Accused on an almost daily basis of affairs, lies and infidelity

[La Carotte]

A week ago I let her in.

After everything.

She explained, she begged, she reasoned, she promised, she showed remarkable understanding and insight. And I fell for it.

I didn't relent on going back with her but we made an agreement about seeing each other a couple times a week, just for walks, which we like, made rules for use of text and phone to avoid the usual pitfalls,  and I made it very clear what I was and wasn't prepared to accept (ie verbal abuse and accusations) and said that if we could do that for three months to prove that we could then we'd have made a huge and essential step towards a decent relationship for us both.

And I felt strong and convinced I / she / we could do this.

And of course it was never going to work.

It lasted a day until she disregulated and then since then it's been the usual horrible life sapping awfulness, ending with me in full on obsessive rescue mode and ST from her.

Except it's worse. Because I haven't told anyone that we've been back in touch, I'm too ashamed. I couldn't bear to come here and admit it becasue I feel such a failure and so stupid. So everyone thinks I'm fine and I am so far from fine. I'm a complete mess

[Jonathan Ricciardi]

Keep your head up.  Ex knows that you are and will always be there.  I don't ever recommend no contact, but give her space.  A lot of space, maybe weeks, months or even years.  I have waited 3 years and continue to wait for contact from her, I've accepted she isn't coming back.  She hates me. Though hate takes energy.  I would recommend that you tell her exactly how you feel, no matter how much it hurts, I mean tell her everything she did wrong.  That is what she is planning, you my friend are headed for a stonewalling.

[once removed]

finallyitstime, this is a place where you have nothing to be ashamed of. we wont judge you, and i assure you youre not the first to give things another go. theres no shame in that. it sounds like you were pretty careful, too.

would you like to share more about how youre feeling about all this? we are here to help.

[La Carotte]

Thank you, once removed, I do appreciate that.

I suppose more than anything I feel disappointed, with her for not being able to stick with it, with myself for believing that if we put a plan in place it would work, and with myself for thinking I was strong enough to not get blown away again, and with us both for not being able to do things differently. I know I tried, and I'm sure she did too,  but we just can't.

And I feel that if I'd stuck to it, I'd be a week further on. And i thought that a month ago, and six months ago, and a year ago. And saying that out loud makes me feel stupid and so angry with myself for keep letting her suck me back in. And I know I should block her, that is the only thing that gets us in contact, I never contact her or check social media or anything, and I do it for a short while and then I can t bear it, I obsess about whether she's trying to contact me. And so I unblock her and wait for her to text or call so I can delete it or not, answer it or not, depending on which part of the obsessive thoughts cycle Im in when it comes.

And all I really want? For it all to be okay

[Lucky Jim]

Hey F-I-T, Don't beat yourself up!  Most of us, including me, have recycled several times.  It's all part of the process of coming to grips with BPD.  Those w/BPD can be quite convincing, as you note:

She explained, she begged, she reasoned, she promised, she showed remarkable understanding and insight. And I fell for it.

In my view, they are experts at manipulation.  I'll say it again: Beware of the F-O-G.  Do what's right for you, I suggest.

LuckyJim

[once removed]

i agree with lucky jim, that its all part of the process. sometimes we arent done and we test the waters again, sometimes that reinforces our resolve. and for example, i wouldnt recommend it to everyone, but in my case, reading over old texts actually facilitated my detachment. the results can be positive here, no need to beat yourself up . detachment isnt a linear process.

having said that, theres a fine line between shaming yourself, and feeling fed up and angry with yourself because you feel youre not living your values. which side do you think your feelings might be leaning toward?

[La Carotte]

Thanks guys.

I've thought about the FOG a lot and I know that I'm in it. I think that's the main reason I can't bear not to reply whe she gets I touch and is clearly trying, it seems so mean.

once removed, I think one of the key things that's kept me hooked is that to NOT continue supporting her when I do believe she's trying,  feels like I'm going agains my values. I've been a special ed teacher for 25 years and it's what I do best- look for the good in someone's intentions, and celebrate and encourage them, even if what they're actually achieving is far from the mark. And I do genuinely believe she tries. When she's just being horrid and mean it's much easier for me to cut myself off and not be so affected.

