To what extent is it the disorder, and to what extent just a horrible person?

[boatman]

I guess it doesn't really matter in this context, because the driver is that they don't know their actions are wrong, and the consequence is the same whether they can "control it" or not.

Who doesn't know their actions are wrong? My ex most certainly did, the person that sexually and physically abused me did, my father did when he cut me off... .I could go on and on. Research has been done with kids on this. For example, third graders were told to go take a pencil from a classmate without asking and did it. Many of the students protested saying that it was wrong, but the researcher assured them it was ok in this one instance. The same students were then told to go push a classmate out a second story window, and not one of them would do it. They all stated that it was wrong no matter what.

I've read countless stories on this website of people being abused and victimized that make being thrown out a window look like a minor incident. Third graders know right from wrong and can control their actions, but pwBPD don't/can't? I don't buy it.

[myself]

For the person I'm speaking of, there were times she could control herself and chose not to. Times she could control herself, and did (although often holding it in until releasing it later). And times she definitely seemed unable to control herself at all. With barely a few % of the situations ever being apologized for, or with her seriously and honestly taking responsibility for what occurred, learning from her 'mistakes' and changing her ways, or... .

If by 'survival' you mean covering up for her negative and impulsive actions and fears, OK. In no specific order: Lie, deny, project, disappear... .At no time was she (or many if not most of the pwBPD/traits spoken of here) in actual danger by a relationship she was voluntarily part of. The disorder overwhelms, and yes 'they can't help it' comes into play. There is also a lot of intentional behavior though. It's not just one or the other, it's happening on a spectrum.

In my case, she did know it was 'wrong' because if it was anyone else acting that way she would have spoken up about it, been against it, etc, as she showed me many many times. No one should be victimized, fight for the underdog, and so on. As long as it wasn't about her own actions, that is. One of the most ":)o as I say not as I do" people I've ever known. Plus, she admitted to doing things I knew she did against me/us on purpose.

[RippedTorn]

I am convinced my exBPD did know what she did was wrong. In a book I found she wrote in during her prior marriage, she acknowledged that she hurt her husband, became angry when she shouldn't, etc. During our marriage, she sent me notes and texts admitting her controlling, jealousy, anger, etc. She even said I don't want to be the way I was. BUT when frightened by triggers, she could not control her behavior (which was an almost life long pattern). So she knew it was wrong but could not control her behavior. We let them off the hook by saying they were innocent because they just didn't know it was wrong. They know. But knowing doesn't fix it. Otherwise, they would not need years of therapy to self regulate.

[once removed]

good discussion. i think it serves to highlight the complexity behind the question.

can control, cant control, right from wrong aside - i think we should hold adults accountable for their actions. i think thats a healthy part of detaching. understanding is also a healthy part of detaching, but not the same as excusing or condoning.

lack of impulse control is tricky to live with and difficult for me to understand or relate to, but ive seen too many people that ive been close to lose all sense of logic, feelings become fact, and as a result they dig a deeper hole for themselves, if not for those around them. they dont so much know it at the time. they have some understanding afterward. they seemingly lack the capacity to change the pattern, and they do it again.

i dont like saying something as simple as "they lack control". they could become self aware, get into therapy, change the patterns, as others have. i do know that for them, "control" is seriously inhibited, and there are a number of psychological obstacles to get from point A to point B. its sad, and its complex to understand. on the flip side, to absolve them of any responsibility or accountability would be to enable.

survival and right from wrong: disordered thought leads to making "right" of wrong. its not the same thing as an insanity defense in a legal sense - i think what we are talking about is more complex. throw in the sorts of destructive family dynamics often seen (not always), seeds planted very early in the lives of our exes, and this too may lead to a disordered sense of right and wrong.

its not black and white. its not either or, and as  myself  said, the things we are discussing are unique to the individual and on a spectrum. to say that a borderline is incapable of intentionally hurting another person - something we are all capable of and most of us have done - would be to deny them of their humanity. understanding, not excusing or condoning, informs detachment, and in my experience, helps depersonalize the wounds. it also helped me to see my own role (and by role i dont mean mistakes made or actions i regret, but the part i played) in the destructive relationship dynamics more clearly.