I would like to try and rebuild a marriage where I have filed for divorce

[Depression = 72% of members]

firstly I would like to say I am not a good negotiator, BPD or otherwise.

I would like to try and rebuild a marriage where I have filed for divorce. At the outset my W. was against the divorce, today (many months later) I have no idea of her state of mind, we cohabit but do not talk.

If nothing happens in a few weeks/months we will be divorced, signed papers are in the system.

How might a pwBPD respond to the pressure of an unwanted divorce? In most negotiations, one tries to avoid a negative outcome, so could the pending divorce open discussions that have always been off-limits before.

Any thoughts most welcome.

[earlgrey]

firstly I would like to say I am not a good negotiator, BPD or otherwise.

I would like to try and rebuild a marriage where I have filed for divorce. At the outset my W. was against the divorce, today (many months later) I have no idea of her state of mind, we cohabit but do not talk.

If nothing happens in a few weeks/months we will be divorced, signed papers are in the system.

How might a pwBPD respond to the pressure of an unwanted divorce? In most negotiations, one tries to avoid a negative outcome, so could the pending divorce open discussions that have always been off-limits before.

Any thoughts most welcome.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[drained1996]

This question is not for judging... .just clarification on what has changed your mind?  Just asking for some background to your thoughts. 

[earlgrey]

Hi Drained - fair question, and I'll be happy to give you what I am thinking because I am thinking only rocks (divorce) and hard places (living in chaos) at the moment.

Basically I wanted a divorce because I am married to pwuBPD and I got to the end of my ability to absorb non-stop cr@p. All pretty standard stuff for the territory. I went through the process of requesting divorce and my W. would plee not to; I would listen. We would recycle, not that I wanted to, but I didn't have the strenght to follow my own will.

I worked through all that and finally got to the point of saying I want divorce and stuck with it. We are on our way now. (That was in august - we cohabit in plenty of space and barely talk).

I am a hands on dad and love it and D7. We did xmas just the 2 of us with my family (W, M of D7, did her own thing).

The thing I am having trouble with is being a single dad again, did it with S now 19. I know what it entails.

Living in the chaos was not good for me I know that's why I wanted out, but the next 10 odd years of single dad stuff hits me hard. I'm not sure I'm up for it. I'm nearly 60 and the idea of rebuliding a 'NEW' family unit is probably pretty far fetched - not impossible but unlikely.

I think of nannies and help to make things smoother. I also think of finding a way (this is where I am now) to finding some kind of workable solution with my W.

And one thing that never happened during our attempts at fixing things was to get beyond blame and anger and try and understand our needs. I have to say she was never one to share her thoughts or emotions and so our exchanges were hopelessly ineffective at getting to the bottom of any issues. I probably was not much better. I would get sidetracked and blamed, then get triggered and so the sum our our constructive dialogue was ZERO.

Today, having spend 5 months in another part of the house, I am more serene, and feel I would like to start  from a very new starting place and attempt to build on some constructive dialogue.

It is not knee-jerk I miss you want sex approach, if anything it is quite detatched and pragmatic. Build a reasonably functional family unit.

My concern, will I just end up back in chaosville. I am not going to get a sweetie-pie I'm sure, but maybe there's a way to lessen the black moods and put-downs, to an extent that our family could get along.

(constructive dialogue never has happened, but also W. has never been faced with consequence of divorce, and my thoughts go to is this - the divorce - an enabler of dialogue, or just a great way to play victim?)

I realise these are my choices to make, but any perspectives and experiences I'd be happy to hear.

Thanks EG

[drained1996]

Well... .you surely gave a well thought out answer.  Improving is possible if both parties are willing to work on things.  Do you think she would be open to counseling on the premise it was to work on you all and your communication/relationship?  No need to force a diagnosis on her FYI... .that would probably go sideways. 
Have you taken some time to read through the tools and lessons in the upper right margin of this page?  They are there to help guide you in things that YOU can do to better navigate through things and improve how you react to and communicate with her. 
I'd also suggest checking out our book reviews and find several that would fit your situation that look helpful to give you more insight if indeed you decide to continue forward.  We are here for your support either way.  Keep us up to date! 

[earlgrey]

Thanks drained, I am really needing to blurt and rant at the moment, and some feedback really helps.