The difference though, I do know, is that she is not my job. She's my partner. And I don't want to spend the rest of my life being told horrid things about myself. And I've got to the stage now where I reallly don't believe that things will ever change. Except when I do. And it's that which causes me frustration and shame- Im an intelligent woman and I know that if 99.9% of evidence suggests something then it's stupid to go with the 0.1%, and yet I keep doing that.

[khibomsis]

FIT, you can't help her. Until you get back your self-respect you are no good to anyone. How about trying baby steps? Pick a boundary, any boundary, and police it firmly. You will be helping her by giving her something definite to push against. But most of all you will be helping yourself by proving to yourself you can do it. You wouldn't allow your students to run the school. So don't let her run your relationship.  I have been following your story because it brings back old times - I've been there. Believe me, once I started setting boundaries she left me alone pretty quickly. I remember the day I had just buried the second friend in two months, both difficult painful cancer deaths, and I said 'I can't  caretake you right now". When gaslighting didn't work, she went NC and I was replaced within a month.Is that what you are afraid of? Do you think if you stop rescuing she won't love you any more?   

[La Carotte]

khibomsis, I'm so sorry to hear about your friends, that must have been a terrible time for you. Thank you for sharing your experience.

The short answer to your question is- YES! I've read everything, I know about the way pwBPD love and mirror, I know about codependency and trauma bonding, I've read Stop Caretaking... But yes, it feels so good to have someone "love" me so much, no matter how madly that's expressed, I've never had it in my life before and I like it. And yes, I'm scared that if I stop rescuing that she'll stop loving me. I cannot bear the thought of her with someone else. Or me with someone else. I'm cringing reading this because I know that the relationship is so messed up and so destructive and unhealthy, but I vowed to only be honest on here otherwise what's the point, and that is my sad truth.

I am putting boundaries in place, and remaining completely resolute, which is why things have got increasingly awful, because she expects me to back down by now and I'm not going to, even though that means Im likely to lose her. It's so hard because I'm doing it becasue I know on a head level that it's right to do, not because I want to. But I am doing it, and actually I feel quite proud of myself this weekend - she tried again and I was pleasant and kind but stuck 100% to my lines in the sand. I also explained how difficult it is for me when she gets in touch after a week or so because I want to believe her good intentions will come through this time and she did appear to understand, and says she won't be in touch again. We'll see.

[once removed]

The difference though, I do know, is that she is not my job.

you took the words right out of my mouth . a difficult lesson for me was that there are ways to love and support someone outside of rescuing, or even leading the proverbial horse to water. you probably know that intellectually too, but when i began to put it in practice, i found that that attitude really did/does align with my values. if i want to help/love/support someone, how can i best do that? my instincts arent always correct.

also important to remember is the old airplane oxygen mask analogy. we really have to see to ourselves before we are best able to help anyone else. you are entitled to emotional space. it is not cruel or wrong to take it, it can be best for all involved.

has someone in your life signaled or threatened to stop loving you if you stopped rescuing them?

[khibomsis]

Thanks F-I-T! My friends are at peace now and so am I. I always tell my spouse I would not have been ready for her if she had come along any sooner. They say you always are attracted to women who are like your mother  and it was being so broken that cured me of that habit for good     For this reason I do not regret my BPD relationship since the story had a happy ending. And so will yours. Good for you about the boundaries, keep setting them as you are able and behind the lines in the sand you will find a safe space that is your own. It seems that your are clear intellectually but struggle to allow yourself to feel. I wonder if all the drama doesn't hook you since it keeps you from spending time with yourself and your emotions?   

[La Carotte]

a difficult lesson for me was that there are ways to love and support someone outside of rescuing, or even leading the proverbial horse to water. you probably know that intellectually too, but when i began to put it in practice, i found that that attitude really did/does align with my values. if i want to help/love/support someone, how can i best do that? my instincts arent always correct.


has someone in your life signaled or threatened to stop loving you if you stopped rescuing them?

Two thought provoking things here, once removed, thank you.

