a letter to explain, or any of the other responses that would relieve fear without causing the other person harm or without damaging the relationship.  My ex cannot see those other options as options - and even if she could, she wouldn't be able to choose them because the only choice she can make is the immediate instinctual one - the one that almost never is the "adult" or "mature" choice.  It's a scorched-earth policy rather than measured response when it comes to alleviating her chaotic feelings.

She is incapable of choosing the more logical path if there is any BPD emotion at play.  She literally said she cannot "see" the logical path when her emotions are spiking.  And that is so hard to wrap my head around because I am the exact opposite.  My default is the logical path.  Always.  When emotion and logic are at odds, I choose the logic - because I know emotions cannot be trusted to make the "best" choice and I made a decision in my childhood to never be the irrational crazy person that I saw modeled for me.  It's too destructive. I am quite sure that was something that appealed to her about me, now that I think about it.

And it confuses her - and causes her shame - that I can point out the action she takes and trace it back to the emotion that sparked it, but she cannot.  And she cannot, therefore, understand why her choices never work out for her the way she thought they would, and why it is hard for her to see that her choices are entirely self-motivated and are never in the best interests of anyone else.  

The only time I ever saw her slow anything down long enough to make a considered choice was when she was still in the very fist stage of ideation with me.  It may have been an act, I don't know, but in all the years I'd known her it was the most controlled and capable I'd ever seen her be.  Since the first day she devalued me she's never been able to navigate her life the way she wants to - and there's nothing I can do or say that seems to help.  

I hope that novel covered what you were asking about... .kind of got carried away!