I have read a lot, and have got bogged down in her uB/NPD. But as you say (rightly in my opinion) we need to work on communication rather than any kind of diagnosis.

Our communication has been non existant, neither of us is much good! 

A book that recently inspired me was Attached by Levine/Heller. Their easy to grasp take on the avoidant (W.) and the anxious (me).

(I digress here but it would seem attachment issues,  BPD, and Narcissism all can have similar symptoms.)

Anyhow, what I picked up on was that expressing your needs was GOOD. My needs have been ridiculed and ignored, but I do not believe I have yet been able to get my case heard and that is what I really want to do.

Can I get my W. to listen! Maybe if I learn how to put my case non threateningly. Yes it will be a task, but maybe that is a small price.

I also just read a couple of pages from Hendrix... getting the Love etc, and that made me smile. He was trying to get a couple to talk to each other and listen to each other, and boy did he struggle.

I am thinking that DSM and cluster Bs are all very well, but listening to and (wanting) to understand your partner are so so so essential, and i think I have overlooked them.

[drained1996]

For me, a complete understanding of the illness and it's nuances was a big help.  It helped to know when I was dealing with a child.  In BPD's their emotional development becomes disordered at some time early in their life, and their ability to feel and deal like an adult emotionally is simply not there.  When I could see this as the crux of an issue at hand, it helped me to detach in the moment a bit, and use the techniques from here and therapy to end the conflict/incident.  The good part of that was, when I would recognize a dysregulation moment/incident, it affected me less as I could label it in my head for what it was... .the illness.  Getting to see the signs of a possible impending issue did give me the ability to use what I had learned to better navigate around, through, or completely away from the possible problem.  It takes a good amount of practice and patience so don't expect life to turn around immediately.  
Just my own opinion... .if you begin with focusing on getting your needs across at the beginning... .things will be tough.  I'd suggest starting with working on simple communication... .baby steps.  
Having a therapist guide me was very helpful in my own process.  Have you thought about the possibility of therapy... .either for yourself or the two of you?  

[Meili]

I agree with drained, starting with trying to get her to see your side of things and listen to what your needs are is a hard place to start. You would probably be better off learning to use the communication tools.

Based on what you've written here, I wonder if you have a tendency to JADE rather than Listen with Empathy?

[earlgrey]

Hi Meili - yes I can recognise JADE, all the way through! And it absolutely get me/us nowhere.

(are all the JADES SETS etc solutions for enabling positive exchanges with pwBPD? Because if that is the case and I am serious in my endeavours, I am going to have to do some work. In fact it way well answer my initial question... .the weight/threat of divorce, does it act as an enabler of dialogue, and my guess is that it does not.)

To help me adjust my approach, what bit of my text gave you the JADE prompt?

Drained & Meili ... .Also useful to learn that you think that getting ones needs met is chapter 22, when I'm still on page 1 of the prologue! Which is healthy realism and reminds me why I am where I am... .on my way to divorce.

Yes I struggled for any kind of sense in my r/s and yet here I am thinking I want to take it on again. If we had a good hand holding therapist (so far that's proven elusive) and should W. be so inclined to get on board, therapy that is (never was the case before) we might have a chance, but unaided I think this all might be real challenge.

Certainly when you say even basic tasks of constructive dialogue need to be made in a certain format (which seem to be counter-intuitive) I get the measure.

But maybe if I am serious in my wish to bring the family together and my wish is shared, I will have to set about it in a very mindful way.

This might sound facetious but it is not. There is not much on my bucket list, maybe I should put learning to build a life with a pwBPD on it.

[drained1996]

To help me adjust my approach, what bit of my text gave you the JADE prompt?

It's almost natural human reaction to JADE when in an escalated discussion... .especially if that someone is a loved one.  So don't feel bad... .99% of humans probably do that!

But maybe if I am serious in my wish to bring the family together and my wish is shared, I will have to set about it in a very mindful way.

No doubt you will have to be very mindful.  You will be in charge of how things progress by remaining calm and using the new techniques of communication and setting boundaries.  The good news on that is, over time, it becomes easier... .the more you practice something the better you get... .and it becomes natural as opposed to forced.

A thing I note that is a positive already, is that you can co-habitat... .even if you don't speak.  A lot of us couldn't even do that!  That said, you have a perfect opportunity to study up on communication techniques some and test the waters.  Aim small miss small to take a line from a movie. 