Firstly, I know that the best way I can love her and support her is to stay out of her life. She can't cope with being in a relationship with someone  she feels so strongly about, it makes her feel out of control and so she has to behave in ways that she knows are awful, to regain control and power. She told me once that she felt like she was fighting for her life sometimes in relation to me, and she regularly believes that the only reason I stay with her is because I have some master plan to destroy her. Both completely mad things, she acknowledged that in the telling of them, but she still thinks them. And she has a chronic disease which is made much worse by stress and of course believing all the things she does about me, "fighting" with me all the time, feeling that I'm not there for her (which im often not because she's rejectd me but she doesn't see that, but I'm still not there when she's sick)... .All these things and so much more. So, in truth. The best way I can love and support her is stay away, and not let her keep hoping it will be fine because all the evidence suggests it won't.

The second thing... This is very hard for me. My mum was the best person in my world. I was quite young and such things weren't talked about but I know now that she clearly had major anxiety issues and was agoraphobic and I spent my life worrying about her and trying to make her life as easy and as good as possible. Not becuas she threatened to love me less if I didn't, or anything like that,she was lovely, but I knew she was unhappy and I just wanted her to be ok. My dad and my brothers existed in our world but it was us two who mattered really. (She'd been orphaned young and kind of grew up and discovered the world with me as I did, as a teenage and then a student) And then she died of cancer when I was early 20s, and abandoned me and my dad and brothers have been horrible ever since (dad not so much in recent years, but it's been a long time coming). So.  I'm sure there's that. But so what? How does that help me now?

[La Carotte]

khibomsis - your reply came as I was replying to once removed - interesting you mention mothers! Not sure what that's all about in my case but Im pretty sure it's something I need to look into. Don't relish it though, to be honest, am pretty scared of opening that particular well shut down box.

I think you're completely right about the drama stopping me spending time with myself and my emotions. I've thought this several times recently actually. I was in a bad place when she came along, stuff I should have dealt with and didn't, and my relarionship with her has helped me a lot in many ways- I'm physically healthier than in my adult life, for example- but I suppose I haven't dealt with that stuff still, was easier to get focussed on her. No excuses now... .

[once removed]

i think those things are a considerable "so what", finallyitstime . that had to have a tremendous and devastating impact on you  .

as to how it helps you: youve made an important connection here. awareness is a facilitator of change. it isnt change in and of itself, but it presents us with the opportunity. it does no help at all until we answer for ourselves what we do with this awareness and this opportunity.

[La Carotte]

[quote . it does no help at all until we answer for ourselves what we do with this awareness and this opportunity. [/quote]
Ok. But I've known this for some time now. And I have no idea what to do with this awareness and opportunity. I'm completely able to see it as an opportunity and in fact would love to think that this whole experience with ex would end up being the catalyst for me to sort that stuff out with my mum and with my completely messed up attitude towards relationships as an adult. But how do I even begin that? If I knew how to answer it for myself I would have done by now. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

[once removed]

when i say "opportunity" i am referring to the opportunity to break the cycle of rescuing, not putting yourself and your needs first, and practicing love from a distance. i dont mean that making the connection will heal your wounds (it wont), though seeing the silver lining is a healthy, positive, productive attitude.

you have begun it, though. you came here, and reached out for support. youve read books. youve made important connections. those are all concrete steps that take courage and effort. unfortunately i cannot give you concrete steps as to how to heal your grief as the answers tend to be unique to each of us. i also wont tell you exactly how to detach from your ex or not, that process is unique to each of us as well. i can offer support and advice, thoughts, and listen, though.

in terms of concrete steps around healing: did you make the call to your therapist? how did it go?

[khibomsis]

F-I-T, I am sorry to hear about the loss of your mother so young! And the rest of your family so distant, there seems to be so many things you lost with that death. Or never really had. I can only relate insofar as I have spent years grieving the mother I never had, my living uBPD mother is almost 80 and still going strong, one runs out of emotions really, and that is all that can be said about that.   

