Vindication, or Just a Mess?

[Grey Kitty]

My friend's story was just a warning--even with the best of intentions on both sides and lots of improvement on both sides, your ex moving back in, even temporarily looks like a disaster. (If you can't stop yourself, set her up someplace and pay for it instead! Trust me, it will be cheaper in the long run.)

Turkish, back away from helping your ex. She's made a mess. You have been given a golden ticket to become a drama triangle rescuer. You don't want that.

The idea of supporting her, while staying out of that is attractive... .but very difficult, and the more you do and the closer she gets, the closer to impossible it becomes.

Think about what you would do for a friend who told you she was in an abusive marriage (and acknowledged that she behaved badly as well). Or a member her telling the same sort of story; I'm sure you've seen a few of those!

Offering a hug and some validation would be totally right, if there wasn't a risk of her trying to recycle/etc. As it was, I wouldn't call it the wrong thing, but I gotta say it is putting your stability and peace of mind at risk, especially if she paints you white and tries to latch onto you.

I said that if it were viewed that they were in danger and I didn't take action,  the kids might end up in foster care while we were both evaluated.

You have an obligation to protect your kids. You are involved, and need to be.

Involving CPS or police is a serious step, and could blow up at you. As you said, having the kids removed to foster care would not be an ideal solution! Talk to a lawyer, so you know what your threshold of taking drastic action has to be, and what actions you should take, and look for clean, hard boundaries.

Consider posting here on the legal board about this too. Make sure you understand the risks SOON. This situation sounds very likely to escalate, perhaps to the point where you do have to act.

[Turkish]

Just to clarify, there's no way she's coming back into my home. She's choosing not to go back to her parents (and I kind of agree with her reasons).

[Turkish]

Good triangulation or bad triangulation?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

My ex tells me things because she says "I have a right to know what's going on." Objectively,  no.  Is my boundary whether to listen or engage or not.  She's stating she's the persecutor to him,  while subtly indicating she's a victim,  and also casting herself as her own Persecutor ("I can't control myself".

I'm thinking back to what an ex Navy SEAL and Vietnam vet taught me whenI was 18) "Never volunteer information." I sure wouldn't if the situation were reversed. 

It's a good idea to talk to someone regarding at what threshold I should take action.  My T just raised his rates to $200/hr (he hasn't charged me this yet.  I'm a volume customer). I think he's preparing to retire.

[KateCat]

Is your ex seeing a therapist/counselor at this time? (I could be wrong, but I see you mainly needing yours at this moment for the very specific purpose of threading your way through your feelings at this time of crisis for others in your life. Not because you need to take actions. . . . Maybe you can ask even ask him point blank, ":)o I need help to make sure I don't take action?"

Your ex does have actions of consequence to take. Even a person without her difficulties could use the type of help that a counselor or social worker can provide. But to ask for guidance from the man she betrayed . . . Ugh. A mess, even if it is a type of vindication for him.

[Fie]

Hello Turkish,

I have been following your story for a while and I'm empathizing.
Good on you that you are seeing you don't want to live again with your ex.

Do you think it's a wise idea to listen to all of her stories ?

xx

[Grey Kitty]

Good triangulation or bad triangulation?

Your ex will try to yank you into the unhealthy version.

I'd recommend validating what you can... .biting your tongue 'till it bleeds to stop yourself from offering any good advice... .and maintaining whatever distance, both emotional and physical you need to keep yourself safe from her drama.

You may need to shut down the oversharing. Can you do it in a way that makes it all about yourself, and not about her? That really is your reason, right? That you will become a mess yourself if you go to far into this... .

[valet]

Good triangulation or bad triangulation?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

I'm not so sure that this is an ideal (or even somewhat applicable) situation to take advantage of the 'good' triangulation triangle modes. It seems like the ship is sinking on her end, and with your status as father of her children, you're going to go down with her unless you make sure you don't.

I think that means that I'm in agreement with Grey Kitty. Any involvement that can't be resolved quickly from a legal perspective should be avoided. This means coaching her and him, regardless of your intentions. I know that this is complicated and no one here really has the right to tell you to bail as best as you can while still supporting the kids. That said, and you've been very focused so far, I still wouldn't want to dwell any closer. The whole thing sounds like a ticking time bomb. She's not making any moves to change things, and neither is her H.

Does she have a safety plan? Does he? How are you documenting all of this?