[earlgrey]

I like (can't find a better word) the direction this thread has taken.

My question is what to expect if one does take on the 'responsibility' of staying with and making something of a r/s with a pwBPD.

I have dealt with denied depression, jelousy of my and our children, 24/7 hostility... .etc.

Now if I go back in in a 'mindful' way, will I get more of the same, or with practice and patience and the right approach can the state of the pwBPD be improved from time to time.

I guess the question is if I decide to make these 'efforts', what can one expect? Anyone been there?

While they are happy to blame us nons for everything, can we 'play the game' (I am not being cynical) is alter our interaction, to improve the quality of everyday life?

[Meili]

(are all the JADES SETS etc solutions for enabling positive exchanges with pwBPD?

Not just with pwBPD! The communication tools we talk about around here are beneficial to all relationships! They are very useful in defusing potentially emotionally explosive situations.

In fact it way well answer my initial question... .the weight/threat of divorce, does it act as an enabler of dialogue, and my guess is that it does not.)

That can really depend on the individual. For some, the thought of divorce can trigger abandonment fears. This can either work for or against you; again it depends on the individual. Either the pwBPD will split you black and push you so far away that it is nearly impossible to touch them (emotionally), or they will try to pull you closer. There's no real way for us to know how she'll ultimately respond.

To help me adjust my approach, what bit of my text gave you the JADE prompt?

Things like this:

And one thing that never happened during our attempts at fixing things was to get beyond blame and anger and try and understand our needs. I have to say she was never one to share her thoughts or emotions and so our exchanges were hopelessly ineffective at getting to the bottom of any issues. I probably was not much better. I would get sidetracked and blamed, then get triggered and so the sum our our constructive dialogue was ZERO.

Certainly when you say even basic tasks of constructive dialogue need to be made in a certain format (which seem to be counter-intuitive) I get the measure.

Yes, most of this is counter-intuitive!

My question is what to expect if one does take on the 'responsibility' of staying with and making something of a r/s with a pwBPD.

You can expect to take on almost, if not all, of the responsibility of being the emotionally mature partner. A pwBPD can mature emotionally, but it takes years of work and therapy.

Now if I go back in in a 'mindful' way, will I get more of the same, or with practice and patience and the right approach can the state of the pwBPD be improved from time to time.

You cannot "fix" her, but you can change the dynamics between the two of you. It's a place to start, but she'll have to commit to working on herself to make the situation sustainable.

I guess the question is if I decide to make these 'efforts', what can one expect? Anyone been there?

We've all been there!  But, I think what you're asking is if anyone has been successful. That answer depends on your definition of success. I was successful in resurrecting a relationship with my uBPDexgf, until such a time as I decided that wasn't the relationship that I wanted any longer and walked away. There are others on these boards that have been successful in maintaining a healthy relationship. There's a thread of "success stories" on the Improving board.

I will also note that using the tools that I have learned here, I have developed an interesting relationship with my exwife after 10 years who I thought would never speak to me again.

While they are happy to blame us nons for everything, can we 'play the game' (I am not being cynical) is alter our interaction, to improve the quality of everyday life?

Yep, you can, for a period of time at least. No matter what happens in the relationship, learning to focus on and take care of your own needs and communicate better will improve your life drastically.

[earlgrey]

meili
but she'll have to commit to working on herself to make the situation sustainable

Now this is possibly the first phrase in this whole thread which looks like a deal breaker.

Working on yourself starts at a place where there is recognition that something needs working on!

And going by my understanding of my W. and her world, she is blamelessly perfect.

(I have always been the dirty toad to her white dove as in the french expression "the slime of the toad will never soil the white dove".)

So how does one explain that in fact her feathers do have a bit of slobber on them? And a trip to the bird bath is in order?

[drained1996]

How about this?

"I was just thinking that maybe we could find a way to work on us.  (add in whatever kind of line you can use to validate her... .though don't embellish or lie... .leave it out if you cannot think of anything good)  I think we can both admit that we have problems communicating with each other.  Would you be willing to go to counseling with me so we can both learn to better how we react to and communicate with each other?"

Someone else may shoot that idea down... .but that's close to the way I put it in my own relationship.  
Telling her she is ill or messed up is not the answer.  Lead her to help with something she may actually grasp on to... .then allow the therapist to guide from there.