I personally would be wary of opening shut doors without support. There are repressed  memories from early childhood I have chosen not to recover even in therapy, I have made my peace with them, saying no doubt I had good reason not to remember.Once removed is absolutely right in suggesting that a concrete step you can take is counselling.From there you can decide what you will heal and what leave untouched.In the meantime a good tip from AlAnon is fake it till you make it. Taking one day at a time, even an hour at a time if you need to, will get you through while you make the space to feel. This board has made a huge difference to me, even just in feeling that I am not alone.  Does it help if I keep asking you how the boundaries are going?

[La Carotte]

I am finding the support I'm receiving here so very helpful. I felt ashamed and annoyed with myself and Im trying not to beat myself up so much. Thank you.

I had a session with the therapist I saw 10 months ago. She kind of disappeared after a few sessions, it was all a bit odd, but I liked her and so decided to make contact with her again and assume she had stuff going on. This was a big step for me actually as in the past, I would have taken it personally and never contacted her again.

Anyway, it was good to speak to her, she works with a number of people with BPD so gets it. And what was great for me was that she said that although the situation and th issues that I was telling her about were exactly the same 10 months on, she felt I was very different and in a much healthier place. Unfortunately she was just about to go abroad for a month, so I've not seen her since, but I'm looking forward to her return.

In the meantime, yes, I've stuck to my boundaries. She broke one yesterday and came to my house. I didnt let her in. This was a first for me, not sure who was the most shocked! As things stand, we're never going to be in touch ever again... .For the millionth time. I'm in the part of the process where I'm enjoying the space, have said all I need to say, and am hoping she'll stay away. Maybe this time she will. She says she will this time!

On a side note, I have felt terribly anxious today. Scared. With a feeling of foreboding. I unblocked her on FB and phone as I know that being blocked makes her furious and I just felt like I didn't want to antagonise her. Really, at the moment all I want is to get through the next week without any contact, none at all. The idea of that seems so lovely, I'm so exhausted with it all.

Khibomsis, your words, "one runs out of emotions really, and that is all that can be said about that" is my favourite thing I've read today. Yes. That is exactly it. Exactly.

[Lucky Jim]

I unblocked her on FB and phone as I know that being blocked makes her furious and I just felt like I didn't want to antagonise her.

Hey F-I-T, I understand that you don't want to pull on the tiger's tale for fear of getting eaten.  On the other hand, why are you worried about her emotions?  Her feelings are her issue, I suggest, not yours.  It's hard to get out of the habit, I know, but I encourage you to be authentic and do what is right for you.  Took me a long time to learn how to let go when it comes to other's problems.

LuckyJim

[La Carotte]

Hi Lucky Jim

It was more that yesterday I got myself into a panic of fear about what she might do to cause trouble for me if I upset her. I believe she's perfectly capable of false allegations, has already told people before of what an abuser I am, all my many affairs etc etc and is very credible, we work in the same area and she's good friends with my boss, and I'd read on here of people's terrible stories of vindictive exes, so got myself a bit worked up. I know she absolutely hates it when I block her so decided the best thing to do was just lie low, which is what I'm doing, and I've not heard from her, so that's ok.

Even though this was based on nothing that she'd said or done recently, and was completely me doing it to myself, it did give me a bit of a shot across the bows- you really shouldn't be frightened because you know that the person you love has no boundaries, should you?

[Lucky Jim]

OK, now I get it.  This was sort of a "preemptive strike" to avert potential problems with your boss, right?  Agree, in a normal r/s one shouldn't be frightened by one's SO, but those w/BPD operate in the realm of F-O-G, so it's natural for you to have fearful feelings.  Just beware of any potential attempts at manipulation, if she decides that a recycle is her goal.

LJ

[khibomsis]

yes, F-I-T this is a good board, recovering co-dependents helping each other    it inspired me to be the change I want to see so set one -actually two  boundaries of my own. Baby steps. And immediately like you felt a wave of anxiety. Pretty shortly realized that this a deep primal childhood fear of the punishment which awaits my temerity in daring to have  a self. So I practiced self care until the panic went away, once one names it it can be dealt with.All quiet today from my BPD FOO and there it was: silence I could hear myself think in. How about you? Are you feeling better what with  the stand you took on your doorstep ?