[Turkish]

Her younger sister invited me over to the family's house for thanksgiving.  I gave up the kids two years ago because I had no other options that day (I did event security for a homeless outreach downtown,  and did the same last year). This year it will be the kids and I, 3 of us.  I politely declined the invite.  I could be there if I wanted,  and am able now to interact with my ex for more than a few minutes without major anxiety,  but I really don't want to be there.  The family seems to have forgiven me for calling the cops on the uncle who may have molested  D4 1.5 years ago (my T told me they'd get over it,  but I didn't believe him), but un charged uncle will be there (another reason why my ex doesn't want to move back on there,  even if our daughter is safe otherwise due to the boundaries we've drawn).

So I've bought a turkey portion,  some ham, vegetables,  potatoes and stuffing mix.  I'll be eating most of it for 3 days,  the kids being picky.  I do kind of want to go over there,  and it's not because I'm lazy.  Cooking is no big deal to me,  even if my little imps will pick at it. 

We have another appointment with D4's counselor in a week.  I read thinking of contacting her myself,  but I'm going to encourage my ex to tell the T her plan.  She did admit to the T the first incidence of her battery. Even though I felt my Ex was somewhat ambivalent about executing her plan to leave,  her words,  "I don't think I can control myself around him" telegraph to me that she won't or is incapable. She could have an epiphany, but... .who am I kidding.  They're both stuck. The kids mention him more positively lately,  which sucks if we have to explain his eventual absence. I'm sure she won't explain it right. 

How am I documenting? I haven't been.  Maybe I need to go back through my text logs this weekend and back date a planner or journal. 

[KateCat]

I think you're doing important work in side-stepping your ex and her family. And it's a rough time to be doing this.

You saw this far into the future (ex and affair-partner / husband breakup). Can you see farther still into the future? What is your ex's history with men? Is she ever alone for a long period? Will a new guy show up soon after the old one departs? Is there any chance he will bring stability to your ex? And, frankly, the income one just has to have to live in your neck of the woods?

A couple of years ago when you were looking into your crystal ball, didn't you speculate that you'd feel much better about your ex's household and her partner when it was no longer the "affair partner" she was with? I mean, this guy had to go, didn't he? Because betrayal does lead to this. And when he went, things had to get really tough for a while, as they are now.

I hope there are better Thanksgivings ahead for you and the kids. But maybe even this one can be good. That "thriving" idea, it's an intriguing one.

[Turkish]

A couple of years ago when you were looking into your crystal ball, didn't you speculate that you'd feel much better about your ex's household and her partner when it was no longer the "affair partner" she was with? I mean, this guy had to go, didn't he? Because betrayal does lead to this. And when he went, things had to get really tough for a while, as they are now.

I definitely thought that, but he's a known quantity.  My ex was with a brief bf she wasn't in love with a year before me (she ended up getting an RO on him... .I found a copy of it last month when I was doing deep cleaning in the hall closet), and The One she told me she still wasn't over before him,  which she told me about.  Before him,  she was in high school,  and only one other guy, so not a long history.

When I met her,  she was in hermit mode.  She even described herself as a hermit. I think that she'll go into hermit mode for a while after this one.  She's self aware enough to know how royally she's messed this up.  Like my T said two years ago,  "she trusts you enough to ask for advice,  but don't over do it." My advice would be,  "keep the next one away from the children for 6-8 months,  better a year until you're sure," but it's likely to be shaming. I'll deal with it add it comes. 

She's chopped her hair.  Dyed it from black to blonde. She looks very different than a year ago.  I showed a buddy at work today.  He said she doesn't look good,  but old.  I haven't talked to her other than a few brief texts about school.  I'm going to take this one day at a time,  all the while anxious about how it may go of I need to involve the authorities.  I get the kids tomorrow.  My first Thanksgiving alone with them.  I'll focus on us. 

[Turkish]

Saw her yesterday at a school function. Her update is that she secured another apartment and is moving at the end of the month (I'll have the kids during this time). Same complex, which is good for the kids. Her H doesn't want to because he says that this isn't how married couples live (here I'm reminded of my T's observation that he's engaging in spouse--- and I could say "marriage"--- worship). I agree with my T's observation and thought something along those lines myself before he mentioned it.