[Meili]

It doesn't have to be a deal breaker unless you want it to be.

So how does one explain that in fact her feathers do have a bit of slobber on them? And a trip to the bird bath is in order?

The short answer is that you don't!

Like drained said, telling her will get you no where. But, you may be able to get her to work with you on repairing things. This can lead to her getting her own counseling.

By ending the conflict cycle, you may be able to get her to lower her guard a bit and start to address her actual emotions with you. This can lead to profound discoveries and maybe she'll decide that she needs counseling all on her own. Or, again as drained suggested, perhaps starting with couples'/family counseling, she will find her way there.

Leading by example can be very helpful here - starting with ending the conflict cycle and continuing all the way through better communication and counseling.

[earlgrey]

If I do head back into this r/s, I guess my stance will be to expect nothing. There will be a lot of give and not a lot of take.

That will be a conscious decision. But not a happy one given my memory of the following.

Early days when I was beginning to feel something was not right with our marriage, I said something along the lines of I was expecting more than I was actually getting from this marriage.

To which the very lucid but curt reply was, if you don't expect much you won't be disappointed.

Poleaxed.

Is it staged... .does she know what is going on?

[earlgrey]

By ending the conflict cycle, you may be able to get her to lower her guard a bit and start to address her actual emotions with you.

This I understand and find very encouraging, and I suppose is THE upside to any attempts to improve things.

I am sure in my own way of defending myself from her attacks I have simple managed to escalate the (non) issues.

Actually she has told me on occasion what she requires, and as I have not obliged... .bingo. 

[Meili]

My stance is that expectations are bad, they lead to heartache and pain. This applies to pwBPD and every other situation. Expecting your favorite team to win, expecting to get a promotion at work, expecting to be given a Porsche for your 18th birthday (I have a story about that one   ), and expecting to be abducted by aliens when the Moon is full... .all are easy examples of this concept.

Hope... .it's different from expectations. You can hope to be abducted, but if it doesn't happen, life goes on. See the difference?

I'm not sure about the "a lot of give and not a lot of take" comment. Can you elaborate on that before we respond? I think that I know what you're saying, but I don't want to make an incorrect presumption.

Not THE, but one.  There will be several upsides when you step out of the fog and start to see things more clearly.

Don't you just love those  moments? Yeah, defending ourselves tends to escalate things. Basically, we are telling our partners that they are wrong. That translates into shame ("Why would anyone love me? I never do anything right" types of thoughts), and they attack in return.

[formflier]

EarlGrey,

We can help with the negotiations and strategy.

Let's assume she is pissed... .and asks "what's in it for me"... .what if you try to divorce me again... or other things like that.

Then... .you offer to "give her" a post-nuptial agreement to "protect her". 

In reality, it will have same terms as your divorce (I'm assuming you are satisfied with terms).

Before EVER mentioning this... .if it gets to that.  Call your L and see if a postnuptial is legal in your state... .and what can and can't be in them.

You have a lot to think through.  I totally understand the want for more stability and less craziness.

FF

[earlgrey]

There will be a lot of give and not a lot of take.

I was thinking of this

= Meili
You can expect to take on almost, if not all, of the responsibility of being the emotionally mature partner.

In preparation for what to expect, I am expecting to 'give' and not expecting to receive (take). Like looking after my D7.

I see this as taking the form of putting W first*. But keeping boundaries firmly in place.

I think she will be extremely cautious and lacking trust. All I can do is go very slow and let her time her time.

At this point I am thinking there is no point adding discussion, rules, conditions. I am just thinking of taking divorce off the table, and if she can agree let us just see how things go. We can keep physically separate as we are, until we begin to let barriers down. She can decide she prefers the settlement and to move on (it is agreed and signed).

Just thinking out loud.

FF - "what's in it for me", good question. To use a fisherman's expression I am good catch  . Our material lifestyle was sorted, she knows that and she doesn't have to work if we are together. Divorce means back to small flat and full time work. It is not the basis of our "discussion" but it is part of what exists.

* reading over this might need some discussion/review. She has a lot of narc. tendencies which are very needy!

[Meili]

OK, that's about what I thought that you were getting at, thank you for clarifying.