[La Carotte]

Honestly, khibomsis ? Ive spent since then veering between being glad that I stood up for something that was important to me, and feeling terrible and regretting it, and thinking that I'm daft for making it into something important when of course she's going to be upset if I don't want her to come into my house, who wouldn't, and this is all my fault for not being tolerant enough. And then the little voice says, "FIT, where is the line between tolerant and abused doormat who is not respected?" And then the louder voice says, " But if you just tried a bit harder... ."

And then I pour a glass of wine or two to shut them up, and cry some and imagine how lonely I'm going to be for the rest of my life because even if I meet someone else, I'm pretty certain I won't feel this love/d again, I never have in nearly 50 years, and so why would I? And I wonder if the price to pay isn't worth it, should I go on to the staying board, but what's the point because I've lost her now, because I chose to stick to some stupid boundary.

Probably not what you were hoping to hear, sorry, but I think I said before, I said to myself I would only be honest on here, or what's the point?

I do appreciate your time and concern, and I'm sorry if Im sounding a bit ranty and negative

[once removed]

hey finallyitstime,

its really uncomfortable and unnatural at first when one makes these kinds of changes. standing up for yourself can feel wrong or cruel, or something you need to justify or explain, sometimes even to yourself. surely youve heard of people that have great difficulty in saying "no".

you took a big step. its natural to feel pretty shaky in such steps, but you did it, the step is now behind you, and thats progress. the good news is that it does get easier in time, as confidence builds with each step. none of this is easy, and sometimes we take a step back, or two, and thats okay if it happens, its all part of the process.

you also took a big step in seeing your therapist. any plans to speak with her again?

[khibomsis]

hey F-I-T nobody's here to judge. Have done my share of pyjama sitting in the snow or some version thereof so certainly not me  The person you need to please is yourself. But for sure, the wandering in the FOG is exactly what happens to me too when I set boundaries. That was all I was trying to say, that and the peace that comes on the other side. For everything that takes up space in our lives we are depriving something else of space. Somewhere out there is a beautiful recovering co-dependent woman just looking for somebody to love. You've probably walked past her a million times and  never noticed in the FOG.

That said, I would be very surprised if there is no attempt to contact you in the next week. And I do suspect that you might be more comfortable on the undecided board. Does it have to be so either/or? Could a boundary not be presented as  something like a reward? As in "OK, you can visit me at home when you have demonstrated that you can refrain from dysregulating and upsetting my daughter"? Just asking... .Maybe something to take up with therapist when you see her?

[La Carotte]

Hi guys, thanks for your continued concern, it's helped me enormously these past few days. Your questions make me think and your obvious concern sustains me and makes me feel less isolated.

Unfortunately my first therapy session coincided with her going abroad for a month, but am looking forward to speaking to her again on her return.

I will go and have a look on the Undecided board, but actually, I do feel as though this has to be it, at least for the foreseeable future for several reasons:

We've both got locked into such awful patterns that I don't hold any hope of anything shifting until we've has some time apart, some proper time apart, not just a week or two. We need to do something different.  We both try, we both hope, but we end up back in the awfulness within days, hours, minutes sometimes, and then the horror just piles up and adds to the next times arsenal of insults and blame.

This isn't just her doing it. I find myself increasingly intolerant and unable to accept things that I used to, and increasingly nasty and hurtful. I immediately feel bad afterwards and go into apology/rescue overdrive but I've still done it. I've spoken and behaved in ways I never have in my life, and I don't like it. I don't want to be that person.

A big part of the reason for my change is that, even though I truly believe she's trying, and  I know that she has huge problems, and I want, in theory to support her no matter what, there a big part of me that just thinks I shouldn't have to put up with the constant vile insults that come from her. I know she doesn't really believe them (although at the time she does) becasue nobody would stay with someone they really believed was as awful as she says  I am, I know they're just verbal diarrhoea because she s unable to express herself appropriately, she's admitte as much, I know she's terrified of losing me so has to push me away, I know, I know. But I'm sick of it. It's horrible. And that feeling impairs my ability to do the validation, SET etc, because I don't want to, I want to strike back. Not good.