I told her that sometimes couples can take a therapeutic separation and it helps. He's going to rent a room somewhere else. She said he's still going to therapy and has been sharing with her his therapy journals. I didn't comment on that, as I wouldn't. He's still putting himself in a one-down position. It was a short conversation and I said that it sounded like she has taken steps to keep the kids safe, which is my concern. She said that the kids really like [H's name]. She's considering the implications of leaving, yet again, on the kids this time, unlike when she left me. Then she told me an interesting story.

I don't think her H was there, but she couldn't find something of hers and started saying that her H took it. S6 was there and said, "Mommy, it isn't nice to accuse someone of doing something they may not have done [I think he got this from me]. Besides, even if he did, he still loves you." That caused her to pause and she realized that S6 was right. Again, I resisted commenting, when what I really wanted to say was that it was pretty sad that a 6 year old has a more developed sense of empathy than a person three decades older. She then looked away and said, "A lot of this is me. I realize that I have a lot of work to do, that I have issues," or something to that effect.

So, it looks like crisis averted for now. Maybe that's their marriage for a while. He's giving her more money now, which is helpful to keep her from being stressed (honestly, I'd be stressed, too... .this is a young new college grad who seems "here and there", not someone who's been laid off of otherwise fallen on hard times). All in all, I sensed a load of stress relieved on her side. I still didn't see her wearing her wedding ring, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I'll probably see the H next in a few months at the next birthday party. We shall see what the new year brings.

[joeramabeme]

Hey Turkish
I read the entire thread and just wanted to say that I think you are doing an amazing job handling yourself and the welfare of your children.

Keep us posted and I am sending good thoughts to you.  In some weird way all that we put out there comes back to us and I think all your efforts will come back to you through the love of your children now and more so when they are old enough to recognize the selfless-love that you have given.

[Turkish]

I wish it were over.  I can handle a mother (my Ex) diagnosed with depression and anxiety,  who also had BPD traits.  It's all this other stuff,  however.  

She just called me.  I knew it was important because the kids were long asleep by now. She's three weeks from moving out,  her H renting a room somewhere.  The conflict isn't ending. The kids weren't witness, but they got into another argument and she threw her shoe at him.  In a way,  this is funny,  because throwing shoes is a Mexican Mom way of dealing with things.  Nevermind that is battery.  I've seen the memes.

She said that he is now recording her verbal abuse. He is as well and he told her.  I pointed out that this was illegal in our state,  though it might be useful if the cops were called.  

She said that he told her that he's recording her and that he could take the kids from her due to her abuse. I said that's an empty threat as he has no legal standing there,  and that would be an Amber Alert if he tried.  

Unfortunately,  he arrived home as she was on the phone with me.  I again said that it would be better if the kids were with me at nights,  and she could bring them to me late.  She said he's not a danger to the kids.  I agree,  overtly. But I pointed out that he threatened to take them.  

I briefly talked to her that he was all about him,  looking good,  and that losing what he thought of as the trophy wife and kids is likely triggering him.  He's getting desperate, and that's concerning.  Several older women (60s) in my life have said,  "she needs to lay off.  She's triggering him!" Though that's true, he's the stronger partner by far, and is thus more the physical danger.  

Before he got there,  she was complaining about him cooking and not cleaning up after himself and she getting frustrated about getting home from work with kind and having to clean.  Really? Focus on the pettiness, and escalate drama.  I'll see her Friday evening,  maybe.  I'll talk to her again about the kids staying with me at night until she's moved out and separated.

[Grey Kitty]

Ugh. Tough for her. Tough for her H. And scary for you 'cuz something could happen to your kids, or they could see something.

Would she be receptive to a few tips that might help her de-escalate things with him?

You've certainly learned a few things 'round here!

[Turkish]

I've told her and told her.  She says she can't control herself, which contradicts the Duluth Model of DV which says that violence is a choice, but that's a whole other subject.  I get the kids this weekend and will see her friday morning at school.  I'll talk to get again.  I may need to be harsher. 

[Grey Kitty]

You know, it isn't your job to fix her or save her... .you know at what point you have to act to protect your kids, and anything short of that you don't have to do.

So I'm not surprised that she "can't" do better. Ya know, if she could, you would probably still be with her.

[Mutt]

I may need to be harsher. 

I don't know, she's triggering him, he's probably triggering her, she's likely not going to be at her baseline. It's not worth the chance of getting split black, although you know her better than anyone on the boards.