My opinion is that you don't have to, and probably shouldn't, give as much as you're thinking. Her needs should not come before yours. You are both in the relationship.

Defining and maintaining healthy boundaries is a great (and necessary) idea! Those boundaries need not come in the form of rules, conditions, or ultimatums. In fact, any attempt at those will probably work against you. Boundaries are for us... .they are designed to keep us healthy, safe, and sane. No one else needs to know about them until they are at risk of being crossed. There is no sense in borrowing trouble after all. Here is a good primer on SETTING BOUNDARIES.

[earlgrey]

euro zone bed-time here.

Many thanks for all your help, a lot to digest, but my ideas are much less fuzzy than they were.

Good night

[drained1996]

Just to add clarification to what Meili was saying about boundaries.  No need to verbally communicate them at all... .no need to draw a line in the sand and say don't cross this.  That's what the communication techniques are for, the conflict ending techniques etc.  when things get close or push your boundaries, you use them to dilute, redirect, or exit the situation.  She'll not see the line... .but you didn't let her cross it.  Eventually... .she'll just feel the invisible line you never really said out loud and not push against it. 

[earlgrey]

some overnight thoughts.

FF mentioned a seed (of an idea - starting over) to be planted, ostensibly with my W. Must have dropped a few in my own back yard because the idea here is taking hold.

Expectations - you go into a bar your expect to find beer, to a restaurant food, I expected to find love in a marriage. Yes I was disturbed not to find it.

Boundaries, yes to be worked on, no need to flag them up, I get that . But in the most simplest form, how do you respond to gratuitous (at least on the face of it) verbal put-downs/aggression. There is probably a worshop (pointers pls).

I would often just leave the area, you behave like that i will leave. But when you meet in the kitchen over coffee, and a simple question gets, out of nowhere, the eye roll and the deep sighs I have to admit that gets me, and I still feel prone to not being able to avoid a flare up. What technique allows you to absorb cr@p and not flip, are we all blessed with such abilities?

[formflier]

Perhaps a better way to think of it yourself is that you are communicating "values"... .vice boundaries.

A boundary is something you do or have to "protect" your values.

Your wife doesn't need to know about the boundary or the "how"... .it is MUCH more important that she "experience" a boundary and/or boundary enforcement.

When that matches up with a value that has been clearly and succinctly communicated, you have something that will "make sense" to a pwBPD.  Very different than them liking it.  It is possible they will "respect" it.

Once they respect it... .call it victory and move on.

For instance your boundary might be that you "don't do yelling" with boundary enforcement being that you walk away.  You know and have thought this through in your head.  Do not explain this to your pwBPD.

Your "value" could be something positive "I will communicate and be communicated to in a respectful manner"

That I would be comfortable saying to my pwBPD in a friendly manner.  It's powerful... .yet doesn't draw a line in the sand.

Make sense?  Thoughts?

Earlgrey,

What boundaries would you want to have, if you were to stay with your wife and not get divorced?

FF

[earlgrey]

the issue that was core in my decision to divorce was verbal abuse. (This covers all aspects of communication where I was treated with disrespect and portrayed as stupid, annoying, irrelevant, insignificant.)

Over time I tried varied responses. For example... .

Yes i would get triggered and flip. JADE.

I would say I do not like to be talked to that way. That would result in part II of the attack and then I would be deemed overly sensitive, taking things personally etc etc.

I would calmly walk away.

I assume walking away is a good answer, laying down a boundary. However, if the purpose of boundaries is to protect oneself, and to allow the other to see they have overstepped the mark, then I have to say, I may well have protected myself from the flack, but I have seen no acknowledgement of the infringement or lessening or change in the verbal attacks. Walking away does not seem to provoke any kind of change process with my w. In fact it is seen as cowardly.

[Meili]

Expectations - you go into a bar your expect to find beer, to a restaurant food, I expected to find love in a marriage. Yes I was disturbed not to find it.

When you go to a bar or restaurant, "expect" to find the tangible things that are continuously being advertised. The only reason that you expect those things is because they are continuously being promised to you. If a bar suddenly became a bakery, you would no longer expect beer to be there.

The problem with expectations still holds true. A bar may sell beer, but not the kind of beer that the patron is wanting. When you go there, you hope they have the kind of beer that you are after. If they don't, you can choose to accept what they have or go somewhere else. If you go there expecting them to have the beer that you want, you will find yourself upset that they don't. It's still a matter of hoping vs. expecting.