My daughter will be leaving home in approx six months and I need for her to be able to go and not worry about me any more than is inevitable. She has been so kind and generous and tolerant and understanding of me, ex, and me and ex, but she has come to the end of her tether and now hates ex, (pyjamas in the snow while I was sick was the final straw for her) has lost respect for me for allowing myself to be treated so badly so often and... .has still said she'll accept whatever my choices are because she loves me. So my choice is to protect her from this as much as I can, as I should have for two years, and didn't. I've tried to explain to ex why I need her not to come to my house ar the moment while D18 is there, and she has chosen to see it as being barred at the whim of a spoiled brat teenager who has too much power and who only thinks that ex is a baddy becasue of the lies I've told about her. Not because she's seen her turning up in the middle of the night, or seen me have to unplug the phone, or seen me demented as she phones and texts me 20 times while I'm having dinner with daughter, or seen me not leave my bed because I'm so miserable, or not eat because I'm so anxious, or seen plans change weekly, every single holiday and special occasion ruined, or not ruined, just the lead up to it never knowing if it'll happen or not. Etc. etc. etc.

So, this has to be it. No matter how hard, it just has to be. If I don't hear from her this weekend, and I don't expect to, it will be the first time neither of us has been in touch at a weekend, even given all the many many break ups of the past two years. It will be a big deal. And I do believe it will happen. For my part, Im determined.

[khibomsis]

F-I-T I am humbled by your clarity. Yes, the time to move on is before you start being violent. Been there too. Not a good place.   

Your daughter sounds amazing! You've raised a good child there.

When I read your description of the last two years, the thing that strikes me most is how tiring it must have been. That was one of the things that made me move on, strange but true. I just ran out of energy for the drama. When the negative thoughts threaten to overtake you maybe switch them by doing something that makes you feel relaxed and happy. Are you sure you get enough rest? While drinking and crying is natural for you at this stage, what else do you do to self care? 

[La Carotte]

Khibomsis, that is exactly right. I'm exhausted.

It has been relentless and I'm exhausted, mentally and physically.

I've lost 50lbs in the past year, which in many ways is good as I needed to, but I didn't do it in a healthy way and I am regularly unable to do anything other than go to work (which is a stressful tiring job) and then come home, go to bed and stare into space becasue Im so exhausted.

One of the things that makes me overwhelmed and anxious now is the thought of all the time I'll have on my hands now I'm not fielding constant calls and texts etc... .

In theory I want to spend that time getting myself healthy, both physically and mentally, and I'm sure that I will be able to do that soon. I also use to be creative, and haven't done anything for longer than I can remember, so want to get back to that.

But for now I feel so tired and overwhelmed that all I can do is retreat to safety of my bed. I'mgoing to try and not beat myself up about it as I need some time to recuperate.

This whole idea of self love and self care is very odd to me. I remember one of the first conversations ex and I ever had, when we were just friends, and she talked about the importance of being selfish. I just thought that was awful, just didn't understand how it could be ok to put yourself before others,  and she lent me a book to encourage me to be selfish, practise self care. Ironic that the reason we've ended is that I eventually started practising small acts of self care in relation to her and she just couldn't stand it!

[khibomsis]

well at least she can't say you never listened to her F-I-T Sorry, terrible sense of humour, my friends ban me from making jokes.

Good that you respect your need for rest. Some on this board have been diagnosed with PTSD after BPD relationships, not saying anything about you but just trying to validate your tiredness. Some really cheesy sitcoms, popcorn and icecream will have you feeling better in no time.

I find self love to be the absolute first lesson one has to learn in getting better - and indeed it speaks volumes that it should be something one has to learn. But it is an interesting study. You cannot expect others to love you if you don't love yourself.

[La Carotte]

Oh she always has good advice, khibomsis, one of the things that drives me up the wall is that part of her job is life coaching and training others in restorative practices - go figure! It's why I could never bear it when she insisted we were friends on FB ... .The constant motivational and inspirational things she was doing and saying (often I was part of them but nobody knew that, is was hidden) and the adoration of her fans drove me nuts because it was / is all so fake. Luckily I was blocked on FB every other week, which suited me just fine!

Anyway- I've decided my three watchwords need to be:

Self love

Self respect

Dignity

I've not being doing so great on any of those recently, and that needs to change... .