Love is a completely different beast. It's not a tangible thing, it is an emotion and emotions changed continuously based on stimuli. It's what a person feels, not something that they can advertise and put on the market for sale.

Expecting another person to feel as you feel based on the stimuli that you experience is not fair to the other person. That person is experiencing different stimuli after all.

But in the most simplest form, how do you respond to gratuitous (at least on the face of it) verbal put-downs/aggression.

One of the best things to do here is learn about BPD. You'll find that much of the aggression is projection. It isn't really about you, it's about them and what they are experiencing. When that realization is solidified, it's a lot easier to not take the put-downs personally.

It also helps to remember that even if she calls you a coward, you are not a coward. Her thoughts need not be yours. She does not get to control how you think unless you let her. Make sense?

[earlgrey]

It isn't really about you, it's about them and what they are experiencing. When that realization is solidified, it's a lot easier to not take the put-downs personally.

Yes I can understand that, but still some way from being able to apply it.

It also helps to remember that even if she calls you a coward, you are not a coward. Her thoughts need not be yours. She does not get to control how you think unless you let her. Make sense?

Again yes this makes sense. But in the whole boundary business (as I understand it) we are trying to get the boundary buster to respect our values. If in attempting to do that the only message they are going away with is "my husband's nothing but a coward" (even if, as you point out I don't agree) then the exercise seems to me to have had no constructive conclusion.

Maybe I'm missing something but for now the boundary buster is riding roughshod and the 'sherif' has run to the john!

[Meili]

Is it possible that she calls you a coward because she knows it will get a reaction out of you? What do you think would happen if you didn't react as she expected?

I ask because there is a theory that people play one of three roles in pathological conflict (the theory is called the Karpman Drama Triangle). It sounds like she moves from victim to persecutor when you try to stop taking part so as to keep you engaged.

Does that seem to fit?

[earlgrey]

Hey Meili. Our conversation takes me back a bit to a time before divorce materialised. I knew things were difficult and I started looking at ways to makes things better - dialoque techniques and tools.

Maybe some of us are better equipped to learn and use these tools than others. Home alone learning this stuff and I lose the will to live.  

I do find it very challenging. I get the overall dynamics, Karpman for example, but bringing about any glimmer of change has always escaped me... .yet here I am wanting to test the waters again.

But my premise to this thread was to attempt to hold the family together, not rediscover the honeymoon. My fear is though that in getting back in (assuming W. is for) I find I do not have the skills, patience, ability to manage a life with a pwBPD. My attempts before lead to wanting a divorce, what skills do i posess now that will allow me to cope in ways I could not before.

Is motivation enough, wanting to be with D7, or do I need to look at more spiritual things, is Radical Acceptance an embraced idea?

Yes this is a difficult time for me, and I am so happy to have your and others' support.

[Meili]

Oh, man, I totally relate to the wondering if I'd have the patience, be able to learn the skills, etc. I strongly suspect that many of us have wondered those very things.

It was really stressful for me when I would get caught off guard and revert back to old habits and all something small to escalate into something more. Some very nice and supportive people here reminded me that I'm only human, I will make mistakes, and that I can learn to use those mistakes as a tool for learning what not to do the next time. It's not linear by any means. Some days, it's even circuitous!

We all find our motivation from different places. Sometimes, what was once a motivator is not and we have to look elsewhere. A mere glimmer of hope can be motivational one day, but it may take something more grandiose the next.

I do think that some are better equipped to learn this stuff than others. I can point you to members here who are far more empathetic than I am (you can see it in their posts). Where I struggle to understand how another may be feeling, they seem to be able to easily empathize with others. We are all different though. I may possess other abilities that come easily to me with which they struggle. At the end of day, we are all capable of learning the skills though.

Testing the skills here is a good idea. Reading the posts of others and responding allows you to practice. We can also practice the skills in the non-virtual world with our friends, family, customers/clients at work, etc.

I have been talking to my exwife (not the woman that brought me here), with whom I haven't spoken to in 10 years, and we were discussing her emotional problems. She made a comment about my attempts to empathize with her. She said that she knew that I was sincere, but they seem fake and rigid. It was good feedback.